Is DH right about DS8?

[Halcyon]

I had to drive a friend to the airport this morning, so DH agreed to stay home and supervise the kids while they did their schoolwork. When I returned home, DH said he felt strongly that DS8 wasn't being challenged enough with his current work, and that he finishes too quickly because it's easy. I had made an effort this year to back off a bit from last year, and was feeling as though I was finally getting the hang of "relaxed rigorous" but now I am questioning myself.

 

Here's what DS8 does in a typical day:

 

1 lesson of Lively Latin 2 plus vocab review.

1 lesson or more of Duolingo Spanish

Science free reading and/or a Young Scientist Kit experiment, plus perhaps a Brainpop video.

History reading from SOTW and written narration on an aspect he found interesting.

Writing-he is writing a novel now, and is on Chapter 5. We also do the Arrow some days.

Grammar: Daily Editing 2x a week

Spelling 3x a week

Reading: one hour a day of reading. Right now he is re-reading all of Roald Dahl's books which he loves.

 

This all takes him til around noon or 1230 to finish.

 

Thoughts?

 

ETA: Forgot math! he is doing MM4 and Zaccaro Challenge Math daily. 2-3 pages

[mathmarm]

So...is everything 85-100% correct? How is his long-term retention for Latin and Spanish (can he talk about lessons 1 from this year)? What does he do for math? What is the quality of his writing like? How does he spend his spare time?

[Halcyon]

Yes, everything is done well. I would say he gets sloppy with Daily Editing. Latin requires daily vocab and or grammar review so we do that. His spanish retention is great.

 

I feel his writing is good, perhaps could be better if he were more careful but he's only 8 so I don't push too hard on that. 

 

In his spare time, he is learning to sew Barbie clothes and makes dresses and pants with DH's sewing machine. He plays cards. He takes photographs. He loves Uno, Stratego and Settlers of Catan. He plays in the pool with his brother and reads Archie comics and lots of books.

 

Here's the beginning of a story he wrote a few months ago (he won't let me read his current novel!)

 

Hi, I'm Scott. I'm going to tell you all about my adventure that I had when I was 10. Right now, i'm 16. Anyway, if you like action, computer game tips and futuristic robots  mixed together, this is the book for you! It all started when my Stepfather and I were fiddling with a toy robot. I wanted to play with it all afternoon. But after we accidentally made it fall off an oak tree, we had to fix it (obviously). But while we were fixing it, Stepdad touched a wrong spot, and Bzzzzzzz!-- after a puff of smoke and dirt, I saw Stepdad crying and a pile of sand-like powder. Of course, Stepdad's arm was not there!

I screamed for help, and help came! Even though I guess I overreacted, a helicopter swooped down, took us for a ride to the hospital, took us to the emergency room....all for an arm that was electrocuted off!

[Farrar]

That's clearly plenty of work. My 9 yos do a similar amount of work. We also aim for relaxed but with some rigor.

 

But this is, on some level, an individual thing. My boys aren't gifted or anything and they're slowish workers. So it's about the kid and his individual needs. It's also about wht you value. More work doesn't mean more challenge and more free time can be a value in and of itself, especially for an 8 yo.

[Miss Mousie]

I can't comment on the rigor of your materials, but that's a darned cute story.  And it is about the same quality of writing (sentence length, variety, structure) I see from my 12yo (in public school).  I don't know whether your son composed on a keyboard or by hand, though, which may make a difference; my son has always had to write by hand, so I think that requirement limits his written expression.  At age 8 it was more like "Yesterday I went to the park.  It was awesome.  The end."  :huh:

 

 

[mathmarm]

I think that its plenty (There's no rule that says school must be 6+ hours). I would think that it might be time to start doing some math, if you haven't already, but then again, I'm a math-nut. Don't tell anyone I said this, but you could wait until sometime between 9-11yo to introduce formal study of mathematics and come out no worse for wear. So long as kids don't struggle or have any major issues, arithmetic and the basics of many varieties of math can be learned--and learned well--within 2 years. Kids just need a good understanding of counting--(which includes place-value, skip counting forward and backwards, counting on and counting back) and some number sense to learn most K-6 or K-8 math. I don't, by default, recommend this delayed approach, but I have seen the value of it for 'typical' kids, especially some girls who are more verbal younger than they are abstract. ETA: Nevermind, I see where you mentioned what he does for math.

