He hates math. Any advice or encouragement for me? UPDATE

[Mom2TheTeam]

UPDATE POST #48

 

My son, 8 in a couple weeks and in 2nd grade, hates math.  He complains the entire time we are doing it.  It takes twice as long and we never get done what I want to because of his complaining.   Some days, he is fine with doing math, but it's rare and there is no rhyme or reason to when.  His attitude toward math is VERY frustrating and it's starting to rub off on his younger brother.  Just today his younger brother said, "If Zack doesn't like math, I'm don't either."  He is in K.  *sigh*

 

He is doing Singapore 2A.  He's done Singapore since K.  He isn't bad at math.  In fact, he's pretty good at it.  He picks a lot of it up before we cover it.  Singapore is the way he thinks (not me though).  I really don't think the problem is Singapore.  He likes the pictures and often colors them after he does the WB page.  If they had no pictures, I know he would complain.  And, as I said, he thinks about math like Singapore is teaching it even though I don't. 

 

He is being challenged, but not too much.  I realized in 1B that we were going too slow for him.  We sped up a lot and finished that.  Now, he can do the work, but it isn't too easy.  I think we are where he should be.

 

He doesn't have his subtraction facts down great. He HATES subtraction the most.  He turns word problems into addition.  (Like, She had 5 cookies and he had 3.  How many more does she have?  He'll say, "you add 2 to 3 to get 5.  So, it's 3+2=5" I naturally do the same, but he has to realize it's subtraction.) I'm really struggling to get him to memorize the subtraction facts because he complains so much about any drilling.  I've tried flash cards, drill sheets (like the mental math sheets in Singapore), xtramath and drilling on the whiteboard.  What should take 5-10 minutes takes us 20+.  Then, we still have the regular lesson to get through.  I have 6 kids 7 and under.  We don't have time to do math for hours a day. 

 

Maybe we should stop the text for a while and just work on math facts.  He knows addition pretty well, though I wouldn't say he has it down cold.  I'd say he is very fast at mentally adding.

 

Anyone have any advice for me?  Any encouragement that it will get better?  I'm very sad that he dislikes it so much, especially because he is fine at it.  I don't get it.  Why does he hate it so much??  He hasn't always hated it.  Help!

 

Thanks!!  Sorry, that was long...I'm always long. :blush:

[sunnyday]

My son is working in 1B and also much stronger in adding than subtracting. He's been getting frustrated about it. My plan of attack is to back off of abstract mental math and use concrete manipulatives for a while, get his number bonds really solid, and also play some math games. I've got the Kitchen Table Math book that has plenty of good ideas for fun alternatives to drill.

 

Do you have the HIG for 1B? They have some different things you can do with manipulatives, pairing, etc. to get subtraction a little bit more solid.

[Jilly]

Maybe you could put Singapore aside for a bit and work on something else. He might enjoy a change, and it might give him some extra time to work on subtraction. I would look at Kitchen Table Math, Miquon, Life of Fred, or Education Unboxed for some ideas. 

[mommymonster]

I have no magic bullet for you, but I do have lots and lots of empathy. My DS is almost eight (few weeks) and is also in SM 2A. We accelerated last year in 1B. He still dislikes math and fusses about it. He is weaker on subtraction, as well. My son has problems memorizing math facts, which is making me nuts.

 

I use games as a motivation to get us through the lessons. We can play a math game if he gets through a lesson without fussing. We use Swamp Sums, Presto Change-o, Zeus on the Loose, Checkers, and Cribbage (just learning it). He does like math games.

 

We read Life of Fred before bed for fun/motivation. 

 

Also, we frequently use M&Ms and chocolate chips as manipulatives. The deep and abiding need I have for chocolate seems to be genetic...

[klmama]

My math lover turned into a math hater for awhile, too.  It took games to bring the love back.  A problem had to be solved correctly in order to roll a die to advance a game piece on the board.  I played, too.  If I made a "mistake," the dc could catch my error and advance another space.  Of course, I could catch dc's mistakes, too.  The competition worked wonders for math enthusiasm. 

[PeterPan]

It sounds like the real disconnect is that he's math bright and thinking beyond you on the concepts.  Adding to subtract is a PERFECTLY VALID way of doing it, and it's actually taught in some curricula (RightStart, for instance).  So what's really happening is that he's thinking beyond you and beyond the explanations you're getting your curricula.  I suggest you look for something that gives you more instruction on how to work with him (get the HIG for SM, switch to Beast Academy, whatever).  I also suggest you stop assuming his natural methods are *incorrect* because they in fact may not be.  There are LOTS of ways to do math, not just one, and when you try to make him think through it your way, it's just one narrow, perhaps more superficial way.  He's exploring connections and relationships, which is awesome!  In fact, you can use part whole circles and triangle flashcards for his drill.  (RR sells the triangle flashcards.)

 

What you might do is offer him MORE math as a reward and see what happens.  For this extra math, don't even butt in, just toss it at him.  Maybe his other math is Beast Academy or something on the computer.  

 

Btw, I have the same dichotomy you're dealing with, but in our house it's history.  I'm constantly wanting to tell my very history-intuitive dd NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT, YOU'LL BE RUINED! because she doesn't want to do xyz.  Reality is, she's incredibly history-intuitive and has her own way of getting there.  Unfortunately, at this stage there aren't history tm's that are as good as math, so I just have to give her more room and trust the process.  

 

Kids have such a natural amount of curiosity, if you make it your goal to keep nurturing that, you'll be fine.  Sure throw in some drill during a separate section of the day.  Make it something he can do independently, and build in some immediate, great rewards.  (5 minutes of drill, 5 skittles and brush your teeth, whatever)  But yes, for subtraction it's perfectly valid to view it as part whole circles (2 parts yielding the whole), know the relationships, and thus go directly to subtraction for written.  Another way to get there is to have him fill out an ADDITION table and let him use that for his SUBTRACTION work.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

My gifted Visual Spacial teenager who is doing well at Algebra 2 never really learned his math facts the old-fashioned way.  He knows how to figure it out quickly and now I'd say he has most of them memorized just because of using them.  But he hated drill and it never really worked for him.  Not saying that math facts are useless but math progression isn't always linear.  

[Farrar]

I would drop the drill in favor of a math game or something along those lines.  And I wouldn't do battle over his method.  I mean, as long as he conceptually understands "taking away" then I don't see a problem with turning it into an addition problem.

 

Of course, you could put bells and whistles on math and dress it up like Christmas morning and some kids still wouldn't be impressed.  And that's fine in a way, as long as they keep at it and understand that it's necessary.  I would sit him and down and say, "Hey, this is taking too long.  Here's the changes I'm willing to make (like drill with a card game instead of a straight flashcard or paper drill, doing some of it orally, doing some manipulatives lessons or whatever) and in exchange I'd like you to work your hardest for the whole time."  And set a timer.

 

Also, don't get too sure that you know just how long it "should" take him.  Kids are uneven.  What takes ten minutes can legitimately take fifteen the next day.  I think spending the time on math is better than trying to get a certain amount done.

[Mom2TheTeam]

Thanks for the input everyone.  I definitely need to do some games with him. It's been a while since I did that.  Oops!

