Help with Failing K? (long)

[displace]

Sigh :(

Background info:  DS 5 has a close birthday cutoff for K and was born preemie by >1 month and he has always been borderline with meeting milestones, etc.

We had a big move right before school year started, and moved a couple times, so I homeschooled to tide us over. 

 

HS was slow going.  I was treating K as I remembered it from my youth: not academic enough and I planned on getting through curriculum during a calendar year.  So when DS started K it was right at the end of the first quarter, but we had been reviewing remedial pre-K stuff and had a lot of time off because of the moves.  He received Unsat in letters/phonics and writing expression. 

 

I felt like I failed DS by not doing enough, not knowing enough about core expectations, etc.  Teacher said he may catch up by next quarter and after school we have been working diligently to improve handwriting, reading, phonics, and extra math.

 

Today I met again and he has made great progress but still Unsat in all categories.  Close to Satis in phonics/reading/writing but not quite because she said he is guessing in regards to reading.  Meaning, he knows HOW to phonetically spell a word out but just guesses words based on picture clues, etc.  Also in math he also received an Unsat, not because he doesn't know the concepts but because he may not listen to instructions or he's rushing, etc.  She has no concerns with his intelligence or comprehension.

 

She brought up that if we get him caught up with his peers, how would first grade go with him needing to express himself even more with writing?  His fine motor skills are still lacking a lot at the moment.  I am also concerned.  But on the other hand, if his understanding is good and reading improves, would his limited attention or fine motor skills be a reason for being held back in K (voluntarily or by failing)?

 

She feels it is a maturity factor that will just naturally change with time regardless of all the extra work we're doing.  I'm thinking if we work smarter it will improve quicker.  Also, mood-wise DS has mentioned most days he doesn't like school until last week where he voluntarily said he likes it now.  The reason for not liking it before was "it's too much work".  I'm thinking finally his skills are getting a little better and catching up to his thoughts and he's more used to the long days.  Or maybe he'll work better now that he likes school. 

 

I guess my thoughts are along the lines of K and failing/being kept back (both positive and negative), esp with regards to youth/lack of maturity or a slow start.  Also in mind with future schooling/grade levels and requirements.  I know if he continues to improve well I think he'll meet their benchmarks to pass (I guess I should figure out what they require though?) but will likely need intense help from me throughout the summer and after school for a while?  Sorry this is all rambling but I'm a little distraught.  Feel free to ask questions to clarify.  FWIW, I would love to HS but DH is very down on it (we have a toddler and I must admit I do get somewhat distracted with her).  I'm also hesitant now because I feel like my lack of knowledge of the requirements caused his failure in the first place.  In retrospect I wish we had red-shirted him.  :(

 

Sincerely,

Displaced

[73349]

He sounds like a perfectly normal kindergartner to me; the school's expectations sound a little high. I'd expect he'll catch up by the end of summer if you do some supplementing at home.

[OneStepAtATime]

You didn't fail him.  Our school system tries to force everyone into a one size fits all situation and it isn't healthy.  He is incredibly young. Many kids need a little (or a lot) more time to mature before they are ready for formalized reading and math.  Pushing them too young can generate feelings of inadequacy, can force children to memorize facts that they don't yet actually truly understand, make them feel like they are always behind their peers, etc.  Developmentally, there are a lot of studies showing that pushing too hard too young actually can impede brain development.  We were designed to learn through play and exploration in the younger years.  Some kids really need that more than formalized schooling for a longer period of time to truly thrive and love learning instead of just surviving it.

 

I can't tell you whether to let him repeat Kinder or not.  For some, that would be a great call and for others, it just isn't needed and they would probably be fine by next fall.  I will say that if he moves forward and he really isn't ready, then having him repeat a grade when he is older could have really negative consequences.  At this age, it doesn't usually have quite the same negative impact, and frequently can be exactly what the child needed to be successful in school.  Only you and your DH can really make that call.  I am sorry the path isn't more clear right now.  Best wishes.

[Wolfmeis]

I'm actually really uncomfortable reading that school's expectations of a kindergartener.    I am not worried about your child's progress at all.

 

[chiguirre]

 In retrospect I wish we had red-shirted him.  :(

 

 

In your situation I would definitely red-shirt the child. In fact, I'd pull him out now and put him in a pre-K for the rest of the school year. I wouldn't want my child to always be struggling to keep up with kids who are a year older than him developmentally and I wouldn't mind him being a bit older when college rolled around.

[MistyMountain]

I am not crazy about the practice of making kindergarten so academic and full day and then pushing back the cut off to have older kids in kindergarten but it is what we have to deal with nowadays unfortunately. Since he is a preemie and he just made the cut off and it sounds like he wouldn't if he was born on time. I would probably have him do another year of kindergarten or pull him out and work with him and send him to kindergarten next year. My 5 year old in some ways picks up on things really well but there is no way he would have been able to keep up with the handwriting demands this year and definitely not for 1st if I was able to send him in. He missed the cut off but if he made it it would have been hard for him due to maturity reasons. You probably could catch him up by working with him though.

