Can third grade still be gentle or does it need to be kicked up a notch?

[lorisuewho]

I'm starting to think a lot about third grade for next year. My oldest is probably pretty average compared to other children on the WTM. He is not advanced; he is not behind.

 

I'm so happy with our second grade year, other than Latin. Everything went smoothly and we are both relaxed and enjoying learning. I have a couple of hang ups moving into third grade.

 

I thought we were going to do Latin and that would cover grammar, but since our disaster with Prima Latina this year, I don't know what to do.

 

LATIN: Should I do Latin in third grade with Prima? With GSWL? Can we just not do Latin until fourth?

 

GRAMMAR: If I don't do Latin, then should I do grammar? Does it need to be solid grammar or can I just do something gentle like Language Lessons through Literature?

 

WRITING: Can I just continue with Writing with Ease 3 and basic narration, copywork, and dictation, or is this no longer enough in third? Should I be doing something more formal?

 

READING: Can we just continue to read good books and discuss them or do I need to be doing something more formal?

 

Is there a point that I can't continue in our simple way and need to step it up? Is third grade that time?

[maize]

I think your gentler plan sounds fine. I don't actually introduce formal grammar until fourth grade, nor do we do formal literature or writing programs before that. Reading, being read to, copy work, and typing practice make up our language arts. We do conversational foreign language. You could certainly wait on Latin, or you could use GSWL. I haven't used it, but my oldest did the first half or so of GSWS in third grade and I assume the Latin program is similar.

[DianeW88]

Well...I think I'll start out by saying that everything in your school shouldn't be easy, fun, relaxing and smooth.  Children need to be challenged with the material you're using.  If your child understands everything immediately, and gets all the right answers the first time...your material isn't hard enough, and your child won't be learning.  You will also end up with a child who can be prone to melt downs when they are met with a problem they can't solve, or a curriculum where they don't know the answer immediately.  I'm not saying that's what is happening here, because I have no idea.  But I do know parents who have unintentionally done this, and then are very sorry later on.

 

Secondly, yes, third grade is a step up.  Your child should be reading fluently at this point, so you can now move on to pursue subjects more "deeply".  If you want to do Latin, the younger, the better.  Grammar should be a separate subject (and I started that in 1st grade with FLL).  My Language Arts in third grade consisted of grammar, WWE, spelling, and phonics, as well as reading aloud by my child.  We also did Math, Latin, another foreign language of the child's choice, typing/keyboarding, History, Science, and Art & Composers.  Third grade is a fun year, where most kids are still cooperative and eager to learn, but they should be challenged on a daily basis.  Balance out difficult to master material with things your child enjoys, and it will be fine.

[Snow]

:lurk5: great question. We are still in the first half of 2nd grade, but I'm thinking about what needs to change for next year....I don't want to change much!

[Snow]

One thing you didn't mention was spelling....have you started a formal spelling program? US geography and history? It seems like a lot of people start USA stuff in third.

[8filltheheart]

In third grade I start transitioning my kids from learning to read to reading to learn. They start reading science and history.

 

Writing transitions from copywork for learning basic grammar and sentence structure to copywork for proper paragraph structure transitioning later in the year to simple paragraph writing. Grammar instruction continues at a higher level. I expect to see more correct spelling and mechanics.

 

I disagree that the earlier one starts Latin the better. Latin is grammar based. W/o understanding grammar, Latin instruction is limited. I would not worry about Latin until 4th at the earliest for really strong students and 6th for more avg students.

[DianeW88]

 

I disagree that the earlier one starts Latin the better. Latin is grammar based. W/o understanding grammar, Latin instruction is limited. I would not worry about Latin until 4th at the earliest for really strong students and 6th for more avg students.

 

We did fun Latin in first and second grade.  Song School Latin.  I don't want anyone to think I'm forcing Latin grammar drills on six year olds.  LOL  It was mostly for vocabulary and to get a feel for the language.  We sang everything. :D

 

[ScoutTN]

We have definitely upped the ante in 3rd. Similar to what 8 said in terms of progression in writing and grammar. DD writes some of her narrations now and does more independent reading. I choose some more difficult reading (for her, upper middle school level) which interests her to keep her challenged in that way - both fiction and nonfiction books. 

 

We are doing Song School Latin and it is vocabulary and learning some forms. Very gentle. 

 

[lorisuewho]

One thing you didn't mention was spelling....have you started a formal spelling program? US geography and history? It seems like a lot of people start USA stuff in third.

I'm sorry to confuse. I only listed those areas where I am still grappling on the difficulty level.

 

For third (tentative of course)

Spelling: Rod and staff level 3

Arithmetic: Rod and Staff

Math supplement: MEP and Challenging word problems

History: Veritas Press Self-paced

Science: Self-directed with library books and keeping a science journal

Geography: Continue learning the locations of countries around the world

Other: Bible, Read aloud, poetry, hymn study, nature study, picture study, composer study, art

 

I'm just really hung on up where reading, writing, grammar, language needs to go and how much it needs to be ramped up.

[Snow]

Oh, I see. Will continue listening in!

[Chrysalis Academy]

In third grade I start transitioning my kids from learning to read to reading to learn. They start reading science and history.

 

Writing transitions from copywork for learning basic grammar and sentence structure to copywork for proper paragraph structure transitioning later in the year to simple paragraph writing. Grammar instruction continues at a higher level. I expect to see more correct spelling and mechanics.

