Article relating to recent parenting threads...

[Joanne]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kathycaprino/2014/01/16/7-crippling-parenting-behaviors-that-keep-children-from-growing-into-leaders/

 

I personally believe that there IS something as "too careful" and "too protective" and that it is not benign.

 

I think that autonomy should be age appropriately encouraged throughout.

[Erin]

What things have made you realize your kids could be more independent?

The day my 12 year old hooked up the gooseneck horse trailer, drove it down to the house yard, then helped his sister catch and load their horses for a rodeo that day...  

 

 

My kids are vital members of this family.  I count on them.  

More importantly, they know their dad and I count on them, and rise to our expectations.   More than almost any praise I could give my kids is the compliment of, "Thanks sweetie.  You're such a useful kid!"

 

 

 

I look at what was expected of kids a few generations ago and what is expected now...I think "developmentally appropriate" is almost always younger than what people today think it is.  

[DianeW88]

Helicopter parenting, and over-estimating risks to your child's health and well-being are doing a HUGE disservice to the kids in our country.  We are raising a bunch of wimps who can't do anything from cooking a meal alone to choosing their college classes without mommy's help.  It's ridiculous.

[momma2three]

I think that a lot of the trend towards overprotective parenting has to do with a backlash towards 1970's style lenient parenting... I know many people in their 30s and 40s who grew up in the 70s/early 80s and are HORRIFIED at what their parents let them do, how little their parents knew about what was going on in their lives, how little supervision they had.  I think it's easy to romanticize the days when "kids played all day outside without any supervision, parents never knew where they were" or "parents worked, so the elementary school kids took care of themselves after school and made dinner" and think about how independent kids were.  But the truth is that I know an awful lot of people who had really bad experiences as children in that position.  Terrible bullying, tragic accidents, sexual predators, and even just loneliness and jealousy.  So I think the pendulum has swung in the other direction, probably too far.  Better technology also allows us to keep a better eye on our kids, in a way that wasn't even possible then.

 

I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon.

[creekland]

 

I look at what was expected of kids a few generations ago and what is expected now...I think "developmentally appropriate" is almost always younger than what people today think it is.  

 

:iagree:  Kids can do so much more than many people realize and often they LIKE doing it if it's meaningful and not just "busywork."  When they learn the world will do everything for them and all they have to do is freeload, I think they tend to think that's the way it should work forever... even into adulthood.  It's not that they won't work then, but they do seem to complain a lot more about it IME.

 

[Guest]

I think that a lot of the trend towards overprotective parenting has to do with a backlash towards 1970's style lenient parenting... I know many people in their 30s and 40s who grew up in the 70s/early 80s and are HORRIFIED at what their parents let them do, how little their parents knew about what was going on in their lives, how little supervision they had.  I think it's easy to romanticize the days when "kids played all day outside without any supervision, parents never knew where they were" or "parents worked, so the elementary school kids took care of themselves after school and made dinner" and think about how independent kids were.  But the truth is that I know an awful lot of people who had really bad experiences as children in that position.  Terrible bullying, tragic accidents, sexual predators, and even just loneliness and jealousy.  So I think the pendulum has swung in the other direction, probably too far.  Better technology also allows us to keep a better eye on our kids, in a way that wasn't even possible then.

 

I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon.

 

You bring up a good point. I believe my parents were too disconnected, especially as I grew into teen/young adult. They just never had meaningful discussion with me about what to do, what were good ideas, how to make decisions about things, etc. 

 

Definitely don't think it's better to be a helicopter, but ideally, kids should have meaningful interactions with, and guidance from, the parents. 

[momma2three]

Yes, as with most trends like this, the happy medium is the place to be :)

 

I also think that a lot of the "trend" is media hyperbole.  I mean, I've been reading articles exactly like that since I was a kid.  It's really just click-bait, because everyone truly believes "kids these days need to get off my lawn!  Back in my day, we didn't even HAVE lawns!  And we had to mow them 48 hours a day or Pa would take out the strap!  And it was really confusing, because how could I mow my nonexistent lawn?"  I'm sure everyone knows a horror story about some distant relative who babies their teenager to some absurd extent or whatever, but overall most parents are just doing the best they can, and their kids will grow up okay.

[msrift]

What things have made you realize your kids could be more independent?

 

This question reminded me of something from my own childhood. When I was not quite 12, we were getting ready for one of our many moves (military family) and my job was to keep my 2yr old sister out of the house every morning for one week while we had the carpets cleaned, painters in, etc.

 

I'd take the stroller up to the neighborhood park and play there for an hour or two. Next we'd walk to the strip mall that backed up to our neighborhood (several blocks away, I did have to cross one road that had a stoplight and crosswalk). We did a little window shopping, stopped to eat an ice cream cone, then purchased a couple of items my mom had requested from the grocery store before walking back home. 

 

This was in the mid-80s in a typical suburban neighborhood in Colorado Springs.

 

We did that every day for a week and I don't remember anything saying negative me. (Trust me, I'd remember if I had. I think I've internalized every slightly negative thing that has ever happened to me.) I did receive several compliments and was quite proud of myself for being so responsible and able to help out in that way. My oldest is that age. I think he is completely capable of taking care of his 3yr old sister in the same way, but I'd never have him do those things out of fear of someone calling CPS on us. I try to give him as many similar experiences as I can in 'secret' but it's hard when society insists that parents must helicopter or else be considered negligent.