 

As for the turning subtraction into addition, obviously, I made it sound like I don't think it's a valid way to do subtraction.  That wasn't my intent.  Clearly, it is. I often do it that way.  But, I would like him recognize that he is doing subtraction and that the word problem could be set up in a subtraction equation. I don't correct him or tell him it's wrong when he does it that way except to point out that it is a subtraction problem and could be set up as such (but that his way is fine). Also, looking back I was exaggerating when I said he turns everything into addition. He does it to word problems, not regular equations. (My frustration was coming out in the OP.  I should not have said always.) Really, my point was that he hates subtraction and he gets much more upset when he sees (or hears) that it is subtraction.  He enjoyed math until he started having to subtract two digit numbers from two digit numbers. *sigh*

 

Several people suggested the HIG.  I have it (and past ones too) and use them religiously.

 

I'm not trying to argue and I truly do appreciate the input, but I'm really not getting how giving a child who hates math and complains with every number more math as a reward would be at all rewarding. It would definitely backfire or end in tears. I asked him last night if he could tell me what he didn't like about math.  His answer...."the numbers."  (I worked to get more out of him than that, but you get the point.) Anything I give him with numbers, he will recognize as math.  He was like this with learning to read too.  I could not play reading games to help him have fun doing it.  He hated all letters all the time, no matter the format. It was a matter of powering through and telling him he had to do it.  It was a major struggle. Now that he can do it well, he loves to read.  He doesn't like it when something is hard for him. 

 

He doesn't like the computer.  So, giving him anything on the computer is asking for complaints.  That is perfectly fine with me.

 

I'm thinking we are going to put down the book for a while and play games.  I'm not sure it will make him happy for more than a week because after the novelty wears off, he might start complaining about doing the math.  But, it's worth a try for sure.  I have to try something.  I don't want him to hate math.  If I can get him to the point that he thinks subtraction is easy, I think it would be a lot better.  We hung out on this exact topic for several weeks in 1B too and it got better.  I guess it wasn't long enough since we aren't even through the review in 2B before having the same issues.  We will hang here in 2 digit addition and subtraction for as long as it takes. 

 

Thank you everyone!!  I really appreciate the input and advice. :D

[duckens]

Sorry so long.

 

So sorry that you are going through this, Mom2theTeam. :grouphug:

 

My Not So Humble Opinion (Not that you aren't doing these things anyway):

 

1) Share with your son reasons math is important.

 

1a) List different jobs: policeman, chef, musician, banker, etc, and have him come up with ways that you need math to do any of those jobs.

 

1b) Math is the language of Science.  (We are a very sciency family).  To understand science, you will need to know math really well.

 

2) Math is like a foreign language.

 

How much would you enjoy your favorite subject if it was in Japanese? (Barring, of course, that your favorite subject IS Japanese.)  Would it still be your favorite if you had to process Japanese, THEN process what was being asked of you,...oh, AND get the right answer?

 

Math is not much fun if the instruction is: "Find the sum," and you don't know what a sum is.  Oh, it's a fancy word for the answer in adding???  THAT I can do!!!! 

 

Math has its own vocabulary, and if you don't know the vocabulary: area, circumference, hypotenuse, mixed numerals, improper fractions, multiples, factors, or reciprocals....it's gonna be a loooooong year.  When I teach math, I teach vocabulary.

 

 

 

3)

 

He doesn't have his subtraction facts down great. He HATES subtraction the most.

 

If EVERY problem was a struggle because you don't know the subtraction facts, it would be overwhelming.

 

This is another version of Math as a language.  We want your son to be fluent in his subtraction facts.

 

What we did:

 

I registered my daughter at Xtramath.org.  It's FREE.

 

Xtra math is a simple, free program to teach kids math facts. It is not fancy or game-like, but it is effective. I set a timer for my daughter to do it for 20 minutes every day.

 

Advantages:

1) I don't have to listen to dd6 moan and groan over every addition flash card.

 

2) FREE.

 

3) Dd6 can do it independently.  I can prep lunch or nurse the toddler.

 

4) Dd6 can do it independently.  Formerly, our flashcard time would be interrupted by the toddler.

 

5) It works.

 

Disadvantages:

1) It's not fancy.  It is not a game.  There is no animation. Blah blah blah.  (I don't really care!  This is school!  You're not here to be entertained!!!)

 

Other things to know:

1) "Proficiency" is attained when a child can answer the problem in 3s or less. That is the default setting.

 

2) There is a setting for 6s.  I have dd6 doing 6s Addition because she is still learning her addition. When she reaches a score of 100, I will give her the choice of doing 6s Subtraction or 3s Addition.

 

3) Many families go out for ice cream when your child reaches a score of 100.

 

4) There is a separate parent tab where parents can see the progress the child is making. This is where you change settings to 6s if you want.

 

5) Your child will take an initial test.  (dd6 scored 44).  DO NOT BE ALARMED if your child's score decreases from this beginning mark.  This is simply a reflection that harder problems are being introduced.  For example: 6+7 is harder than 2+2.

 

6) Discuss with your child strategies for different types of problems.  We had a discussion on the pattern of solving the addition 9s.

 

7) You may consider shelving Singapore for two weeks until he gets going on the subtraction facts.

 

Dd6 doesn't jump up and down for joy when it is Xtra Math time, but she is making progress.  Her current score is 85, and she sees the addition grid turning green (for problems she has mastered). 

 

The other big winner in this journey is that she sees there is no shortcut for PRACTICING.  This lesson is even more important the knowing what 7+8 is, and she knows this addition mastery has helped her in her regular Math problems.

[FriedClams]

This has nothing to do with the math part - but I would nip the whining and complaining in the bud. Don't let that become a habit regardless of the subject (particularly with younger students coming up). Yes, some subjects are hard. That does not give us reason to whine, complain, drag our feet, etc. Struggle, sure. Ask for help, yes.

 

I'm big on not letting a student's distaste for a subject control the tone of my homeschool environment.

[Mom2TheTeam]

Sorry so long.

 

So sorry that you are going through this, Mom2theTeam. :grouphug:

 

My Not So Humble Opinion (Not that you aren't doing these things anyway):

 

1) Share with your son reasons math is important.

 

1a) List different jobs: policeman, chef, musician, banker, etc, and have him come up with ways that you need math to do any of those jobs.

 

1b) Math is the language of Science.  (We are a very sciency family).  To understand science, you will need to know math really well.

 

2) Math is like a foreign language.

 

How much would you enjoy your favorite subject if it was in Japanese? (Barring, of course, that your favorite subject IS Japanese.)  Would it still be your favorite if you had to process Japanese, THEN process what was being asked of you,...oh, AND get the right answer?

 

Math is not much fun if the instruction is: "Find the sum," and you don't know what a sum is.  Oh, it's a fancy word for the answer in adding???  THAT I can do!!!! 

 

Math has its own vocabulary, and if you don't know the vocabulary: area, circumference, hypotenuse, mixed numerals, improper fractions, multiples, factors, or reciprocals....it's gonna be a loooooong year.  When I teach math, I teach vocabulary.

 

 

 

3)

 

If EVERY problem was a struggle because you don't know the subtraction facts, it would be overwhelming.

 

This is another version of Math as a language.  We want your son to be fluent in his subtraction facts.

 

What we did:

 

I registered my daughter at Xtramath.org.  It's FREE.

 

Xtra math is a simple, free program to teach kids math facts. It is not fancy or game-like, but it is effective. I set a timer for my daughter to do it for 20 minutes every day.

 

Advantages:

1) I don't have to listen to dd6 moan and groan over every addition flash card.

 

2) FREE.

 

3) Dd6 can do it independently.  I can prep lunch or nurse the toddler.

 

4) Dd6 can do it independently.  Formerly, our flashcard time would be interrupted by the toddler.

 

5) It works.