 

I disagree that the earlier one starts Latin the better. Latin is grammar based. W/o understanding grammar, Latin instruction is limited. I would not worry about Latin until 4th at the earliest for really strong students and 6th for more avg students.

 

8, with copywork for learning proper paragraph structure, are you having them copy whole paragraphs and then analyzing (topic sentence, supporting sentences, etc.)?  What else are you analyzing about paragraphs - word choice? Are you making up the paragraphs, or using paragraphs from their reading?

 

Are they doing any writing about their science and history reading, or are you just discussing it?  I hate to say "just" discussing it as if that isn't valuable, but you know what I mean, right? I'm trying to get at whether you are having them write in their content subjects at this point.

[Ellie]

Children are ages, not grade levels. If you think your 8yo can do more academically, then go for it. :-)

[ondreeuh]

From the looks of the samples on Amazon, the grammar in LLTL 3 seems like plenty to me. In fact it looks on par with FLL 3 or GWG 3. LLTL also includes copywork and studied dictation. It's sort of like WWE and FLL rolled up into one, with just 3 lessons a week and quality literature.

 

I don't think LLTL has real lit study (story elements, plot development, comprehension questions, writing assignments) but I would start working that in in 3rd grade. You could get some $1 Scholastic lit guides to start, choosing whichever books you like. If you want to study the lit in LLTL 3 (The Story of Dr. Dolittle, Marvelous Land of Oz, Beautiful Stories from Shakespeare, The Secret Garden, The Princess and the Goblin) you will have to search a bit.

[dbmamaz]

I step it up when it seems like its too easy, being done too quickly, not interesting, or i just feel we need something more.  But I base that on my child and what he seems ready for, not a number like age or grade, and not what other people are doing in their homeschool.

[roanna]

I am not a WTM guru but something SWB said in the book really helped me. She states that whateveryour child's weakness is you should spend more time in that. My son is weak in math so I put more effort into that in our day. He is good at spelling and LA so I dont use a real curriculum for that, we do copywork and soon dictation. I would trust your instincts about her.  

 

She also had basic guidelines for writing etc that helped like by the age of .... child should be able to write....  

 

I have a friend that has been doing hardcore grammar and writing for her kids since 1st grade.  I have at times felt that maybe I was being too easy on my son but, I know him, and that despite what age 7, 9, 10 I start having him write his own paragraphs/papers that he will do well so I stopped comparing what other people were doing in that area.  

[EmilyGF]

Listening in, since I have a 3rd grader...

 

Emily

[Hunter]

Students progress at different rates in different subjects. If we are instructing multiple students, we can compile a default curriculum for OUR benefit to organize our materials and ourselves, but we cannot expect all students to move through it at the same rate.

 

Ambleside online doesn't introduce Latin and grammar until years 4-6, and it is considered a big step up. Such a big step up that a year 3.5 was designed for all the students not ready to start the Latin, grammar, writing, Plutarch, Shakespeare etc. expected in years 4-6.

 

Lori. do you know some Latin yourself, or are you learning alongside your son? I'm really struggling to learn how to teach English grammar before Latin grammar, as both my boys and myself learned Latin first.

 

My oldest dropped Latin early. I have students that just are not best served by learning Latin. I'm having to learn to adjust my ways. I am not a student centered instructor, but I do know when I need to adjust and tweak my default plans, as well as tweak and adjust for individual students. A Latin/Greek centered language arts program just isn't even working as my default curriculum, and I'm having to let that go, not without pain and withdrawal symptoms, though.

[happypamama]

I am really liking the amount of grammar that my current third grader is absorbing just from doing WWE3 and GSWL. We started Latin in third with DD because she was begging to learn it, and now that DS1 is reading well, he is enjoying GSWL as well. I think it's an excellent book, but maybe it's just a really good fit for my family? Have I lent it to you? I can't remember, but if not, you're welcome to borrow it and see what you think (and if you hold off another year, you're welcome to use it when DS1 finishes it, sometime next year). I didn't do any formal grammar or punctuation with DD, and she uses them correctly in her writing and blew away those parts on the standardized tests. I hope the same will happen with DS1, but I may (depending on what his scores say this spring) need to do a bit more focused work with him because he just hasn't been reading as long as DD had by this point and may not have absorbed enough.

 

Third grade is a step up in my house, because for my older kids, it's the first official reporting year. But I think my third grader is having a good year. He seems happy, and he's learning a lot. I think he's reasonably challenged but not overwhelmed. His challenges this year have been in terms of working independently (this one, he is my velcro baby, the one who never wanted to leave my side, so stepping up to be a big kid to do his work has been good for him), reading more to himself and not having me read it all to him.

[Amy M]

I was just reading the WTM grammar stage chapter on LA as I prepare to begin 2nd grade with my oldest. I wanted a feel for the expectations as well. So since 3rd grade was right by it, here's what SWB said (and some of the writing section depends on whether you use Writing Strands or WWE or iEW):

 

Grammar, 20-30 min: R&S or FLL3 or other.

Reading, 30 min: Structured reading (by which she means reading aloud to you lit that ties in somehow to the historical period you're studying + narrating the plot back to you and writing it down himself without the intermediate step of dictating and then copying. "In short, he'll have gradually worked his way up to doing book reports." + memorize 12-15 poems or speeches during th year). Schedule 30-60 min at another time for fun reading (I believe you're still picking out the lit for this though, but it's easier than the lit he's reading to you during reading time.

