Domestic Violence Awareness month: Did you know this about abusers?

[Laurie4b]

I have seen the book, "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft recommended in several places and so picked up a copy. It's a book about the abuser, not about women who are abused, though they are obviously discussed in the book and with a caring attitude. Bancroft has been working with abusive men since 1987.  I've seen women in relationships with abusive men where the men looked to lots of other people like a charming, rational, caring person and the women looked to " a little crazy" to other people. So I thought in light of raising awareness this month, that I'd share some things from the book.

 

Some things that I found thought-provoking in the book:

 

 He says that a sense of entitlement (not mental illness, anger-control issues, childhood trauma etc.) combined with cultural support of male domination of women is at the core of male abuse of women.

 

A quote: " Entitlement is the abuser's belief that he has a special status and that it provides him with exclusive rights and privileges that do not apply to his partner. The attitudes that drive abuse can largely be summarized by this one word."  Thinking of abuse as fueled by narcissistic entitlement was a bit different for me than thinking of it as a desire to control. The control serves the entitlement.

 

Quote: "He isn't abusive  because he's angry, he's angry because he's an abusive. "

 

Cultural support of male domination of/violence towards women is rampant in this culture. I didn't really tie together the cultural support for this in popular movies, songs, etc. with actual abuse, but when I thought about global patterns of mistreatment of women, it made a lot of sense.

 

There is a weak link between childhood abuse and a man becoming abusive toward his partner. There is, however, a strong link between watching his father be abusive towards his mother and becoming an abuser. (A man who is an abuser who *was* abused as a child is likely to be a more dangerous abuser than one who wasn't)

 

Abusive men often have normal mental health profiles. Their wives often have mental health issues that are the result of the abuse (anxiety, depression, etc.) Thus sometimes in court proceedings, particularly as related to child custody,  she can look like the messed up one.

 

Treatment for abusive men is primarily about adjusting values of entitlement, superiority over women, etc. rather than about anger-management, or other typical mental health treatment.

 

One of the abuser's strongest tactics is getting a woman to doubt herself. So if you know a woman who is in a relationship that you see is abusive, be very careful not to employ his tactics of causing her to doubt herself by showing incredulity at why she needs validation of her thoughts, why she hasn't left yet, etc.  Anything that hints of "What's wrong with you?" will reinforce his messages to her, making it harder for her to get out.

 

Anyway, I think it's very common to have someone you know in a situation like this and I thought this book was particularly insightful. I'd be glad to hear what others think.

[Santi]

I'm sure that's not the case for all abusers (especially as some are women) but I believe that's a lot of it. My 1st husband was abusive and it was definitely a result of his ingrained kind of misogyny. I think a lot of men do feel entitled to have whatever they want from a woman. Not necessarily because they're a bad person, but because of how society is. When women are assaulted they're often told they should've been wearing less revealing clothes, shouldn't have provoked him, and so on. And then you have the part where the abusive men get more pity than the abused woman, like in that Ohio rape case earlier this year. What that girl went through was terrible, yet all some people were talking about was oh no, those boys have had their lives ruined! Basically rather than telling men not to abuse women we tell women not to provoke men because they of course then have the right to hurt us. Then when they do hurt us it's still our fault because we should've been in charge of the situation.

[goldberry]

 He says that a sense of entitlement (not mental illness, anger-control issues, childhood trauma etc.) combined with cultural support of male domination of women is at the core of male abuse of women.

 

 

 

 

That's a powerful statement, and I think a very true one.  (Although obviously not all cases are the same.)  Really makes you think about how much of a role cultural responses play.

[AFwife Claire]

I too recently read this book, and I posted a very long, very detailed review of the book on my blog here.  I read it and blogged about it for the specific purpose of being able to copy and paste my blog post to send as an email to our church leadership, so they could be aware of these issues in men, since there is a woman I am in a one-on-one Bible study with who is in a marriage with an angry controlling man who fits this book perfectly.  So in my review, I am really pulling out specific things from the book that really fit this one situation! 

