What would you do -- kids found a gun in the woods

[YaelAldrich]

The kids (12yo B, 9yo B, 6yo G) are already in a heap of trouble for being mouthy, chutzpadik and refusing to do schoolwork last week. I just got a phone call that blows my socks off.  I need sage advice because I'm too angry to see straight now.

 

My husband is out of town (back tomorrow afternoon) and the rest of us went to our synagogue as a family for a special lunch.  The older two boys ate and sped off to play with their friends (I have kept them on a tight rein the last couple of days -  no privileges, fun books, toys, etc, so I thought it might be nice for them to hang out for an hour before I take them home.)  

 

They evidently from what the other kids said they were hanging out in the wooded area behind the synagogue and found a gun. My kids picked it up (don't know if the other kids did so), identified it as BB gun and checked to see if it was loaded.  First, they know never to pick up a gun, not to touch it and certainly not to check to see if it is loaded.  Second, it is our Sabbath and guns are not allowed to be touched much less handled.  The other kid's mother said that her kids said mine seemed to know a lot about guns (they are obsessed  with them). One of the other parents called the police to pick up the gun (which was a BB gun and unloaded).  

 

I had toyed with the idea of getting them gun safety classes this year  and having someone teach them to use guns because I wanted their gun-love being channeled in a positive way (we don't own guns although my husband has shot before in a police internship in college; my in-laws are SERIOUSLY anti-gun).  I am very (understandably) upset with them since they did not tell me what happened, nor did they follow any of the gun safety information we have told them over and over.

 

What would be your next plan of action?  In my opinion their few privileges are going to be revoked (going to morning prayers at the synagogue, going out of my sight).  I almost woke them up but decided to wait until the morning.  I hate that I will have to tell my husband about not only the trouble they are giving me about starting up school again, but this too.  Help!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Catwoman]

If your kids knew that it was only a BB gun (and it sounds like they did,) I think you may be blowing this out of proportion.

 

Admittedly, they shouldn't have picked it up, but at least they checked to be sure it wasn't loaded, so they were being safe, and they didn't point it at anyone or threaten to shoot anyone.

 

What did they do with the gun after they found it and made sure it wasn't loaded? It sounds like someone told a parent, which was the right thing to do.

 

One question, though -- if they didn't tell you what happened, how and when did you learn about it? If they tried to keep it a secret from you, I can definitely understand why you would have been very angry.

[Parrothead]

Yeah, they'd be trouble in my house to if dd picked up an unknown firearm. If absolutely nothing else she has no way of knowing if it was used to commit a crime. And in picking it up she may have contaminated evidence. I know it is a BB gun, but if the police feel there is a need, the kids might need to be printed to eliminate their prints from any others that may be on the weapon. I doubt it, but there is an outside chance it could happen.

 

Then there is the not reporting the unattended firearm. That would get a week or two on the beach. (i.e. grounded)

 

Since your kids have a fascination and disobeyed the rule a firearm safety course is in order. As is a very stern talking to and some pretty severe consequences. Also a hug, cause, gosh, what if it had been loaded.

 

Good luck. Try to get some sleep tonight.

[YaelAldrich]

If your kids knew that it was only a BB gun (and it sounds like they did,) I think you may be blowing this out of proportion.

 

They checked to be sure it wasn't loaded, so they were being safe, and they didn't point it at anyone or threaten to shoot anyone.

 

What did they do with the gun after they found it and made sure it wasn't loaded? It sounds like someone told a parent, which was the right thing to do.

 

One question, though -- if they didn't tell you what happened, how and when did you learn about it? If they tried to keep it a secret from you, I can definitely understand why you would have been very angry.

One of the other mothers told me. She said her children told her rather nonchalantly that they had found a gun in the woods.  They have had little real-life contact with guns (limited to one friend with a BB gun and 1-2 times with that gun in their backyard), so I wouldn't call  them gun experts by any means.  If they had been wrong and if it had been loaded....

 

Mine told me nothing other than that I am mean for not letting them get out of schoolwork and housework and speak in a disrespectful manner.  Oh, and that I made them eat whole wheat bagels for dinner instead of white bagels. :)

[Catwoman]

One of the other mothers told me. She said her children told her rather nonchalantly that they had found a gun in the woods. They have had little real-life contact with guns (limited to one friend with a BB gun and 1-2 times with that gun in their backyard), so I wouldn't call them gun experts by any means. If they had been wrong and if it had been loaded....

 

Mine told me nothing other than that I am mean for not letting them get out of schoolwork and housework and speak in a disrespectful manner. Oh, and that I made them eat whole wheat bagels for dinner instead of white bagels. :)

Ok, I understand a bit better now -- they definitely should have told you about it immediately! I mean, it's not like they find unattended firearms in the woods every day, so this should have been a big deal to them, and I'm kind of surprised they didn't race to tell you about their big adventure.

 

I'm getting the impression that they knew they did something wrong, and they tried to hide it from you, which was absolutely wrong on their part, and would be more of an issue to me than the actual incident.

[SKL]

That whole wheat again.  You have got to stop with the whole wheat.

 

Oh, about the gun.  If it was readily identifiable as a BB gun, then to me it was not a big deal that they touched it.  It is a natural thing to do - I would have done exactly the same thing.  It is against your rule so there should be a consequence for disobeying as you would normally consequence for that.