[La Texican]

If you want my advice, just as an outsiders opinion to weigh, I would either red-shirt or enroll in summer school rather than cramming to meet the end of year bench mark. Summer schooling would give him "an extra lap" to get his pace. Cramming to reach the end of year benchmark would be stressful, all students lose ground over the summer, and new skills need to be excercised daily in small amounts. Redshirting is also fine in this situation because you're not doing it for an advantage, but considering doing it for an appropriate educational fit for your child.

Talk to your husband and the teacher and think about over the next three or four years which class would be a better fit for your child. Skipping him later may or may not be more easily done than holding him back now. If you think he needs first grade next year, second the next, then consider summer school so he can have time to find his groove with the pace of school. If you think he would do well all four years with kindergarten next year, first the next, second the next, and third the next, then redshirting will create that appropriate fit for your child. just my 2 cents

[SKL]

I am trying to get a feel for how much of the delay is due to not-schooling vs. immaturity / inability.  If it's only because he wasn't doing the right school work and now he is catching up, I would be inclined to give him a chance.  It sounds like he is doing OK as long as he keeps up the current pace through the end of K.

 

Only you can make the judgment re maturity.  One thing I'd look at: what is the actual age range of the kids in each class at his school?  If there is a lot of red-shirting there, he is at that much more of a disadvantage.

 

Both of my kids were 4 at the beginning of K and while the youngest is doing fine, the eldest is still working hard every day to keep up.  Part of the problem is that the school they attended for K hardly did any math, and now (different school) they are facing much higher standards.  If I'd seen this coming, I might have been able to prepare them better.  But the other thing is that with the redshirting in my kids' school, they are way younger for grade than I thought they would be.  10 days young is actually 4 months young.

 

On the other hand, it's nice to see how much both of my kids are learning, and I don't think that being a whole year older in their grade would have been the best for either of them.  So it's hard to say which is more frustrating - being older and ahead of most, or being younger and having to work harder than most.

[IsabelC]

First, you didn't fail in any way. The fact that your little one is almost passing is a testament to the amount of effort you and he have been putting in. As for fine motor development, that will happen in its own good time, and apart from continuing to encourage him to practice, there isn't anything you can do about it.

 

Second, there is nothing wrong with redshirting him now. At that age, he might not even notice or care, but if he does you can simply explain that the school placed him in the 'wrong' age group and you are now fixing this (explaining about gestation vs actual age or not according to your preference and his level of curiosity/understanding). Obviously it's up to you (with your husband) to make the call, but bear in mind that if your son is going to repeat a grade, it is usually easier to do this earlier rather than later in his schooling.

[vonfirmath]

In your situation I would definitely red-shirt the child. In fact, I'd pull him out now and put him in a pre-K for the rest of the school year. I wouldn't want my child to always be struggling to keep up with kids who are a year older than him developmentally and I wouldn't mind him being a bit older when college rolled around.

 

My august birthday son is NOT struggling academically (he's ahead) and this year (first grade) there have been times I have wondered if we did the right thing putting him in K on time.  Just because of behavior expectations. I'm feeling better now than earlier this year. But I can see that it is likely to be a struggle for a while yet. If he was also struggling academically, it'd be a no-brainer to pull him.

 

And if he's going to repeat -- repeating K may be the best option altogether. Or, as someone mentioned, pull him out to preK now and put him back in K next year. But DS is in a class with another kid who went to K two years in a row -- they switched teachers on him and overall its been a good move for himl (I know his mother some.)

[abacus2]

I am with the other posters. Pull him out now; don't continue to push him this year only to have him repeat K next year or struggle in 1st. 

[displace]

Thank you to all the replies so far.  You have all been so kind and helped ease my sadness.  It has given me some new insights to consider and discuss with DH.  Any reason to consider redshirting vs just voluntarily repeating Kindergarten?  Is it just to avoid the negative record on his academic record?  He already will have two unsatisfactory report cards if we pull out now. 

 

Or is the idea of redshirting more of a relaxing approach as K may be too rigorous? 

 

I'm just so heartbroken.  I'm sure most everyone on this board understands as I think the majority of us are focused on intellectual pursuits/improvements.  I find it hard to imagine my child would be in this position.  Maybe it's just the standards, or his lack of maturity, but it's hard for me to come to terms with as I've always loved school and succeeded beyond expectations.  As I think back though, things were soooo different when I was in K.

 

I also appreciate the votes of support that I wasn't the cause of this whole mess.  I think I'm still going to feel mommy guilt though :o

 

My thoughts so far are to Avoid At All Costs a Failure in school.  DH feels failure in 1st grade (if we push and progress and there's a fail at that point) is no big deal.  He feels that would be equivalent to pulling him out now for pre-k/redshirting.  I feel it would be a disaster of insurmountable and lifelong problems (teachers in the future labelling him as a failure, treating him as if he doesn't know much, expecting less of him because of grades, etc) for him to fail 1st grade.  Intellectually I think he's with his peers but is making mistakes due to lack of attention, not because of confusion.  And I see no comparison between putting him back in pre-K vs. him failing 1st.  I think those two things are completely different and not equivalent and all.  Any good research you can point to me of benefits of redshirting vs failing vs holding back voluntarily?  DH is pretty scientific and evidence based research may sway his opinion (as it should). 