 

The book was very helpful for me, and it also shed light on my sister-in-law and her ex-husband's relationship.  Since I wrote the post, friends have been coming out of the woodworks to tell me about friends they are really concerned about that are in this kind of relationship.  My eyes have been opened as to how common a problem it is.

[Lisbeth]

Thanks for posting this.  This goes on WAY too much and it pains me greatly. The Ulster Scot (Irish-Scot) in me always hands this kind of thing back, calls it out, EVEN IN PUBLIC (this is something emotional abusers try to utilize, the public thing, thinking you won't want to make a scene - I will make a scene against my introverted nature in the interest of nipping that notion in the bud)... but I realize I have that innate fight on my side.  I feel so, so bad that there are people living in crazy-making misery every.single.day. 

[Laurie4b]

Claire, your blog post was an excellent summary of the book.

 

[Anne in CA]

Sadly I know many of these things due to personal experience. I have two close friends who have been in multiple relationships with abusers. All the abusers definitely felt that they were special and entitled. When I was younger I was more afraid of the effects of divorce on children than on the abuse they witnessed and I was not a good counselor to my friends. Now I am more insightful.

 

One of my best friends has suffered horrible health and mental health issues from getting beaten by a huge former marine. He tried to kill her after they split up. I dont know if she is alive because she carried a gun to protect herself or because her brothers would have killed him if he killed her. I am certain she would be dead now if he had been sure that he would escape bodily injury from hurting her. Sadly he is in charge of a large prison. He is just as bad as any criminal in the prison and I sure feel sorry for the people in his care. 

[Laurie4b]

 

One of my best friends has suffered horrible health and mental health issues from getting beaten by a huge former marine. He tried to kill her after they split up. I dont know if she is alive because she carried a gun to protect herself or because her brothers would have killed him if he killed her. I am certain she would be dead now if he had been sure that he would escape bodily injury from hurting her. Sadly he is in charge of a large prison. He is just as bad as any criminal in the prison and I sure feel sorry for the people in his care. 

 

That's chilling to have someone like that in charge of so many other people in a system largely without scrutiny.

[Seasider]

"Abusive men often have normal mental health profiles. Their wives often have mental health issues that are the result of the abuse (anxiety, depression, etc.) Thus sometimes in court proceedings, particularly as related to child custody,  she can look like the messed up one."

 

That is tragic. I mean, all of it is, but this in particular stood out to me. I am not surprised at all of the cultural connection. I'd love to see some statistics on patriocentric religious teachings with regard to abuse.

[SKL]

Interesting perspective, and it does ring true from my experiences.  And this is helpful.  Sick of men having an "excuse" to hurt women.  It also explains why there is no abuse in the relationships I know of where the wife stood up to the husband from day one.

[G5052]

Absolutely

 

Years ago I was talking with the wife of an older couple that we were very good friends with.  We were talking about a mutual friend named "D" who was being abused by her husband who insisted that he had the right to treat his wife how ever he wished because he was "the man."  He controlled what she wore, what she cooked, what she did all day hour-by-hour, and punished her if she failed in any way.  And she refused all help, and insisted that she deserved how he treated her for various reasons.  As a newlywed, I was so horrified by this.  Why would a woman allow herself to be treated like that?

 

The older woman said, "When I married forty years ago, I told my husband that if he ever treated me like that, I'd be out the door within the hour.  It was a partnership based on respect or nothing.  Neither of us is better than the other.  We've had some bumps and scrapes, but that has always been our mutual goal.  Our friend 'D' has never had that in her marriage, and never will."

 

Very sobering!

[Santi]

Why would a woman allow herself to be treated like that?

You're victim blaming right there. People don't leave abusive situations for a long list of reasons from things like love and psychological issues to just being scared or telling yourself it doesn't matter or not having the resources to get far enough away.