Writing, 20-30 min: in cursive now. Dictation 3 days na week and regular narrations from history, sci, and lit, suggestins for levels from suggested curricula...

 

there, I'm sorry, I wasn't very careful about quotes or typos. Latin, she says to start in 3rd or 4th with Prima Latina or Bib book of lively Latin. HTH!

[My3girls]

I will have 2 3rd graders next year. My language arts plan is to continue FLL3, WWE3, SpellWell B/Bb, and ETC. I am planning to start Writing and Rhetoric, as well. As for reading, we will just continue to read classics together. My main goal is to develop a love of reading. We have already introduced plot, setting, and main characters. We'll probably just continue with that informally. I don't plan to formally study literature until 8th grade.

[lorisuewho]

Lori. do you know some Latin yourself, or are you learning alongside your son? I'm really struggling to learn how to teach English grammar before Latin grammar, as both my boys and myself learned Latin first.

This is the root of the problem. I thought we would just be Latin-centered and therefore not have to do official English grammar because we would pick it up through Latin. Now that we have had a Latin meltdown in our home. I'm thinking of putting it off until 4th grade and restarting then. That leaves me with having to seriously consider how much formal English grammar I now need to pick up.

 

I feel I make my boys work hard and have high expectations, but that doesn't mean I want them to drown in drudgery. I think I'm having my first (and hopefully only) curriculum/methodology crisis of the school year).

 

Hunter, this year we are using Climbing to Good English. I think I'll jump ship over to Rod and Staff and/or LLtL for next year though.

[Farrar]

We're only in fourth grade now, but I saw third as a sort of transition - in particular for doing, as 8 said, to get them reading to learn, but also just generally.  It's this year for fourth grade that we've upped the academics a bit more.  Though it has been more of a slow progression.  And I see them changing in their learning needs so much more this year than last year in third grade.

[lorisuewho]

I am really liking the amount of grammar that my current third grader is absorbing just from doing WWE3 and GSWL. We started Latin in third with DD because she was begging to learn it, and now that DS1 is reading well, he is enjoying GSWL as well. I think it's an excellent book, but maybe it's just a really good fit for my family? Have I lent it to you? I can't remember, but if not, you're welcome to borrow it and see what you think (and if you hold off another year, you're welcome to use it when DS1 finishes it, sometime next year). I didn't do any formal grammar or punctuation with DD, and she uses them correctly in her writing and blew away those parts on the standardized tests. I hope the same will happen with DS1, but I may (depending on what his scores say this spring) need to do a bit more focused work with him because he just hasn't been reading as long as DD had by this point and may not have absorbed enough.

 

Third grade is a step up in my house, because for my older kids, it's the first official reporting year. But I think my third grader is having a good year. He seems happy, and he's learning a lot. I think he's reasonably challenged but not overwhelmed. His challenges this year have been in terms of working independently (this one, he is my velcro baby, the one who never wanted to leave my side, so stepping up to be a big kid to do his work has been good for him), reading more to himself and not having me read it all to him.

I need a personal third grade consultation with you! I DO own GSWL, but when I look through it the grammar seems to me really advanced for third grade, but maybe it builds gently and it happens naturally?? I would probably feel more comfortable waiting until 4th. Or maybe I should just wait 1/2 way through third?

[lorisuewho]

We're only in fourth grade now, but I saw third as a sort of transition - in particular for doing, as 8 said, to get them reading to learn, but also just generally.  It's this year for fourth grade that we've upped the academics a bit more.  Though it has been more of a slow progression.  And I see them changing in their learning needs so much more this year than last year in third grade.

I definitely feel more comfortable with this view because my boys don't seem ready to crazy up the academics for third. ON the other hand, we are only half way through second grade; maybe by summer I will have a different view.

[RootAnn]

LATIN: Should I do Latin in third grade with Prima? With GSWL? Can we just not do Latin until fourth?

 

I think you can hold off on Latin until 4th or even 5th if you want. GSWL is great, gentle starter program. You could also do a roots program instead, starting in 4th or 5th and hold off on Latin until later.

 

GRAMMAR: If I don't do Latin, then should I do grammar? Does it need to be solid grammar or can I just do something gentle like Language Lessons through Literature?

 

Were you already planning on doing LLtL? If so, there looks to be plenty of grammar in that. If not, how about starting with something gentle like Sentence Family or Grammarland? Or, if you like R&S, why not do their grammar orally?

 

WRITING: Can I just continue with Writing with Ease 3 and basic narration, copywork, and dictation, or is this no longer enough in third? Should I be doing something more formal?

 

Plenty of us think WWE3 is enough for writing in 3rd grade. Some kids get either bored or run into a wall with WWE3. That's when we start 'looking around.' Feel free to branch out from WWE3 if you are comfortable enough and have your kid do narration, copywork, and dictation in science and/or history instead of WWE for awhile.

 

READING: Can we just continue to read good books and discuss them or do I need to be doing something more formal?

 

Nothing more formal is necessary in 3rd!

 

Is there a point that I can't continue in our simple way and need to step it up? Is third grade that time?

 

I think you will find yourself 'stepping up' naturally. But, I'm a fan of simple. Keep going with simple as long as you can.

[8filltheheart]

8, with copywork for learning proper paragraph structure, are you having them copy whole paragraphs and then analyzing (topic sentence, supporting sentences, etc.)?  What else are you analyzing about paragraphs - word choice? Are you making up the paragraphs, or using paragraphs from their reading?