 

If you must add something now, my vote is to up the ante with Spanish because now is a great opportunity to broaden his exposure and proficiency in a language while he is young. I suggest getting toddlers and childrens' books from the library and having him read them in Spanish. Get him a Spanish dictionary and learn a few new words each day, even if they aren't included in his Duolingo program. I would get a good audio course for Spanish and have him work on/work through that more intensely at least a few times a week.

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

How does Son feel?  About how much work it is, whether it is hard or easy?

 

It looks like plenty to me . . . I can't imagine what I'd add specifically to an 8 year old's schedule.  Is he happy with how he spends his time?  I think it's more important for him to have time to pursue his interests & projects, (and his novel!!) than it is for him to be given more (or "more rigorous") schoolwork.

 

My own bias is that at this age, as long as they are covering the basics - which you clearly are - time to play and explore and be a kid is the most precious thing you can give him.

 

What does DH think should be different?  Tell him he doesn't get to say "too easy" and walk away.  If you bring a criticism, bring a specific idea or solution.  What specifically does he suggest that your ds should be doing that he isn't doing now?  

 

Everybody's a critic  :001_rolleyes: .  You think deeply about challenging your sons appropriately, and you question yourself - that's good.  It's good to be open to input.  But it's also fine to say, "Thanks for the input, but I think I'm making the best choices for ds right now.  I'll keep an eye on it."  If dh has specific suggestions, by all means consider them, but don't take a vague, impressionistic comment and let it make you question your whole educational plan for the year!!! 

 

 

[Kim in Appalachia]

If your dh thinks that your son needs to be challanged more, maybe you could do that with some sort of game/kit project.  Lego sells Mindstorms.  It 's pricey, but your son could be programing a robot.  

 

There are also other educational/play type kits that could increase the challange without increasing the workload.

[mathmarm]

How does Son feel?  About how much work it is, whether it is hard or easy?

...

What does DH think should be different?  Tell him he doesn't get to say "too easy" and walk away.  If you bring a criticism, bring a specific idea or solution.  What specifically does he suggest that your ds should be doing that he isn't doing now?  

....

If dh has specific suggestions, by all means consider them, but don't take a vague, impressionistic comment and let it make you question your whole educational plan for the year!!!

 

 

This, what exactly bothers your husband about your sons work currently?

[boscopup]

I aim for about 3ish hours of work in 3rd grade, so your stuff looks fine, and finishing at 12:30 looks fine. He doesn't need as much work as the older child.

[Arcadia]

DH said he felt strongly that DS8 wasn't being challenged enough with his current work, and that he finishes too quickly because it's easy.

 

My kids tend to "fool around" less when daddy is supervising for a change.   So they speed up on doing their work. That might give daddy the impression that work is done "too quickly because it is easy"

 

Another thing is that the materials may really be too easy. My boys finish their virtual school assigned math in 10 mins or less.  That is why hubby happily pays for the AoPS books for them. It is possible to use "harder" material without adding on school time.

 

You need to ask your hubby to qualify what he mean by too easy.

 

ETA:

When my hubby says it is too easy, he means that my boys are dozing while doing their work.  One of mine actually falls asleep when he is bored. We would then discuss how to go about challenging them.

[MomatHWTK]

If I have a child who does well with the course of acadmics I've chosen then I go ahead and challenge them with non-work academics.  Meaning I don't add another class, but we watch college level TC and Coursera classes and discuss them.  That might be a way for you to offer your DS access to higher level information even if he is not ready for the math or underlying work production.  (i.e. We watch the animal behavior Coursera classes, but I don't always expect every child in the room to understand and interpret the research studies.) 