 

I still feel so lost and underwater with everything school based and what to do.  Please continue to give further/different advice as able. 

 

Displaced

 

P.S. -- Sorry if it feels like I'm asking for more advice that has already been given/addressed.  I'm just wanting to clarify benefits of redshirting vs. repeating Kindy.  I'm sort-of thinking that since Kindy should be more advanced than pre-K, I should keep him there (as well as limited disruption of schedules considering our recent moves/upheavals/etc).  FWIW, teacher says that he enjoys school there and likes it.  He used to tell me he didn't like it but recently started saying he does like it, making me think he's more used to it now.  We do afterschool for about 20-30? min usually 5-6 days a week.  I don't think he enjoys afterschool work because he'd rather be playing.  I read aloud an average of two new books a day as well.  I forgot if I mentioned this before and my blood sugar is a little low so I'm rambling... :001_huh:

 

 

[SKL]

Well, I don't have any research links for you, but I'm pretty sure that the weight of evidence is in your favor as to the negative impact of failing 1st grade.  I would not let it happen if I there was any way I could avoid it.  When my eldest was in 1st I would often work with her for multiple hours in the evening, because she was not going to repeat 1st.  (And she did great in KG, so 1st was my first clue that she would struggle.)  She is doing better now, but if she gets to the point where she is not able to meet standards, I will transfer her to another school / get her an IEP before consenting to demotion.  Because in both my observations and everything I've read, a child demoted in grade school almost never does well in future academic years.  And socially/emotionally it would devastate my kid.

 

So from my perspective, there are only two choices:  abort or do 2 years of K (explaining to your child that lots of people do this and it's no big deal), or commit to do whatever it takes to help my child succeed as a young-for-grade student.

[prairiewindmomma]

I am going to offer a slightly different opinion just based on my experiences with preemies and kids with learning disabilities.

 

Is there any question as to whether he has any functional vision issues or any fine motor issues aside from being a boy and young?

 

We were in the same place with one child, and there were (and are) legitimate issues that were hidden by the fact that the kid is super smart. The frustration and attention issues popped up because he was being asked to do things he couldn't do.

 

Are they doing DIBELs?

 

I wouldn't move him on to 1st, but I am not yet in the yank him camp. I'd want more information....preferably from an OT perspective or from a teacher whose opinion I trust on what may be going on.

[displace]

I am going to offer a slightly different opinion just based on my experiences with preemies and kids with learning disabilities.

 

Is there any question as to whether he has any functional vision issues or any fine motor issues aside from being a boy and young?

 

We were in the same place with one child, and there were (and are) legitimate issues that were hidden by the fact that the kid is super smart. The frustration and attention issues popped up because he was being asked to do things he couldn't do.

 

Are they doing DIBELs?

 

I wouldn't move him on to 1st, but I am not yet in the yank him camp. I'd want more information....preferably from an OT perspective or from a teacher whose opinion I trust on what may be going on.

 

Thanks for this perspective.  I had his vision checked by an optometrist before beginning school and so far, no known visual concerns (or hearing problems I think based on observation alone).  His speech was a little borderline but has improved tremendously since being at school (enunciation, decrease/stop in stuttering) vs his preschool.  Gross motor skills are fine but not awesome.  He definitely has fine motor skill problems IMO but I don't know if they are enough to justify a diagnosis, KWIM?  Teacher says he also needs a lot of fine motor skill work.  I work with him with manipulatives (but I can increase this).  Within the last few months he became interested enough in Legos that they are helpful.  I also should allow him to use the scissors more often.  I got a little rainbow loom (the bracelet maker thingy) to help, and some necklace/small beads to work with.  But daily he usually only uses the Legos.  The other activities are more often once per week (not all of them, one of them).  When we did limited HS, I frequently would allow him to use number stamps for math because of his frustration with writing the numbers. 

 

I don't know what DIBELs is/are.  I'm considering getting IQ/developmental/LD testing since he is >5 y/o to see what may pop up.  I'm not sure if I want to rely on school for this (not sure I would trust either a normal/abnormal result).  They do FAIR or FIAR testing to predict academic success in reading (is my limited understanding), and he is doing well with that testing, 89% I believe. 

 

Why can't us parents just know the future?  That would make everything so much easier. 

[msjones]

I used to teach ps K. 

 

It's only January.  Half-way through the year.  He's got time.  I'd suggest some daily review at home in as lighthearted a manner as you can muster.  I know you're feeling so worried, but try to keep it fun-ish and pleasant.  He mustn't feel miserable and stressed, or then you'll really have a problem.  

 

Part of our reason for homeschooling was our very academic neighborhood ps K program.  My son was not ready for that, or for the high-pressure first grade curriculum.  The school principal bragged at the tour about the whole student body working a year ahead.  I knew that was not going to work for my kids.

 

I'd keep at it with the support at home until April or so. Then ask questions about 1st and perhaps reconsider.  Ask the teacher how many other kids are in his same 'boat.'  If he's truly far 'behind' the other students, this may not be a great spot for him.  

