I have HAD IT!!!! (A get-things-off-my-chest rant)

[smudge]

DD is 8 and is halfway thru 2nd grade. I pulled her from PS at the end of last school year due to her ADHD diagnosis. She is currently unmedicated, DH didn't want her medicated because of the "stigma". Well honey, here's a stigma- wife in the loony bin!

I am about to lose it. DD8 is so distracted she can't even concentrate long enough to get the answer on the page after working the problem. DH thinks she has a math phobia and needs a therapist, I think her brain just isn't wired up for math and she needs a tutor who specializes in LD. We are still struggling with basic math facts. She has a hard time doing Xtramath because the time pressure makes her freak out. This was also documented in the testing she had done- very difficult for her to do things with a time limit. We have an appt on Wed with the Psych, I will be asking for drugs- even if its just heavy sedation for myself!

And to make matters worse, I work 4 days a week in the afternoon, and my job is going through a lot of changes right now and I am at the end of my rope, all DH can do is tell me I am schooling all wrong. Somebody stop the carousel, I want off! :(

 

Sad thing is, DD8 is pretty smart and can read on a couple grade levels ahead, but the numbers escape her.

[mom2bee]

:grouphug: . Hang in there Smudge, Homeschooling is a Carousel but it should slow and allow people on and off as needed.

 

If she has issues with time-limits, drop Xtramath and anything else that is inherently timed. There is a book that I recommend a lot: How to Get Your Child Off the Refridgarator and on to Learning by a mom whose son had ADHD. I would take a more active approach to mathematics and try to keep seat-work to a minimum. There is nothing wrong with taking a break when you need to readjust! Take a week if you need one Mama! Take a week and read some books and find some books on math games like the one by Peggy Kaye.

Workbooks may not work for your kid until you can all find a way to cope with her diagnoes.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

[Angie in VA]

I love the carousel comment above. Well said. All of it.

 

I'd add physical activity. I know a mom who had her dd do math orally while she (the dd) flipped cartwheels. While we don't deal w/ ADHD here, I find ds has always gotten more done in less time w/ greater concentration and accuracy after getting some good, hard physical playing in. Works wonders. 

 

 

 

 

[Lori D.]

I think her brain just isn't wired up for math and she needs a tutor who specializes in LD. We are still struggling with basic math facts. She has a hard time doing Xtramath because the time pressure makes her freak out. This was also documented in the testing she had done- very difficult for her to do things with a time limit

 

...DD8 is pretty smart and can read on a couple grade levels ahead, but the numbers escape her.

 

This sounds VERY much like our DS when he was that age -- inability to grasp the abstract concepts of math without concrete visuals and manipulatives, and melt-downs with ANY timed tests. Math facts took years for him to "get" -- it was a combination of learning skip count songs, Schoolhouse Rock: Math songs, the very visual Times Tales method, and triangle flashcards (reduces math fact memorization by 75% because each triangle card shows a "math family" with connections to 4 math facts on one triangle card).

 

The combination of DS's math sections of the brain finally starting to begin to develop a bit at age 10, plus that is the year we stumbled across Math-U-See (very visual, with manipulatives to tangible SHOW every abstract math concept), that we finally started to see progress for DS.

 

I pulled her from PS at the end of last school year due to her ADHD diagnosis. She is currently unmedicated, DH didn't want her medicated because of the "stigma".

 

There is no stigma or shame in lacking a brain chemical that creates the ADD/ADHD symptoms and needing a med, or other helps, to replace it or mediate -- any more than there is stigma or shame in lacking the ability to process sugar and needing a special diabetic diet, and the medication of insulin... There are many people on this board with students who are greatly helped by small doses of meds to help them focus and concentrate. Many only need it for a short while to get over the hump of the elementary years, and then their brains start to mature and the students are able to develop coping skills.

 

 

One suggestion, if you feel you have the time and patience to try it before going the meds route: Have you looked into some dietary restrictions and nutritional supplements to see if that might give DD a boost in concentration? Remove all dyes, sugar, processed foods, etc. Also consider removing dairy, gluten, and corn to see if DD has a hidden intolerance that is a cause or a contributor to the ADHD symptoms. Try adding in some natural supplements, such as fish oil and evening primrose oil. Dianne Craft's website has some helpful starting point articles:

Natural Remedies for ADD

Essential Fatty Acids & the Brain

Fish Oil as Healing Brain Food

Hidden Allergies & Learning

 

Also, once you received the diagnosis, you probably have also been doing some research and understand that it is a lack of stimulating brain chemical that those struggling with ADD/ADHD lack, and so they "self stimulate" to kick-start their brains through verbal (constant chatter/need for sound input and output), tactile (constant touch/rub and need to feel textures), and/or kinetic means (constant need to move).

 

Sometimes these students are greatly helped by having instrumental music playing in the background. Others are helped by having tactile fidgets and chewies to rub, touch, twiddle with, or chew on while they work to help replace that missing brain stimulation chemical. Others are helped by sitting on a yoga ball that allows them movement, or standing at the kitchen counter so they can move and jig about to help focus while doing mentally challenging activities that require heavy focus -- like math.

 

There have been other past threads in which people have used tactile sitting discs, or sensory ruler, or all kids of "fidgets" to help with brain concentration.