 

 

[momma2three]

I have a 13 year old babysitter that I use sometime.  Honestly, she's not that great a sitter (DS says she doesn't really play with him, and spends the whole time playing on her phone or looking in all the rooms in our house), so she's only our backup when our 14 year old neighbor isn't available.  But nobody has ever said Boo to that.  I think 12 is borderline for babysitting at home, but it's really normal for a mother's helper sort of situation around here, which definitely involves taking the kids for walks or to the playground if it's in walking distance.  I never had a mother's helper, but many of my friends have.

[Farrar]

I think that a lot of the trend towards overprotective parenting has to do with a backlash towards 1970's style lenient parenting... I know many people in their 30s and 40s who grew up in the 70s/early 80s and are HORRIFIED at what their parents let them do, how little their parents knew about what was going on in their lives, how little supervision they had.  I think it's easy to romanticize the days when "kids played all day outside without any supervision, parents never knew where they were" or "parents worked, so the elementary school kids took care of themselves after school and made dinner" and think about how independent kids were.  But the truth is that I know an awful lot of people who had really bad experiences as children in that position.  Terrible bullying, tragic accidents, sexual predators, and even just loneliness and jealousy.  So I think the pendulum has swung in the other direction, probably too far.  Better technology also allows us to keep a better eye on our kids, in a way that wasn't even possible then.

 

I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon.

 

Some of us look back with fondness, not horror though.

 

I think there was a way in which some parents of the 70's and 80's were disconnected, as someone mentioned.  But that's separate issue.  I know my mother is bizarrely appalled by both how much attention I give my kids AND how much responsibility and freedom (though, really, not different from what she put on me at all...  short memory, clearly).

[Χά�ων]

 

I look at what was expected of kids a few generations ago and what is expected now...I think "developmentally appropriate" is almost always younger than what people today think it is.  

 

Yep. When I was in high school I was big into sociology and I found the differences in expectations in young (under 5) children to be fascinating. In some cultures, 2 year olds were given large knives (think machete) and left to practice using them and were not only able to use them safely but were even aware of a toddler walking by and automatically adjusted their swings to ensure they did not hit the toddler. When I was 8 a friend of the families 16 year old daughter came over for dinner and did not even know how to cut up her steak because her never allowed any of the children to use knives. They actually kept the knives locked up. The youngest child was 8. 

 

I recall an article about Little House on the Prairie series and how Mary, at the age of 5, was left to care for Laura while Ma and Pa went into town. I found that really interesting. Figure there were no cell phones and no way to contact them if there was an issue and no way for Ma and Pa to hurry back and rescue her if there was an issue.

[Joanne]

A thread at another parenting site (alternative/homeschooling

Minded) years ago stunned me. It was about leaving kids unsupervised, and the conditions is such. Several moms did not allow eating while they were away (danger of choking). I could see not *cooking* at certain ages but not restricting eating or microwaving.

[lavender's green]

Amen.  I'm on the older side of the Millennial generation, and all around me I see really woeful "failures to launch," and the root of it is often how the kids were raised.  I see so many threads about adult children and I just want to say, "Your kid just wants to be an adult!  Why don't you let them!?  You insulated them from the real world for 18 years and didn't teach them basic common sense or let them fail and then thrust them into the world, and now you wonder why they're doing idiotic things."

[bettyandbob]

I think that a lot of the trend towards overprotective parenting has to do with a backlash towards 1970's style lenient parenting... I know many people in their 30s and 40s who grew up in the 70s/early 80s and are HORRIFIED at what their parents let them do, how little their parents knew about what was going on in their lives, how little supervision they had.  I think it's easy to romanticize the days when "kids played all day outside without any supervision, parents never knew where they were" or "parents worked, so the elementary school kids took care of themselves after school and made dinner" and think about how independent kids were.  But the truth is that I know an awful lot of people who had really bad experiences as children in that position.  Terrible bullying, tragic accidents, sexual predators, and even just loneliness and jealousy.  So I think the pendulum has swung in the other direction, probably too far.  Better technology also allows us to keep a better eye on our kids, in a way that wasn't even possible then.

 

I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon.

 

 

I do not look back in horror at what my parents let me do. My parents were gone 7 am - 7 pm. My siblings and I were latchkey children in the early 70s well before daycare was contemplated. The house was clean and dinner was on the table every night at 7. We were independent and very responsible. We also did stuff that we probably shouldn't have. 

 

In the summer, when I was early elementary we had a 16 year old neighbor "watch" us. She didn't know where we were much of the time. She stayed in the house and was available much like a 60s/70s SAHM while we were out with all the other neighborhood kids. Most days we did go to the pool for hours. Our babysitter went to, but she hung with her friends at the pool. Later elementary we had not sitter in the summer. Some weeks I was home on my own, free to decide to ride my bike for hours. Some weeks I went to daycamp. I rode my bike to daycamp, checked myself in and road my bike home.

 

I really appreciate the independence and responsibility I developed. My kids are behind where I was and I regret that. I might have been able to get them further along, but I don't think changes would have made them as independent and responsible as I was. I think having mom around most of the time can make a kid a little lazy about maturing. For the record, I have noticed that over time I tend to encourage my dc to do more on their own than other parents we've interacted with in our area. 

 

I wish I had had a closer relationship with my mom. Sure, part of the hindrance was lack of time. But it's also personality based. So, if she had worked less hours and been around more I'm certain we still wouldn't have been close. My dd and I have a good relationship and she shares way more about her life than I ever did with my mom. 

 

My parents didn't shirk parenting duties. My siblings and I certainly knew there were expectations. And we knew education was very important. Good grades were essential. 