[Mergath]

Years ago I was talking with the wife of an older couple that we were very good friends with.  We were talking about a mutual friend named "D" who was being abused by her husband who insisted that he had the right to treat his wife how ever he wished because he was "the man."  He controlled what she wore, what she cooks, what she did all day hour-by-hour, and punished her if she failed in any way.  And she refused all help, and insisted that she deserved how he treated her for various reasons.  As a newlywed, I was so horrified by this.  Why would a woman allow herself to be treated like that?

 

 

I'd suggest you read a bit more on the subject before you place blame where blame most certainly does not belong.

[Joanne]

I found my first marriage on every single page of that book.

 

From a clinical, not personal perspective, I like his words on substance abuse and spousal abuse - basically if you sober up an abuser - you have a sober (and "better") abuser.

 

When I went through my court case, I had eventually returned to school for my Masters. One of my Professors had done her doctoral thesis on this topic, and she predicted, with chilling accuracy the MMPI scores for me and my xh. She told me I'd come across as a paranoid. What I was *just* beginning to get was that he had turned a confident, professional, educated woman into a depressed, quivering, insecure wreck.

 

I still have moments - fewer and less intense.

 

Please, please, please don't ever assume that these men pick the vulnerable, weak or already pathetic. That is NOT how it goes down.

The book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" is another good one, but less provocative.

 

[Laurie4b]

Absolutely

 

Years ago I was talking with the wife of an older couple that we were very good friends with.  We were talking about a mutual friend named "D" who was being abused by her husband who insisted that he had the right to treat his wife how ever he wished because he was "the man."  He controlled what she wore, what she cooks, what she did all day hour-by-hour, and punished her if she failed in any way.  And she refused all help, and insisted that she deserved how he treated her for various reasons.  As a newlywed, I was so horrified by this.  Why would a woman allow herself to be treated like that?

 

 

Essentially the man "grooms" the woman, but in a different way than an abuser grooms a child. He uses a combination of planting and and cultivating seeds of self-doubt, etc. and "carrots" in which she begins to believe if she would just do xyz, everything would be working in the relationship. The abuse typically escalates over time.  Eventually, she's not the woman she once was. For most women, if the guy started out the way he ends up, they wouldn't stand for it.

 

It may be hard to understand the power of psychological manipulation, but it's not a force to be underestimated.

[Laurie4b]

I found my first marriage on every single page of that book.

 

From a clinical, not personal perspective, I like his words on substance abuse and spousal abuse - basically if you sober up an abuser - you have a sober (and "better") abuser.

 

When I went through my court case, I had eventually returned to school for my Masters. One of my Professors had done her doctoral thesis on this topic, and she predicted, with chilling accuracy the MMPI scores for me and my xh. She told me I'd come across as a paranoid. What I was *just* beginning to get was that he had turned a confident, professional, educated woman into a depressed, quivering, insecure wreck.

 

I still have moments - fewer and less intense.

 

Please, please, please don't ever assume that these men pick the vulnerable, weak or already pathetic. That is NOT how it goes down.

The book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" is another good one, but less provocative.

 

Did your xh, come out looking pretty good, as the book says abusers often do? (You don't have to answer if it's too personal. I was just looking for confirmation of what the book said.)

 

[Joanne]

Did your xh, come out looking pretty good, as the book says abusers often do? (You don't have to answer if it's too personal. I was just looking for confirmation of what the book said.)

 

 

 

Ultimately, no. The professionals saw the reality for what it was. But in the short term, yes.  After the ad litem made his decision, xh and his attorney went to the ad litem 3 TIMES trying to convince him to change his mind.

But getting there? Xh is charming, persuasive, and I have increasingly hysterical and PTSD. Xh had systematically removed strong, healthy people who SAW his truth out of my life (my sister, a friend in AZ, my AA sponsor in AZ, my Mom, and a couple at church.)

 

I got the info from the book you are talking about, and created a paginated and tabbed 3 ring binder that chronicled the marriage as it relates to the behavior in the book.

 

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean someone *isn't* after you. ;)

[Scarlett]

You're victim blaming right there. People don't leave abusive situations for a long list of reasons from things like love and psychological issues to just being scared or telling yourself it doesn't matter or not having the resources to get far enough away.