 

My son was a slow bloomer.  He's now doing very well.  But he would not have thrived in a high-pressure K-3 environment.  

[ktgrok]

i'd put him back in preschool. Staying where he is drowing is going to make him possibly have negative associations for a long time. 

[SKL]

You also might want to get feedback from other parents at that school regarding how 1st grade is going.  Meaning, is it kind of high pressure, crazy pressure, really fun, do the kids get plenty of recess, what's the homework like, etc. 

[La Texican]

or summer school. They have it for reasons like this.

[mathnerd]

I think that you are doing a great job working with him at home. I suggest that you ask the K teacher for remedial materials and work more with him at home. It sounds to me like he has little experience with how a classroom works - things like waiting, listening, not rushing etc. These habits come after a good deal of practice. Get a book of word problems and talk him through a few simple exercises and that will help him listen carefully and then act. Read aloud to him and ask him to answer comprehension questions on the story you just read. These are simple strategies to help with his classwork.

Personally, I would neither red shirt nor pull him out. Because if a child is struggling for whatever reason, it is up to the parent and the teacher to find the cause and try to fix it. It could be the lack of school skills or a LD or just plain boredom in the classroom. I also like the suggestion of summer school above - in my area, most private schools offer summer programs where a lot of struggling kids go to catch up on academics.

Good luck.

[prairiewindmomma]

I'd keep up with the Legos. They helped my son a lot. I'd also add a lot more fine motor stuff....writing in sand, water colors, playing with playdoh, lacing cards, drawing with chalk, etc.

 

DIBELs is a phonics test that a lot of public schools use. They recently redid the test and the new version is harder than the old.

 

When we were in your shoes, we requested an evaluation by the intervention team, including an OT eval. Overall intelligence was never an issue (ds tested out gifted), but we were able to get help where he needed it. If it was just your opinion he was struggling, and teacher said he was fine, I'd wonder about grade appropriate expectations but where you are public schooling and intend to keep public schooling and teacher is mentioning issues and he's failing evils, I think it's time to start ruling out why he might be struggling. If he's just a late bloomer, great, but I see a lot of "late bloomers" who struggle for years and give up trying a few years in...and a number of parents who remediate after years of waiting for things to get better. (Oldest is in 6th---in 4-5th grade a number of his peers in public school hit the wall).

[prairiewindmomma]

Ok, that was a funny autocorrect. I wrote evals for evaluations up above and that autocorrected to evils...

[abacus2]

The reason I suggest pulling him now is primarily social. At the elementary school I went to, which was small, all the students and teachers knew who had repeated a grade, even Kindergarten, and it affected them all the way through. However a kid coming for one quarter of K before deciding to pull out and start next year wouldn't have been a big deal.

 

I also would pull him for academic reasons. It seems from your description that he in every way seems to fit in preschool this year/Kindergarten next year. If you push this year, I feel you will always be pushing and he will always struggle more than he needs too. More playtime this year would be better preparation for really doing K next year, than continuing to try K this year IMHO.

[ktgrok]

I think you need to put him in preschool because even IF afterschooling would fix things, I don't think a 5 year old should be in school all day and then have more school later at home. It isn't develop;mentally appropriate for that age. 

[kubiac]

I agree with the advice to pull him out now (if you can do that in your situation) and then have him repeat K. Stop thinking about it as "failure." It's KINDERGARTEN. You really can't fail kindergarten,. This is just a mismatch based on chronological age vs. developmental age vs. academic push-down.

 

Reading this guy may help:

http://www.heyquitpushing.com/why-sooner-inst-better.html

 

When he comes back around next year, he will be ready to be an amazing kindergartener. Can you find a DK/Pre-K/TK program for him to transfer to? It sounds like really just needs two years of K, which is now standard practice in many communities.

 

Last but not least, I've read that when educators recommend a "repeat" or a "hold back," it's easier on everyone to do it earlier, rather than later, i.e. K or first is better than second, which is better than third, etc.

[DoppeltGemoppelt]

I tend to agree with the previous posters. You are not doing your son any favors by pushing him to do something that he is not developmentally ready for. You are a great mom, and you didn't do anything wrong, kindergarten should be play based.

Besides academic advantages, think about other long term consequences. If your son is the youngest in his class now, he is probably making friends who are socially close to his level. Because of his age, those friends will most likely be the lowest achieving kids in his class. If you were to keep him back, he will make new friends. Those new friends will more likely be at the top of their class. I would want my kids to surround themselves with good kids who are well behaved and who are doing well in school. Hard to explain, but definitely another reason for putting him in preschool now and having him start kindergarten again next year.

 

I don't know if your family does sports, but if he is older and bigger in High School, he will have a much greater chance to be picked for a sports team.

 

Just my two cents...

[SKL]

 I would want my kids to surround themselves with good kids who are well behaved and who are doing well in school.

 

Hmm, this is something I have not heard before.  The kids I know who are old for grade are not always the best examples to follow.  Some of them act out or space out because they aren't challenged.  Some are old in the class because of social, emotional, or academic issues, which an extra year of growth doesn't always fix.  I think the OP has good reasons to consider doing KG next year, but this isn't one of them IMO.