 

To me, it is a bigger deal that they did not report that they found a gun.  Still, not the end of the world, but that would concern me more because it seems to go against community safety as well as the deceit factor.  I mean, what if a little kid found the gun next and shot his eye out?  I know BB guns are generally harmless, but just today I read in the news about a dad who accidentally shot and killed his 18mo son with a BB gun.  I would be sitting my kids down and make a big deal about their not taking the appropriate actions after finding the gun.

 

I would make them take a gun safety course, but I'd make them pay for it so it isn't a reward for bad behavior.

 

Sounds like they are on your last nerve this weekend.  I hope a talk with dad helps turn them around.  Good luck!

[bolt.]

I assume they didn't tell you because they are really feeing how troubled the relationship between you and them is right now -- frequent 'getting in trouble' and very few privileges.

 

It seems to me that if you want openess, you will need to foster the idea that they can safely tell you things -- that you aren't going to be mad or make their lives miserable if you hear about their occasional misdeeds and misjudgements.

 

If you prefer to try to implement compliance based on them anticipating consiquences, you can stick with punishments as your go-to reaction -- but you will need to up your levels of supervision. They are very well aware that there will be no consistencies for things you aren't there to observe.

 

(It does sound like they recognized the BB-nature of the gun before they touched it. I don't think they would have touched it if they really thought it was a firearm. They could have been mistaken, but from their perspective, believing what they thought at the time, they were touching a toy -- not a weapon, Sabbath or not.)

[YaelAldrich]

Yes, they should have.  They wouldn't have gotten in trouble for that at all!  But touching, checking if the gun is loaded and then not telling me they found a gun are going to get them in trouble.  I think I may them pay for a gun safety course (that will make them say ouch - they hate having to spend their own cash) in addition to the total grounding they are going to get.  Their Nerf guns are going to go away forever as well.  

 

Sigh.  Any more advice or sympathy greatly and gratefully accepted.

[umsami]

I agree with having them pay for the gun safety course.  

 

As for the fact that it was a BB gun, DH is an ophthalmologist and last year had to repair a ruptured globe (eye) of a 12 year old from a BB gun.  The kid most likely will lose (if he hasn't already) his eye.  Don't kid yourself that a BB gun cannot be very dangerous.

 

There was a recent story about a gun safety instructor who shot a student in his class because  he didn't realize the gun was loaded.  I wouldn't be 100% certain that kids would be able to verify it.  We follow the gun safety protocol of if you find a gun, don't touch it, tell an adult. 

[bolt.]

There is a difference between you knowing that you wouldn't have given consequences for telling you what they had done about the BB gun... And them actually believing that you wouldn't. If you want them to be honest when they make mistakes, it's *they* who have to believe that doing so will not go badly for them. They clearly don't. You might be wise to start workjng hard at convincing them that you are more of a helper than a punisher when they screw up.

[Catwoman]

Yes, they should have. They wouldn't have gotten in trouble for that at all! But touching, checking if the gun is loaded and then not telling me they found a gun are going to get them in trouble. I think I may them pay for a gun safety course (that will make them say ouch - they hate having to spend their own cash) in addition to the total grounding they are going to get. Their Nerf guns are going to go away forever as well. .

I'm sorry, but I think the Nerf thing is a huge overreaction. Forever is an awfully long time.

 

You seem to be awfully focused on severe punishments. I think it's more important to work on better communication and stressing the importance of telling the truth than it is to insist on "total grounding" and taking their Nerf guns away forever.

 

I have to be honest with you -- if you punish them like this on a frequent basis, I can kind of understand why they didn't tell you what had happened. I'm not saying they weren't wrong, just that I can understand why they would be worried about being punished for telling you they found and touched the BB gun.

[Word Nerd]

I don't see the connection between their bad decisions when they found the BB gun and their Nerf guns.

[zoobie]

I don't know, as I think you've got several more layers of complication with their actions being against your religious beliefs as well as your parental teachings. I'm also not as dismissive if it being "just" a BB gun. Current local news headline is about a father accidentally killing his 18 month old son with one. I'd want to know who touched it, why they didn't tell me, why the other kids didn't tell me the sibling had endangered them, if they realized and dismissed the Sabbath prohibition or if it was forgotten in the excitement (still wrong but different level of wrong), etc. The gun safety course sounds like a good idea.

[YaelAldrich]

I see the connection as irresponsibility with real guns gets all the Nerf guns taken away.  Too much?

 

When they tell me stuff that could have gotten them into trouble, I don't punish.  They get a stern talking to though, but not punishment.  Wrong is wrong.  I do punish for lying and they will get a punishment for that.  

 

Their disrespect and disobedience regarding school is an ongoing problem with one (scheduled for a neuro-psych evaluation to rule any LDs) , an in the beginning of puberty boy issue with another and a budding diva who doesn't need her day ruined with schoolwork.  They want vacation to continue forever and it's not gonna happen.  ;) 

 

Now, I have to find a gun safety class they can attend (and pay for) that doesn't meet on Saturdays.

[Starr]

It sounds like you may want to work on your family relationship in general. The gun thing sounds like a symptom of a larger issue.  :grouphug:

[bolt.]

I don't think the strategy you are planning is going to accomplish your overall goal. I hope you will consider re-thinking your approach if you want different dynamics and different results. It's not a criticism, just an observation approach/philosophy you are using doesn't seem to be getting you your desired results so far. It might be time to think outside the box.