I don't believe it is victim blaming.....I believe it is an honest question. It is difficult to understand.

[SKL]

Yep - I walked away before marrying the jerk - the first time he physically hurt me and said foul things about my mom - but he had worked up to it and felt rather confident in himself at that point.  I was to the point of being willing to change/accept a lot of things and also do some manipulation of my own so I could do what I wanted without him necessarily knowing it.  (For a person who always prided myself on honesty, that was pretty pathetic in itself.)  Not to mention that being with him would probably mean losing all the other relationships I cared about.  I am so thankful that he hurt me before I was too far gone emotionally.

 

And he tried very hard to humbly beg me to come back.  Thankfully by then I had snapped out of it.  He still calls once in a while saying "don't be a stranger."  I used to call back and he'd give me a guilt trip somehow.  Talk about narcissists.  My goodness.

[gardenmom5]

 Abusive men often have normal mental health profiles. Their wives often have mental health issues that are the result of the abuse (anxiety, depression, etc.) Thus sometimes in court proceedings, particularly as related to child custody,  she can look like the messed up one. 

that's also pretty typical of narcisstic mother's and how they affect especially their daughters.  outsider's (and family members in denial) think the NPD person is "normal", and the daughter's are an ungrateful wretch because they're saying such awful things about their mother.  unless the daughter thinks she herself is nuts because of the mind games.

[G5052]

You're victim blaming right there. People don't leave abusive situations for a long list of reasons from things like love and psychological issues to just being scared or telling yourself it doesn't matter or not having the resources to get far enough away.

 

Actually I was trying to understand.  I didn't see that in myself at all, and couldn't understand it.  Of course now as a middle-aged woman who has seen more of life, I see how women get into that downward spiral.  It was a shock to me though as a young woman.

[Caribbean Queen]

 

Cultural support of male domination of/violence towards women is rampant in this culture.

How so?

[Santi]

Actually I was trying to understand.  I didn't see that in myself at all, and couldn't understand it.  Of course now as a middle-aged woman who has seen more of life, I see how women get into that downward spiral.  It was a shock to me though as a young woman.

 

 

I mistook your question as one of those rude rhetorical kind of things people say. Apologies. 

 

How so?

Women are taught that we shouldn't wear certain clothes, say certain things, act certain ways, that way men won't assault us. When teenage boys rape girls we're supposed to feel sorry that their football careers are ruined. When women in skimpy clothes are attacked people don't care because showing your body apparently gives men consent to do whatever they want to you.

[Joanne]

How so?

Music, videos, magazines. The most insulting words towards women are sexual words (bit..., cu..., tw..., pus..,) still entrenched glass ceilings. Church structure. Valuation of masculine over female processing And making care taking pathological. The qualifiers such as "date" or "marital" rape, "verbal abuse. I could go on but I am on my phone.

[Renee in NC]

Essentially the man "grooms" the woman, but in a different way than an abuser grooms a child. He uses a combination of planting and and cultivating seeds of self-doubt, etc. and "carrots" in which she begins to believe if she would just do xyz, everything would be working in the relationship. The abuse typically escalates over time.  Eventually, she's not the woman she once was. For most women, if the guy started out the way he ends up, they wouldn't stand for it.

 

It may be hard to understand the power of psychological manipulation, but it's not a force to be underestimated.

 

Not only that, but it creates behavior patterns that will follow the victim into the next relationship.  The victim may have a hard time recognizing the behavior of the former abuser *as* abuse, so looks for a new spouse/partner with some of the same characteristics. When coupled with the behavior patterns from the initial abusive relationship, this can lead to a new abusive relationship.

 

The woman may not even realize that there *is* a particular behavior pattern, until someone else points it out.  

[G5052]

I too recently read this book, and I posted a very long, very detailed review of the book on my blog here.  I read it and blogged about it for the specific purpose of being able to copy and paste my blog post to send as an email to our church leadership, so they could be aware of these issues in men, since there is a woman I am in a one-on-one Bible study with who is in a marriage with an angry controlling man who fits this book perfectly.  So in my review, I am really pulling out specific things from the book that really fit this one situation! 