[displace]

Thanks to all for the additional replies and insights.  It's nice to get outside perspectives.  DH and I are meeting with the teacher again this week to go over all these options: should we redshirt at this time, continue K and voluntarily repeat, keep going ahead, etc. 

 

Further research has me confused as many articles regarding redshirting show very conflicting results.  Ranging from immediate benefits in testing/maturity that degrade by 3rd grade, to no benefits long term, to detrimental associations (but no known cause/effect).

 

One thing I did find was an association with repeating Kindergarten and a higher risk of LD, etc.  If that is the case, repeating Kindy would never solve a problem like that.  I do agree we are putting too much stress on testing and kindy standards.  But I also think DS is intelligent enough that the concepts are not above him at all.  I mean, before starting K we were doing MUS and working on placement system concepts.  They are just now starting numbers greater than 10, so I know he knows the concepts and I'm thinking it's more focus or ability to communicate it in a way they can test??  I think school just emphasizes things I don't care about but they feel are important, like how to test properly seems to be a big deal. 

 

I've decided, no matter what, I want at least a basic school psychological testing and occupational testing.  Learning disabilities and behavior concerns do run in the family, as well as high intelligence.  If we find anything like twice gifted, LD, global concerns, that would help with our decision I think.  If he has something else present, that's what needs to be addressed, not additional homework I think. 

 

I may start another general thread to see people's personal experiences with repeating Kindy, redshirting, pushing ahead.  But if anyone has those personal experiences I'd love to hear them.  His school is large (~1,000 students K-5th) so there are plenty of other K classes if we do repeat so it's not all the same all over again (though I actually really like his teacher). 

 

It's funny too because I was having a conversation with him about school and how sometimes things can be hard in school and did he feel that way and he said Not at all, so I'm ok with him staying for the moment until we sort this through a little better.  But I am hoping to get testing done within a week or two if the school won't agree to do it.

 

Displaced

[DoppeltGemoppelt]

Hmm, this is something I have not heard before. The kids I know who are old for grade are not always the best examples to follow. Some of them act out or space out because they aren't challenged. Some are old in the class because of social, emotional, or academic issues, which an extra year of growth doesn't always fix. I think the OP has good reasons to consider doing KG next year, but this isn't one of them IMO.

This, of course, isn't always the case. In my state however, the cutoff for kindergarten is in December. This means that some of the kids starting out are only four years old, whereas others are almost six. There is a huge difference in maturity at this age. My kids, who are on the older side, kept coming home complaining about other kids who wouldn't listen. Turns out one of the kids was very young, whereas the other came from a disrupted home. The two of them became friends, which certainly wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been grouped this way by age.

This is certainly no scientific evidence, just a one time occurrence, but I keep seeing this pattern over and over. IMHO, I'd rather see my kids be on the mature side of the class.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks to all for the additional replies and insights.  It's nice to get outside perspectives.  DH and I are meeting with the teacher again this week to go over all these options: should we redshirt at this time, continue K and voluntarily repeat, keep going ahead, etc. 

 

Further research has me confused as many articles regarding redshirting show very conflicting results.  Ranging from immediate benefits in testing/maturity that degrade by 3rd grade, to no benefits long term, to detrimental associations (but no known cause/effect).

 

One thing I did find was an association with repeating Kindergarten and a higher risk of LD, etc.  If that is the case, repeating Kindy would never solve a problem like that.  I do agree we are putting too much stress on testing and kindy standards.  But I also think DS is intelligent enough that the concepts are not above him at all.  I mean, before starting K we were doing MUS and working on placement system concepts.  They are just now starting numbers greater than 10, so I know he knows the concepts and I'm thinking it's more focus or ability to communicate it in a way they can test??  I think school just emphasizes things I don't care about but they feel are important, like how to test properly seems to be a big deal. 

 

I've decided, no matter what, I want at least a basic school psychological testing and occupational testing.  Learning disabilities and behavior concerns do run in the family, as well as high intelligence.  If we find anything like twice gifted, LD, global concerns, that would help with our decision I think.  If he has something else present, that's what needs to be addressed, not additional homework I think. 

 

I may start another general thread to see people's personal experiences with repeating Kindy, redshirting, pushing ahead.  But if anyone has those personal experiences I'd love to hear them.  His school is large (~1,000 students K-5th) so there are plenty of other K classes if we do repeat so it's not all the same all over again (though I actually really like his teacher). 

 

It's funny too because I was having a conversation with him about school and how sometimes things can be hard in school and did he feel that way and he said Not at all, so I'm ok with him staying for the moment until we sort this through a little better.  But I am hoping to get testing done within a week or two if the school won't agree to do it.