 

Disadvantages:

1) It's not fancy.  It is not a game.  There is no animation. Blah blah blah.  (I don't really care!  This is school!  You're not here to be entertained!!!)

 

Other things to know:

1) "Proficiency" is attained when a child can answer the problem in 3s or less. That is the default setting.

 

2) There is a setting for 6s.  I have dd6 doing 6s Addition because she is still learning her addition. When she reaches a score of 100, I will give her the choice of doing 6s Subtraction or 3s Addition.

 

3) Many families go out for ice cream when your child reaches a score of 100.

 

4) There is a separate parent tab where parents can see the progress the child is making. This is where you change settings to 6s if you want.

 

5) Your child will take an initial test.  (dd6 scored 44).  DO NOT BE ALARMED if your child's score decreases from this beginning mark.  This is simply a reflection that harder problems are being introduced.  For example: 6+7 is harder than 2+2.

 

6) Discuss with your child strategies for different types of problems.  We had a discussion on the pattern of solving the addition 9s.

 

7) You may consider shelving Singapore for two weeks until he gets going on the subtraction facts.

 

Dd6 doesn't jump up and down for joy when it is Xtra Math time, but she is making progress.  Her current score is 85, and she sees the addition grid turning green (for problems she has mastered). 

 

The other big winner in this journey is that she sees there is no shortcut for PRACTICING.  This lesson is even more important the knowing what 7+8 is, and she knows this addition mastery has helped her in her regular Math problems.

 

Thank you!  He does Xtramath.  He is slow at typing.  So, it's frustrating for him.  We are working on it.  Usually, I type for him.  But, he gets flustered easily when he gets one wrong.  So, it isn't working great and he complains.  I actually have the same problem.  I have myself doing Xtramath to in order to solidify my own math fact and also to model that math facts are important. ;)  If I get one wrong, even just because of a typo, I get flustered and struggle from that point on.  He does the same.  I just changed him to the 6s for now because he is getting frustrated with 3.  I know he knows some of the answers but trying to "race the teacher" is too much pressure for him and throws him off.

 

I also do sit with him and explain all the vocab of math to him.  So, he knows it or I tell him. 

 

However, I appreciate the encouragement to work on those facts.  My gut is telling me that is the huge problem.  I feel like if he had those down cold it would be SO much easier for him and his attitude would be much better.  So, that you for that. 

 

This has nothing to do with the math part - but I would nip the whining and complaining in the bud. Don't let that become a habit regardless of the subject (particularly with younger students coming up). Yes, some subjects are hard. That does not give us reason to whine, complain, drag our feet, etc. Struggle, sure. Ask for help, yes.

 

I'm big on not letting a student's distaste for a subject control the tone of my homeschool environment.

 

I agree completely.  I definitely don't allow it.  But, I'm not really sure how to make him stop except by sending him to his room, which gets him out of doing his work...for the moment.  He still has to do it when he gets back, but the attitude usually comes too unless I keep him up there there for quite a while.  I have 6 kids 7 and under.  I can't always get the focused time back needed to do math an hour after I was available to do it the first time. 

 

Do you have any suggestions for putting the above into practice.  I do completely agree and would LOVE to curb it.  But, I'm struggling to do that.  Thanks!!

[Tiramisu]

We dropped Singapore in 2A due to frustration. She was great with concepts, faster than me, but she really needed to get the facts down or the frustration would have been too much. We did CLE which really addressed the fact issue and stuck with it because she was much less frustrated with it. She's in algebra now and still insists on knowing the whys, so the tendency toward conceptual thinking has remained through years of CLE. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

If he knows how to do subtraction, I don't know what the problem is with him liking to do addition over subtraction.  Subtraction is harder.  Addition is easier.  It just is.  Good that he recognizes how to change one into the other to make it easier.  Once he gets to Algebra, the ability to change things into equations that are easier will stand him in good stead.  

[Mom2TheTeam]

We dropped Singapore in 2A due to frustration. She was great with concepts, faster than me, but she really needed to get the facts down or the frustration would have been too much. We did CLE which really addressed the fact issue and stuck with it because she was much less frustrated with it. She's in algebra now and still insists on knowing the whys, so the tendency toward conceptual thinking has remained through years of CLE. 

 

Interesting!  I wonder if I should look into something that is more fact based....I haven't looked much at CLE.  Maybe I should.  Thank you!

[Mom2TheTeam]

If he knows how to do subtraction, I don't know what the problem is with him liking to do addition over subtraction.  Subtraction is harder.  Addition is easier.  It just is.  Good that he recognizes how to change one into the other to make it easier.  Once he gets to Algebra, the ability to change things into equations that are easier will stand him in good stead.  

 

It's not a problem.  I do the same sometimes.  My point was he hates subtraction the most and his attitude gets much worse when he sees or hears subtraction (or any other way to describe the process). Changing it to addition does not make his attitude any better. The problem is he hates math.  I think subtraction is the worst and coloring his whole attitude toward math. 

 

Apparently, I should have just said he hates subtraction the most and not elaborated because I don't have a problem with him changing it to addition and I don't tell him it's wrong, but it keeps being brought up as if I think this is problem.  I was just venting and being too verbose. Sorry about that. 

[Tiramisu]

Interesting!  I wonder if I should look into something that is more fact based....I haven't looked much at CLE.  Maybe I should.  Thank you!

 

CLE is very incremental. It doesn't make huge leaps. It also reinforces the facts EVERYDAY in MULTIPLE ways, in speed drills in the back of each light unit, directed flash card use, and in the lessons. CLE can be rather independent after a certain age, which is nice when you have multiple children. It's also VERY thorough.

 

It would have been nice to have kept up Singapore but we just couldn't do it all. Maybe you can...

[Jean in Newcastle]

My dd hates math.  She's allowed to hate it.  She's just not allowed to complain about it.  

[In The Great White North]

Could I recommend this course:

 

https://class.stanford.edu/courses/Education/EDUC115N/How_to_Learn_Math/courseware/9da2cc3b8dc24b648b210ed445c35d3e/1b3ac347ca064b3eaaddbc27d4200964/

 

Actually, just sections 4-6.

[duckens]

 

Mom2theTeam say:

Thank you!  He does Xtramath.  He is slow at typing.  So, it's frustrating for him.  We are working on it.  Usually, I type for him.  But, he gets flustered easily when he gets one wrong.  So, it isn't working great and he complains.  I actually have the same problem.  I have myself doing Xtramath to in order to solidify my own math fact and also to model that math facts are important. ;)  If I get one wrong, even just because of a typo, I get flustered and struggle from that point on.  He does the same.  I just changed him to the 6s for now because he is getting frustrated with 3.  I know he knows some of the answers but trying to "race the teacher" is too much pressure for him and throws him off.

 

 

This is a little off track, but does it help at all?  I've had this discussion with my dd6:

 

 

Paraphrasing:

"The problem with learning anything is that during the first few hours, you s*ck at it, and you know you s*ck at it; and that's not fun."

 

I even made a chart for dd6 to represent 20 hours.  For a while, she would color in one square for every 10 minutes she did Xtra Math (2/day).  If she was told to log out (by the program), she was expected to log right back in and continue until the timer went off.  We spoke of 20 hours, and I asked her to trust me that 20 hours would make a difference.  I asked for a 20 hour commitment.

 

-----------------------------------------

Have you considered letting him do the typing?  I know he is not a good typer, but by the time he

--calculates the answer

--tells you the answer

--you hear the answer

--and you type the answer

This may delay his chance to get the problem in a timely manner.