 

Yes, the patriarchal model in conservative Christian circles makes me extremely uneasy because of this. The man can justify the abuse, and the woman can be shamed into thinking that she should accept that. And the man is ***not** the only one that should be making major decisions for the family.

[Rosie_0801]

How so?

 

So little is expected of men, in many ways. A man can quit his job, but if he pays his $30/month child support, he's still a good daddy. (Not disputing that he has the right but morally it stinks.) He can refuse to pay child support and still be a good daddy because no one will know unless his ex says so publicly, and that'd be poor form so she'd be classed as the trouble maker. Or he's still a good daddy because he is legally allowed to quit his job. Sometimes I think the only thing a man must do to be a good daddy is know his kids' names.

 

 

For the record, my ex does pay his child support. :)

[Laurie4b]

How so?

 

Cultural reinforcement through popular media:

If you listen to the lyrics of popular songs, they are often about male domination.

 

Scenes in movies can reinforce it as well. Since I'm such an old fogey, the one that pops to mind is the scene in which Rhett Butler sweeps up Scarlett O'Hara, who is protesting, and carries her upstairs to the bedroom. We are left to infer that intercourse followed and rather than be construed as marital rape, it resulted in a calmer, nicer Scarlett. (It's been a long time since I watched the movie, so someone else might do a better job.)

 

Does Shades of Grey fit into this category? (Haven't read it and have only read a little about it, but that's my impression.)

 

In a different example, when I watch an old movie, I am usually shocked at first to see all the cigarette smoking  --not because cigarette smoking shocks me, but because it's rarely seen in movies nowadays.  It's because cultural attitudes towards smoking have changed. Cultural attitudes toward male domination are still going strong in popular media. So if a boy is an entitled chap and tunes into what he hears and sees, he gets that "men are kings, women are their inferiors who may need harsh handling" message.

 

If you think about other areas of the world where what we would clearly say is abuse is culturally enshrined there, you can get an idea of the impact of cultural values. Certain Values + Entitlement = Abuse

[Santi]

Does Shades of Grey fit into this category? (Haven't read it and have only read a little about it, but that's my impression.)

 

 

 

Yes, yes, yes!! Very few people understand how angry fifty shades of grey makes me. I know a lot about dom/sub type things (oops) and that book disguises multiple sexual assault things as that. At one point she uses her safeword and he continues having sex with her, and then berates her for it saying things about how he thought she loved him. Continuing after someone's said their strongest safeword is rape as they've just told you no. And you're most certainly not supposed to guilt someone for it.

[Joanne]

 

If you think about other areas of the world where what we would clearly say is abuse is culturally enshrined there, you can get an idea of the impact of cultural values. Certain Values + Entitlement = Abuse

 

The money, power, and prestige has been centered on MEN (in most cultures) throughout time. This continues to play out in our culture and serves to support the lesser status of women. It's culturally sanctioned.

 

I see it documented in writing in both the New and Old Testament, in the Koran and in the structure of Buddhism.

[gardenmom5]

 

Does Shades of Grey fit into this category? (Haven't read it and have only read a little about it, but that's my impression.)

 

 

Yes, yes, yes!! Very few people understand how angry fifty shades of grey makes me. I know a lot about dom/sub type things (oops) and that book disguises multiple sexual assault things as that. At one point she uses her safeword and he continues having sex with her, and then berates her for it saying things about how he thought she loved him. Continuing after someone's said their strongest safeword is rape as they've just told you no. And you're most certainly not supposed to guilt someone for it.

when the book came out it gave me a very bad vibe even with little info.   I later read an extended review by someone who saw it as pedophilia.  even though the female character is "supposedly" an adult - she is incredibly naïve, wears pig-tails, and other personality traits and behaviors are very child-like.  the character reminded the reviewer of a 12year old girl.