 

Displaced

As a parent with a 2e kid, who did NOT get testing done early, if you have ANY indication that there might be some learning differences, then please get testing done if you can, but rarely is testing terribly thorough through the school.  They look at testing as a way to determine just what needs to be done to get the child moving to the next grade level, not how to help the child genuinely thrive.  Usually, evaluators in school are not trained to discover all the underlying strengths AND weaknesses, so tremendous strengths may remain untapped and may actually be masking the weaknesses.  Only a highly trained professional, like a neuropsychologist trained to look at 2e kids usually has the ability to do a thorough assessment that will give you concrete answers.   Extremely bright children can have very specific learning issues.  I did not recognize this nor did our school.  My kids are bright so the school just thought they "needed more time" or were "a little unfocused" etc.  We wasted years letting them just get by when they could have been thriving.

[SKL]

Yes, I think it will make a big difference if you can pinpoint what the issues are and aren't.  Based on my experience, being old in the class AND mentally advanced can be really problematic.  If there is evidence that your son is bright but merely catching up in some specific areas, they might be more inclined to be patient and supportive.  And if you do decide to hold him back for whatever reason, at least you can put together a plan to keep him mentally stimulated.

[Nart]

Yes, I think it will make a big difference if you can pinpoint what the issues are and aren't. Based on my experience, being old in the class AND mentally advanced can be really problematic. If there is evidence that your son is bright but merely catching up in some specific areas, they might be more inclined to be patient and supportive. And if you do decide to hold him back for whatever reason, at least you can put together a plan to keep him mentally stimulated.

I have the exact opposite experience. My 7 year old son is one of the oldest in first grade (he just missed the cut-off for entering school so he had to wait a year to enter K). He really should be the oldest but several kids are red-shirted. He is also academically advanced (reads on a third grade level, doing SM2). He constantly is praised and rewarded at school by his teacher because he is mature and advanced. He finishes his work quickly and gets to go to fun centers. For one assignment each child had to write a sentence or two about every child in the class. The teacher then put a little book together for every child. His classmates wrote comments: you are smart; you always know the answers in math; you are a good reader; you are a great soccer player; you help me if I don't know how to do the work". Since he is one of the older boys and athletic he is one of the first boys picked for teams during recess. He used to be a shy kid in preschool and has slowly turned into a confident kid.. He is challenged at home and is told repeatedly that working hard is what is important.

[msjones]

Jumping in here again.

 

 I think it depends very much upon the approach of the school in general.  Are they strongly emphasizing (almost requiring) early reading?  Is it essential to be reading in kindergarten in this school?  What are 1st graders expected to be doing in September?  What do they do with kids who can't keep up?  Is there a good option for those kids?  Are other kids in his same boat, or is he really off on his own? 

 

Often there is great support for later readers at public schools and those kids can do just fine.  In some schools, however, there just isn't funding for remedial reading.  (Often, schools in higher income areas don't have as much funding for extra help.)  What I'd look for is a school that welcomes and expects kids' different rates of progress and is prepared with lots of positive support. 

[SKL]

I have the exact opposite experience. My 7 year old son is one of the oldest in first grade (he just missed the cut-off for entering school so he had to wait a year to enter K). He really should be the oldest but several kids are red-shirted. He is also academically advanced (reads on a third grade level, doing SM2). He constantly is praised and rewarded at school by his teacher because he is mature and advanced. He finishes his work quickly and gets to go to fun centers. For one assignment each child had to write a sentence or two about every child in the class. The teacher then put a little book together for every child. His classmates wrote comments: you are smart; you always know the answers in math; you are a good reader; you are a great soccer player; you help me if I don't know how to do the work". Since he is one of the older boys and athletic he is one of the first boys picked for teams during recess. He used to be a shy kid in preschool and has slowly turned into a confident kid.. He is challenged at home and is told repeatedly that working hard is what is important.

 

I'm glad the outcome has been positive for your child.  I wouldn't generalize too much from his experience, though.  There is a risk either way - immaturity on one hand, lack of challenge on the other.  It depends on the individual child and school.

[ondreeuh]

I have an immature, high achieving boy. It's a mess. The whole-class instruction for phonics and math is years below him (class uses Saxon K for math; he is almost done with MIF 1). He only has a few opportunities for work at his level, which is either done 1:1 with the teacher or independently. Conversely, his frustration tolerance is low and he has a hard time regulating his emotions. His birthday is 3 months after the cutoff so he's well within Kindergarten age, and he couldn't handle the behavioral and social demands of a grade promotion. In our district, there are more opportunities for low achievers than high achievers. Low readers get a specialist in the class and extra pull-out in the afternoon. High readers get sent to the hallway to read independently for 45 min. (Not in my son's class, but the K teacher warned me it happens in higher grades). The kids who are still learning the alphabet and numbers to 10 seem happy as clams in the kindergarten class, but my son is a basket case because his worst behaviors come out when he is unstimulated. If he was more mature, he could be a great leader and self-starter, or could at least handle a grade skip. As it is, it looks like we'll be homeschooling.

 

 

[NASDAQ]

I'll go against the grain and say I'd be very unlikely to red-shirt. From my reading, kids who repeat may get a temporary boost but the long term does not bear out this early advance. In addition, the child is losing an entire _year_ of his adult life. Not so good. It's a permanent solution to what may well be a temporary problem.