 

With our DS, we were able to ride it out with a lot of these above suggestions, which helped bring his symptoms to a manageable amount. And on a few really extremely distracted mornings, I would give him half a cup of coffee (caffeine reacts much like a mild dose of ritalin), to help him focus.

 

 

DH thinks she has a math phobia and needs a therapist, I think her brain just isn't wired up for math and she needs a tutor who specializes in LD. 

 

 

Sounds like you and DH would benefit from getting some outside help from someone who specifically deals with ADD/ADHD, and math, to help give you some methods of approach to help in the math instruction, and in homeschooling with an LD in general. And, to help you both get on the same page of how to go about addressing DD's special need.

 

The more you understand exactly what DD's specific struggles are, the easier it becomes to find materials that are a better match, and to tailor your teaching to how she can best intake it and really learn. And, much as you will hate to hear it again -- patience! You are RIGHT at the peak time of frustration. Even with special helps and implementing diet and natural aids, ADD/ADHD children do not start to "turn the corner" until about age 10-12yo, or even till about 14yo.

 

If you find that the natural remedies and implementing specific materials/ways of teaching does not help enough (but give it a good 6 month trial before deciding), you may want to revisit the idea of a medication.

 

Wishing you the BEST of luck as you and DH work through what is the best solution for your DD and that best works with your work and home situation! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Soror]

First (hugs). Second, deep breath!

 

Did her testing show any other issues or is it just ADHD? Does she just need more practice or is there a math disability? 

 

My son is ADHD as well, and does not do timed tests well, I do not do anything timed with him at all. I had already cut it back as I knew it didn't work well for him but after testing I flat out cut it all out. There are many ways to practice math facts. What are her strengths? How does she best learn and what does she like? Also, I know the NP was sure to point out to me that I should expect him to about 30% behind in executive function and I shouldn't expect him to be working independently. I'm not sure if your trying to leave her to do it on her own but this would lead to failure at my house. I would expect that you will pretty much be there the whole time working with her. Do this with a good attitude, make sure that it isn't seen as a positive, it is easy for kids to sense that they are not doing well and that just starts a horrible cycle.

 

I started a thread specifically about math and approaching it different ways, maybe you'll find it helpful. I have links for games, fun supplements, activities and different curriculum. (I started it after we got into a math funk ourselves- things are going great again, we changed things up and are really enjoying math again and making progress)

 

 

Some different misc things that have worked for us:

- lots of work orally, on the whiteboard and together- no drill and kill- little worksheets

- fun games played together to practice facts

- programs that work the conceptual more, as conceptual is his strong suite, so his slowness w/ facts doesn't slow him from delving deeper into those parts of math that he really shines at- and really facts are just a very small part- important yes, but there is so much more to math

-using narrative sources- Beast Academy was an immediate hit due to the narrative nature- there are tons of living math books out there as well

[cbollin]

Here's a resource that might have some tips for math fact recall that is popular among 'special needs homeschooling groups" in my area

 

http://www.littlegiantsteps.com/blog/category/math-in-minutes-rapid-recall/

 

Agreeing that the book about off the fridge is a good one....   Her website for tips, etc..

http://www.sizzlebop.com/

 

a less well known but wonderful resource is: Melinda Boring's site....

http://www.headsupnow.com/

 

Either way if you homeschool or group school, many of the things on those sites may have some insights to help with life at home.

[Guest]

I highly suggest Rod and Staff math.  I see you are using MM, and it just doesn't click for some childrens brains.  R&S has been a miracle for my dd that struggled in math for years.  Also look into helping her ADHD with diet.  My ds has to eat a low sugar, grain free, low phenol diet, and he is a completely different child if he gets off his diet.  It has been a life savor for us.  In addition to diet I would look into a good probiotic to restore gut health, and supplementing with magnesium, fermented cod liver oil, and GABA, which is calming.

[Soror]

Speaking of alternatives gf was huge for us here, we did Feingold before as well but I think GF is the big one for us. We're doing pyconogel, d3, magnesium and omega 3 supplements as well. I do feel the supplements have helped but I've also tweaked how we do things since receiving our official diagnosis. I should say I tweaked it more, we were already fairly unconventional at times but getting the diagnosis has spurred me further out of the box, without any regrets.

 

One more thought, and I could be reading into your post here but I would talk to her about her struggles as well. Get her input about what she likes and what she thinks is working and let her know you guys are working together to figure out how to best teach her, this I think is one of the most important pieces!

[LLMom]

So sorry.  :grouphug:  Learning struggles/differences can be maddening. I was very reluctant to medicate my oldest son when he was diagnosed with ADHD for the reasons your husband is concerned.  But I finally found my son was not making progress so I gave in.  It did help. 

[rmtzc2009]

Hugs to you!  I would discontinue using anything timed.  We had to drop Xtramath because the stress of being timed had my 10y son in tears daily.  We went through 4 meds over a period of several years and all had side effects that we could deal with.  So not by choice but he is medication free :-\  What has helped (as in us and other people do notice an improvement in his behavior) is going gluten free, minimal dairy, minimal processed foods, no dyes.  Also no screen time during the week -not even in the evenings.  He takes Barleans Fish Oil, a multi-vit., and a probiotic.  

 

My hubby AND I went in for our final review after your Youngest (4) had his official Psych evaluation and it was very helpful for us both to hear how his brain is working differently and her ideas of what we could do to make things better.  If you haven't had a Neuropsych eval. yet I would suggest it.  We learned a lot and are applying those things to our 10 yr old also with ADHD.  