[Santi]

when the book came out it gave me a very bad vibe even with little info. I later read an extended review by someone who saw it as pedophilia. even though the female character is "supposedly" an adult - she is incredibly naïve, wears pig-tails, and other personality traits and behaviors are very child-like. the character reminded the reviewer of a 12year old girl.

Eh, lots of guys and girls like the whole idea of acting younger and that's fine when done between consenting adults imo. I'm hesitant to call the main female character consenting throughout a lot of it, because their whole relationship is so unclear (I suppose the title is fitting). That's the problem with fifty shades of grey though, it makes kinkiness seem even more disgusting than people already thought.

[LucyStoner]

How so?

How not so?

[LucyStoner]

The main reason my husband didn't become an abuser/batterer is because he actively worked to reject the messages in gender he got from his father and the larger culture starting as a very young adult when he joined a feminist men against violence organization. Because he rejected misogyny he was able to overcome his family history and learn better adaptive behaviors.

[Shelly in VA]

I've seen women in relationships with abusive men where the men looked to lots of other people like a charming, rational, caring person and the women looked to " a little crazy" to other people. So I thought in light of raising awareness this month, that I'd share some things from the book.

 

Quote: "He isn't abusive  because he's angry, he's angry because he's an abusive. "

 

Abusive men often have normal mental health profiles. Their wives often have mental health issues that are the result of the abuse (anxiety, depression, etc.) Thus sometimes in court proceedings, particularly as related to child custody,  she can look like the messed up one.

 

 

To change the focus of the discussion slightly, I wonder, based on some of the information above, how should parents teach their teens to consider people they date? What I mean is, we don't teach our daughters to avoid charming, rational, caring men, but at the same time, the men who may become abusive aren't angry initially, they only become angry after the cycle of abuse starts. So maybe we should teach our daughters to be slightly cautious when spending time with charmers. What about sons? Should we be modeling/teaching them to be sincere and honest but not "charming?" 

 

I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic. These are real questions that I am wondering about in light of the discussion, but I'm not sure they'll come across electronically the way I intend them!

[kroe1]

I wonder if the twirking machines of this culture, I.e. Miley compared to the s*x symbols of recent decades! I.e. Marilyn have anything to do with the number of abuse cases. Obviously, abuse is culturally defined, but do society's role models really affect the numbers. Does anyone know?

[mommymilkies]

Chilling. I know this situation all too well.

 

Another bit about how society sees men:

http://scientopia.org/blogs/proflikesubstance/2013/08/07/repost-on-being-a-great-dad/

 

It's not the article I was looking for, but it makes a similar point. A man is seen with his kids "You're such a great dad!" just for being there. I'm NOT saying he might not be, but it shows rather low expectations when so many are great, and others are abusers that look good on the outside. I know that sounds convoluted. I'm having trouble verbalizing what I mean. My ex has seen our two kids maybe a handful of times in 11 years, never at his request. Never. He pays child support only when the state catches up with him. But whenever I'm in our hometown, everyone asks me why I keep the kids from him since he's suuuuuuch a great father. Never mind the truth. I am Demon Woman. Charmers are so good at what they do. It's amazing how many can't see through it. NOT that there's something wrong with everyone else, but until you've lived it, it's nearly impossible to catch.

[mommymilkies]

I wonder if the twirking machines of this culture, I.e. Miley compared to the s*x symbols of recent decades! I.e. Marilyn have anything to do with the number of abuse cases. Obviously, abuse is culturally defined, but do society's role models really affect the numbers. Does anyone know?

Or are they simply reflections of what society idealizes? Miley didn't learn that from thin air, kwim?

[gardenmom5]

Chilling. I know this situation all too well.