 

 

[idnib]

Another thing is that the materials may really be too easy. My boys finish their virtual school assigned math in 10 mins or less.  That is why hubby happily pays for the AoPS books for them. It is possible to use "harder" material without adding on school time.

 

 

 

 

This is what I came here to say. Making things more rigorous doesn't necessarily mean adding more materials/subjects or spending more time.

 

I agree with the others you need to get specifics from DH or not worry about it if he's too vague. Your current plan sounds good to me.

[lewelma]

Given the level of the work you have listed, what I noticed was the fiction he was reading was lower level than the rest.  Is Dahl challenging to him?  If so, great; if not, I would bump it up for assigned reading and have him read Dahl for fun.  My son was a good reader at 8 so comparisons might not be appropriate, but he was reading things like Little Princess, The Princess and the Goblin, and Five Children and It. 

 

Ruth in NZ

[Mom2TheTeam]

He is doing more than my 8 year old son.  ;)  Mine just turned 8 this past Saturday and he is in 2nd.  Mine does less writing and less reading. Plus, mine isn't doing a second language at all.  I think mine is doing just fine...maybe not.  LOL!! 

 

Anyway, I agree with whoever said to ask your husband to elaborate.  He needs to tell you exactly what he means by this.  My husband is very supportive of me HS'ing our children.  But, he would also be the first to tell you he doesn't really get how HS'ing actually works in practice.  (he is learning though!)  So, if he said this, it would probably mean that he is comparing the time my kids take to "do school" v. the time it takes PS kids to sit through a school day. He would assume they are not being challenged simply because they are not doing school for as many hours as PS kids are in school.  He tends to compare everything to PS and doesn't really understand why it is different until I explain it.  Anyway, my point is he needs to elaborate so you can either 1. help him understand why your son is doing enough or 2. find a way to up the ante because you agree with him. 

 

Good luck finding a solution either educating your husband or changing something up.  :)

[texasmama]

He is doing more than my 8 year old son. ;) Mine just turned 8 this past Saturday and he is in 2nd. Mine does less writing and less reading. Plus, mine isn't doing a second language at all. :)

This. Except mine will turn 8 on Sunday.

[Halcyon]

Given the level of the work you have listed, what I noticed was the fiction he was reading was lower level than the rest.  Is Dahl challenging to him?  If so, great; if not, I would bump it up for assigned reading and have him read Dahl for fun.  My son was a good reader at 8 so comparisons might not be appropriate, but he was reading things like Little Princess, The Princess and the Goblin, and Five Children and It. 

 

Ruth in NZ

 

No, Dahl is not challenging LOL. He just loves his books. So far for "school" reading this year he has read Black Beauty, a few Kate Di Camillo books (Desperaux, Tiger Rising) and The Borrowers. That's an interesting comment though-he likes reading "easier" stuff for fun--that's not unusual though, right? 

[Halcyon]

Plus your DH is basing this off of working with him for one day?  That doesn't seem fair.

Good point. I mean, math happened to be easy for him today. But yesterday? not so much. DH also didn't realize that DS can skip sections if he finds it easy, and just take the end of chapter test. And we haven't really hit a groove with science yet, so that was an issue. 

DH just felt that DS could be doing higher level work and that he was just coasting because it was all "too easy."

[Hunter]

Harder doesn't mean more learning. Sometimes we learn best when it's easy. We understand it fully. We can apply it. We use it.

 

Greater volume can burn a student out. They start to pace themselves to survive the onslaught. They stop self-educating and unschooling. They learn less. They do less.

 

Not only are you giving your child plenty, but your child is seeking out quality learning activities to engage in on his own. He is pushing himself.

 

He is also engaging in some easy but age appropriate activities. Gifted children have the RIGHT to engage in age appropriate activities.

 

Just because you can, doesn't always mean you should. I personally don't care about "can". Do we always push ourselves to the max in every area of our lives all the time? How much less should a child be expected to do that?