 

Are they doing any writing about their science and history reading, or are you just discussing it?  I hate to say "just" discussing it as if that isn't valuable, but you know what I mean, right? I'm trying to get at whether you are having them write in their content subjects at this point.

 

We start off with copying paragraphs that I select from their  history or science reading.  Non-fiction for paragraph writing is the way to go.  Sometimes I re-write paragraphs from the books to make them fit what I am teaching.   Sometimes I find paragraphs from old science readers on Gutenberg (then I can copy and paste them into word and print them up).

 

initially, we use highlighters to highlight topic and supporting details.   Eventually we work to transition words.   I print up paragraphs and cut them into strips and have them build the paragraphs by putting them in the correct order.   (as far as word choice, etc......that is all part of our discussion b/c we also tear the sentences apart for grammar)

 

Then I give them the topic sentence and help them come up with supporting details to write a paragraph.   Then I give them supporting details and help them come up with topic sentences.  (the most difficult skill.)

 

And I NEVER give my kids a topic like write a paragraph on penguins.   That is an absurd assignment.   Entire books are written on penguins.   Give them a topic that is narrow and can be covered in a paragraph.   If the topic is narrowed, they can start to have success with coming up with their own topic sentence.

 

Since writing comes from science or history, that is the only writing they do.   The rest is only through discussion.

[Hunter]

The more advanced my OWN Latin/Greek skills, the better able I was to instruct a struggling learner. I would work on your own Latin skills and leave it till 4th grade for the child.

 

Or if YOUR skills are advanced enough, you can just teach the Latin that presents the grammar you want to teach. With my youngest, I started with just a lot of 1st declension and present tense verbs, and I wrote my own stuff for him. Together we composed stories about a ghost and a wolf and little girl, and he drew pictures for them. The stories really did look cute hanging on the refrigerator. We were able to cover all the parts of speech with just 1st declension. Has it really been almost twenty years?  :crying:

 

School stuff is SO important, but just remember first and foremost to enjoy them. Time goes by so fast, and they are grown, and life happens, and just…enjoy them, because we never get promised a tomorrow with them. If I had it to do over again, I wish I could have some of the time I spent researching classical language materials as memories I spent WITH the boys.

 

I think a lot of children are capable of doing Latin, but not capable of using any of the prepared curriculum. Just let them draw and label pictures. Let them compose their own sentences using the words in their lessons. Have them see how many sentences they can come up with. My boys loved to write and illustrate the snarkiest sentences they could come up with, and show them off to each other. I could never afford good curricula, so I learned to flesh out whatever we had. Now I still flesh out even what is supposed to be good curricula.

 

I also try to create more stand alone lessons, where the student can just work on one thing, and not try to review and learn something new at the same time.

 

Lori, I find that with CGE a lot of the grammar can be skipped for children that HEAR proper English spoken. Then I double up on the lessons that they do need to cover. I repeat the writing lessons with something similar, following the ideas presented in the free teacher manual for Write On! By Karen Newell. 

http://www.kid-friendly-homeschool-curriculum.com/support-files/writeoninstructorsguide.pdf

 

I think LLtL has all the grammar covered. It's going to cover more grammar than I want to cover, I think. LLtL 3 is far more advanced than AO 3.

 

Today I have been looking at my CGE workbooks and samples of Spectrum LA and Spectrum Writing. Really, I think Spectrum grade 1 could keep my 1st year students (about 3rd grade with gaps) busy for a year.

http://www.carsondellosa.com/cd2/Products/Writing/Workbook/0769642810

 

Lori, what are your plans for cursive? When I teach, EVERYTHING hinges on what is going on with the handwriting. I really need to learn more about oral composition techniques, since I have decided to stick with cursive-first.

 

 

 

[happypamama]

I need a personal third grade consultation with you! I DO own GSWL, but when I look through it the grammar seems to me really advanced for third grade, but maybe it builds gently and it happens naturally?? I would probably feel more comfortable waiting until 4th. Or maybe I should just wait 1/2 way through third?

Well, you know I am always hoping for Mom's Night with y'all!

 

I feel like the grammar is gentle -- "here is the word for sailor; it's a person, so it's a noun; here is the word for poet, also a noun," and so on, but I also haven't compared it to anything else for thirdish grade, so IDK. Learning Latin gave DD some much-needed organizational skills, because as it progressed, she *always* looked for the verb first. I think she was halfway through third when we started it, right around her 9th birthday in the spring, and she has always been strong in her language skills. Also, languages are my strong area, so it was a big bonding thing for her and me (and continues to be, as we still are learning it together). I think waiting until fourth for your son could be very reasonable. Tbh, I didn't necessarily feel strongly about starting it with DS1 this year (and if he were a late birthday, I could have easily waited), but it made the two big kids' workloads come out even, so I gave it a shot, and it's working out well, even if we haven't gotten to as much of it as I would like (it's not my top priority).

 

It could also be a fun mid-third-grade addition.

 

We have done a bit of English From The Roots Up, and it's fun. The kids like thinking of all the words they know that have "photo" or whatever in them. We take a card at dinner and discuss it. Maybe that would be an option for you?

 

And also, whatever Hunter says. :)

[lorisuewho]

I think you can hold off on Latin until 4th or even 5th if you want. GSWL is great, gentle starter program. You could also do a roots program instead, starting in 4th or 5th and hold off on Latin until later.

 

 

Were you already planning on doing LLtL? If so, there looks to be plenty of grammar in that. If not, how about starting with something gentle like Sentence Family or Grammarland? Or, if you like R&S, why not do their grammar orally?