[Miss Tick]

My dd turned 8 in the spring and we were in the same place.  She didn't care for subtraction, set up all the word problems as addition, etc. 

 

How about buying MM Add/Subtract 2 for a few dollars and work through that while you do math games?  My dd loves that I go through and x out half the problems, sometimes more.  It started out easy and quick for her and then, of course, slowly got into the areas she was struggling with.  After finishing that book, her comfort with subtraction is much better and she is smoother with her math facts (although I generally don't drill those).  She still prefers addition, but is comfortable with the idea that she is doing subtraction.

 

 

Anyway, that way you take a break, focus on the sticky spot with a couple approaches that are set up for success, and then you can ease back into Singapore which works well, generally speaking, for your son. 

[Spy Car]

Interesting! I wonder if I should look into something that is more fact based....I haven't looked much at CLE. Maybe I should. Thank you!

That's the last thing I'd do. You'd just me reenforcing your (wrong IMO) impression that math is about "facts" and potentially be killing the potential of a kid who seems to see things more clearly than you. Sorry this sounds more "hash" than I'd prefer.

 

The Singapore Method wants (and encourages) kids to be able to see the inter-relatedness of addition and subtract. That is why they spend all that time doing "number-bonds." You are fretting without cause.

 

Instead of moving down in the math world, why not add something that will peak interest? Maybe something like Primary Grade Challenge Math by Zaccaro, that adds "challenging" topics that are taught in engaging and fun ways?

 

Bill

[Nart]

My son started disliking math while completing SM 1B. He didn't have his math facts down, despite playing games , practicing the problems from the back of the HIG, etc.  Some people just have a harder time memorizing math facts. It frustrated me because I was always the fastest in elementary school when we drilled math facts. I was the first in my second grade class to do 100 addition and subtraction problems in five minutes. My husband, on the other hand, was always one of the slowest. He still takes a while to manipulate the answer to get some addition and subtraction problems. My son is not a kid who is going to have his math facts down by continuing on in math. Conceptually he can solve addition and subtraction problems but it is a lot of work for him to hold the numbers in his working memory. If he is working on a word problem, he can figure it out how to solve it and can write the math equation but will complain that he can't do it because it is too much effort to figure out the addition and subtraction facts.

 

After finishing SM1B, I stopped and got the workbook "2 + 2 is not 5" from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_7?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=2+plus+2+is+not+5&sprefix=2+plus+%2Caps%2C344.  It is $21.49 and has 232 practice pages. It different methods of memorizing math facts and teaches addition and subtraction facts together.  Before going on to 2A I give him 2 to 3 pages a day, 7 days a week to complete. He can do it independently. Some days I also have him run through some flash cards. Besides that I have him do real life math throughout the day, but nothing formal. For example, count these coins and tell me how many I have, how much more do I need to make a dollar; if it is 11:05 and we are having lunch at 12:00, how many minutes until lunch. As his math facts have improved, he now says he likes math and is good at math because he sees the progress he is making. By memorizing math facts, it really does free up working memory  so it becomes much easier to solve harder problems. 

[EKS]

About the subtraction facts, it's perfectly ok for him to think of them in terms of addition.  If this is working for him, have him reword the problems on the flash cards (or whatever you're using for fact practice) to be addition problems.  So 15-7 becomes "What plus 7 is 15?"

 

As for the rest of hating math, try to pinpoint what he hates.  It might not be math at all.  For example, does he get cranky when you bring out the workbook?  Maybe it's writing with a pencil.  If so, try having him work the problems on a small whiteboard.  Or it might be certain aspects of math, like tedious computation.  If you can pinpoint the problem, it will help you figure out a solution which may or may not involve a curriculum switch (and if Singapore meshes with how he thinks, I'd keep it).

[sunnyday]

That's the last thing I'd do. You'd just me reenforcing your (wrong IMO) impression that math is about "facts" and potentially be killing the potential of a kid who seems to see things more clearly than you. 

 

This. You said he didn't dislike math before hitting these subtraction hangups; you also have mentioned a lot of drilling. Speaking from the experience of having a son who REVELS in his successes (and crows as he explains how cleverly he manipulated numbers) but frets about his mistakes, I feel like this might be exactly the wrong approach.

 

When I started 1B, I was skeptical about whether the HIG was useful. I mean, it's just basic math, I can handle basic math. But a friend pointed out that the Singapore method of concrete-pictorial-abstract is *fundamental* to the method. You can't just skip the concrete manipulatives because your child has natural skill or because you want him to memorize the facts in isolation. It won't work. So I got the HIG and I am so far glad I did.

 

For example I thought it was silly when the HIG told us to pair up physical objects in order to determine operations like "5-3". I mean, DUH. My son, too, looked at me like I was nuts when I rummaged through the playroom for Hot Wheels and Lego guys to practice with. But we did a couple of examples and he realized this was a different way to see a problem. Then we did it pictorially by drawing circles around pairs. Then when we had an IXL problem about "which group has more," I could tell him, "PAIR THEM UP in your head!" And the subtraction problem crystallized.

 

So with my son who is getting upset because his multi-digit subtraction isn't going as well as his masterful and elegant (or so he feels) multi-digit addition, I am backing off to the concrete step. I showed him an online abacus and he started to grin again, working through the problems easily! His physical abacus is arriving today. I'm going to make sure to also extend the concepts from beads to C-rods and Legos, and work in "counting down" techniques while also playing games to flesh out the fact families, but the important bit right now is that he is smiling and finding it easier and being happy with his successes.

 

I'd build attitude before I fretted too much about the actual facts, personally.

[Bree]

My ds is the same way. Have you had his eyes checked? My ds reads a lot so I never thought to have his checked until this year when he started doing longer math problems and really started to struggle. Turned out our problem was he needed glasses for reading and it has helped. 

[Mom2TheTeam]

Okay, so my plan of attack to hang out on addition and subtraction for a while.  We will put the books away and play games and try to have some fun.  I don't really want to change programs.  We like Singapore.  I don't want to move forward with his attitude like this.  It's too hard to teach him.  I think once he is able to do subtraction (and addition) very easily, he'll be a happy math student again.  He didn't dislike it until the subtraction got harder. I thought we had moved passed it when we hung out here for a while in 1B, but apparently not.  I'm hoping to fix that. 

 

Just to reiterate, I don't care how he does his subtraction.  I was just trying to say he hates subtraction so much, he does it as addition. The only issue is that sometimes he won't recognize that he is actually doing subtraction, but using addition.  I feel he does need to realize he is doing subtraction. Obviously, that came out wrong.

 

Also, I said I tried many different types of drills...to clarify, each of those was a few days at most.  We have not done a lot of drilling, which is probably one of the reasons he does not know his facts. ;)  But, I've wanted him to learn the facts in order to help him with addition and subtraction.  He complains with every method I've tried.  We have not done consistent drilling because of that.  Most methods didn't last more than a day or two.  Xtra math, he has done 13 times since he signed up in Jan.  (I just looked.)  I had the most success while hanging out on 2-digit subtraction in 1b using a whiteboard.  I would put several problems on the whiteboard (mostly from the mental math pages) at night and he would wake up and do them.  I did that for him this morning and he had a good attitude about doing it.  So, I'll go back to trying that for a while in addition to the games.   Anyway, bottom line, he hasn't done a lot of drilling even if I mistakenly made it sound like he has. 

 

Thank you everyone for your input and advice.  Hopefully, I can get more fun into his math work for him.

 

 

My ds is the same way. Have you had his eyes checked? My ds reads a lot so I never thought to have his checked until this year when he started doing longer math problems and really started to struggle. Turned out our problem was he needed glasses for reading and it has helped. 