 

Best of Luck!

[redsquirrel]

What stigma of meds? Who is going to know beyond your family? Does he feel judgmental of diabetics or people whose brains don't make enough serotonin?

 

I think kids face a bigger stigma when they can't function like their typical peers. ADD Adults are sure stigmatized when they can't function on a job or in college. ADD doesn't stop just because she becomes an adult. Now is the time to help her learn how to manage it. It's only going to get harder for her.

 

best of luck to you.

[SKL]

I'd stay away from timed stuff.  My 2nd grade daughter with challenges does a combination of very straightforward workbook pages each day, as well as daily word problems and her regular curriculum (at school - Singapore).  She is working through a Kumon workbook and some Flash Kids workbooks, which offer gentle practice that builds confidence.  At school, she tends to be the last kid to finish tests, but I am not worried about that right now.

 

Good luck - I hope your vent made you feel better!

[Another Lynn]

:grouphug:   I'm sorry.  You are not crazy.  If your dh doesn't want to you to deal with your dd's adhd in a positive way, yet he criticizes how you are educating her, then something has to give somewhere.  He can't tie your hands behind your back and expect you to win the fight!  I'm not experienced with adhd, so I'll defer to others' advice about what to do to help.  (If I had no other options, I would at least see if caffeine helps, but again, I have no personal experience to offer).  As far as math goes, I do have one who struggles a bit with math.  I agree with putting timed math (xtramath), totally aside.  When my dd did speed drills in CLE (Christian Light Education), I either did not time her, or else I timed her and wrote down her time, never caring if it exceeded the proposed limit.  I liked CLE for her because it was spiral and I felt seeing the same concepts and problems over and over again was helpful to her.  I switched her to Saxon this year to get her used to writing down problems instead of using a workbook.  She did really well for the first third of the book or more.  We're nearly half-way through and just decided to start working together with a white board for most of the problems.  It helps keep her on track to work together, and goes much faster on the white board.  (i.e. what takes 30 minutes together was taking her almost 2 hours alone!).  The one time I tried MM, years ago, the cluttered page alone was enough to make her cry.  Even my mathier kids were turned off by the appearance of a page of MM! 

[Tanikit]

My DD has not been officially diagnosed as ADHD - she is very busy and easily distracted and yet is performing at an academic level well beyond her age. She is also a hands on learner. We have done a few things that have helped:

 

1. Very short sitting sessions - I teach my two children and alternate doing only a few minutes with each at a time even though the younger is capable of far longer stretches of concentration.

2. Physical activity - my DD6 does better when she can move around between sessions - even if it means playing in the mud outside (sigh - this will drive me mad)

3. Changing my childs diet - I took away both gluten and dairy and there is a big difference in my child's ability to be still (she kicks less and falls over less and can even hold a book and read without me keeping her place for her most of the time) This has been huge trial and error and I can see the minute the stuff gets back into her diet as for a few days after it she is wild as can be. Processed foods can have a similar effect - especially certain colorants - I am still trying to find out what she does and does not react to.

4. I do nothing timed with my child - there is no reason to do so - she either knows her math facts or she doesn't - adding the stress of having to write fast is just pointless at this age.

 

Here are some more ideas that I have heard people use but have not needed to try for other reasons:

1. Use a very heavy chair so the child cannot rock.

2. Have a very scheduled routine including snacks so that your child cannot keep getting up and down for excuses - you should make plenty of exercise breaks, but not just drive your mother mad breaks.

3. Follow some rabbit trails - allowing your child to get distracted every once in a while as long as it is still educational should be ok once in a while.

4. Include lots of hands on activities and ones that use physical exercise to teach if possible.

 

Hope you can get it sorted. It particularly hard in a first year as so many people have ideas of how it should look - you need to find what works for you and your child and this is seldom perfectly (or even near perfectly) attained in your first year of homeschooling.

[cintinative]

I have no idea if my six year old is ADD or not but I know he hates being timed! I agree about dropping the timed Xtra Math. My ds hated it and never improved. Finally I went to just straight flash cards and that went better. He did get a bit bored again so we started doing them in silly talk. I know that's weird but somehow it helps him focus and enjoy it.  I can't really comment on the rest, except to say I have certainly had days when I wanted to quit also. Hang in there!

[Elisabet1]

She needs math for her. Try something that is in a story form. If she loves reading, use reading for math. Look for stories related to math...or living math type things. I know I have stories for math facts. I only used it for my child who liked reading more than math facts. That child also picked Math of Fred instead of what I used for my others.

 

I suspect the ADHD DX is wrong. Kids with ADHD usually do not like to read. Math tends to be more popular with kids with ADHD because it does not require as much focus for long periods. 

[PeterPan]

I want to say this gently, but is it possible you're rushing things because of your own schedule?  Math facts didn't get faster on my dd till she was more like age 12/13.  Not 8/9/10 when I would have liked.   ;)

 

I just noticed from your sig this is your first year homeschooling.   :grouphug:   You're going through a lot of learning curves.  Your dh is criticizing your schooling, but is he doing something about it, like getting your schedule freed to where you have TIME to slow down and do the things with her it would take?  It takes TIME to hang out on the LC board and learn about how happy homeschooling with a 2E, bright SN, etc. dc can look.  It takes TIME to learn how to flex a curriculum.  It takes TIME to read books on what this can look like.