 

 

Plenty of us think WWE3 is enough for writing in 3rd grade. Some kids get either bored or run into a wall with WWE3. That's when we start 'looking around.' Feel free to branch out from WWE3 if you are comfortable enough and have your kid do narration, copywork, and dictation in science and/or history instead of WWE for awhile.

 

 

Nothing more formal is necessary in 3rd!

 

 

I think you will find yourself 'stepping up' naturally. But, I'm a fan of simple. Keep going with simple as long as you can.

Thank you for this!

 

 

We start off with copying paragraphs that I select from their  history or science reading.  Non-fiction for paragraph writing is the way to go.  Sometimes I re-write paragraphs from the books to make them fit what I am teaching.   Sometimes I find paragraphs from old science readers on Gutenberg (then I can copy and paste them into word and print them up).

 

initially, we use highlighters to highlight topic and supporting details.   Eventually we work to transition words.   I print up paragraphs and cut them into strips and have them build the paragraphs by putting them in the correct order.   (as far as word choice, etc......that is all part of our discussion b/c we also tear the sentences apart for grammar)

 

Then I give them the topic sentence and help them come up with supporting details to write a paragraph.   Then I give them supporting details and help them come up with topic sentences.  (the most difficult skill.)

 

And I NEVER give my kids a topic like write a paragraph on penguins.   That is an absurd assignment.   Entire books are written on penguins.   Give them a topic that is narrow and can be covered in a paragraph.   If the topic is narrowed, they can start to have success with coming up with their own topic sentence.

 

Since writing comes from science or history, that is the only writing they do.   The rest is only through discussion.

Wow! This is incredibly helpful and as a bonus sounds very do-able! Thank you for taking the time to write out what you do. I am very appreciative.

 

 

Lori, I find that with CGE a lot of the grammar can be skipped for children that HEAR proper English spoken. Then I double up on the lessons that they do need to cover. I repeat the writing lessons with something similar, following the ideas presented in the free teacher manual for Write On! By Karen Newell. 

http://www.kid-friendly-homeschool-curriculum.com/support-files/writeoninstructorsguide.pdf

 

I think LLtL has all the grammar covered. It's going to cover more grammar than I want to cover, I think. LLtL 3 is far more advanced than AO 3.

 

Today I have been looking at my CGE workbooks and samples of Spectrum LA and Spectrum Writing. Really, I think Spectrum grade 1 could keep my 1st year students (about 3rd grade with gaps) busy for a year.

http://www.carsondellosa.com/cd2/Products/Writing/Workbook/0769642810

 

Lori, what are your plans for cursive? When I teach, EVERYTHING hinges on what is going on with the handwriting. I really need to learn more about oral composition techniques, since I have decided to stick with cursive-first.

I will have to check out the link for the Spectrum books. I think after looking through the Rod and Staff there is less of the English-as-a-second-language lessons in it than there is in CGE. I really like CGE though and will continue to use it this year.

 

I have read through the LLtL books and I'm actually thinking about doing Level 2 with both my boys next year instead of doing Level 3. I don't want to burn myself out doing all these separate lessons with everyone. Do you think Level 2 is too easy for a third grader? Level 3 looks like I could make that work with both my boys, but I think they would like the literature selections in level 2 better.

 

I'm still sticking with Pentime for cursive. I really like it. I haven't seen the new HLtL yet, but as we have started with Pentime I will probably continue with it atleast for the boys. I don't know what I'm doing with DD1 for K next year. We are going to do RLtL because we should be done with LOE Foundations C by then and I think that will be a good match for her to move into that.

 

 

Well, you know I am always hoping for Mom's Night with y'all!

 

I feel like the grammar is gentle -- "here is the word for sailor; it's a person, so it's a noun; here is the word for poet, also a noun," and so on, but I also haven't compared it to anything else for thirdish grade, so IDK. Learning Latin gave DD some much-needed organizational skills, because as it progressed, she *always* looked for the verb first. I think she was halfway through third when we started it, right around her 9th birthday in the spring, and she has always been strong in her language skills. Also, languages are my strong area, so it was a big bonding thing for her and me (and continues to be, as we still are learning it together). I think waiting until fourth for your son could be very reasonable. Tbh, I didn't necessarily feel strongly about starting it with DS1 this year (and if he were a late birthday, I could have easily waited), but it made the two big kids' workloads come out even, so I gave it a shot, and it's working out well, even if we haven't gotten to as much of it as I would like (it's not my top priority).

 

It could also be a fun mid-third-grade addition.

 

We have done a bit of English From The Roots Up, and it's fun. The kids like thinking of all the words they know that have "photo" or whatever in them. We take a card at dinner and discuss it. Maybe that would be an option for you?

 

And also, whatever Hunter says. :)

We will have to have a knit night. Even J is starting to think about next year and what she wants to do, so we all could use some discussion time! I'm going to look up English from the Roots up. Thanks for the tip!

[happypamama]

 

We will have to have a knit night. Even J is starting to think about next year and what she wants to do, so we all could use some discussion time! I'm going to look up English from the Roots up. Thanks for the tip!

Name the date, and I will bring books and stuff for y'all to look at! And the baby!

[marlowefamily]

Prima Latin can be extremely easy - I wouldn't worry about having it as a third grade subject, especially if you just do 90 minutes of it every two-three weeks and let the child move at his own pace.  DVD essential. 