 

He has an appt next Friday.  I just made it today while I was there for me.  Good suggestion!

 

 

[letsplaymath]

... Why does he hate it so much??  He hasn't always hated it.  Help!

...  He enjoyed math until he started having to subtract two digit numbers from two digit numbers.

... I asked him last night if he could tell me what he didn't like about math.  His answer...."the numbers." 

...  If I can get him to the point that he thinks subtraction is easy, I think it would be a lot better. 

... My point was he hates subtraction the most and his attitude gets much worse when he sees or hears subtraction ...

 

I would like to suggest an answer to the big question in your first post: "Why does he hate it so much??" I think he tried his best to explain it to you (see the red section above), but he didn't know the right words to describe the problem.

 

You see, up until level 2A, the Singapore math program is fairly intuitive to a student who thinks as your son does. His mind has a naturally mathematical approach, seeing and taking advantage of connections between math topics in order to solve problems. For example, he resents being told to look at a word problem as "subtraction" because to him, it is clearly a "missing addend" addition problem---and he is exactly right! There is no inherent difference between subtraction and addition (although most students don't learn this until they get to prealgebra). The underlying mathematical structure is identical.

 

But in Singapore math level 2A, the focus changes from this intuitive approach to mathematics, which clicked so well with the way your son thinks, to an algorithmic approach---that is, to teaching the standard pencil-and-paper procedures for addition and subtraction, with renaming (what we used to call "carrying" and "borrowing"). The focus changes from intuitive understanding (which your son was good at) to an emphasis on memorizing abstract (disconnected from real-world objects or physical manipulatives) math facts and following the abstract rules for working with abstract numbers.

 

In my opinion, this change in emphasis is developmentally inappropriate for many second-graders who are not quite ready to think abstractly, with numbers alone. Of course, our children do need to learn how to do multi-digit addition and subtraction, but there is no reason that they need to do it in the first part of second grade. Your son's reaction is a good sign that he is not developmentally ready to make that leap.

 

To your son---or at least, to my son who hit the same mental road block in the subtraction section of level 2A---when you bring up the term "subtraction," this feels exactly like you are telling him, "Put your brain on the shelf and do the math MY way, following my rules, because I said so."

 

If my explanation is true, what can you do?

 

As you mentioned in your last post, a good temporary solution is to set aside the book and play some math games. I have several on my blog that you might want to try. But if this is a developmental thing, as I suspect, you may need to wait several months before you attempt to re-introduce the subtraction algorithm. (A long wait like that is what worked wonders for my son.) And of course, you don't want to just neglect math all that time.

 

So I suggest you take a wandering exploration through all sorts of non-number mathematics---there really is a lot of mathematics out there your son can learn without having to memorize and follow abstract rules. For instance, get the Moebius Noodles book and explore symmetry and fractals and functions. These activities are accessible to younger students, too, so the whole family can play and learn math together.

 

Or just skip ahead to the measurement chapters of your Singapore 2A book (after a short break to let his emotional reaction calm down), and then try multiplication and division. Even fractions (in level 2B) were ever so much much easier and more intuitive for my son at this age than subtraction.

[Year Round Mom]

DS hit a wall when we started adding double-digits in RS B in 2nd grade. Although he knew the why and how behind adding, he didn't have the facts down, which was dragging the process down. Because he's done RS from the start, I knew he knew why 5+9=14, it was just that he had to think through the whole 5+9=14 problem before he could use that fact in the more complicated process of double-digit adding. He started having meltdowns (he's aspie, too), which was unusual because he had sailed through math before that. I stopped all RS and we just did homemade flashcards of the addition facts for a week or two. I didn't do the games because by default, I'm a boring black and white type person. :sleep: I let him play the iPad during school hours (yippee!) but only addition facts apps (insert evil mommy laugh here).

 

ETA: DS did complain about the flashcards, but for me it was clear as day that he needed to learn the facts, so I pushed through. After awhile he became apathetic (not melting down, but not swooning in excitement, either) to the process and that was enough to get us through memorizing them, lol. 

 

After he had the facts down cold, we started double-digit adding again and he got it this time. I added back in the RS drill sheets they provide but don't schedule in B. He just recently stopped doing a daily drill sheet (addition, subtraction, multiplication), only because it's now scheduled into RS C. We didn't have to stop for subtraction facts, because like everyone's saying, once he got the addition facts, he got the subtraction ones! 

[Year Round Mom]

FYI I only did the flashcards once through daily. Because I knew he knew them, we were working on speed, not how-to. He didn't make many mistakes, but when he did, I just said, "Nope, try again," he got it, and we moved on to the next one. Math didn't take more than 5-10 minutes.

[Spy Car]

Okay, so my plan of attack to hang out on addition and subtraction for a while.  We will put the books away and play games and try to have some fun.  I don't really want to change programs.  We like Singapore.  I don't want to move forward with his attitude like this.  It's too hard to teach him.  I think once he is able to do subtraction (and addition) very easily, he'll be a happy math student again.  He didn't dislike it until the subtraction got harder. I thought we had moved passed it when we hung out here for a while in 1B, but apparently not.  I'm hoping to fix that. 

 

Just to reiterate, I don't care how he does his subtraction.  I was just trying to say he hates subtraction so much, he does it as addition. The only issue is that sometimes he won't recognize that he is actually doing subtraction, but using addition.  I feel he does need to realize he is doing subtraction. Obviously, that came out wrong.

 

Also, I said I tried many different types of drills...to clarify, each of those was a few days at most.  We have not done a lot of drilling, which is probably one of the reasons he does not know his facts. ;)  But, I've wanted him to learn the facts in order to help him with addition and subtraction.  He complains with every method I've tried.  We have not done consistent drilling because of that.  Most methods didn't last more than a day or two.  Xtra math, he has done 13 times since he signed up in Jan.  (I just looked.)  I had the most success while hanging out on 2-digit subtraction in 1b using a whiteboard.  I would put several problems on the whiteboard (mostly from the mental math pages) at night and he would wake up and do them.  I did that for him this morning and he had a good attitude about doing it.  So, I'll go back to trying that for a while in addition to the games.   Anyway, bottom line, he hasn't done a lot of drilling even if I mistakenly made it sound like he has. 

 

Thank you everyone for your input and advice.  Hopefully, I can get more fun into his math work for him.

You are familiar with the card game "War"?

 

Then try the variants "Addition War" and "Subtraction War." In these versions each player flips two cards and either finds the "sum" (Addition War) or the "difference" (Subtraction War). High deal takes the cards.

 

Bill

[klmama]

When my ds was your ds's age, he hated multi-digit subtraction until he discovered it was useful IRL.  One Saturday morning I woke to find him sitting at the kitchen table with his collection of old coins, subtracting the year on each coin from the current year to find out their ages.  He was delighted!  Doing 20-30 problems back to back like that improved his speed, too. 

 

 

[Nancy Ann]

That's the last thing I'd do. You'd just me reenforcing your (wrong IMO) impression that math is about "facts" and potentially be killing the potential of a kid who seems to see things more clearly than you. Sorry this sounds more "hash" than I'd prefer.

 

The Singapore Method wants (and encourages) kids to be able to see the inter-relatedness of addition and subtract. That is why they spend all that time doing "number-bonds." You are fretting without cause.

 

Instead of moving down in the math world, why not add something that will peak interest? Maybe something like Primary Grade Challenge Math by Zaccaro, that adds "challenging" topics that are taught in engaging and fun ways?