 

Meds can help, but they're not going to improve her EF or your teaching skills, sorry.  I also agree fear of social stigma is a lousy reason to avoid meds.  It assumes that you ignore it and it's not really happening.  The inverse of that is medicate it and it goes away.  NEITHER is true.

 

I say this gently, but the carousel is *yours*.  When *you* get off the carousel, you'll be able to learn how to light up *her* theme park.  These kids are a boatload of fun to teach. (Yes I know that's a loaded statement, and yes I know you have to feel up to it to see it that way and that not *all* are.  I'm just saying when you get over the shock, there is a more positive way to view them.) They're full of energy, enjoy rabbit trails, love to build/make/do, enjoy creative applications, etc. etc.  Everyone needs time to grow as a teacher.  If your dh thinks things need to change, tell him you need the time, the Teacher Inservice sessions to help that happen.  You need to come to a convention like the Cincy convention coming up in April and meet people and talk with them and imbibe.  You need to see how this can look.  Have you already read a bunch of books?  What have you read and not read yet?  There's tons out there.

 

February is the hardest month of the homeschooling year for a lot of reasons, and you're hitting them all.  People realize they're over-committed.  People realize the curriculum isn't getting done and they flip.  People's vitamin D gets low, so they get lethargic and depressed.  Kids are cooped up so much, so they're climbing the walls.  The fruit isn't as fresh, so we're not getting as many nutrients.  There's just a lot happening, and it's NORMAL.  It's NORMAL for your kid to drive you CRAZY right now.  Send her outside!  Declare this week snow week, and if there's no snow MAKE it in the house!!!  Spray paint the windows and drink hot chocolate and listen to audiobooks.  Do something else a while.  When was the last time you took a BREAK?  

 

It's normal to have a huge learning curve your first few years.  I think most people would say it takes them 3-4 years to really get in the groove.  Don't confuse as adhd issues things that are just NORMAL.  

 

Things that have helped us?

 

-clear structure and checklists

-metronome work.  See Heather's instructions on the LC board.  You're not going to BELIEVE what this will do for her.

-Less school work and more time for her creative things. Our psych specifically said this.  We were 12 at the time of evals btw.  It's pretty jolting when your psych comes up to you and says you know, mrs. xxx, do less school work with her.  Leave her more energy to do her own things.  And you go, but I thought we weren't doing enough!!  Doing their own things makes them blossom.  My dd wants to live in high gear.  It's sort of the very definition of the label, kwim?  She wants to DO stuff, and NT people tend to live sort of slow, methodical lives.   ;)  My dd at that age was very into sculpting, crafting, sewing costumes for her dolls or the dog, that sort of thing.  Now she cooks amazingly, cans (yes, like meat, jelly, fruit), sews, etc.  She's a total doer.  I want to see if she can become a certified florist or get some other skills like that before she graduates.

-read books by people who have a whole, healthy perspective of how this can work out.  The boards are good for this too.  

 

My dd, when she was young, would work a little, run around, come back.  We used timers.  We used pocket charts to know the plan and later went to checklists.  Your dd is at a good age for checklists.  Once we started using whiteboards for math, that helped IMMENSELY.  We did our math together on the whiteboard.  I'd take the BORING PROBLEMS and turn them into anything.  Our physical science labs last year all turned into Lord of the Rings stories.  I've never even read the books, hehe, but I've seen just enough of the movies that I could make up ridiculous stories using her favorite characters.  It takes a lot of energy and interaction to do that.  

 

I'm sorry she's hard to work with.  We're not there.  Maybe it's an impossible situation and math really can't get done, no matter what you change about your teaching technique. I'm sorta surprised though that her reading is going so well if that's the case.  My dd has always been multiple grade levels ahead in reading, and so with the math it wasn't that she couldn't but that she really had to be engaged, sort of up-tempo, and worked with, bang, bang, bang, never a dull moment.  That's tiring, and you win the prize.  There's a reason my dd is on TT for math now.   ;)

 

Have you tried caffeine on her? 

Looked into neurofeedback?

[Tiramisu]

Just adding to some of the above. I'd write for her for math and use a white board. Do you have a trampoline or a play set? Have her play while you yell out problems. Loosen up your expectations for having her sit still while working. 

 

I also see you're using Spelling Workout. I'd take the words and go through them on a white board and/or aloud. I'd ditch having her write in the books, unless she really likes them. Come up with activities to do for spelling that may bring a spark into it for her. 

 

Does yours like to read? With my older ones, I had them read good books. Reading eased up the stress of having very active children. My youngest loves twaddle, so I loosened up and let her have it. It gives me a break because she'll read for hours happily, giving me a chance to get other things done. Today, I saw she was reading Little Women so maybe her tastes have changed. (No, I don't expect her to get to far in it, but still...)

 

One other thing, as OhE said, facts can come slow with some kids. But I feel like I've run into a lot of people whose dc had problems with math and it wound up being related to a vision or developmental vision issue. So that's something to keep in the back of your mind.

 

Oh, yes. You'll need some sensory activities. I already mentioned things like jumping and swinging while doing math, but it may also help to have lots of play do on hands with cookie cutters, for example, and also moon sand for the cold weather months. For years, I kept an under the bed type of plastic bin in my kitchen full of moon sand and it kept them occupied nicely. 