Overall, an easy 3rd grade I think is 2.5-3hrs/day and an aggressive third grade is 3-4hrs/day, divided into thirds - math, language arts/penmanship, and science/history.

 

 

[Hunter]

I will have to check out the link for the Spectrum books. I think after looking through the Rod and Staff there is less of the English-as-a-second-language lessons in it than there is in CGE. I really like CGE though and will continue to use it this year.

 

I have read through the LLtL books and I'm actually thinking about doing Level 2 with both my boys next year instead of doing Level 3. I don't want to burn myself out doing all these separate lessons with everyone. Do you think Level 2 is too easy for a third grader? Level 3 looks like I could make that work with both my boys, but I think they would like the literature selections in level 2 better.

 

I'm still sticking with Pentime for cursive. I really like it. I haven't seen the new HLtL yet, but as we have started with Pentime I will probably continue with it atleast for the boys. I don't know what I'm doing with DD1 for K next year. We are going to do RLtL because we should be done with LOE Foundations C by then and I think that will be a good match for her to move into that.

 

 

Stick with stuff that is working when it's working. I have all of CGE and it's good all the way up. I just don't want to cart the workbooks around, and students want to write in them, but not finish them. I've never seen R&S though, except for an older edition grade 8, which admittedly was very nice.

 

LLtL 2 is not too easy for grade 3! When we rush through the basics to get to the rarer and more abstract, we do students a big disfavor, by not allowing them to dwell on the most important topics. There is such rush rush now to prepare students for AP in high school. We have basically lopped 4 years off of school, and started college with 14 year olds. Not only is the work developmentally inappropriate in difficulty, but also in content, and it focuses on the rare instead of the common. Rare is not better than common!

 

A sentence starts with a capital and ends with an end mark. Capitalize all names. Use periods, question marks, exclamation marks, and quotation marks correctly. That and more is in LLtL level 1. Level 2 adds the parts of speech. Level 3 is already diagramming. Level 2 is enough for even a 4th grader.

 

Pentime is good. Stick with what is working. Does it introduce cursive in 2 or 3? Where are you with the transition? The transition can be like a monkey wrench in your plans for some kids, but not as drastic as cursive-first. At least a student always has printing to fall back on, if you allow it.

 

I don't believe in teaching LA topics ahead of what a student can write in the hand you have chosen. In general most students can write earlier in manuscript than cursive, due to multitasking and spelling issues that arise during writing the connections. Personally, unless the student is a strong speller and can quickly write in cursive, I believe in keeping the grammar and written composition light, and using more oral methods.

 

I don't even introduce quotation marks until after a student has gained some mastery of cursive. Basic capitalization and end marks is enough. But I do throw in parts of speech earlier than LLtL because they can be taught orally. My 3rd grade equivalents won't even be doing LLtL 1, and I'm paying attention to what is being written for LLtL 0 and looking at Spectrum K-2 and CGE 1 and 2.

 

The ORIGINAL montessori, free at archive.org, has some good physical and oral parts of speech ideas, that can be added to LLtL 0 or LLtL 1, for people doing them with older students. I'll look for the link.

 

I'm afraid all the rush rush is only going to get worse before it all crashes, and that the crash will only be worse because of how bad it got. Don't make decisions based on fear or pride. I'm not saying you are doing that! I just know that I have, and have regretted them.

 

I just wish someone had told me that using lower elementary stuff with a "gifted" kid was okay and sometimes preferable, if he hadn't done it yet. Even if he could complete the harder stuff. Focusing, without distractions of minutiae, on the common and most useful is sometimes better. My boys were in PS for the early years, so I didn't even know what quality lower level stuff was like. I didn't know what it was like to read/use things that were like hitting the bullseye of a target.

[Hunter]

Here is the Montessori book. Start reading on page 39.

https://archive.org/details/montessorielemen027888mbp

[skeeterbug]

School stuff is SO important, but just remember first and foremost to enjoy them. Time goes by so fast, and they are grown, and life happens, and just…enjoy them, because we never get promised a tomorrow with them. If I had it to do over again, I wish I could have some of the time I spent researching classical language materials as memories I spent WITH the boys.

 

Beautiful.  :wub:

[RootAnn]

Does she/you mean the child reads aloud to you for 30 mins? My dd (and I) would NOT enjoy this :( Also, is the child doing this sort of reading/writing as well as the other writing daily? I struggle with my dd (2nd grade now) to get basic writing done. She reads very well, fluently no worries there, and reads aloud well but doesn't much like it.

 

The reading is to herself, not out loud to you. I think the writing in TWTM was a specific curriculum (Writing Strands?), but she suggests WWE or doing the copywork/dictation across the curriculum. I think that writing is total - but I'm not sure if that includes handwriting. Can't remember!  :confused1:

 

Lori - I don't think LLtL 2 is too easy for a 3rd grader, but each 3rd grader is different. I have one that it would have been too much for & one that it would have been a little light for (but not too easy). 

[lifesadream83]

We kicked it up a notch in some ways and down in others.  My daughter is ahead in some areas and behind in others.  This is partially because I didn't bring her home until 2nd grade.

I'm starting to think a lot about third grade for next year. My oldest is probably pretty average compared to other children on the WTM. He is not advanced; he is not behind.

I'm so happy with our second grade year, other than Latin. Everything went smoothly and we are both relaxed and enjoying learning. I have a couple of hang ups moving into third grade.

I thought we were going to do Latin and that would cover grammar, but since our disaster with Prima Latina this year, I don't know what to do.