 

Children are very variable at five. They're much less variable after eight or so. They're going to be older-than-eight for a heck of a lot longer than they were younger-than-eight (we dearly hope).

[displace]

Jumping in here again.

 

 I think it depends very much upon the approach of the school in general.  Are they strongly emphasizing (almost requiring) early reading?  Is it essential to be reading in kindergarten in this school?  What are 1st graders expected to be doing in September?  What do they do with kids who can't keep up?  Is there a good option for those kids?  Are other kids in his same boat, or is he really off on his own? 

 

Often there is great support for later readers at public schools and those kids can do just fine.  In some schools, however, there just isn't funding for remedial reading.  (Often, schools in higher income areas don't have as much funding for extra help.)  What I'd look for is a school that welcomes and expects kids' different rates of progress and is prepared with lots of positive support. 

 

I will say he is getting some intensive intervention from what the teacher has told me.  He gets a letter recognition program 3 x per week, small group with teacher twice a week, and they are going to start him with another person to monitor his handwriting with another student.  When he started he didn't know his letter recognition/phonics well (which is strange because he knew what the letters say when he was 2-3 years old, but lost that knowledge).  I was starting at pre-K letter recognition but only got through half the alphabet d/t our move.  So since then he knows them all.  From what I've seen the other children do from examples on the board, most kids in his class are writing 2 short sentences fairly well.  DS examples look like a much younger child -- dramatically, which is why I'm wanting an OT eval now.  As for the advanced children, she has only alluded to the children being allowed to advance at their own pace.  Speaking to other moms who use the pre-K program next to the school, some 4 year olds are reading beginning readers. 

 

I do feel he is just young, and maybe that's all this is, but when I monitor his behavior, lack of attention and focus, but great conversational skills and understanding of more advanced worldly concepts, makes me think testing for IQ/ADHD/LD is appropriate, as well as an understanding of his fine motor skills. 

 

Displaced

[displace]

I have an immature, high achieving boy. It's a mess. The whole-class instruction for phonics and math is years below him (class uses Saxon K for math; he is almost done with MIF 1). He only has a few opportunities for work at his level, which is either done 1:1 with the teacher or independently. Conversely, his frustration tolerance is low and he has a hard time regulating his emotions. His birthday is 3 months after the cutoff so he's well within Kindergarten age, and he couldn't handle the behavioral and social demands of a grade promotion. In our district, there are more opportunities for low achievers than high achievers. Low readers get a specialist in the class and extra pull-out in the afternoon. High readers get sent to the hallway to read independently for 45 min. (Not in my son's class, but the K teacher warned me it happens in higher grades). The kids who are still learning the alphabet and numbers to 10 seem happy as clams in the kindergarten class, but my son is a basket case because his worst behaviors come out when he is unstimulated. If he was more mature, he could be a great leader and self-starter, or could at least handle a grade skip. As it is, it looks like we'll be homeschooling.

 

I'd love to HS again.  Because of our rocky summer/fall trial and all this, DH is pretty down on it.  And I have high respect for his school so we may just have to see how things go. 

[DoppeltGemoppelt]

Just a word of caution about intervention that is offered to your son. I work as an instructional assistant at a middle school, and many of my friends work in schools also. What I have seen time and time again is that the people working with your son might be very unqualified.

There is no training provided for the one-on-one assistants. They get thrown into the classroom, are told 'This is the child you will work with' , and know absolutely nothing about your child or why he needs special help.

The so called 'specialists' such as OT, PT, Speach, Reading Intervention etc., get to see the children they work with so infrequently, that they cannot effectively evaluate a child's learning behavior in order to create a learning environment where the children can thrive in.

The children are oftentimes underestimated and get left behind even further.

I do not want to discourage you OP, but rather enable you to make a decision based on facts (at least when it comes to the school districts in my area). You know your own son, nobody will ever love him as much as you do. Afterschooling him will most likely have a better outcome than any intervention at school ever could.

 

That said, I do strongly agree with previous posters who recommended getting your son evaluated independently. Your family will only benefit from knowing everything there is to know about your son's strengths and weaknesses.

[SKL]

  When he started he didn't know his letter recognition/phonics well (which is strange because he knew what the letters say when he was 2-3 years old, but lost that knowledge). ....  DS [writing] examples look like a much younger child -- dramatically, which is why I'm wanting an OT eval now.  .... lack of attention and focus, but great conversational skills and understanding of more advanced worldly concepts..... 

 

These, to me, are red flags for vision issues.  I strongly recommend an evaluation by a COVD developmental optometrist.

 

[displace]

These, to me, are red flags for vision issues.  I strongly recommend an evaluation by a COVD developmental optometrist.

 

 

I should clarify: he knew at 2 years old the phonics basics (the A says "ah") but letter recognition by visually seeing and then saying, "that's an A, and it says ah" he did not know at the young age.  Now he knows the phonics of the letters and letter recognition based on visually seeing.  But when "reading", he'll guess a word, and when prompted, will say the letter's name and sound.

 

That being said, I don't know what a COVD developmental optometrist is, so he very well may need an evaluation!  I did screen with a general optometrist prior to school starting and his vision was good.