 

Another bit about how society sees men:

http://scientopia.org/blogs/proflikesubstance/2013/08/07/repost-on-being-a-great-dad/

 

It's not the article I was looking for, but it makes a similar point. A man is seen with his kids "You're such a great dad!" just for being there. I'm NOT saying he might not be, but it shows rather low expectations when so many are great, and others are abusers that look good on the outside. I know that sounds convoluted. I'm having trouble verbalizing what I mean. My ex has seen our two kids maybe a handful of times in 11 years, never at his request. Never. He pays child support only when the state catches up with him. But whenever I'm in our hometown, everyone asks me why I keep the kids from him since he's suuuuuuch a great father. Never mind the truth. I am Demon Woman. Charmers are so good at what they do. It's amazing how many can't see through it. NOT that there's something wrong with everyone else, but until you've lived it, it's nearly impossible to catch.

or - a man can be traveling with his kids and be seen as a potential pedophile.  or even just sitting next to another child. or more  

 

here - he *only* took his kids shopping.

[mommymilkies]

or - a man can be traveling with his kids and be seen as a potential pedophile. or even just sitting next to another child. or more

 

here - he *only* took his kids shopping.

It's crazy. The first reminds me of the Roma story in Ireland. We put people so easily into categories.

[Laurie4b]

To change the focus of the discussion slightly, I wonder, based on some of the information above, how should parents teach their teens to consider people they date? What I mean is, we don't teach our daughters to avoid charming, rational, caring men, but at the same time, the men who may become abusive aren't angry initially, they only become angry after the cycle of abuse starts. So maybe we should teach our daughters to be slightly cautious when spending time with charmers. What about sons? Should we be modeling/teaching them to be sincere and honest but not "charming?" 

 

I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic. These are real questions that I am wondering about in light of the discussion, but I'm not sure they'll come across electronically the way I intend them!

 

There is no reason to avoid charming, rational, caring men! :) 

 

The issue isn't charm, it's entitlement.  So avoid being or dating a man or a woman who feels entitled to have the universe revolve around oneself.

 

The book, "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" has a good chapter on "How Abuse Starts" if you want to discuss something with your kids.

[gardenmom5]

There is no reason to avoid charming, rational, caring men! :)

 

The issue isn't charm, it's entitlement.  So avoid being or dating a man or a woman who feels entitled to have the universe revolve around oneself.

 

The book, "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" has a good chapter on "How Abuse Starts" if you want to discuss something with your kids.

I think for me - flags started going up with certain types of "charm".  (grandmamma is NPD.  they can be charming.  when they want to be, or an outsider is looking.)  even if they were sincere, or at least innocuous, I automatically didn't trust them - 'cause grandmamma was only charming when she was getting out her figurative knives.

and that is something that can be common to certain types of abusers.  

 

teaching teens to look past the charm, is it sincere?  are they after something?  what exactly is being said?  not just how.  these people can hide (at least initially) the sense of entitlement.  do they do "too much"

 for someone?  watch out for martyrs too.  run away as fast as you can.

[Halftime Hope]

Ds18 is a sweet, funny, loving, and thoughtful guy, and quite cute, too.  But one of the sorrows in his life is one of his peers who is a precious young lady who is repeating the mistakes made in her family of origin.  This gal picks charming, abusive, liars who control and pressure her, and then she would come to ds, her good friend, and unloads to him.  On the third such guy, ds finally told her he wouldn't be her dumping ground on this any more, and that while he cared about her, she needed to make better choices and take her frustrations to her mom, a counselor. 

 

I'm so glad ds saw through this pattern and woke up before he got more enmeshed in it.

[Joanne]

To change the focus of the discussion slightly, I wonder, based on some of the information above, how should parents teach their teens to consider people they date? What I mean is, we don't teach our daughters to avoid charming, rational, caring men, but at the same time, the men who may become abusive aren't angry initially, they only become angry after the cycle of abuse starts. So maybe we should teach our daughters to be slightly cautious when spending time with charmers. What about sons? Should we be modeling/teaching them to be sincere and honest but not "charming?"

 

I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic. These are real questions that I am wondering about in light of the discussion, but I'm not sure they'll come across electronically the way I intend them!

Teach them about power and control. Comments about clothes, friends, family, hair, style, grades ....

 

Jealousy.

 

Withholding affection and interaction if mad.