LATIN: Should I do Latin in third grade with Prima? With GSWL? Can we just not do Latin until fourth?

 

We started 4th Grade this year and we started Song School Latin 1.  We will do 2 next year and Latin for Children in Jr. followed by Latin Alive in High School.  It works out perfectly for us this way.  

GRAMMAR: If I don't do Latin, then should I do grammar? Does it need to be solid grammar or can I just do something gentle like Language Lessons through Literature?

 

We use First Language Lessons.  It is very gentle, 15 min of our day focused on memorization merely by repetition and it is completely scripted.  It has been fun this year watching her relate all the definitions and lists she knows and had fun learning being applied to things she is actually doing.  I started her in Level 2 in third grade and went directly to Level 4 this year and it has been a very smooth transition.  

WRITING: Can I just continue with Writing with Ease 3 and basic narration, copywork, and dictation, or is this no longer enough in third? Should I be doing something more formal?

 

I have dd copy a few sentences from what ever books she is reading (Sonlight 4-5 Readers), we do narration with history and then dictation is included in our First Language Lessons. 

READING: Can we just continue to read good books and discuss them or do I need to be doing something more formal?

 

Reading and discussing is perfect. 

Is there a point that I can't continue in our simple way and need to step it up? Is third grade that time?

 

When we finish First Language Lessons we will run through Sentences to Paragraphs  start Writing with Skill and Grammar Skills for 5th and 6th grade

 

If you look at a lot of homeschooling curriculum most are reading and asking questions (discussion), narrating and summarizing, analyzing and writing.  I highly recommend reading The Well Trained Mind.  I think it would ease many of your concerns.  

 

[SorrelZG]

I've been working on plans for third grade next year also. I'm leaning towards rereading the pertinent portion of TWTM again. I wanted to have DS write across the curriculum rather than continue with WWE3 next year but without access to a library, I'm a little in the wilderness regarding the curriculum he would be writing across.

 

I keep swinging wildly between feeling like DS is in a good place right now relative to the skill guidelines in TWTM, and having a panic attack due to feeling like I've entirely dropped the ball and messed up his K-2 by being so relaxed.

[alisoncooks]

Following this thread with interest.  I, too, am planning for an upcoming 3rd grader.

I tend to fall more onto the gentle side of things.  We'll be doing Sentence Family next year for grammar -- it'll be our first grammar exposure and I'm not worried.  We also use a gentle (or less rigorous) writing program (Just Write).  

I have K12's literature program waiting in the wings for 3rd, but I honestly don't know if we'll be ready for it.  DD is a struggling reader so we just take it one day at a time.  We might just be spending 3rd grade with Frog & Toad and Little Bear, if that's where she is...

[roanna]

  DD is a struggling reader so we just take it one day at a time.  We might just be spending 3rd grade with Frog & Toad and Little Bear, if that's where she is...

 

 

I think you sound like a good mom.  May as well not make her feel bad in the early years and have her feel awful for taking longer to get the hang of things.  I have heard too many stories of kids leaping at 9 or 10 and being totally up to par.  I strongly feel that any parent who is concerned about their child's education will end up giving their child a successful education.  It's the people who hand their kids school DVD's without any supervision for the day KNOWING they are not getting it done but continue to do it.  (I know people who do do the DVD's w/supervision and it works for them).  Only when a parent turns a blind eye I feel with the child fail.  

 

Not every kid needs to have a pre pre pre school program set up for them to get into Harvard.  

[8filltheheart]

DD is a struggling reader so we just take it one day at a time. We might just be spending 3rd grade with Frog & Toad and Little Bear, if that's where she is...

Allison, I just want to encourage you. My senior was at that reading level when he was in 3rd grade. I never let him know he was behind. We just kept plugging forward. And now, he is a very academically successful young man.

 

Have you looked at Dancing Bears and Apples and Pears spelling?

[8filltheheart]

Not every kid needs to have a pre pre pre school program set up for them to get into Harvard.

I don't think any child does. ;)

[lorisuewho]

LLtL 2 is not too easy for grade 3! When we rush through the basics to get to the rarer and more abstract, we do students a big disfavor, by not allowing them to dwell on the most important topics. There is such rush rush now to prepare students for AP in high school. We have basically lopped 4 years off of school, and started college with 14 year olds. Not only is the work developmentally inappropriate in difficulty, but also in content, and it focuses on the rare instead of the common. Rare is not better than common!

This! I have been thinking about this since I read it. Thank you.

 

 

Here is the Montessori book. Start reading on page 39.

https://archive.org/details/montessorielemen027888mbp

Downloaded the book and there are some EXCELLENT ideas in there for teaching grammar in a concrete way! What a gem!

 

 

Lori - I don't think LLtL 2 is too easy for a 3rd grader, but each 3rd grader is different. I have one that it would have been too much for & one that it would have been a little light for (but not too easy).

I keep reading through LLtL and even though it might not be as rigorous as Rod and Staff I think the content is just as solid. . .just not as repetitious. The book just really resonates with me. Thank you for your encouragement that it isn't too easy.

 

 

 

 

I've been working on plans for third grade next year also. I'm leaning towards rereading the pertinent portion of TWTM again. I wanted to have DS write across the curriculum rather than continue with WWE3 next year but without access to a library, I'm a little in the wilderness regarding the curriculum he would be writing across.

 

I keep swinging wildly between feeling like DS is in a good place right now relative to the skill guidelines in TWTM, and having a panic attack due to feeling like I've entirely dropped the ball and messed up his K-2 by being so relaxed.