[Tap]

Honestly, I would contact the police station to see if they have an officer who could have a chat with my kids about the situation.  Sometimes, another adult can make more of an impact than a parent in these types of situations.  Your previous talks either weren't taken as seriously as you thought or that the kids just acted out of impulse.  Instead of just talking about 'don't do this' you also need to put in 'if you make a mistake do this anyways, this is how you handle the next step'.

 

 

Second, I would reevaluate why my kids didn't come to me first, or tell me after the fact.  If they were already in trouble at home and picked up the gun without thinking, they knew your would be livid and I can pretty much guess that is why you were out of the loop after the fact.  They knew they would pay a very high price for this behavior.  I would seriously question and Change how I communicate with my kids, if they did not feel safe coming to me after they found it.  A person of any age can make an impulsive, wrong decision. How they handle the situation after the fact can be more important than the impulsive act!  If my kids didn't think I was safe to confide in when they realize that they made a mistake, I would work hard to make sure they didn't feel that way in the future. 

 

 

My personal experience with 'on the Sabbath' violation of rules..... is that my friends (dif faith but who had similar sundown to sundown rules) often didn't really understand their purpose  and that the extreme punishments that they received for small violations, were wedges driven between then and their faith over the years.  Yes, they understood that you don't do xyz on the Sabbath, but often the rules are kind of arbitrary adult concepts.   I remember one friend who stayed afterschool, and got home after dark from a sporting event on Friday afternoon because it went into overtime. She didn't realize it was already dark outside when the game got out.   Her parents reaction was to require her to come home immediately after school every Friday thereafter.  Instead of realizing that the girl wanted to do the right thing and that it was a simple mistake, they drove the point home and this circumstance was just one of the wedges that led the girl away from her faith as soon as she left home.  Had they looked at her heart, and helped her find forgiveness....at least one less wedge would have been put between her and her faith. I am not saying it was the cause, just that huge consequences for small infractions was one of them. 

 

 

[YaelAldrich]

I'm sorry, but I think the Nerf thing is a huge overreaction. Forever is an awfully long time.

 

You seem to be awfully focused on severe punishments. I think it's more important to work on better communication and stressing the importance of telling the truth than it is to insist on "total grounding" and taking their Nerf guns away forever.

 

I have to be honest with you -- if you punish them like this on a frequent basis, I can kind of understand why they didn't tell you what had happened. I'm not saying they weren't wrong, just that I can understand why they would be worried about being punished for telling you they found and touched the BB gun.

They aren't punished like this often - maybe once in their lives before this. Usually, it's something like you can't read your library books for a week (they can read the 324567 other books in the house) or they have to run on the treadmill for five minutes to get out the chutzpah or they are awarded an extra chore for the day, or simply they can't go and play until school is done. 

 

I feel I have to take a stand that they understand I am serious that their education is numero uno in their lives.  They don't want to go to school (the Jewish kids in this community are in school 8-4pm (and then homework) and then have tutoring in additional Jewish subjects if they want to matriculate to the "good" high schools; their friends in other communities go on Sunday to school from 9-12 as well) but they don't want to do the work at home either.  They know school can be done by 2-3pm (we have a dual curriculum like all Orthodox Jewish kids in the US) with no homework, but they'd rather read and play Lego.  I'm not an unschooler and I don't plan on becoming one.

 

I and their father talk nicely about their responsibilities and we get a lot of snark in return.  So I put down my foot last week. They can earn back the privileges (and their stuff) when they show me they can do their job just as the adults in our family do (go to work/teach students, clean house, make food, learn Torah) with at least a neutral attitude.  

 

We've been working outside to rehab the exterior of our new home instead of school and they hate it - too bad.  If love would have conquered this problem, it would have happened a long time ago.  Now I have to deal with this too...

[Catwoman]

I see the connection as irresponsibility with real guns gets all the Nerf guns taken away. Too much?

 

When they tell me stuff that could have gotten them into trouble, I don't punish. They get a stern talking to though, but not punishment. Wrong is wrong. I do punish for lying and they will get a punishment for that.

 

Their disrespect and disobedience regarding school is an ongoing problem with one (scheduled for a neuro-psych evaluation to rule any LDs) , an in the beginning of puberty boy issue with another and a budding diva who doesn't need her day ruined with schoolwork. They want vacation to continue forever and it's not gonna happen. ;)

 

Now, I have to find a gun safety class they can attend (and pay for) that doesn't meet on Saturdays.

I don't understand why they should have to take and pay for a gun safety class. :confused: You can teach them what they need to know at home. A gun safety class is only going to make them more interested in guns, not less interested in them, and realistically, it sounds like your kids actually were safe when they handled the BB gun. If you'd said they had pointed it at someone or pretended to shoot someone, that would have been entirely different, but it doesn't seem like they did anything of the kind.

 

I definitely don't see a connection between irresponsibility with a real gun being in any way related to playing with Nerf guns. If anything, I'd want them to use the Nerf guns!

[YaelAldrich]

I don't understand why they should have to take and pay for a gun safety class. :confused: You can teach them what they need to know at home. A gun safety class is only going to make them more interested in guns, not less interested in them, and realistically, it sounds like your kids actually were safe when they handled the BB gun. If you'd said they had pointed it at someone or pretended to shoot someone, that would have been entirely different, but it doesn't seem like they did anything of the kind.

 

I definitely don't see a connection between irresponsibility with a real gun being in any way related to playing with Nerf guns. If anything, I'd want them to use the Nerf guns!

 

We have gone over these rules (don't touch an unattended gun, if you find one, run and tell an adult, don't check to see if it loaded) lots of times.  We've shown them news clips about tragedies when kids find guns, we've told them that if they want to learn how to shoot safely, we will get them that education (we just moved back to the States this month).  