 

I cannot agree with your husband. You have been experimenting with giving your some some breathing room and your son is responding in all the right ways. He is interested in learning things and he is being creative. He's happy and healthy. He's not pushed to the max and showing pain. Doing his best does not start with pain, it ends with pain. Pain is not involved in "best". Pain is other unnecessary and bad things.

 

"Rigor" is what the Hebrew slaves in Egypt suffered through. I personally don't make it a goal for myself or any students of mine.

 

Efficient learning so they can learn as much as possible as fast as they can? Yes! Rigor for the sake of rigor--No! I'll take efficient over rigor any day. And I'll take a curriculum that includes some self-education and unschooling, over a curriculum that requires large volumes of passive and obedient activities.

 

He's 8. He's just a little boy. He's never going to get the chance to be 8 again. This time is precious.

[texasmama]

I really like that, Hunter. :)

[Farrar]

No, Dahl is not challenging LOL. He just loves his books. So far for "school" reading this year he has read Black Beauty, a few Kate Di Camillo books (Desperaux, Tiger Rising) and The Borrowers. That's an interesting comment though-he likes reading "easier" stuff for fun--that's not unusual though, right? 

 

I'm not sure why anyone would think Dahl is too easy for an 8 yo.  While I don't take huge stock in Lexile and RL numbers, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is 810/grade 5.9.  I mean, even if it is "easy" for him, he should read the great books for 8 yos and the ones you mention are some of them.  The hour of reading with a good book seems more key to me.  It sounds like he's doing great.

[StephanieF]

If he doesn't read Dahl now he never will.  I always remind myself that whatever ds is doing is at the expense of doing something else.  So for example, some people say that their child is capable of understanding complex books and so that is what they read to them, perhaps missing out on winnie the pooh etc.  What a shame to miss out on something so great as nursery rhymes because the child is capable of understanding more!  If they do miss out on these then they probably won't see the importance of these stories to their children.

 

Stephanie

[lmrich]

He seems like a clever kid. I would throw in some logic puzzles. At 9 he should be done after 4 hours of work. He still needs to play and dream and just run around outside. That is the job of a 9 year old.

[Jaybee]

 

It looks like plenty to me . . . I can't imagine what I'd add specifically to an 8 year old's schedule.  Is he happy with how he spends his time?  I think it's more important for him to have time to pursue his interests & projects, (and his novel!!) than it is for him to be given more (or "more rigorous") schoolwork.

 

 

I agree with this and with Hunter's post. If you just give him more academic bookwork, then he may lose the energy (physically, creatively, mentally) to pursue the kinds of activities that bring him joy and develop less visible (for now) skills. It sounds like there is a really good balance of keeping him going academically while still allowing him the time and space to develop other angles of his gifts and personality.

[matrips]

It looks fine. I'm not sure what 2-3 pages of your math is like because each curriculum has different numbers of problems on pages and difficultiy levels etc.

 

I have three 8yo kids and it's interesting to see them work .. Some days I might have one done at noon, one at 2, and the other still working that evening. I think the amount and type of work I give is challenging, but I try to make it so they can be done by lunchtime with steady work. Some choose to work steadily and some goof off or dawdle. One thing I'm careful not to do this year is to un-reward them by giving them more work for finishing steadily and quickly. When they are done, they are done.

[Hunter]

Also to consider is that a lot of gifted children are not gifted evenly. It's hard to challenge them consistently. They know how to challenge THEMSELVES so much better than we can. Most gifted children can use their gifts to cover up their disabilities when kept at grade level. But when working fully at the level of their gifts, they have nothing left over to compensate their weaker areas, and there is more discrepancy between their weaknesses and the expectations on them. So just upping the difficulty level a tiny bit can cause them to instantly crumble. There is no such place as that place of mild discomfort some parents remember and think they need to provide.

 

Also many gifted children have more anxiety than children on the hump of the bell curve. Forcing them to work above their emotional maturity and above their weaker areas is unnecessarily anxiety producing.