 

Bill

 

Completely and enthusiastically agree with Bill on this. 

 

I wonder if he is just not ready to move onto the double digit. My son complained as well when we did subtraction. We used Right Start math and he loved math until we hit subtraction and it was a big wall. He could do it but it was harder and he didn't love math as much. We slowied down and didn't push and took a break.

 

I would continue with your math program. Singapore is a great math program, this is just a a bump in the road and it happens with ALL math curricula, it doesn't always mean you need to change. I would just stop for awhile and just have him keep his addition and subtraction math facts fresh by doing flash cards 3 times a week and do something else for math. Games or a fun workbook of puzzles or there is a book called Family Math that has easy games you can play with your child. It's cheap off Ebay or maybe your library has it. Amazon sells it. Peggy's Math Games is another book. These books can sometimes be overwhelming because they give so many ideas and all of them seem important or fun. I recommend just picking two games and work on those for awhile before doing something new. With Family Math there are all sorts of different concepts you can work on and not even deal with subtraction for awhile. 

 

Family Math may be a good investment for you because it works so well for times like this, when you just need to shelve something for awhile to take a break but you don't want to NOT do any math at all!!

[Tiramisu]

Let me preface my comments but saying, I think Singapore-style math programs are great. :)

 

I actually don't think, however, that Singapore math by itself leads to success in an individual student, along the lines of the math success of Singaporeans compared with the rest of the world. My undergraduate and graduate years were spent with Asians from different countries, and I lived in Japan for ten years. I am rather familiar with the general culture of education in Asia and, in my opinion, that is what accounts for their success. They do not only depend solely on the math teacher at their school, but attend special classes outside of school and enlist the help tutors, often on a continual basis, definitely not just as needed. Most of all, they put many more hours into math than our children do, and spend an enormous amount of time on drill and getting their facts down, not by using "Singapore Math" but by using drill. In my opinion, the combination is why they are successful.

 

I have one dd in ps, who is now using Math In Focus (Singapore-style math). According to her teacher, the students who are having difficulty with that program are the ones who still don't know their facts, so she's had to implement speed drills of basic facts in sixth grade to address this problem. My daughter who was hs'ed in earlier grades and did her share of drill and kill is now doing very well with the Singapore-style. There was a period of transition when our ps system moved into Singapore, but apparently the students who made the adjustment well were the ones who knew their facts.

 

Three of my children have already been through the "learning the facts" stage. I've had one who only needed to be introduced to a "fact" once and never forgot it and very rarely made a mistake in math through the elementary years. She used a conceptual program in ps. Despite that, wasn't overly successful in higher math. I had another who would forget her facts over every weekend for years and needed something like CLE. She's in algebra now, and up to this point has never got more than one wrong in either the computation or conceptual section of standardized tests.  

 

There is not one program that on its own will guarantee math success. Each child has their innate strengths and weaknesses when it comes to memorization and abstract thinking, and it's important to find a way to address individual needs that works for the family. If a parent makes decisions to try to do this, they should not be made to feel they are giving their child less.

[fairfarmhand]

I'd let him play math games online like www.fun4thebrain.com

 

And who cares if his mind works differently WRT to subtractions? With facts, as long as he's getting the right answer and can do it quickly, it's fine.

[Mandylubug]

My gifted Visual Spacial teenager who is doing well at Algebra 2 never really learned his math facts the old-fashioned way. He knows how to figure it out quickly and now I'd say he has most of them memorized just because of using them. But he hated drill and it never really worked for him. Not saying that math facts are useless but math progression isn't always linear.

Took me 2 years to learn this lesson!

[Mom2TheTeam]

Thank you for all the input! 

 

Let me preface my comments but saying, I think Singapore-style math programs are great. :)

 

I actually don't think, however, that Singapore math by itself leads to success in an individual student, along the lines of the math success of Singaporeans compared with the rest of the world. My undergraduate and graduate years were spent with Asians from different countries, and I lived in Japan for ten years. I am rather familiar with the general culture of education in Asia and, in my opinion, that is what accounts for their success. They do not only depend solely on the math teacher at their school, but attend special classes outside of school and enlist the help tutors, often on a continual basis, definitely not just as needed. Most of all, they put many more hours into math than our children do, and spend an enormous amount of time on drill and getting their facts down, not by using "Singapore Math" but by using drill. In my opinion, the combination is why they are successful.

 

I have one dd in ps, who is now using Math In Focus (Singapore-style math). According to her teacher, the students who are having difficulty with that program are the ones who still don't know their facts, so she's had to implement speed drills of basic facts in sixth grade to address this problem. My daughter who was hs'ed in earlier grades and did her share of drill and kill is now doing very well with the Singapore-style. There was a period of transition when our ps system moved into Singapore, but apparently the students who made the adjustment well were the ones who knew their facts.

 

Three of my children have already been through the "learning the facts" stage. I've had one who only needed to be introduced to a "fact" once and never forgot it and very rarely made a mistake in math through the elementary years. She used a conceptual program in ps. Despite that, wasn't overly successful in higher math. I had another who would forget her facts over every weekend for years and needed something like CLE. She's in algebra now, and up to this point has never got more than one wrong in either the computation or conceptual section of standardized tests.  

 

There is not one program that on its own will guarantee math success. Each child has their innate strengths and weaknesses when it comes to memorization and abstract thinking, and it's important to find a way to address individual needs that works for the family. If a parent makes decisions to try to do this, they should not be made to feel they are giving their child less.

 

I'm not really trying to keep this thread alive at this point ;), but, I wanted to say thank you for this.  I really appreciated reading your thoughts on this and completely agree. The bolded is exactly what I'm aiming for.  I feel like I've realized that my child will be significantly more successful with math if he learns his math facts.  *I* would have been more successful (and would be IRL situations too) if I knew mine better...hence me doing xtramath too.  LOL!  The problem is he hates drilling.  So, thus far, I have not pushed it, thinking he would pick them up naturally because he seems to be intuitive about math.  Alas, that hasn't happened. He can calculate it, but he doesn't like to and he gets annoyed. I need to have him focus on learning the facts.  Then, he can move forward less frustrated.

 

So, we have put away the book in favor of learning the math facts.  Because he hates to drill, I'm finding games he will enjoy that will "drill" him in a fun way.  Yesterday, I asked him to play cards with me, "want to play cards with me?  It will be fun."  Him, "is it for school?"  Me, "well...sort of."  Him, "not really then.  It will be math."  :lol:  I got him to play anyway.  Halfway through as he was having fun and smiling I said, "This is awful, isn't it? ;) "  He admitted it was fun.  I was having him do addition, which he is very good at.  I think we'll go for addition again today to keep his good attitude up.  We'll see what happens in a few days when I want to change to subtraction......
 

[PeterPan]

Yes, Tiramisu's post is great!  The Eides in their book Dyslexic Advantage talk about the idea of automaticity, and that you can understand something conceptually (something many kids with labels are good at) but not yet have automaticity.  Now I'll just say though that my dd didn't develop automaticity in her written math just by doing card games.  We played tons of RS math games, but it didn't seem to carry over to her written math at all.  So that's a little catch to watch, to see if what you're doing is actually carrying over.  We did Flashmaster and Abeka's drill books, but that was all pre-ipad, hehe.  Nowadays I'd use apps for that. Drill gets such a dirty name, but when you think of it in terms of *automaticity* and giving the brain enough exposures that it can make the pathways and get there faster, that's different.  It explains why some kids are going to need a lot more exposures than others to make those pathways and get them faster.  