[PeterPan]

I suspect the ADHD DX is wrong. Kids with ADHD usually do not like to read. Math tends to be more popular with kids with ADHD because it does not require as much focus for long periods. 

That's so pathetically wrong, I don't even need to go into it.  My dd is a PHENOMENAL reader and loves to read.  How they read depends on the IQ of the dc, how they were taught, the language environment they've been raised in, etc. etc.  It's not just one thing. As for the math, they *can* be surprisingly good conceptually, but again you're comparing kids of different IQs, etc. etc.  Einstein and my kid aren't going to be the same, even if they have the same label.   :lol:  

 

More reasonable generalizations?  Adhd kids tend to be VSL (possibly with VSL abilities held back by undiagnosed vision problems which then cause the seeming learning problems), and the VSL abilities give them strengths with problem-solving, things that are spatial like sewing or building, etc. etc.  

 

Whatever, that's a total rabbit trail. It is an interesting point for the op though that according to Freed (Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World ) your dc should have VSL abilities to tap.  When they're not clicking, sometimes a developmental vision check will explain something.  My dd's VSL abilities didn't express themselves until we did vision therapy.  But yeah, that's a total rabbit trail.  :D

[PeterPan]

Just adding to some of the above. I'd write for her for math and use a white board. Do you have a trampoline or a play set? Have her play while you yell out problems. Loosen up your expectations for having her sit still while working. 

 

I also see you're using Spelling Workout. I'd take the words and go through them on a white board and/or aloud. I'd ditch having her write in the books, unless she really likes them. Come up with activities to do for spelling that may bring a spark into it for her. 

 

Does yours like to read? With my older ones, I had them read good books. Reading eased up the stress of having very active children. My youngest loves twaddle, so I loosened up and let her have it. It gives me a break because she'll read for hours happily, giving me a chance to get other things done. Today, I saw she was reading Little Women so maybe her tastes have changed. (No, I don't expect her to get to far in it, but still...)

 

One other thing, as OhE said, facts can come slow with some kids. But I feel like I've run into a lot of people whose dc had problems with math and it wound up being related to a vision or developmental vision issue. So that's something to keep in the back of your mind.

Oh my goodness, the virtues of twaddle!!!  My dd read COMICS like there was no tomorrow.  I'm talking she would BINGE on them to the point you'd cringe and take them all away and hide them and...  We have a full bookshelf of older comics from when my dh was growing up, I kid you not, and she ADORED them.  The REASON?  Not rocket science.  She'd work hard all day (because of course her processing speed is low and the latin, the math, etc. was wearing her out) and she'd need twaddle by evening.

 

So in reality, working with them is the opposite of what you expect.  You need to require LESS to get more out of them.  It's a really fine line to walk, requiring enough that you get the skills where they need to be but not so much that they can't do their own things.  Their own work will be more connected and better retained.  You can be seeing interests now that will last a LONG TIME with her, so you might as well embrace them, whatever they are.

 

I didn't have these when dd was little, but I now have an indoor mini rebounder and a Sky Chair (single line swing) that I find invaluable with ds.  

[PeterPan]

Just for your trivia, one of the best things I did was get her an iPad and a keyboard and teach her to type Dvorak (an alternate keyboard layout).  Typing opened the world for her, and the iPad, well it's just fascinating to see what they do with it.  I highly recommend investing in good technology for her.  

 

Another piece of trivia?  There's research to show video games up processing speed.  Are there games she shies away from?  Do you have a Wii or PS3 or some such thing?  When we first started finding all this out, we got a Wii, and it's amazing how much they shy away from the games that are really hard for them with processing, coordination, etc.  SandyKC over on LC makes the argument that we should *require* our kids to play video games.  How's that for a twist, hehe...  When you know *why* you're doing it though, it can be good!  I pick apps for the iPad to work on attention, processing speed, etc. with my ds.  That way, when I give him my phone, I know he's getting therapy and doesn't realize it.  He thinks he's having fun, but he's getting therapy.  :D

 

You have the advantage of finding all this young.  She's still able to be compelled and worked with.  Try telling a 14 yo to sit 20 minutes a day and do something hard.  Doesn't fly.   :lol:  So even though it doesn't feel all good at this point, I wish we had known early the way you do and been able to make these changes...  

[Tiramisu]

So in reality, working with them is the opposite of what you expect.  You need to require LESS to get more out of them.  It's a really fine line to walk, requiring enough that you get the skills where they need to be but not so much that they can't do their own things.  Their own work will be more connected and better retained.  You can be seeing interests now that will last a LONG TIME with her, so you might as well embrace them, whatever they are.

 

 

I think lightening up with my youngest has allowed very interesting things to develop, if that makes sense. I read to her everyday but mostly at night when she's still. I'm not nearly reading aloud to extent that I did with my older ones. But she uses what she gets better. She will go through the table of contents of different books, and has since she was five, to find out what's in a book and what she really wants out of it. She will ask me the meaning of each and every word she does not know. She will look things up that she hears about in our reading to find out what they are and what they look like. She will compare different versions of the fairy tales I read. She will pour over maps and books about the States, sharing the information she's finding. I just see in this a curiosity that developed because it was given a chance to and research skills and a love of learning that, I hope, will last a lifetime.