 

I suspect where some people may have gone off the rails is where no expectations and responsibilities were communicated. But there are children today who have hovering parents and no responsibilities. I actually think the kid in the 70s without responsibilities was better off because that kid at least had to make decisions for himself throughout the day. A child today without responsiblities and a hovering parent grows up practicing no skills that will help him live independently. 

 

Anyway, not every child of the 70s is horrified by his/her upbringing. 

[Pawz4me]

I think that a lot of the trend towards overprotective parenting has to do with a backlash towards 1970's style lenient parenting... I know many people in their 30s and 40s who grew up in the 70s/early 80s and are HORRIFIED at what their parents let them do, how little their parents knew about what was going on in their lives, how little supervision they had.  I think it's easy to romanticize the days when "kids played all day outside without any supervision, parents never knew where they were" or "parents worked, so the elementary school kids took care of themselves after school and made dinner" and think about how independent kids were.  But the truth is that I know an awful lot of people who had really bad experiences as children in that position.  Terrible bullying, tragic accidents, sexual predators, and even just loneliness and jealousy.  So I think the pendulum has swung in the other direction, probably too far.  Better technology also allows us to keep a better eye on our kids, in a way that wasn't even possible then.

 

I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon.

 

I grew up during the 70s and certainly haven't been horrified by the way I was raised.  Nor, as far as I know, are any of my friends or relatives who were raised in the same time period.  Were things different then?  Sure.  Just like things are different to some degree for every generation.  But different certainly doesn't always equal bad or negligent or anything worth being horrified about.  Of course there are things I wish my parents had done differently.  I doubt a child has ever been born who didn't look back and find something she wishes her parents had done differently.  I certainly expect my kids will do that.  I just hope they understand that DH and I were trying to do our best, and that any "mistakes" were done with the best of intentions.

[momma2three]

I don't believe I said that every single person raised in the decades of lax parenting had an unhappy time.  But plenty of them did.  And I maintain that if this wasn't the case, parenting trends wouldn't have reversed.

 

It's a 30 year old trend, anyway.  Everything changed in the early 80s, largely because that's when the Boomers started parenting en mass (and I think there was a lot of backlash there from their childhoods... their parents, the Greatest Generation, who grew up during Depression and War, tended to have a lot of parents and not a particularly warm parenting style... again, broad generalization.  Certainly true of all of my grandparents); and largely as a reaction to the high-profile stranger kidnapping cases that happened in the early 80s.  Everything this kind of article is talking about has been the norm of children for my entire life.  Somehow, I'm a functional adult.

 

So I'm personally very eye-rolly at these types of articles.  People have been complaining about "kids today!" since the dawn of time.  This kind of article gets people to click on it.  It's a nice distraction from all the other articles about how millennials are the highest-achieving generation ever (highest educated, lowest teen drug/sex/pregnancy rate in US history, expected to have a zillion extracurriculars and volunteer jobs before even thinking about applying to college, curing cancer in their Long Island bedrooms, etc).  Somehow, I think that this generation will grow up as well as any other generation ever has, even if old people like us like to sit around and talk about how awful all young people except our own are.

[katilac]

I think that a lot of the trend towards overprotective parenting has to do with a backlash towards 1970's style lenient parenting... I know many people in their 30s and 40s who grew up in the 70s/early 80s and are HORRIFIED at what their parents let them do, how little their parents knew about what was going on in their lives, how little supervision they had.  <big snip>

I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon.

 

I think this is very true, particularly parents having no idea what was going on in their kids' lives. I think the increase in communication (generally speaking) is a big plus of modern parenting.  And that Americans tend to have a bad habit of going to extremes. 

 

 <snip>  My oldest is that age. I think he is completely capable of taking care of his 3yr old sister in the same way, but I'd never have him do those things out of fear of someone calling CPS on us. I try to give him as many similar experiences as I can in 'secret' but it's hard when society insists that parents must helicopter or else be considered negligent.

 

 

No one around here would blink at an 11- or 12-yr-old pushing a toddler around in the stroller or babysitting them in general. 

 

 <snip>

 

I recall an article about Little House on the Prairie series and how Mary, at the age of 5, was left to care for Laura while Ma and Pa went into town. I found that really interesting. Figure there were no cell phones and no way to contact them if there was an issue and no way for Ma and Pa to hurry back and rescue her if there was an issue.

 

The Little House books feature some horrifying-to-the-modern-mind parenting, for sure. I read a collection of letters and diaries from the American west, and one story I will never forget is two young siblings who went horseback riding on a break from the wagon trail. They weren't back in time, and their parents went on without them!! They did manage to catch up, but the parents by no means had assumed they would; they were reconciled to never seeing them again. iirc, these kids were like 10 & 12. 

 

It's interesting to me that many people think those decisions were okay, b/c of the lifestyle and b/c they 'had no choice.' Well, they didn't have a choice once they were out on the prairie, maybe, but many of them, including the Ingalls, put themselves there voluntarily - they weren't about to starve or whatnot in the 'city.' People tend to be less forgiving of modern parents choosing a dangerous lifestyle for their family. Why? 

 

 <snip>

 

I suspect where some people may have gone off the rails is where no expectations and responsibilities were communicated. But there are children today who have hovering parents and no responsibilities. I actually think the kid in the 70s without responsibilities was better off because that kid at least had to make decisions for himself throughout the day. A child today without responsiblities and a hovering parent grows up practicing no skills that will help him live independently. 

 

Anyway, not every child of the 70s is horrified by his/her upbringing. 

 

Definitely not, and I think you make a good point about making decisions and practicing skills. I do think it's possible to be more involved and AWARE while still giving kids the change to learn and grow. 