 

And upping the difficultly level often ups the volume of work at the same time. Then there is less time for age appropriate arts and crafts and stress reducing and self-soothing activities. This further increases the anxiety, as young children are no longer having their bodily and spiritual needs met, with a large increase in mental stimulation. Mind, body and soul balance is important, for healthy people and especially children.

 

I believe that gifted children should be ALLOWED to compact and accelerate, but not be required to. I think it should be mostly their choice. I've yet to meet a truly lazy gifted child. I've met depressed and anxious children who avoid being over stimulated and overwhelmed, but that is not lazy. And even those children are often pushing themselves in at least one narrow area.

 

Colleges, now, are having to deal with mental health issues like they never had to before. At least partly I believe that has a lot to do with increasing pressure on children starting in the earliest grades and never letting up year after year after year.

[NotSoObvious]

That is plenty for an 8 year old and you are obviously very on top of what your children are learning. 

 

It's easy to be critical when you are stepping in for one day to "do the next thing." There isn't any planning that went into it and he isn't operating from a big picture viewpoint. 

 

Honestly, I really would keep chugging ahead with your well researched choices, as long as it's working for you and your son.

[katilac]

I don't want to say to *ignore* your dh, exactly, but it was one day. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You make your plans over time, and your results come over time. I've read many of your posts; you didn't just randomly pick a stack of workbooks that looked easy.

 

I put much more weight into what you say about his free time, rather than what books he is actually using. It sounds like he is active, engaged, and creative when left to his own devices. That indicates that he is not bored in general, not frustrated, and that he is getting quality 'input' that he then expresses in a variety of ways.

 

Many people, I think, have a very hard time letting go of the stereotypical school experience. Part of it is just that it is SO ingrained, and part of it is what I sometimes call Educational Puritanism: if you're having fun, you must be doing it wrong. It makes them twitchy to see kids cuddling with the dog while doing math, reading in the tree house, or finishing by lunch.

 

Back to dh and his thoughts: by all means, spend some money if it will make him happy, and buy some cool and challenging supplements to have on hand. I mean, I'm sure you already have plenty, but maybe dh would like to pick a few. Go for it, dad! Overall, tho', sounds like you are having a good year, and that your son is spending his time in great ways.

[RootAnn]

I remember what you guys were working on last year (admittedly more so for your older than your younger) and WOW. I followed your rigor thread and your OM thread(s), too. 

 

I think you should let everything continue the way it is for the rest of this 'semester' and talk to the boys (with your DH present) around Thanksgiving or Christmas about what they like/dislike about this year, what they would change about 2nd semester, and what they feel like they want to 'step up' (if anything) in terms of time/rigor. 

 

Honestly, it looks like just the right amount of work (a la Hunter's post #21) while allowing him to explore on his own. If I had kids that would do this, I'd certainly give them more time to do it.

 

I think you have 'relaxed rigorous' just right.

[LMD]

I don't know about the workload.

 

But, I have had similar conversations with my DH.  I ask what specific area he is seeing a deficit in (caveat - DH sees different things in the kids to me, especially DS) and what sort of solution he thinks would help.  For example, he pointed out and I agreed that DS could use some work in a specific area, the result is his schooling now includes a 'search and find' activity (like where's wally).

 

A fresh pair of eyes from someone who also loves the kids is something I'd discuss further before disregarding.  Perhaps the discussion would be enough to allay DH's worries? 

[Acadie]

What would your dh like to do with him?  Ongoing science exploration, building project, logic games as father/son activities?  Sounds like a perfect opportunity for him to enrich the mix with his own contributions. 

 

Amy

[Halcyon]

I might dial up the science a bit, but otherwise, what you're doing sounds impressive. Two foreign languages at age 8, and writing a novel and reading novels every day as well? Very nice!

 

 

Thank you-we are starting Ellen McHenry's Botany unit (he and his brother will work together on it as there are two levels) and I think that will be fun.