 

Btw, what sealed the deal on dd's fact speed finally was TT.  I guess that's sort of like Misu's use of CLE.  And like Misu, I strongly recommend doing standardized testing so you can know what's going on.  2nd or 3rd grade is a great place to start.  Since he's 2nd, doing it toward the end of this school year would be fabulous.  You'll get that breakdown on conceptual vs. computation and see if you have a gap or if he's on-track and where you expect him to be.

[lorisuewho]

Let me preface my comments but saying, I think Singapore-style math programs are great. :)

 

 

There is not one program that on its own will guarantee math success. Each child has their innate strengths and weaknesses when it comes to memorization and abstract thinking, and it's important to find a way to address individual needs that works for the family. If a parent makes decisions to try to do this, they should not be made to feel they are giving their child less.

:iagree:  Well said..

[Mom2TheTeam]

Yes, Tiramisu's post is great!  The Eides in their book Dyslexic Advantage talk about the idea of automaticity, and that you can understand something conceptually (something many kids with labels are good at) but not yet have automaticity.  Now I'll just say though that my dd didn't develop automaticity in her written math just by doing card games.  We played tons of RS math games, but it didn't seem to carry over to her written math at all.  So that's a little catch to watch, to see if what you're doing is actually carrying over.  We did Flashmaster and Abeka's drill books, but that was all pre-ipad, hehe.  Nowadays I'd use apps for that. Drill gets such a dirty name, but when you think of it in terms of *automaticity* and giving the brain enough exposures that it can make the pathways and get there faster, that's different.  It explains why some kids are going to need a lot more exposures than others to make those pathways and get them faster.  

 

Btw, what sealed the deal on dd's fact speed finally was TT.  I guess that's sort of like Misu's use of CLE.  And like Misu, I strongly recommend doing standardized testing so you can know what's going on.  2nd or 3rd grade is a great place to start.  Since he's 2nd, doing it toward the end of this school year would be fabulous.  You'll get that breakdown on conceptual vs. computation and see if you have a gap or if he's on-track and where you expect him to be.

 

 

I'm getting this feeling it might not carry over.  I've noticed that he is super fast at his facts when we aren't doing our math curriculum.  We have been playing card games and he is having no trouble quickly coming up with the answers.  I threw some subtraction in today and he didn't even bat an eye when I said it. He didn't know the answer quite as fast, but he didn't complain, just figured it out.  I wonder if it a pressure thing.  There is less pressure when we are playing cards than when he is doing his work.  I'm going to keep up the games for this week.  I want him to experience some fun in math.  What I might do next week is go ahead and add back some simple drills, xtramath or drills on the whiteboard or something.  If we do both at the same time, maybe it will cement those facts better.  We'll see.  I appreciate you bringing that up.  Thanks!  :D

 

ETA - He did ask me today if we would be doing games and playing cards in math a lot.  I told him yes.  He response was, "okay, good.  Then, math is one of my favorite subjects now."  Clearly, I've managed to suck all the fun from math.  Like another poster above, I'm not into the bells and whistles.  I just like to get it done.  We've done games some in the past, but it isn't my thing.  But on the other hand, I don't want him to hate it.  So, I'm branching out and trying bring the fun back for him.  The other kids sat around and partnered with us today.  So, we were all playing cards together.  It reminded me that I used to LOVE to play cards and used to play all.the.time.  So, it wasn't too bad for me.  I could stand to have a little more fun too. :lol:

[Twilight Woods]

My 2nd grader is hating math these days as well... We use Math Mammoth. I do not drill facts. We use number bonds and base 10 blocks when needed. I also let her figure the problems out her way.... if she get's the HOW by doing it differently then I am ok with it. She almost always turns a subtraction problem into a addition problem,. We also play lots of games ....... Right now we are working on regrouping with more than 1 ten.... it's slow going b/c she is hung up on the number being something other than a 1 when carrying...... She knows it's 2 tens but still wants to put a 1 instead of a 2 or other number........ 

 

 

[PeterPan]

I'm getting this feeling it might not carry over.  I've noticed that he is super fast at his facts when we aren't doing our math curriculum.  We have been playing card games and he is having no trouble quickly coming up with the answers.  I threw some subtraction in today and he didn't even bat an eye when I said it. He didn't know the answer quite as fast, but he didn't complain, just figured it out.  I wonder if it a pressure thing.  There is less pressure when we are playing cards than when he is doing his work.  I'm going to keep up the games for this week.  I want him to experience some fun in math.  What I might do next week is go ahead and add back some simple drills, xtramath or drills on the whiteboard or something.  If we do both at the same time, maybe it will cement those facts better.  We'll see.  I appreciate you bringing that up.  Thanks!  :D

 

ETA - He did ask me today if we would be doing games and playing cards in math a lot.  I told him yes.  He response was, "okay, good.  Then, math is one of my favorite subjects now."  Clearly, I've managed to suck all the fun from math.  Like another poster above, I'm not into the bells and whistles.  I just like to get it done.  We've done games some in the past, but it isn't my thing.  But on the other hand, I don't want him to hate it.  So, I'm branching out and trying bring the fun back for him.  The other kids sat around and partnered with us today.  So, we were all playing cards together.  It reminded me that I used to LOVE to play cards and used to play all.the.time.  So, it wasn't too bad for me.  I could stand to have a little more fun too. :lol:

Pressure, or maybe time and processing speed?  With my dd I took it, at the time, to be a difference of auditory vs. visual, that somehow what she could do orally wasn't connecting with the visual part of her brain.  Turned out later, when I had her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist, that in fact that was the case.  She had the visual processing at age 11 of a 2 yo, so very poor visual memory, etc. etc. She was using her auditory to process everything because of the vision glitches, but she's actually right-brain dominant and VSL, meaning she was constantly using what was in fact biologically her weakest modality.  We needed to fix the vision problems so her VSL strengths could come out.  Kids who are extremely spatial, quirky, etc. often are VSL.  So in her case the card games were so auditory-only that they never were going to carry over to her written work.  We ended up doing VT (vision therapy) for the vision problems and then put a lot of effort into more visual input.  I gave her math tables to use and later a calculator.  I switched her over to TT so she'd get lots of visual.  It worked, and her computation scores finally came up to match her conceptual.

 

Oh, and she does have low processing speed and extremely low (like 5th percentile!) word recall and some motor control issues with writing, so yes that could have been playing into it.  Because her processing speed is so low, she's eligible for accommodations on tests.  I never gave her timed tests before I knew that either.  We did the Abeka drill books with a timer, but we did it in a more positive way, starting in pencil and switching to red ink when the timer went off, not making a big deal about the time.  If you think pressure (or time/processing speed) is part of it, then that's one way to help.

[Tiramisu]

Pressure, or maybe time and processing speed?  With my dd I took it, at the time, to be a difference of auditory vs. visual, that somehow what she could do orally wasn't connecting with the visual part of her brain.  Turned out later, when I had her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist, that in fact that was the case.  She had the visual processing at age 11 of a 2 yo, so very poor visual memory, etc. etc. She was using her auditory to process everything because of the vision glitches, but she's actually right-brain dominant and VSL, meaning she was constantly using what was in fact biologically her weakest modality.  We needed to fix the vision problems so her VSL strengths could come out.  Kids who are extremely spatial, quirky, etc. often are VSL.  So in her case the card games were so auditory-only that they never were going to carry over to her written work.  We ended up doing VT (vision therapy) for the vision problems and then put a lot of effort into more visual input.  I gave her math tables to use and later a calculator.  I switched her over to TT so she'd get lots of visual.  It worked, and her computation scores finally came up to match her conceptual.