[Danestress]

I do have to say it know a lot of amazing teens. I don't remember teens being so awesome when I was one of them! My kids' friends are, on the whole so smart, forward thinking, and hard working in their school work. They volunteer way more than we did and I know a lot of kids who work and save their money to cover their own expenses.

 

I know there are a lot of losers out there too, but I have confidence in the current generation of teenager. I see a lot of confident, caring, sensible teenagers who I have every reason to believe will do quite well. And in a way, I am glad my kids have come of age in a faltering economy. They seem to understand that it's a tough world out there and no one is gong to hand them a living. I honestly thought growing up that economic success would just naturally happen. I think my kids and their friends are probably more mature and practical than my friends and I were.

[Soror]

I'm not a fan of the "kids these days" grumblings either but I don't think every change is a positive one either. I'm continually surprised at how little parents these days have their kids do. I hear plenty talking about wanting their kids to do things but little to no follow through to make this happen. My kids appreciate the independence and responsibility they have, they take great pride and pleasure from being put in charge of various jobs. Frequently people tell me that they wish their kids were able to do as much as mine do but part of that is not only expecting it but letting go of control and perfectionism, which is often as much of a problem as anything else.

[Erin]

Somehow, I think that this generation will grow up as well as any other generation ever has, even if old people like us like to sit around and talk about how awful all young people except our own are.

But yet, this is already proving untrue.  

Kids who "aren't ready" to leave home in their 20s?  Why on earth not?  Why aren't they chafing to leave home?

 

 

What does the term "failure to launch" mean, anyway?  And who is it referring to if "this generation will grow up as well as any other generation ever has?"

 

[momma2three]

But yet, this is already proving untrue.  

Kids who "aren't ready" to leave home in their 20s?  Why on earth not?  Why aren't they chafing to leave home?

 

 

What does the term "failure to launch" mean, anyway?

 

 

 

I don't really understand why it's so important for them to, to the point that people who aren't involved are horrified?  The idea that you leave home at 18 and set up your own household is largely a US post-war trend, made possibly by cheap housing stock and government incentives.  It was not the norm before that period, nor is it still the norm in many places.

 

My parents actually left the country when I was 18, so I was left more alone in many ways than most of my peers.  It was what it was, but it certainly doesn't make me morally superior to someone in their 20s living at home, helping out their parents, and saving money.  The US economy would be in better shape if everyone weren't so desperate to appear independent and successful, and spent a little more energy on cost-saving measures such as intergenerational living.

[Erin]

:confused1: 

"Failure to launch" generally refers to someone firmly in their 20s.  Ie, 23 and up, not 18...

[momma2three]

Well, the 35% true unemployment rate for that age group might have something to do with it.

[momma2three]

Ha ha, this is actually hysterical.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100932822

 

36% of 18-31 year olds live at home!  The sky is falling!

 

Later in the article, they mention that between a third and half of that number are 18-25 year olds who go to college and still use their parents address as their legal address (incidentally, my biggest issue when my parents move overseas... I had no legal address anymore, because dorms don't count.)

 

As I said, hysterical articles designed to make old people like us shake our sticks at younguns.

 

As for the other ones?  Just google "true unemployment rate," and read.  It's bad out there.

 

Note that the article even says that it's the "highest number in 4 decades."  Because, in the olden days, it actually WAS the norm to remain at home, often until you were married and had a couple kids of your own.

[Joanne]

I didn't see this as a "kids these days" article at all. Interesting.

[Danestress]

:confused1:

"Failure to launch" generally refers to someone firmly in their 20s. Ie, 23 and up, not 18...

When I was doing genealogy research for my family and DH's, I looked at a lot of census reports from the early part of the 20th century, and I would say in the branches of our families, a lot of 20 something's were living with parents. My grandparents even lived with their parents after marriage and having kids.

 

I think what has really changed is expectations. We expect our kids to launch into their own homes and expect to have empty nests ourselves. We expect our parents to save for their own care when they are elderly. I don't think people had such expectations back then. I don't think it was seen as a 'failure' to live at home in one's 20s.

[momma2three]

I'll throw out there that I don't think I know anyone in their 20s who lives with their parents for any reasons other than:

1) the health of the parent is poor and the child is helping out (I know 2 families where the mother discovered she had cancer, and fresh-out-of-college children, both daughters actually, moved back home to help with all the medical appointments, driving, and whatever else needed to be done.  In one case, the father was already dead, and in the other I believe his job did not have a very generous family leave time.  Perhaps the solution is actually to do a better job supporting ill adults on a societal level?)

2) a year in between college and grad school where they're studying for the grad school entrance exams, which can be a full time job for med school, and working odd jobs while they prepare to move to wherever their graduate school will be.

 

So while the numbers are high, my experience is limited.  But, no matter how widespread it may be, I also REALLY don't believe that it's some sort of national calamity evidencing the downfall of American civilization.  I, frankly, don't see how it's a big deal at all.

[Ripley]

 

Kids who "aren't ready" to leave home in their 20s?  Why on earth not?  Why aren't they chafing to leave home?

 

 

What does the term "failure to launch" mean, anyway?  And who is it referring to if "this generation will grow up as well as any other generation ever has?"

 

 

I can share why on earth I personally wasn't chafing to leave home. It's because I had a good thing going! My mom did my laundry and kept the house clean; my grandmother cooked my meals and even packed my lunch; my father worked hard to keep the roof over my head and gas in my car; my brother, also in his 20s, was a live-in babysitter to my kids. All I had to do was go to work and contribute a paycheck - I purchased the groceries and paid the electric bill. I drove my grandmother to her doctor and bingo appointments ;) and made sure my sister's college books were purchased.