[kbutton]

I am about to lose it. DD8 is so distracted she can't even concentrate long enough to get the answer on the page after working the problem. DH thinks she has a math phobia and needs a therapist, I think her brain just isn't wired up for math and she needs a tutor who specializes in LD. We are still struggling with basic math facts. She has a hard time doing Xtramath because the time pressure makes her freak out. This was also documented in the testing she had done- very difficult for her to do things with a time limit.

 

Don't completely disregard the idea that your daughter has a phobia (I'd probably call it anxiety). My son has anxiety, particularly about math, and he's GOOD at math. Anxiety doesn't always look like we think it should--it can look like inattention, task avoidance, meltdowns, anger, defiance. Keep an open mind about it. First year of homeschooling is a huge change, and we had to back WAY OFF on most stuff to get through the first year.

 

About math facts...My son tests the highest for problem solving and that sort of thing, NOT math facts. He understands conceptual math and can do mental math, but not fast. If he is timed, he resorts to calculating on his fingers really fast, and all that conceptual understanding flies away. If I give him a page of math facts, he may or may not do well on it. If I give him a problem like 3895 x 345, he can do it just fine, but he'll be slower to finish (we keep math output to a minimum needed to master the concepts and not forget them). When he does a big problem, the math facts sort of fade into the background of his mind, and he thinks about how the problem works instead--he's using the math facts, in context like a tool, and they are suddenly no big deal. If he's having a bad day, we let him use a multiplication chart (which sometimes actually helps him learn his facts). His math facts solidify slowly by using them to solve harder problems, more conceptual problems, and word problems. He's in fourth grade, and I hope he knows his facts by the time he does algebra. I've met other folks whose kids are advanced by several grades in math, and their kids don't know their facts either.

[PeterPan]

Since the op got full evals (from the sound of it?), she should have in the write-up whether there's anxiety at this point or not.  There's always the potential to provoke anxiety, even when it's not there.  Dd does *not* have anxiety, but our psych made the comment about not doing anything to provoke it or bring it out.  I thought that was fascinating.  It's such a fine line and a reminder to back off and get them back to their positive place as much as possible, the place where things WORK.  

 

I'm curious (for the op), whether it's you or your dh that the dc got it from?  He seems to be making observations, so maybe one or the other parent has btdt and instinctively feels it?  If you've got that going on, then you have another source to draw on.  It's not like kids can get everything into words.

 

Also, this might seem like trivia, but technically adhd is NOT an LD.  Now a dc can have an LD *in addition* to the adhd, but technically by itself it's not.  It's really fascinating to ponder, that you're talking differences, differences in how they learn, think, and process, but not an actual learning disorder.  Some say, and admittedly it's sort of provocative, that we PROVOKE the LD with our insensitive timetables and the idea that all kids must learn the same way.  When you alter the timetable to fit what seems to be more typical of these kids and changes methods, the LD disappears. 

 

There's actually MRI evidence to back up thinking like that, btw.  The Eides, in their book Dyslexic Advantage, talk about the widely spaced mini-columns and the effect this has on kids.  This is all very new information, but it's really profound when you ponder that their low processing speed may be a direct result of the number and spacing of their mini-columns and that this is a DIFFERENCE, not a DEFECT.  The widely-spaced mini-columns do make it take a lot longer to "learn" things by rote, but they also result in a greater amount of connectedness and ability to see relationships, solve problems divergently, etc., because the info bumps around and makes so many connections on the way to making the final destination connection.  DA is DEFINITELY a book worth reading!

 

HSBC sometimes has a deal on a learning styles profile that I've known some people to have good results with.  Might give you more ideas.  I only have two, but they're so radically different, I can't imagine teaching based on generalizations.

[...................]

Seriously...

 

I had a friend back in FL whose daughter was absolutely out of control as a 3, 4, and 5 year old.  Well, she was under control because my friend was an amazing, consistent parent but her attention span, impulses, body movements, outbreaks were constant.  She was a disruption during EVERY Cubbie AWANA class and although she was kind and gentle, and very very loving and extremely intelligent, it was extraordinarily difficult to have her around in or out of class.  She would look here, look there, bump this child, bump that child, touch people, disregard and disagree with what we asked her to do...on and on and on...she would redirect the lessons constantly...it was really really hard!

 

THen, her mom put her on a STRICT Feingold diet, and ....I was NEVER a believer before that and now I am a BELIEVER.  She was a TOTALLY different child within about 2 months. Nothing changed in her home life, her mom didn't change, everything else was exactly the same.  No more junk, no more preservatives, no more chemicals, no more dyes.  IT WAS AMAZING!! BUT her mom used the REAL Feingold diet- she bought the book and trust me there are hidden chemicals  in all kinds of stuff that you do not realize.

 

My own dd does not have ADHD but is very distractable and ont he advice of the ladies here I added the vitamins they recommended, and the high protein breakfast and I see a HUGE difference, it is very very diffierent.  We also use the TIme TImer and a reward system for good focus.  Fish oils, multivitamin, high protein breakfast, and we do a basic Feingold like diet...huge difference.  

 

Before trying drugs, I would say you might want to look into a 3 month trial of the Feingold diet and eating organics, no pesticides and chemicals.

[SweetMissMagnolia]

my kiddo has some of those same issues--freaks if I tell him there's a time limit.....hates repetition... we tried the medication route and to make a long story short got tired of trying different meds and kiddo freaked out at having to swallow a pill and thinking he would choke so that became another issue for us..am going to try some omega 3 and fish oil supplements and see if I can see any benefits for him..hang in there it is hard

[Garga]

You will do medication or not as you see fit, but I do want to chime in on it.