 

Of course, I have to hear it from their mouths tomorrow, but as far as I know (and I hope to G-d I'm wrong), the lessons went in one ear and out the other.  Guns can be deadly -- I thought they knew that.  They have to know what to do instinctively, just like any other time (cooking around flames, crossing a busy intersection, taking public transportation alone).  Kids make mistakes, but this one isn't one like burning the chicken or making a mistake in math.  

[Catwoman]

They aren't punished like this often - maybe once in their lives before this. Usually, it's something like you can't read your library books for a week (they can read the 324567 other books in the house) or they have to run on the treadmill for five minutes to get out the chutzpah or they are awarded an extra chore for the day, or simply they can't go and play until school is done.

 

I feel I have to take a stand that they understand I am serious that their education is numero uno in their lives. They don't want to go to school (the Jewish kids in this community are in school 8-4pm (and then homework) and then have tutoring in additional Jewish subjects if they want to matriculate to the "good" high schools; their friends in other communities go on Sunday to school from 9-12 as well) but they don't want to do the work at home either. They know school can be done by 2-3pm (we have a dual curriculum like all Orthodox Jewish kids in the US) with no homework, but they'd rather read and play Lego. I'm not an unschooler and I don't plan on becoming one.

 

I and their father talk nicely about their responsibilities and we get a lot of snark in return. So I put down my foot last week. They can earn back the privileges (and their stuff) when they show me they can do their job just as the adults in our family do (go to work/teach students, clean house, make food, learn Torah) with at least a neutral attitude.

 

We've been working outside to rehab the exterior of our new home instead of school and they hate it - too bad. If love would have conquered this problem, it would have happened a long time ago. Now I have to deal with this too...

It sounds like the kids have been giving you a very hard time lately, and you're also dealing with the stress of rehabbing your home, so I can definitely understand why you might have a slightly shorter fuse than usual! :D

 

My best advice to you is to try to relax and calm down a bit before you start dishing out strict punishments that you may regret later. Honestly, the first thing I would do is nicely ask the kids why they didn't tell you about the BB gun. If they say that they knew they would be in trouble, I think punishing them is just about the last thing you should do, and that you should focus on improving your relationship with them in a more positive way.

 

Sorry you're stuck dealing with this. I'm sure a big part of all this is that you keep picturing "what might have happened" if the gun had been loaded, or if it had been a different kind of gun with real bullets in it. It's terrifying to even think of stuff like that. :grouphug:

[Spy Car]

I argue for leniency. Why?

 

The oldest boy is 12—not 13—so under halakhah he's a minor, and therefore not obligated to observe Shabbat. Surely you will object that he's well past the time of being educable and should not willfully violate Shabbos without good cause.

 

But did they have "good cause?" 

 

What do you do if you find a gun? Do you leave it where some other child—perhaps one younger and less aware of the danger—might come across it (with potentially disastrous consequences)? I think not. Even an adult would be compelled to act, for the higher good. I would argue they did the right thing, and should be commended.

 

Also lots of rabbis get around the idea that guns (real guns) are muktzah on Shabbos, in any case. I'm not sure I buy the reasoning, but it is out there.

 

And If it was a BB gun, is it even prohibited? There is no spark, no fire. I lean towards permissible (especially for a minor). Of course I have no authority.

 

Them not telling you they found the BB gun is problematic. This is not OK. 

 

Whole-wheat bagels? That's just wrong :D

 

Lastly, if the boys are having an unhealthy obsession with guns the last thing in the world I would advise doing is to send them of to "gun education classes" where they will no doubt encounter (and likely be taught by) gun-nuts. That is the worst option. Instead send them off to the in-laws for a good values education on why guns are bad.

 

My 2 cents. Oh, and while were on the subject of gelt, if it needs to "cost them" let them give tzedakah (as opposed to funding the NRA).

 

Bill 

[swellmomma]

I would punish for the secrecy more than for touching the gun.  My kids found 2 loaded guns laying out in the open at a friend's house a few weeks back.  The mom was napping, and the little 2 year old was running around playing when my kids walked in with the friend.  My oldest picked one up and moved it up high because he was scared of the little one getting it, my other ds (he was 9 at teh time) went to move the other one, got curious and pointed it at the floor.  That was when the friend yelled "stop, that's my dads, it is loaded".  Turns out they were both BB guns, and are now kept locked up.  Younger ds was afraid to tell me he pointed it at the floor, but the other kids told me right away what happened (which is how I know they are kept locked up now).  They weren't punished at all, though younger ds and I reviewed the rules.  They were worried about the safety of the toddler around those guns so even though I have a "do not touch" rule they were trying to do the right thing. If they had tried to keep it a secret though I would have been furious.  I can't stand sneakiness.  If you do something wrong, own up to it and face the consequences, don't lie and be sneaky.  The consequences in this case is they are never allowed at that house again, not for punishment but for safety.  I don't know how you should deal with it with your kids, but I can understand why you are so angry.

[gardenmom5]

right now, i'd be more concerned that my kids didn't want to/were afraid to talk to me about something.

 

 

eta: I think your in-laws stances on things are irrelevant (I'd say the same thing if they were pro-gun) - YOU are the one rearing your children, not them.