 

I was happy to stay at home because the family was better off sharing resources, than it was dividing them and creating a redundancy. This is how it is where we're from. Children generally stay home until marriage. It's practical; that's why it becomes more common even here in the U.S., every time the economy goes haywire.

 

There's a difference between cultural norms and "failure to launch" - I'm not sure how to explain my view of it without offending an entire group of people with (and sorry, but my) gross generalizations. So I won't try, other than to suggest that FTL is what happens when you try to separate the perceived wheat from the chaff - unsuccessfully, and with more of a hacking motion than a refined, thought out plan.

 

These FTL are a population of adults who are simply lazy, and are leeching off of the family dole their retired or near-retiring parents have worked hard to fund. They have a good thing, too. LOL I wouldn't leave, either, if I could turn my parents into puppets of personal convenience!

 

But for some of us, we truly just enjoy our family. We love sharing resources - if not altruistically, than because it benefits us individually and as a group. Win, win. Staying at home in my 20s allowed me to invest my money into real estate all the same - except I came to own a number of properties that were paid for by other people, following my initial investment! It allowed me to gamble big while I was young and build up a sizeable nest egg - pay cash for the home of my own when that time came, to retire in my 30s, and to live debt-free. It allowed my brother to earn a PhD without any student debt WHILE supporting a SAHW; he paid cash for their marital home, took unpaid leave from work to earn his PhD and spent the first five years of his kids' lives at home with them and his wife w/o need of a paycheck.

 

We have a good family; solid relationships and explicit expectations. This is why staying at home works for us. For the life of me, outside of being able to walk around naked from time to time without fear of scaring the parents - I don't understand why unmarried adults in their 20s are so eager to be out on their own. I mean, I get it intellectually but I just don't get it. LOL Well, not entirely true - some people's families would have be running towards independence also. :)

[Erin]

These FTL are a population of adults who are simply lazy, and are leeching off of the family dole their retired or near-retiring parents have worked hard to fund. They have a good thing, too. LOL I wouldn't leave, either, if I could turn my parents into puppets of personal convenience!

And of course this is what separates this trend from that of living with one's parents til marriage, in generations past.  Guaranteed, in years gone by, an early-mid 20s son/daughter was not complaining about the poor job market, sponging off Mom and Dad, and playing Black Ops til 3AM... ;)

[SKL]

One symptom that strikes me is how many well-meaning parents will hold their kids back in school so that they are older when they go to high school and/or college.

[Χά�ων]

One symptom that strikes me is how many well-meaning parents will hold their kids back in school so that they are older when they go to high school and/or college.

:confused1:  :confused1:  Wait, haven't you been posting about how your DD's (maybe just one?) are struggling in school this year? Seems like I have read a lot of your posts about that. 

[SKL]

:confused1:  :confused1:  Wait, haven't you been posting about how your DD's (maybe just one?) are struggling in school this year? Seems like I have read a lot of your posts about that. 

 

What does that have to do with anything?

 

I'm talking about parents who state that their child is being held back because the parent does not like the idea of them being young in high school / college.  Not because they are struggling in school.

 

[Dory]

nm

[swellmomma]

I think that a lot of the trend towards overprotective parenting has to do with a backlash towards 1970's style lenient parenting... I know many people in their 30s and 40s who grew up in the 70s/early 80s and are HORRIFIED at what their parents let them do, how little their parents knew about what was going on in their lives, how little supervision they had.  I think it's easy to romanticize the days when "kids played all day outside without any supervision, parents never knew where they were" or "parents worked, so the elementary school kids took care of themselves after school and made dinner" and think about how independent kids were.  But the truth is that I know an awful lot of people who had really bad experiences as children in that position.  Terrible bullying, tragic accidents, sexual predators, and even just loneliness and jealousy.  So I think the pendulum has swung in the other direction, probably too far.  Better technology also allows us to keep a better eye on our kids, in a way that wasn't even possible then.

 

I'm sure the pendulum will swing back soon.

 

Yup.  It's funny I recently had a discussion with my mother about this.  About the lack of any sort of supervision and oversight growing up.  Dropped off on solo dates as young as 7, caring for my younger siblings starting at 9, preparing dinner, doing the house work etc.  My mom made a comment about when I was in high school and how involved she was in my course selection.  I started laughing.  My mom still thinks I studied physics, nope I dropped grade 11 physics 2 weeks in and took foods, I never attended my grade 12 chemistry course ever (but passed the course), skipped a lot of school to help out in drama, or nap and drink slurpies or hang out with friends etc and my mom never knew.  She thought I was this stellar student taking all the right courses, but she never knew what what going on in my life.  As long she she didn't actively catch me making out in her house and I got home by curfew she didn't care, but even when I missed curfew nothing really happened.  I want different for my kids.  They have appropriate freedoms and responsibilities for their abilities, and we are not in constant contact since we don't use cell phones, but I have been more incremental in what I allow, and have way more input over all into major descisions, courses chosen etc.

[Ripley]

I grew up in the 80s, but I lived in a multi-generational home with a bunch of Asians. And my neighbors were multi-generational homes with other bunches of Asians who apparently had my parents on speed dial. :thumbdown: If I so much as picked my nose by the wrong window, the entire block found out and would tsk tsk me. I was so envious of my best friend - a quiet little white girl, two working parents, and she got to come home to an empty, quiet house and no adult oversight. From the time we were in second grade all of the way through junior high, she did this. Oh how we envied each other. LOL

 

She and I are still great friends, and our oldest are now teenagers. Her style of parenting is very different to that of her own parents - she's not mad at her parents, but she often expresses disdain and disgust at how little oversight they showed over her. She talks about seeing movies she was too young for, etc. And it's true that she is highly controlling about the movies and books her own kids are exposed to. Very interesting about the pendulum theory! It seems to fit the way she and I grew up, and consequently chose to parent.