 

Oh, and she does have low processing speed and extremely low (like 5th percentile!) word recall and some motor control issues with writing, so yes that could have been playing into it.  Because her processing speed is so low, she's eligible for accommodations on tests.  I never gave her timed tests before I knew that either.  We did the Abeka drill books with a timer, but we did it in a more positive way, starting in pencil and switching to red ink when the timer went off, not making a big deal about the time.  If you think pressure (or time/processing speed) is part of it, then that's one way to help.

 

The OPs description also makes me think of working memory. How many thoughts can you hold at once without something getting lost? How many balls can you hold without dropping some? Some people can hold more than others. 

 

I'll add our story to this.

 

I have one with major visual memory glitches. Despite this, she became the person in choir who the other singers depended on when it came to reading music. Unfortunately, she's in college and still has difficulty reading charts. What's the difference? She LOVES music. It makes her happy. So she spent time with it and reading music became automatic. 

 

When kids with these quirks feel pressure, it seems to aggravate their difficulties. When they really enjoy something, they can compensate well and develop those pathways OhE talked about.

 

My next dd, who was very fact-challenged, also has tested poorly in assessments of visual-motor skills. I still scribe for her sometimes because she can get bogged down in having to think and write at the same time, depending on if she's tired, feeling sick, etc. Scribing gets math done fast around here. 

 

I highly recommend scribing for kids who hate a certain subject because it does take the pressure off by lightening their processing load. Kids might hate something just because, but some kids might hate it for a reason, so it's good to pay attention to what other factors are playing into it.

[Mom2TheTeam]

UPDATE:  I took him to the eye doctor today.  He needs reading glasses!  And, his visual tracking is pretty bad.  This could definitely be one of the reason he doesn't like doing math and as the writing work and the equations have gotten longer the problem has become more of a hindrance causing him to dislike math so much.  So, we have some exercises to work on tracking and we pick up his glasses next week.  I really hope this helps a lot.  I suspected he may have an issue when he was struggling to learn to read, but he got it before I ended up taking him to get checked.  Honestly, I assumed I was just being paranoid.  :blush:  Obviously, I should have taken him in a while ago.  But, we are here now and getting it corrected.  I hope it makes a big difference for him.  :D

 

Thanks again everyone!

 

ETA - He is enjoying the math games and even asks to do math.  Things are looking up.  :hurray:

[Tiramisu]

I am thrilled with your update. :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

 

If your regular optometrist picked up a tracking issue, you will definitely need a visual processing evaluation. A developmental optometrist does visual processing evaluations and provides therapy for the tracking. You can find a developmental optometrist through covd.org. The evals are inexpensive and you'll find out what all the issues are. It's great start. Congratulations!

[Soror]

Awesome news! I know that feeling of thinking you're paranoid! I took ds to the COVD to rule out such issues but he was fine in that front, you just never know.

[Mom2TheTeam]

I am thrilled with your update. :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

 

If your regular optometrist picked up a tracking issue, you will definitely need a visual processing evaluation. A developmental optometrist does visual processing evaluations and provides therapy for the tracking. You can find a developmental optometrist through covd.org. The evals are inexpensive and you'll find out what all the issues are. It's great start. Congratulations!

 

Thanks!  As I was reading your reply I was thinking, "how do I get an eval?"  Then, you answered it.  LOL!!  Thank you for that information.

 

So, question though, can his tracking problem really be that bad when he is ready pretty well at this point?  He reads on a 3rd grade level.  He can read at a higher level than the books he chooses though.  He loves to read non-fiction.  Right now he is reading the science readers from CLE...the name is completely escaping me.  He likes a lot of Nat. Geo readers.  He still prefers early readers though he can read higher stuff.  I wonder if that is because the words are bigger. 

 

At any rate, I'm going to check out the website you suggested and look into it.  An eval won't hurt even if we find out he's fine.  Now, knowing that my instincts were right a year ago and I didn't take him makes me want to make sure I don't miss anything again.  I'd rather take him and nothing be wrong than not, KWIM. 

 

Thank you everyone!

[Mom2TheTeam]

I just did a search in my area and it came up with 0.  LOL!!  I widened the search to 50 miles and found some.  I love the price of housing here, but I hate that we have nothing around us.  I only live about 1.5 from a major metropolitan area.  We have everything you could imagine there.  It's just usually at least 45 minutes away.  With 6 kids 7 and under, that's a long drive.  But, it is what it is. We make it work when we have to.  :D

[PeterPan]

Yes, ditto what Misu said to make the effort.  If your regular optometrist found tracking issues, it's time to get in for the full developmental vision eval and get it all checked out.  We drove 45 min. to our COVD doc, because basically you have to drive to the big city to find things.  Don't just jump on the first or closest eye doc.  Quality really varies.  In general a Fellow is a better bet than one who's not.  You want one who's doing it a lot, not one who puts it on their website but hardly does it.  If they do sports vision, that's a particularly good sign.  Sports vision is more complicated to work on and requires them to do things that are kinesthetic, etc. etc.  Athletes will get VT to help them with sports (golfing, shooting, volleyball, etc.).  There's a really amazing doc out in CA who works with the US Olympic volleyball team.   :)

 

So definitely compare, drive farther to get someone really good, etc.  You'd rather have one session a month with a REALLY GREAT doc and just have them give you a scad of homework.  Our place wanted two sessions a week, and that was just killing us.  We went to double sessions with a break between so she didn't wear out.  

 

Yes, you can have developmental vision problems and have perfectly fine reading.  The smart ones often do, because their brains compensate.  For instance, your brain can develop it's own form of depth perception to compensate for having no TRUE depth perception.  Crazy, eh?  They may have very complicated workarounds they don't even realize are happening.  Dd had a rough time with her VT, and the therapist said her brain was just fighting it, trying to figure out if the new method was good or if it could stick with the old method.

 

Oh, dd had the visual processing of a 2 yo when we started VT.  She was, um, 11.  Top of the line test scores, off the chart reading, visual processing of a 2 yo.  So yes that happens and yes it made an amazing difference for us.  

 

You're looking at a 2-3 hour eval when you go in for developmental vision, so don't take along your kids.  Maybe just take the baby or take along Grandma and drop everyone at the park?  Just saying that can get really hairy with a lot of kids in a small room, and you're going to want to be able to watch the whole process, undistracted.  

 

Well good for you for getting some answers!  Keep pursuing it.  Don't be afraid of evals.  You know when my dd was around that age (6-ish) I thought about getting her some evals (IQ, etc.) just because I wanted to know how to teach her better and knew she was quite bright but contradictory.  There wasn't anything disastrous happening that I couldn't work with, and when I called and inquired the secretary BLEW ME OFF.  Six years later I was making those calls, at that point a lot more frustrated and with the realization that things I saw in those early years were there, were not my imagination, didn't go ahead, and that I would benefit from help.  I think Mama Gut is extremely in-tune and should be listened to.  Don't be afraid to pursue evals, whether it's vision or even something more.  You could save yourself a lot of heartache by catching things early.  You're doing the RIGHT THING.   :)

[Arcadia]

He still prefers early readers though he can read higher stuff. I wonder if that is because the words are bigger.

My 7 year old likes books with beautiful illustrations regardless of reading level. My 8 year old likes the font size bigger, is short sighted (near sighted?), and prefers ebooks or pdfs because he can enlarge the font.

I download classics from Gutenberg for him so that he can enlarge the font.