[swellmomma]

as for gun obsessed kids, gun safety is a must imo for them.  My oldest was gun obsessed until last year when he started being trained to shoot in cadets.  Turns out he has the makings of a marksman, prior to the cadet training I could see him doing something stupid with teh found gun instead of simply putting it up out of reach of the toddler.  Being in cadets and learning appropriate use of guns has quelled much of his obsession with them (though it is dampened some of his obsession with fire, it is not nearly as under control as with guns).  Next summer I am sending my teens to a week long camp where they will earn their hunter's ed certificate and their fire arms possession license.  They still won't be allowed to have guns in my home, but they will have the safety training on a multitude of guns (rifles and handguns), and I will feel much better knowing they will have that training and experience with them.  It takes all the mystery out of guns imo to be trained on their proper safety and usage.

[YaelAldrich]

Before I go to bed, I want to thank everyone for their sympathy and advice.  

 

They aren't going to get yelled at, and I won't give away their Nerf guns to poor African children (along with the whole wheat bagels).  But my husband and I are going to have to figure out the consequences for not telling me about the gun when the group of them found it (Bill, one of the older kids could have stayed with the gun while another big kid went to get help).  We're also going to have the "If something happens that is bad, come tell us and we will work it out and not punish you, but if you lie/don't tell us, then it will really be bad) talk again.  They tend to get in trouble for chutzpah/attitude, not breaking stuff/hurting others or lying, so this bothers me very much.

 

G'night all -- parenting is hard work. :(

[Catwoman]

Before I go to bed, I want to thank everyone for their sympathy and advice.

 

They aren't going to get yelled at, and I won't give away their Nerf guns to poor African children (along with the whole wheat bagels). But my husband and I are going to have to figure out the consequences for not telling me about the gun when the group of them found it (Bill, one of the older kids could have stayed with the gun while another big kid went to get help). We're also going to have the "If something happens that is bad, come tell us and we will work it out and not punish you, but if you lie/don't tell us, then it will really be bad) talk again. They tend to get in trouble for chutzpah/attitude, not breaking stuff/hurting others or lying, so this bothers me very much.

 

G'night all -- parenting is hard work. :(

Sounds like you have a good plan! :)

 

But I feel kind of sorry for the African kids who will end up with the whole wheat bagels. ;)

[Lanny]

I did a lot of shooting, primarily target shooting with a Revolver, at a Police pistol range, and Trap shooting, with a Shotgun, when I was 11-13 years old. I was planning to get a permit so I could Import my 12 gauge Shotgun, after I moved here, but it was stored in the garage of my best friend and their house in Texas burned down, when his wife's Honda caught fire...

 

The first thing that I would teach your children is that they must assume ALL weapons are loaded, at ALL times. Sadly, there have been many very tragic accidents, with people being shot, by someone who thought a weapon was "unloaded".

 

Second, they must NEVER point a weapon at a person or animal  they do not intend to kill.

 

Yes, if they are interested in guns, an N.R.A. Safety course would be excellent for them. They should receive instruction, from qualified people, about how to use, clean and store guns safely.

 

Since you have young children, if you do acquire weapons, they must be stored safely, so your children do not have access to them without your knowledge and permission and your supervision.

 

I had a BB gun, before I had real guns and one can kill or injure, with a BB gun too...

 

As to the gun they found. Had it been a real gun, they should not have touched it, because, had it been used in a crime, they would have ruined any fingerprints that might be on it. The proper thing to do, if it had been a real gun, would have been to call the local Police or Sheriff to retrieve it.

 

GL and "Shanah Tovah"

[MyThreeSons]

What would be your next plan of action?  In my opinion their few privileges are going to be revoked (going to morning prayers at the synagogue, going out of my sight).

I could maybe understand not letting them out of your sight for a while, but I absolutely cannot understand why you would not allow them to go to morning prayers.

 

If the two are connected, then I would find a way to make an exception for the prayer time, or to accompany them, or something. I would NEVER take away that aspect of my kids' lives.

 

When we have had to impose restrictions on our kids, we still allowed them to attend their youth group meetings.

[bolt.]

Children do best in families where there is no level of trepidation regarding "big bad trouble" over the errors of judgement they are going to make as children.

 

It is much healthier (and more effective) to openly work to develop good judgement -- using examples of bad judgement as examples (and opportunities for repentance / amends).

 

Your idea of, "Get out of trouble free for telling the truth, but, boy watch out if you hide your mistakes!" Has been tried for generations. It doesn't work. The psychology is all wrong. The child is already nervous and agitated within (because s/he knows what they did was wrong / against rules) and the calculation of "maybe there is a way to avoid super scary stuff if I can make myself spontaneously verbalize this" -- is just so big that it makes the internal situation far worse, far more fearful. The child will generally opt to hide his/her misdeeds (especially the very bad or very upsetting ones) anyways, because s/he is hiding from the whole situation itself: especially from the possibility that a parent might enter the situation with all their power over the child and their (seemingly) capricious variety if potential reactions.

 

Your family sounds very steeped in this tit-for-tat consequences mentality. It's hard for kids to view a parent as "usually someone who helps with my troubles and mistakes" when the constant stream of small evidence is that a parent is "usually someone who makes my mistakes into bigger problems for me". I really want to encourage you to re-think your whole strategy (not just your response to this incident).

[Flowing Brook]

 

What would be your next plan of action?  In my opinion their few privileges are going to be revoked (going to morning prayers at the synagogue, going out of my sight).  I almost woke them up but decided to wait until the morning.  I hate that I will have to tell my husband about not only the trouble they are giving me about starting up school again, but this too.  Help!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I would never use going to or not going to church or your case synagogue as a punishment.  This is something we do to worship. 