[Laura Corin]

 

I look at what was expected of kids a few generations ago and what is expected now...I think "developmentally appropriate" is almost always younger than what people today think it is.  

 

I'm reading Sons and Lovers at the moment.  Paul Morel goes for interview to be a clerk accompanied by his mother.  I was a bit surprised by this, then realised that he is thirteen.  He gets the job and from then on is working twelve hour days (dropping to ten hours later, I think), going back and forwards to the town by train...  His parents are not neglectful - he is just expected to work at that age.  When I look at my 'Hobbes', it's hard to imagine.  But I think he could do it, if it was a societal expectation.

 

L

[Melissa in Australia]

I don't really understand why it's so important for them to, to the point that people who aren't involved are horrified?  The idea that you leave home at 18 and set up your own household is largely a US post-war trend, made possibly by cheap housing stock and government incentives.  It was not the norm before that period, nor is it still the norm in many places.

 

My parents actually left the country when I was 18, so I was left more alone in many ways than most of my peers.  It was what it was, but it certainly doesn't make me morally superior to someone in their 20s living at home, helping out their parents, and saving money.  The US economy would be in better shape if everyone weren't so desperate to appear independent and successful, and spent a little more energy on cost-saving measures such as intergenerational living.

 

I don't necessary agree with the bolded.

 Historically in most places people were getting married at around 18 or before. Getting married later is  pretty new 

[creekland]

Some of us look back with fondness, not horror though.

 

I'm one of them!  I loved my time alone or with my sister - exploring and generally having fun.  I have distinct memories from being 3 (she was 4 and not in school), 5 (when I came home early - latchkey - due to kindergarten getting out earlier than the rest of the school - my parents PREFERRED if I played outside as I tended to make a mess inside - paper mache anyone? ;) ), and 8+ (when we got our ponies).  When I was 11 my parents divorced and my sister and I were split up.  I lived with my dad - she with my mom.  I got to stay at home and REALLY expanded my outdoor and horseback riding pursuits - all alone at that point (except in my later teens when I worked at riding stables).  If any cooking was to be done at home, I did it. Dad and I ate out a fair bit, but I also learned how to cook.  Ditto with my doing the cleaning if it was to be done (which means the house wasn't very clean).  This started at 11 years of age.

 

I don't look back fondly on the divorce or the split with my sister.  I tend to rarely think about details associated with that.

 

To this day I still prefer the great outdoors to the great indoors and I fondly look back on that part of childhood.  Without it I don't know that I'd have survived, esp mentally.  It's helped make me who I am (allowing for the genetics to predispose me that way).

 

 

 

 

This is the first thing I've read in a good while that actually makes me happy to live in my developing, post-communist country. A dear friend of mine has six kids, ranging from 4 to 20. Since her husband travels for work and she actually works in a neighboring country during the week, the older kids are often called upon to look after the younger ones for up to a week at a time. This is normal here. And it makes for extremely close sibling bonds.

 

It would be normal here.  At school there are some teens who take care of their younger siblings while the parents work.  It's not always a legal problem.

 

Yep. When I was in high school I was big into sociology and I found the differences in expectations in young (under 5) children to be fascinating. In some cultures, 2 year olds were given large knives (think machete) and left to practice using them and were not only able to use them safely but were even aware of a toddler walking by and automatically adjusted their swings to ensure they did not hit the toddler. When I was 8 a friend of the families 16 year old daughter came over for dinner and did not even know how to cut up her steak because her never allowed any of the children to use knives. They actually kept the knives locked up. The youngest child was 8. 

 

I recall an article about Little House on the Prairie series and how Mary, at the age of 5, was left to care for Laura while Ma and Pa went into town. I found that really interesting. Figure there were no cell phones and no way to contact them if there was an issue and no way for Ma and Pa to hurry back and rescue her if there was an issue.

 

I can relate... ;)  My folks were always home (someone was) when we were young, but we sure were allowed to explore quite a bit.  We've done the same with our kids.  They didn't have machetes unless they were helping us whack weeds around the fenceline, but they had pocket knives pretty early.

 

I do not look back in horror at what my parents let me do. My parents were gone 7 am - 7 pm. My siblings and I were latchkey children in the early 70s well before daycare was contemplated. The house was clean and dinner was on the table every night at 7. We were independent and very responsible. We also did stuff that we probably shouldn't have. 

 

...

 

I really appreciate the independence and responsibility I developed. 

 

...

 

My parents didn't shirk parenting duties. My siblings and I certainly knew there were expectations. And we knew education was very important. Good grades were essential. 

 

I suspect where some people may have gone off the rails is where no expectations and responsibilities were communicated. But there are children today who have hovering parents and no responsibilities. I actually think the kid in the 70s without responsibilities was better off because that kid at least had to make decisions for himself throughout the day. A child today without responsiblities and a hovering parent grows up practicing no skills that will help him live independently. 

 

Anyway, not every child of the 70s is horrified by his/her upbringing. 