 

My DH lasted until he was 42 years old with ADHD and no medications.  He is responsible and has always held down a job and taken good care of his family, even with ADHD.

 

But finally at 42 things started coming to a head.  He was studying for his master's degree, he was deeply involved with church activities, his job duties at work were ramping up.  All his coping mechanisms he'd learned over the years were failing him.  He was spinning wheels and not getting things done.

 

He asked his doctor for some ADHD meds.  The doctor said, "Sure."  He got the type that work for about 4 hours at a go.  

 

It changed his life.  

 

For the first time ever he could think of one thing at a time.  His ability to focus on studying, to focus on his job, to get things done about the house increased greatly.  He said it was a relief to be able to control his thoughts.  

 

We had been against medications for our ADHD son until that day.  DH said, "How can I deny this benefit to my son?  How can I leave him struggling and feeling bad about his struggles to control his impulses and thoughts, while I benefit and am finding relief?"  He felt it would be cruel to keep this away from our son.

 

The first day that our son took his meds, he finished his MUS page in under 10 minutes and they were all correct.  It used to take him an hour to do one page and most of them were wrong, even though I know he knew the facts.

 

The first day on the meds, my son said, "My feet finally don't hurt."  I have no idea what that meant, but somehow that meant to him that he could control himself.  

 

I've heard that a lot of people will stop taking the meds in their teens, when they are finally old enough to truly control their impulses and can work on gathering their thoughts  We didn't think it was fair to expect a 9 year old to "learn to control himself" when it was even difficult for my 42 yo DH to do that.  People need years to learn all the coping mechanisms you need to deal with ADHD.  We felt it would be best to give him a boost with the meds while teaching self-control.

 

My DH still uses the meds, but not all the time.  I can now clearly tell when he hasn't taken them.  He's scatter-brained and a little goofy.  We joke about it, "I can see your meds have worn off, dear."  

 

This is all said in a kind tone.  I don't expect you to change your mind on anything based on what I say, but meds are not evil.  They can be of great benefit.  My son was getting to the point where he thought he was a horrible person because he couldn't do anything right.  And he couldn't.  Everything he tried to do, he failed at, because he was so distracted.  It was heartbreaking to watch him fail.  We have had only good come from getting him the medications to help him focus.  His education took off and now he is confident that he can have an appropriate level of self-control.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Big hugs.  Don't give up.  You have had a lot of advice from a lot of great people.  Just want to emphasize a couple of things.

 

1.  Starting homeschooling is an adjustment.  Give both of you time to find the right path.  You may need to do some outside the box, relaxed schooling for a while until you both can find a better rhythm.

2.  Dump the timed anything.  It won't help with retention right now.  It causes more stress which leads to more tension and an inability to function, plus may damage your relationship.  Someday in the future this may be a good method, but not right now.  We don't do timed anything anymore.  It didn't help at ALL.  Someday, maybe.  But not now.

3.  Read soror's relaxed math post that she mentioned and linked up thread.  It is a fantastic resource for approaching math outside the box, in a fun and engaging way, which you both may very much need right now.  Awesome, awesome resource!

4.  You are not alone.  There are a lot of parents who have been where you are.  Take a deep breath.  In fact, maybe take a break from "school" altogether for a few days. Do fun projects together, plant an indoor plant, watch some movies, play card games, whatever it takes to break the cycle of frustration.  She is young.  You have time.  Don't fret about the public school time table.  Helping your child thrive instead of struggling or just surviving is far more important than fighting to stay on an artificial time table.  Honestly, there is plenty of time to catch up.

5.  Post your concerns on the Learning Challenges board.  Lots of great people over there with a lot of experience dealing with these frustrations.

 

Best wishes.  So sorry this is so difficult right now (btdt).  And again, really, really big hugs.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[smudge]

Thank you all! So many great ideas here. I have her on fish oil now. I have tried coffee on her, but can't get her to do more than a sip or two, whereas I practically mainline the stuff. I was very overwhelmed this am. She was having difficulty, my DH has been off work for back surgery and has bad cabin fever and I have work pressures. So maybe we will all take a break. Younger sis has finished MM bk 1 and I have her doing a few pages a day in red Miquon. The older kid I thought maybe to take a break and just have her work through orange Miquon. I like MM, but yeah, cluttered pages!

DD8 does fine with SOTW, biology, FLL, WWE, and Spelling WOrkout, In fact she gets nearly perfect spelling tests. But she cannot work independently, the 6yr old can no problem.

She is a great reader and she does love her Nintendo DS games. She is also very creative. And when she wants to, there is no one sweeter!

 

Thanks again for all of the replies. It certainly gives me several "rabbit holes" of information to go down!

[OneStepAtATime]

A few more things that I thought I would mention:  

 

1.  When I am reading with my kids, my kids both tend to retain material better if they are also doing other things, like art projects or playing with legos or something of that nature.  It keeps their bodies occupied so their minds are focused on what I am saying, not on trying to stay still.

 

2.  And we do a lot of discussion while bouncing balls, swinging in swings, taking walks, bouncing on the trampoline, etc.  That also seems to help.  I couldn't learn that way terribly well.  It would drive me nuts.  But they do much better learning while in motion (and many scientific studies are showing that certain types of brains really do function better while in motion).