[Berta]

The lying and not telling you is what would get my kids in trouble. The gun obsession does not sound like they are on track to be mass murderers. They didn't pick it up and chase other kids around, they did what they believed was safe handling of it. They have a natural attraction to guns, nothing wrong with that as long as they are taught safety.

 

Teaching kids that guns are bad does not keep them from wanting to know about guns. Especially if they have a natural interest in guns. If anything, it will make them more secretive when it comes to guns and the attraction to that "bad" thing will pique their interests even more. Teach them safe handling, starting with a BB gun, which can be dangerous and deserves the same safety measures as a real gun. I started my 8 yr old out teaching safe handling and all the rules of gun safety with a BB gun. I have no doubt that she will handle a real gun safely, just as I have taught my older three kids.

 

Golden rules:

 

All guns should be treated as if they are loaded.

If someone hands you a gun and says it's not loaded, always check to make sure YOURSELF.

Don't aim at anything you don't want to destroy.

Know what is behind your target.

FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER until you are ready to pull it.

 

[YaelAldrich]

I would never use going to or not going to church or your case synagogue as a punishment.  This is something we do to worship. 

They can pray anywhere, but they used to go by themselves.  I will not let them out of my sight for a while.   Letting them out of my sight got them into this problem.  Their father will be back tonight, when we will discuss all the week's happenings.  He can take them to minyan (prayer services in the synagogue) and when he can't they can't go.

[chiguirre]

Their disrespect and disobedience regarding school is an ongoing problem with one (scheduled for a neuro-psych evaluation to rule any LDs) , an in the beginning of puberty boy issue with another and a budding diva who doesn't need her day ruined with schoolwork.  They want vacation to continue forever and it's not gonna happen.   ;)

Are you sure the one with the neuro-psych appointment is capable of doing his work? I finally had to throw in the towel with Geezle in 2nd grade. He could learn K and 1st grade stuff by working 3 times as hard as a neurotypical kid, but we hit the wall in 2nd grade. Trying to force him to work 4 times as hard as a typical kid was not the solution and it put a real strain on our relationship. Until you know what you're dealing with, I'd try to back off and give him work at a level that he's already mastered. You can still have him work, but try to avoid frustrating him until you're clear on what path you need to take.

 

:grouphug:

[YaelAldrich]

I spoke to them this morning. I started by asking if anything happened yesterday.  They said nothing.  I then asked them if they wanted to tell me anything.  They looked guilty but told me no.  Then I told them that I found something out.  They said, "What?"  

 

I told them I found out that they found a gun in the woods and the police got involved (which they did).  I asked them what happened.  They told me that the other kids had found a gun in the woods and asked them to come see it.  They went in a group (with 4yo kids and up) and found the gun again.  My kids (and the other kids -- the other mother told me that the other kids told her only  my kids) picked it up and inspected it - it had a sticker that said BB gun on it.  One of my kids inspected to see if it was loaded and pointed it at the ground and tried to fire it.  The gun must have been rusty because he nor the other kids (they all tried after him) to fire the gun.  Thank G-d.  They then took the gun out of the woods and put it under a orange cone in the playground area to decide what to do with it afterwards.  They debated trying to find the owners.  Then one of the boys told their father and he called the police.  

 

It's almost funny -- those same boys (minus mine as I require them not to wander the halls like the other parents during worship times and to actually be in the sanctuary) mentioned in my hearing that they were going to the woods (they were supposed to be in a class to contain them -- taught by yours truly. They don't want to come in and the other parents won't make them come in nor will they make them come into the sanctuary so they are unsupervised for several hours each Shabbat) and I told them it was not a good idea to do that.  Obviously they didn't listen to me.    :glare:

 

Such silly and dangerous boy-play.  I'm not a helicopter parent by any means.  I will trust my kids to do the right thing if they show me maturity and independent spirit.  This was not one of those times.  They all traversed Tokyo by themselves many times and I let them tramp through the forest if we are someplace that I think they cannot get lost(i.e., a small copse of trees).  They plan and cook elaborate meals as a group.  They walk to local places when other children are driven less than 0.2 miles and are expected to act like the grownups there (and shown themselves worthy of that trust) .  We have gone over gun safety a zillion times, especially since a good friend of theirs has a BB gun and they have petitioned to have one themselves.  I thought they were mature  -- they showed me that they are not mature enough to get a gun of any sort.  They will get more (hopefully better than our gun safety training) gun training at their expense.  The lying will have other consequences.  This was serious on too many levels and needs to be addressed.

 

Bolt, I'd love to hear your parenting theories and what you would do if you children broke gun safety rules you had set and then lied to you about said breaking of rules.  Please don't start with the premise that your children would never break gun safety rules; that won't help me.  What age children do you have?

[YaelAldrich]

Are you sure the one with the neuro-psych appointment is capable of doing his work? I finally had to throw in the towel with Geezle in 2nd grade. He could learn K and 1st grade stuff by working 3 times as hard as a neurotypical kid, but we hit the wall in 2nd grade. Trying to force him to work 4 times as hard as a typical kid was not the solution and it put a real strain on our relationship. Until you know what you're dealing with, I'd try to back off and give him work at a level that he's already mastered. You can still have him work, but try to avoid frustrating him until you're clear on what path you need to take.