 

:iagree:   Except my sister and I weren't all that great with the cleaning.  Until my parents divorced, my mom also did the cooking.  Other than that, we weren't much different.  My parents did teach us a ton about ethics and social skills - expectations, etc.  The one time I recall being a young vandal - destroying some skeet materials we had come across, dad really lit into us (verbally).  We NEVER did such a thing again and I still recall his words of wisdom as to why one SHOULDN'T destroy other people's things "just because."  (Golden rule stuff.)  We had parents.  We just also had freedom.  I love freedom... maybe a little too much. ;)

[Heather in Neverland]

Two random thoughts....

 

1. I find it interesting how many of us took care of younger siblings even though we were quite young and that many do not find this odd or inappropriate, yet any time a thread mentions how the older Duggar children help with caring for the younger ones people freak out about it.

 

2. Living with your parents is actually the norm here in Asian culture including married couples with children. They care for their older parents and the older parents help with the grandkids. It is economically smart and contributes to strong family bonds. In my dreams I own a huge home and me and my brothers live there with our spouses and children and my mom. I would love it!

[Soror]

I loved roaming and playing on my own as a kid as well, it was wonderful. I never got the sense that my parents weren't there if I needed them. I wish my mom could have been home more but that was the reality of life, it wasn't because she didn't want to be though. We did work as kids as well but a lot we did together, everyone pitched in (and that is what I aim for here as well). We all pitch in because we all make the mess, we all work as we are able though. My (recently turned) 4yo cannot do much yet and needs specific jobs but she loves to help. My dh on the otherhand does hold some resentment as he had a disproportionate amount of work compared to his sister, who was babied in general, and he was left taking care of it all while his dad worked. So, he is cautious about adding too much as he remembers that resentment. 

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with kids staying home later in general. I think it can be absolutely wonderful. I wish that I lived closer to my own parents and I see that as a positive. It is not positive though for parents or kids when there is an extreme dependence, whether they kids are at home or "on their own." This situation is detrimental when adults are prevented from learning basic skills to function. If an adult is living at home it is not a good thing for them to do nothing to contribute to the household. It is not helpful to any parties involved when parents continue to financially support children who live away from home either. I'm not looking at pushing my kids out the door at 18 as I don't think that is the smartest idea for their financial future but I would expect that as they get older they will continue to increase their responsibilities pitching in to the running of the house.

[Danestress]

I think what is most interesting to me about these discussions is the deeply engrained belief that mothers are responsible for forming the personalities and characters of their children, and that all of our choices are therefore terribly important. Fail to teach your child to do laundry and cook? Great, lack of soft skills will result in college age trauma and probably failure to thrive! Lol. And you can blame the mom for that.

 

My mom was the quintessential neglectful 70's stay at home mom. She was always home, a great cook, etc. She hardly ever let her daughters step foot in the kitchen because we might mess it up. She would never let us do Laundry. No way. Our job was to make good grades and stay out of her hair. That's it. And we all did it, all went to college, all graduated in four years and all went to graduate school. We can all cook and do laundry and keep track of money, too. We are all different personality wise, and I am quite sure I never occurred to my mother that motherhood carried the massive weight into the teen aged years that mothers now feel. I think she highly valued book type education and raising us in comfort, and the rest was up to us. And I am editing this to add that I adore my mother and that unlike a lot of mothers today, she always found time to read extensively, take care of herself, and spend a lot of time on her marriage. Those things seem like better gifts to me than learning to do laundry, which of course I figured out on my own.

 

I don't know for sure. But my guess is that my grandmothers would have found these parenting debates quite foreign.

[Carrie12345]

 

1. I find it interesting how many of us took care of younger siblings even though we were quite young and that many do not find this odd or inappropriate, yet any time a thread mentions how the older Duggar children help with caring for the younger ones people freak out about it.

 

 

It is an interesting point, but I'm guessing most people's experience "taking care of" siblings was much different.

For one, I only had 2 siblings. I was often charged with keeping them alive from 2:30-6, or reaching cereal bowls in the morning, or helping with the rare school assignment, and other limited start-and-stop tasks.

 

I was never in charge of a sibling's daily hygiene, meals for 20, monitoring whole educations, etc.  And my siblings (3 and 7 years younger) grew up and took on responsibility without a new sibling taking their "slot".  By the time I was 16, the youngest was 9 and relatively self-sufficient. Apart from some night or weekend babysitting and just being (or trying to be) a fun, loving big sister, I no longer had any major child-rearing duties.

[lmrich]

I have had two ankle surgeries and had to use a wheelchair and crutches. My kids learned to do their laundry, cook a dinner, go to the grocery with the neighbor etc... My son got a lead in a play and found rides there. He was my oldest in 6th grade. Kids can do a lot more when they are expected to,,or have to.

 

I remember I let my kids ride their bikes to the store a mile away on a road with bike lanes. My neighbors were horrified. My oldest two went together; they were 15 and 13 at the time.

[JumpyTheFrog]

There's a big difference between watching a younger sibling after school and doing all the childcare for a baby or toddler all day long, year after year.

[Carrie12345]

My own kids are just as capable as I was in many ways, but there are also aspects of sheltering that I've never been able to get the hang of working around.  I grew up in a small, suburban town that was seemingly built to encourage independence. And I spent my summers in a truly idyllic environment.  Very few of the freedoms I was afforded are replicable where we live now.  I try, but it's just not the same.

 

I'm guessing it's the same way with people who move to or from big city life. If you've rarely ridden a subway, you're probably unlikely to casually hand your kid a metro pass.  If you've grown up shooting rifles, you might not understand why other parents look at you funny at the mere mention of it.

[Pamela H in Texas]

We could just balance it out a bit.  