 

Not respecting ALL no's such as maybe, not now, I am not sure, we shouldn't, etc.

[8circles]

 

 

There is no reason to avoid charming, rational, caring men! :)

 

Well, it may not be rational, but I've never met a charming man that didn't also give me the creeps.  

 

Rational, caring men are great - charming I'll pass on every time.

 

I think that for me, there's something to the term "charming" that implies that something's amiss or not as it seems.  

from thefreedictionary.com

 

charm  (chärm)

n.

 

1. The power or quality of pleasing or delighting; attractiveness: a breezy tropical setting of great charm.

2. A particular quality that attracts; a delightful characteristic: A mischievous grin was among the child's many charms.

3. A small ornament, such as one worn on a bracelet.

4. An item worn for its supposed magical benefit, as in warding off evil; an amulet.

5. An action or formula thought to have magical power.

6. The chanting of a magic word or verse; incantation.

 

 

#4, 5, & 6

[MinivanMom]

To change the focus of the discussion slightly, I wonder, based on some of the information above, how should parents teach their teens to consider people they date? What I mean is, we don't teach our daughters to avoid charming, rational, caring men, but at the same time, the men who may become abusive aren't angry initially, they only become angry after the cycle of abuse starts. So maybe we should teach our daughters to be slightly cautious when spending time with charmers. What about sons? Should we be modeling/teaching them to be sincere and honest but not "charming?" 

 

I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic. These are real questions that I am wondering about in light of the discussion, but I'm not sure they'll come across electronically the way I intend them!

 

I've always considered "charming" to be a big red flag. I'm not talking "nice" or "friendly" or "personable", but "charming". It's that quality of always being happy and friendly and deliberately "on" in a way that isn't real or natural. "Charming" is a phony wall leaves you thinking, "What is this person hiding?" I don't necessarily teach my children to be wary of charming, but I would like to teach them to be wary of people that aren't "real". People should show a genuine range of emotions that are appropriate to the circumstances: sad when someone dies, angry/upset when something wrong or unfair occurs, empathetic when someone else suffers hardship, etc. If the only emotion they are displaying for you is "charming" then something is off. 

[Anne in CA]

Yesterday at the restaurant dh and I own I was helping a waitress who got behind and I took a man's Pepsi to the wrong table.  The waitress had been confused where it went. The man then told me that he would "grab you by the hair if you walk by with my drink again." I was horrified that maybe this is how he treats his wife when she doesn't please him. No man in his forties should be joking like that. After he got his soda and food he was perfectly charming. That reminded me of this thread. A man who said something like that to a food server should be avoided like the plague.

[Joanne]

Yesterday at the restaurant dh and I own I was helping a waitress who got behind and I took a man's Pepsi to the wrong table. The waitress had been confused where it went. The man then told me that he would "grab you by the hair if you walk by with my drink again." I was horrified that maybe this is how he treats his wife when she doesn't please him. No man in his forties should be joking like that. After he got his soda and food he was perfectly charming. That reminded me of this thread. A man who said something like that to a food server should be avoided like the plague.

I agree with your observation and it ties in with the behavior pattern of male abusers.

 

It is common for men of this type to sexualize nearly every interaction with women. Later in an abusive dynamic, the name calling makes frequent use is female sexual insults: bi..., cu.., tw...

 

It is yet another way to minimize and diminish a woman's authentic power and true self.

[Anne in CA]

I can remember my older cousin breaking up with a man because his brothers joked like this. It upset people that she broke up with him over things his family did, after all, that wasn't him. But she felt he didn't stand up and say it was wrong so she was afraid that if they married he would talk to her like that. As  an adult I am impressed that she realized that when older people that her were upset that she broke up with him.

[Laurie4b]

I guess I use the term "charming" to mean something different than others here. I use it like the definition posted above: 

1. The power or quality of pleasing or delighting; attractiveness: a breezy tropical setting of great charm.

2. A particular quality that attracts; a delightful characteristic:

 

I usually think it's a nice quality to say that someone is charming. Good to know that it has negative connotations to so many.