I need to pull out TWTM again too! Time to reread!

[lorisuewho]

Thank you for all these responses; it has really helped me to think over what I see as rigor in the elementary years. I think I'm coming to peace with the idea that the third grade curriculum I put together can be challenging and rigorous without being tedious and repetitious and drudgery. "Simple, thoughtful, and challenging" is more the direction I need to head in, than looking at something and judging whether it is enough "work" or not. I need to figure out what language arts works for me in that direction. I also need to think I need to look more at using WWE across the subjects instead of as a subject itself. I'm so thankful for this community of homeschoolers that helps each other work through all these things.

[mmpmelmack]

"Simple, thoughtful, and challenging" .

I have really enjoyed this thread as well. Thank you to all the posters. The above really resonates with me. I kept plugging all the curriculum I thought I needed in to a schedule and it kept coming out with about 5 hours. I mean really 5 hours a day in third grade?! Simple , thoughtful and challenging! I think I will print that out to keep with me as I redo next year for us. Thank you!

[alisoncooks]

I think you sound like a good mom.  May as well not make her feel bad in the early years and have her feel awful for taking longer to get the hang of things.  I have heard too many stories of kids leaping at 9 or 10 and being totally up to par.  I strongly feel that any parent who is concerned about their child's education will end up giving their child a successful education.  It's the people who hand their kids school DVD's without any supervision for the day KNOWING they are not getting it done but continue to do it.  (I know people who do do the DVD's w/supervision and it works for them).  Only when a parent turns a blind eye I feel with the child fail.  

 

Not every kid needs to have a pre pre pre school program set up for them to get into Harvard.  

 

Thank you.  I admit that I struggle with it, but I saw a quote on FB recently that really resonated with me:

"Focus more on who your child is than what your child does.  Remember, you're growing a person, not fixing a problem."

(I need to read that daily...)

 

Allison, I just want to encourage you. My senior was at that reading level when he was in 3rd grade. I never let him know he was behind. We just kept plugging forward. And now, he is a very academically successful young man.

 

Have you looked at Dancing Bears and Apples and Pears spelling?

Thank you for the encouragement.  We are about 2/3 through Dancing Bears A (and it really was what turned the corner for us).  We have A&P but we're taking a break/setting it aside until next year...

[RootAnn]

 

Thank you.  I admit that I struggle with it, but I saw a quote on FB recently that really resonated with me:

"Focus more on who your child is than what your child does.  Remember, you're growing a person, not fixing a problem."

(I need to read that daily...)

 

Sometimes, I think that the pressure to have your child reading well is higher than that to have your child potty trained. (I even made an analogy between the two.) And since, as homeschooling moms, it is OUR responsibility to teach our kids to read, we feel the stress 10x over. 

 

My two oldest struggled with learning to read & reading fluently. But, when they finally get it, everyone feels great. Just hang in there & enjoy your little people!

 

[Hunter]

 

"Focus more on who your child is than what your child does.  Remember, you're growing a person, not fixing a problem."

 

 

 

 

That is awesome! 

[happypamama]

Lori, your thread made me remember that I used this book with DD in 3rd (I think it was 3rd, not 4th; I think I was pregnant, not toting a baby, LOL), and it was a nice extra. We read each page and for about half of the letters, she wrote (with my help) her own version of that type of poem. It was a fun and gentle way to add a little oomph and challenge to the language arts package. I think I will do it with DS1 next year. http://www.amazon.com/R-Rhyme-A-Poetry-Alphabet/dp/158536519X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390336077&sr=8-1&keywords=r+is+for+rhyme

[lorisuewho]

Lori, your thread made me remember that I used this book with DD in 3rd (I think it was 3rd, not 4th; I think I was pregnant, not toting a baby, LOL), and it was a nice extra. We read each page and for about half of the letters, she wrote (with my help) her own version of that type of poem. It was a fun and gentle way to add a little oomph and challenge to the language arts package. I think I will do it with DS1 next year. http://www.amazon.com/R-Rhyme-A-Poetry-Alphabet/dp/158536519X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390336077&sr=8-1&keywords=r+is+for+rhyme

.

 

Thanks. I am going to order it and give it a whirl. Even if we don't write poetry it still looks like a neat study.

[Juliegmom]

We start off with copying paragraphs that I select from their history or science reading. Non-fiction for paragraph writing is the way to go. Sometimes I re-write paragraphs from the books to make them fit what I am teaching. Sometimes I find paragraphs from old science readers on Gutenberg (then I can copy and paste them into word and print them up).

 

initially, we use highlighters to highlight topic and supporting details. Eventually we work to transition words. I print up paragraphs and cut them into strips and have them build the paragraphs by putting them in the correct order. (as far as word choice, etc......that is all part of our discussion b/c we also tear the sentences apart for grammar)

 

Then I give them the topic sentence and help them come up with supporting details to write a paragraph. Then I give them supporting details and help them come up with topic sentences. (the most difficult skill.)

 

And I NEVER give my kids a topic like write a paragraph on penguins. That is an absurd assignment. Entire books are written on penguins. Give them a topic that is narrow and can be covered in a paragraph. If the topic is narrowed, they can start to have success with coming up with their own topic sentence.

 

Since writing comes from science or history, that is the only writing they do. The rest is only through discussion.

 

I just came across this thread. You have some great suggestions here that I plan to put into practice. Thank you!