 

:grouphug:

Can he do the work - yes.  Does he want to do the work - no.  He won't even button his pants because it is too much effort.  He would rather pull them over his hips even though it takes longer.  If it is hard and requires thinking or effort he's not into it.  His fine motor skills have not always been the best but I have seen adequate progress over the years.  His cursive is loads better than his print writing, and he can memorize loads of information he gets from reading, but when it comes to capitalizing words at the beginning of sentences, forget it.  I've tried rewards, consequences, and everything else, so I want to rule out any organic issues and get more advice.  

[Word Nerd]

 

Lastly, if the boys are having an unhealthy obsession with guns the last thing in the world I would advise doing is to send them of to "gun education classes" where they will no doubt encounter (and likely be taught by) gun-nuts. That is the worst option. Instead send them off to the in-laws for a good values education on why guns are bad.

 

 

Bill

Yes, I can see how emotion-based lectures would be preferable to learning the proper use and handling of a gun and why it should be taken seriously--which is what my "gun-nut" dad taught my sisters and me. Prohibition always works so well!

[chiguirre]

It's almost funny -- those same boys (minus mine as I require them not to wander the halls like the other parents during worship times and to actually be in the sanctuary) mentioned in my hearing that they were going to the woods (they were supposed to be in a class to contain them -- taught by yours truly. They don't want to come in and the other parents won't make them come in nor will they make them come into the sanctuary so they are unsupervised for several hours each Shabbat) and I told them it was not a good idea to do that.  Obviously they didn't listen to me.    :glare:

Wow! I think you need to talk to whoever is in charge of the business affairs of your congregation because that is a disaster waiting to happen. Your congregation could easily lose its insurance for allowing unsupervised children to roam freely for hours. If something happens to a child, their parents could face a CPS investigation.

 

You need to address this situation immediately, especially if you're the adult who is supposed to be watching these kids. At a minimum, I'd have a sign-in sheet at the door of your class and only accept responsibility for the kids who were signed in by their parent. I'd also make sure I had another adult in the room with me at all times. If there isn't anyone else, I wouldn't volunteer to watch anyone else's kids, period. If you're supposed to be babysitting but the kids won't listen to you and get hurt, you could end up being CPSed too.

 

I hope you can get things straightened out quickly, but protect yourself legally until you can.

[YaelAldrich]

Wow! I think you need to talk to whoever is in charge of the business affairs of your congregation because that is a disaster waiting to happen. Your congregation could easily lose its insurance for allowing unsupervised children to roam freely for hours. If something happens to a child, their parents could face a CPS investigation.

 

You need to address this situation immediately, especially if you're the adult who is supposed to be watching these kids. At a minimum, I'd have a sign-in sheet at the door of your class and only accept responsibility for the kids who were signed in by their parent. I'd also make sure I had another adult in the room with me at all times. If there isn't anyone else, I wouldn't volunteer to watch anyone else's kids, period. If you're supposed to be babysitting but the kids won't listen to you and get hurt, you could end up being CPSed too.

 

I hope you can get things straightened out quickly, but protect yourself legally until you can.

This is (sadly) the norm  in many Orthodox Jewish congregations.  The fathers come to synagogue and bring the kids to get them out of the hair of the mothers (who are often at home with their younger children).  If the kids don't go to the sanctuary (which in this case only my older boys do), they wander the halls of the synagogue or worse, outside.  I'm always surprised that more kids haven't gotten hit by cars or suffered injuries from playing by themselves unattended.  I usually supervise mine in this situation, even though I hate having to be a helicopter parent.  This time, I was eating lunch and hearing a speaker with the congregation (since my husband was gone I was parenting solo) while the kids finished their lunches and ran off.  That's my fault.  I should have taken my lunch outside where they were.   I thought they would hang out on the play equipment with their friends.  Obviously, they did not.  

 

They can't sign kids in and out; we can't write on the Jewish Sabbath.  I could come up with a Sabbath-compliant solution easily, but that doesn't help when people don't take responsibility for their kids.  I am rethinking this service to the synagogue.  There are no other people interested in this task, which is why the kids are running around.  Everyone wants to be in the sanctuary or at home, chilling after a long week.  Heck, so do I,  but I hang  out at the park with them anyways.   I think the synagogue will have to rethink their child care policies, but I'm not holding my breath. 

[chiguirre]

They can't sign kids in and out; we can't write on the Jewish Sabbath.  I could come up with a Sabbath-compliant solution easily, but that doesn't help when people don't take responsibility for their kids.  I am rethinking this service to the synagogue.  There are no other people interested in this task, which is why the kids are running around.  Everyone wants to be in the sanctuary or at home, chilling after a long week.  Heck, so do I,  but I hang  out at the park with them anyways.   I think the synagogue will have to rethink their child care policies, but I'm not holding my breath. 

I would absolutely refuse to be the only adult in charge of the kids who are not with their parents. You're opening yourself up to be held liable when something bad happens. I'd take a break from going to the synagogue for a month or so to mark a clear break and make it crystal clear you are not responsible for watching other people's kids. That service is over and no longer on your plate.

[Dory]

As a mom in an area that sees and uses a lot of firearms and having grown up with them, this is how I would've seen it.

The lieing would have me angry. They would be in trouble for their lack of honestly, but it would have nothing to do with the BB gun they found. Their lack of safety measures when handling the gun (you never try to fire an unknown gun that you just found laying in the woods), would have me telling them that they would not be getting a BB gun of their own for awhile until they reproved their maturity (this would be a big deal as my oldest will be getting his first BB gun for his birthday in 3 months). I would still sign them up for a firearms safety course or send them to spend time with family or friends that are well versed on how to handle guns and make sure the boys get a little more time being taught good safety skills from someone other than me (sometimes it just needs to come from someone else).