I'm not sure if this is all relevant, but I'm suspecting more and more a problem with his prior preschool/daycare.  He was there for years and I felt it was good, but after leaving there, I noticed immediate improvement in certain things, such as his stuttering, enunciation, etc.  There has been improvement in his handwriting but when left alone, he doesn't write well.  It makes me think he learned some bad habits there that he's stuck with and poor formal instruction that I was unaware of as I never did any schooling with him until HS K.

 

Let me google COVD dvlp optometrist though...

 

Displaced

[MistyMountain]

I do feel he is just young, and maybe that's all this is, but when I monitor his behavior, lack of attention and focus, but great conversational skills and understanding of more advanced worldly concepts, makes me think testing for IQ/ADHD/LD is appropriate, as well as an understanding of his fine motor skills.

He sounds a lot like my son who also has some enunciation and light stuttering issues. My son is having difficulty with reading and especially writing but he can carry on advanced conversations and has an great understanding of advanced concepts for his age.

[linders]

I would recommend redshirting now when it will less of an impact socially and academically.

 

We can all sit around arguing that too much is expected of K students now, but it is what it is, and the trend continues into first grade. I feel fortunate that before we had even decided to homeschool, I attended "Kindergarten Readiness" night at DS's preschool. The teachers and principals of the local elementary schools explained the ramped-up expectations in K nowadays and exhorted those of us with summer-birthday kids to hold them back. DS was a late July birthday, but the idea wasn't even on my radar screen. I researched a bit, and ended up doing another year of pre-K for DS. Best move for him, even though we eventually decided to homeschool.

[Library Momma]

In our school system there are about 170 students per grade - About 10 repeat K each year and 4-6 repeat grades 1-3.  For the students that repeat K (usually with a different teacher) it usually seems to work out well.  There really is no stigma attached and it seems to be just what the students need.  For the students repeating the upper grades it is a little tougher because they have established friends by then.  Sometimes the student repeating is a child that was redshirted and that causes problems.  My daughter who is 11 and is in 6th grade has a 13 yo in her class.  The girl was redshirted and then repeated a grade.  She seems to be on track academically (although she is not on a high or honors track) but the maturity differences are a problem for her.

 

I also have a friend with a daughter that the school wanted to repeat K.  Since it is up to the parents my friend refused and hired tutors to help the child along.  The girl gets tutored every day after school and still has barely squeaked by each grade.  Now that she is in 6th and they actually assign grades on the report card it is becoming a problem. She regrets that she never allowed the girl to repeat K.

 

These are just my experiences.  i think that you should just let your son repeat K.  You'll come to realize it wasn't a big deal and it will provide him with the extra time he needs to mature and catch up. 

[Elisabet1]

So you put him in school the year he barely made the cut off? Or you waited the extra year?

 

Sadly, I would say if he is on the younger end, he should wait the extra year for 1at grade. If you do not want him to have the "label" of being held back, then keep him home a year or two. Don't mention grades. Time will run together and by the time he goes back, he won't likely match up that he should would have been in the higher grade. I would just say "oh, we put you in too early and didn't realize it right away, now you are back in the right grade." In fact, I would pull him right now. Maybe try to re-enter him in a year at the same time or year, or wait a year and a half for when he is ready for 1st grade. 

 

Here is what I am doing. My son was born after 9:30pm on Aug 31. He turns 5 this year, less than 2.5 hrs before the cut off. The public school keeps asking me if I am putting him in (some of the people there are anyway, and they actually think I should) but I am waiting. He is definitely not ready. So for next year, when he turns 5 just hours before the cut off, I am putting him in the 4 yr old preschool. If he had not been born early, he would have been in the 4 yr old room anyway and not made the cut off. I stupidly consented to an early csect. Then he can do kinder or junior kinder the next year. (this is a private school and junior kinder does a lot of the same things, and has kids who were old enough for kinder, but costs less and goes less hours).

[snowbeltmom]

Is this school required to follow the new Common Core standards?  I have not studied the standards in-depth, but I do have a handful of friends who are teachers at the early elementary school level.  These friends believe that the standards are developmentally inappropriate for kids this age and predict that our state will adjust the cut-off dates in the near future to remedy this situation. (My district currently has an Aug. 1st cut-off date)

 

If you live in one of the 45 states that is following the Common Core, I would ask to see a list of the standards for first grade before you make a final decision.

Good luck. :grouphug:

[NASDAQ]

The Common Core standards are insane. I doubt anyone believes they'll be around in five years.

[SKL]

The Common Core standards are insane. I doubt anyone believes they'll be around in five years.

 

They do seem unreasonable in some ways (I'm living them).  But since we are stuck with them for now, many parents and kids are working hard at home to bridge gaps and make sense of cryptic instructions.  So those who can/will do this will probably end up better off.  Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure only a small % of the population can/will do it.  It's that much more unfair to the kids who are already educationally disadvantaged.

 

I don't know what they plan to do when they find out kids are not meeting the standards at the end of the year.  Retain in mass?  Or send them into the next impossible grade?  I'm trying not to find out the hard way....