 

3. And whenever I can incorporate some real world application stuff to whatever topic we are learning and do it physically, that also really helps.  For instance, we were supposed to do a written comparison between technology in the 1700's and today.  Just reading about it wasn't sparking any interest.  I then handed stacks of little colored post it notes to each child and asked each of the kids to stick a post it note on everything in the house that required electricity.  No duplication, so you couldn't put yours on one that already had one.  I then had them go back through and write a brief note on each post it as to what the equivalent NON-electricity using item would have been in the 1700's, if any, (or dictate if they weren't sure what the word was).  We all had a blast and the kids really remembered the lesson.

[Heathermomster]

I don't expect you to tease apart any math issues until you get a handle on the ADHD first.

 

Personally, I would explore Feingold and supplements first. This will require consistency on your part. Enlist the help of your DH because your entire family will need to be on board, encouraging and developing new eating habits.

 

If behaviors are not corrected through diet, absolutely seek meds. Be advised though, meds do not always work.

 

Your DD is still very young. Remind yourself that no one chooses to be hyper or struggle. Work under the assumption that she loves you and sincerely wants to please. Try to develop a support system for yourself. Maybe, make a habit to call or meet a friend for coffee once a week for your own sanity.

[Tiramisu]

Thank you all! So many great ideas here. I have her on fish oil now. I have tried coffee on her, but can't get her to do more than a sip or two, whereas I practically mainline the stuff. I was very overwhelmed this am. She was having difficulty, my DH has been off work for back surgery and has bad cabin fever and I have work pressures. So maybe we will all take a break. Younger sis has finished MM bk 1 and I have her doing a few pages a day in red Miquon. The older kid I thought maybe to take a break and just have her work through orange Miquon. I like MM, but yeah, cluttered pages!

DD8 does fine with SOTW, biology, FLL, WWE, and Spelling WOrkout, In fact she gets nearly perfect spelling tests. But she cannot work independently, the 6yr old can no problem.

She is a great reader and she does love her Nintendo DS games. She is also very creative. And when she wants to, there is no one sweeter!

 

Thanks again for all of the replies. It certainly gives me several "rabbit holes" of information to go down!

 

If you are happy with MM, despite the cluttered pages, can you do it on a whiteboard?

[simplemom]

I am glad you found a safe place to vent here and have gotten such supportive responses. I am glad you recognize the many overwhelming factors piling up on you at this moment, and that you are giving yourself a break.

 

I don't know much about ADHD, but to back up what some said about diet I would research for yourself and see if gluten free casein free would be good for you to trial with your dd. My son is very high energy, but most of the time joyful and he has an extremely good attention span. I would never suspect he had ADHD (unless just the H alone could be a diagnosis). We eat low wheat because of husband's allergies. I am currently giving my son gluten everyday to get an accurate test on a celiac lab panel, and within 2 days of eating a larger amount of gluten he started driving me crazy! I couldn't even do school with him one day because he couldn't focus, was crying at every little bump in the road in the lessons he normally loves. I even emailed the MD about it, who probably thinks I'm bonkers for thinking wheat could do that to a child, but the MD did say I can back off on the wheat. Ds has gone back to normal school days with wheat only once/day, but he is still more hyper than usual.

[PeterPan]

Independent work, for us, was more like age 13.  This year, at age 14, I would describe her as largely independent.  She's able to totally run her show as long as she has a checklist, and she meets deadlines, works ahead to be able to go to events, etc.  You'll find people saying in books that these kids ought to be independent in 4th grade, and it really skews our perspective of what is normal or common and definitely does't inform us on what is normal for SN.  That author may have had NT, very high IQ kids.  Maybe they were BOYS who liked working independently, not socially-driven girls.  Everything has a context. 

 

What's with all the worksheet driven math btw?  MM and Miquon are both still worksheets.  Have you thought about something more interactive, with a lesson you can do together?  BJU is that way, also MUS.  Or go the other direction and do something like CLE that has very clean pages and even has review and fact drill built in.  Or TT that has short lessons and high interaction value.

 

Math is EVERYONE'S hardest thing to solve btw.  It's another thing where it's easy to think the problem is the SN, when really I think EVERYONE struggles to find their dc's fit on math for a while.  

[Tiramisu]

What's with all the worksheet driven math btw?  MM and Miquon are both still worksheets.  Have you thought about something more interactive, with a lesson you can do together?  BJU is that way, also MUS.  Or go the other direction and do something like CLE that has very clean pages and even has review and fact drill built in.  Or TT that has short lessons and high interaction value.

 

Math is EVERYONE'S hardest thing to solve btw.  It's another thing where it's easy to think the problem is the SN, when really I think EVERYONE struggles to find their dc's fit on math for a while.  

 

The clean pages of MUS made math much easier for one of mine. Saxon is another one with cluttered pages that may best be avoided for some kids.

 

I completely agree that math can bring out our weaknesses. I think there can be underlying reasons for dislike of and preference for a specific math curricula and it's worth paying attention to.

[Lori D.]

 I like MM, but yeah, cluttered pages!

 

If MM "clicks" for DD, and it's just the visually cluttered page that's a difficulty, you can try cutting a hole in a blank sheet of paper and cover the workbook page with that blank paper so the hole only reveals one problem at a time, to reduce visual clutter. :)