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with a 20yo living at home.  In fact, I think there are some good things about it.  However, 20, at home, shouldn't mean playing video games and demanding more Monster drinks.  It should include schooling, work, socialization, etc on top of family responsibilities and opportunities. 

 

I think it is very odd that we allow cliques (how uncool my neighbor's almost 8yo is because she doesn't do cheer) or encourage swooning over Justin Beiber while the same child is unable to vacuum the living room or empty the dishwasher.  

 

Of course, we're all going to balance it differently also.  Some will have to do with other factors, things we can't control (now or ever).  

 

For example, here, Kindy is extremely academic and advanced.  There is no way my 5yo could have done Kindy this year.  Knowing that makes me wise, not "holding him back."  No, his FASD, attachment disorder, anxiety, and general maturity holds him back.  I'm simply allowing him to enjoy the year as a preschooler like he really is. 

 

In some places, an 8yo may be able to walk up to a nearby store.  In others, at least go around the block.  In yet others, she couldn't leave the yard safely.  Of course, is the child developmentally on track?  Is she healthy enough to do the level safe for the area?  In our case, fostering has really held us back because the rules are strangely strict (seriously, I cannot even have bar soap because they may eat it @@).  We broke the rules by letting my son and a 15yo respite kid ride bikes down to the lake.  Give me a break.  They are teens with cell phones.  I think they can go to the other side of the subdivision without me up their butts!

 

Anyway, so I like the threads on here that give people the range and consensus of different things, but each person really should be, imo, be thinking if each opinion is really encouraging kids autonomy, if it is truly safe and healthy, if it is reasonable, etc.  Ideally, I kinda think we should be coming out with a much more compact spectrum than we do.  

[creekland]

 

I'm guessing it's the same way with people who move to or from big city life. If you've rarely ridden a subway, you're probably unlikely to casually hand your kid a metro pass.  If you've grown up shooting rifles, you might not understand why other parents look at you funny at the mere mention of it.

 

:iagree:  and it's a big part of why we travel and let our kids get experiences they can't get around here - even the experience of seeing an ocean - from more than one spot.  My list of things I wish every kid could experience or see is often far different than others...

 

Many here would probably gasp at how young our kids handled rifles and shotguns.  Suffice it to say the hunting age (with an adult) is rather young and they need to know how to shoot first.  My kids have been killing nuisance ground hogs without adults around.  Squirrels too.

 

But they can do this on a farm and no one thinks anything of it.  Can't happen in a city.

 

Around here if someone hears a loud bang and goes out to see it, they come back in saying, "Oh it's nothing - just a guy with a gun."  I doubt you'd get the same reaction in a city or suburb.

 

(Most times we know the guy, occasionally we don't but assume he's a friend of someone.)

 

[momma2three]

I don't necessary agree with the bolded.

 Historically in most places people were getting married at around 18 or before. Getting married later is  pretty new 

 

Yes, but historically it was very rare for newly married couples to set up their own household.  The wealthy could afford to do that, but while the wealthy might get disproportionate publicity, they have never been the majority.  Everyone else either brought their new spouse into their family's current household, or moved to their new spouse's family's household.  This was not uncommon, anywhere in the world.  This changed in the US in the post-WWII period when the VA bill meant that almost any young man could get an affordable mortgage to buy one of the tiny suburban houses sprouting up around the country.

[Heather in Neverland]

It is an interesting point, but I'm guessing most people's experience "taking care of" siblings was much different.

For one, I only had 2 siblings. I was often charged with keeping them alive from 2:30-6, or reaching cereal bowls in the morning, or helping with the rare school assignment, and other limited start-and-stop tasks.

 

I was never in charge of a sibling's daily hygiene, meals for 20, monitoring whole educations, etc. And my siblings (3 and 7 years younger) grew up and took on responsibility without a new sibling taking their "slot". By the time I was 16, the youngest was 9 and relatively self-sufficient. Apart from some night or weekend babysitting and just being (or trying to be) a fun, loving big sister, I no longer had any major child-rearing duties.

I have two younger siblings as well but starting at age 11, I was responsible for them both all day, every day during the summer months. My parents both worked and I cooked, cleaned, and took care of two little children for 10 hours a day even though I was still a child myself. Was that wrong?

At age 17 my mother cared for 6 younger siblings as her mother worked (her father had recently died). Was that wrong? Some would say she learned a lot of life skills. I guess it depends on who you ask.

[Catherine]

Just want to chime in that 1. suburban living can be a bit of a hindrance to developing independence (more on that later) and 2. individual personality factors play a role. I have one child (the only one who's never been to school-hmmm) who shows far far more motivation, ambition, and future-orientation than my other two. And that has been the case since he was very young-less than 5. Yes, I think he probably got a boost in maturity from not having been in regular school, but I also think he is just plain more of a go-getter. I don't perceive that I raised him much differently from his brothers, though honestly I probably was a bit stricter than with the other two.

 

I have had to make my peace with risk taking. I do feel afraid when he rides his bike on our neighborhood streets-there are city buses, cars that go too fast, but I have had to ignore that fearful voice in my head because I do believe that nurturing his independence is more important than guaranteeing his absolute safety at all times. I insist in a helmet, that I know where he is going, and that he never go into any house without contacting me first.

 

But there are so many scarier parts of my current life than that I grew up with in the country. Driving, for one. It is far more intimidating to drive here than on deserted country roads. There are more negative social influences here than in the country. But to get back to the issue at hand, I think that encouraging independence in a child is about making peace with exposing them to risk. There are risks to every living situation, every family situation, every place on earth and they are not all ever within our control. For me, making that peace is the biggest challenge.