Picking up the gun wouldn't have me upset with them. Even though it isn't allowed, I probably would've instinctively done so as well without thinking about it until after I was holding it. Leaving a gun sitting on the ground is unsafe and that would've been running through my head. Around here though, the concept of a gun being used in a crime would never be the first thing I'd think of. I probably would've actually told my kid good job for getting the gun off the ground and away from other children had that been all they had done (I probably would let them know that that would've been the case too), but because they didn't actually get it out of the way, they played around with it and they weren't honest, I would be a little annoyed at them.

I'd be super specific about what things I was not happy with though. I wouldn't draw it all out, after all it does sound like usually thoughtlessness that goes with young boys. I'd be to the point and have it out there and done with and move on. It's not healthy for them to bounce from one discipline to another so I'd try not to make it a bigger deal than I had to.

[YaelAldrich]

I would absolutely refuse to be the only adult in charge of the kids who are not with their parents. You're opening yourself up to be held liable when something bad happens. I'd take a break from going to the synagogue for a month or so to mark a clear break and make it crystal clear you are not responsible for watching other people's kids. That service is over and no longer on your plate.

 

I was thinking about all yesterday before I knew about this gun stuff.  I just wrote a letter to the person who asked to start this group (that was started two weeks ago).  I told them that unless the parents put their kids in the group (and the kids stay and behave), I can't do this anymore.   I had six kids (two of them were mine) this week while 12-15 others wandered the halls or outside.  I volunteered to put together a round robin supervision or just dissolve the group and let things fall as they may.  One of this person's kids came whining to me that she didn't like that there was a kindergartener in the class (the class is for 1st-4th grade), but didn't come to class herself with her crowd.  The mother told me that, "So-and-so, has a problem with a K-er being in the class."  I replied that I had a problem that her daughter had been asked to come to the class and refused to do so.  Sigh. 

[OrganicAnn]

About the gun safety class, don't expect it to prevent this type of situation.   I saw a program where they had various ages of kids and put them in a room with bins of toys.  There was a buzzer to call a parent/adult.   The room had those mirror/one-way glass windows and was set up with a camera running. In the bins of toy was an unloaded gun.    They counted how long if any time between then the child found the gun and called for an adult parent.   

 

A certain percentage of the kids had been through gun safety classes which included being taught not to touch an unknown gun.    The parents who had sent their kids through those courses were so sure that their kid would not touch the gun.   They were very surprises when the minutes went by and their kid continued to play with the gun.  

 

Guns are very attractive to kids.  

 

All that being said, I don't think you should dismiss it as no big deal.  It was against your religion, against your rules, they continued to lie.   It is a big deal.  You probably don't trust them as much now as you did before this.   

 

You will have to find your own way in this, punishment, education, etc.   It is okay to think it through and discuss it with your husband.   You don't have to make a snap decision. 

 

One thing I do is I don't put my DD in a position to lie more.   If I know something, I just tell her I know she did X.   I also tell her she would get in double trouble for lying (if I find out later).  

 

 

[SKL]

Honestly, this sounds like everyone is stressed out and needs a break.  Your kids do not sound like bad children at all.  Of course even good kids need discipline, but if it gets to be continual, something needs to give.  Probably after a week or two, things will naturally calm down as everyone settles into the routine of school.

 

After giving the boys a little time to shake in their boots, I'd probably go in there and hug them and remind them that although they need discipline, they are still loved and adored.

 

And please don't beat this to death in your home.  Give them a chance to move on and show you better.

[YaelAldrich]

Honestly, this sounds like everyone is stressed out and needs a break.  Your kids do not sound like bad children at all.  Of course even good kids need discipline, but if it gets to be continual, something needs to give.  Probably after a week or two, things will naturally calm down as everyone settles into the routine of school.

 

After giving the boys a little time to shake in their boots, I'd probably go in there and hug them and remind them that although they need discipline, they are still loved and adored.

 

And please don't beat this to death in your home.  Give them a chance to move on and show you better.

Yes, there is some stress :lol: (a international move, father commuting to work 1+hr, 3/week, working from home other days, father's business trips, the Jewish holidays coming up (lots of synagogue attendance, late dinners and lunches and bedtimes, school starting again, new activities to find/begin, travelling for celebrations soon).  They aren't bad children at all (they get compliments all the time), but when more children get together (especially from outside our family), the lower their collective IQ is!!!

 

They have been quaking in their boots for a couple of days due to the school stuff.   I think I will let up starting tomorrow, but unfortunately school cannot become regular for the rest of the month.  I debated starting but they are not behaving any better because of the loosey-goosey nature of the current lives, so I started school last week.  Massive fail.

[Spy Car]

Yes, I can see how emotion-based lectures would be preferable to learning the proper use and handling of a gun and why it should be taken seriously--which is what my "gun-nut" dad taught my sisters and me. Prohibition always works so well!

 

It's called a "values education," not an "emotion-based lecture."

 

If kids are obsessed with drugs, you don't send them to the drug-dealers if you want to mitigate the situation, methinks. Enabling doesn't work so well.

 

Bill

[DarlaS]

Lastly, if the boys are having an unhealthy obsession with guns the last thing in the world I would advise doing is to send them of to "gun education classes" where they will no doubt encounter (and likely be taught by) gun-nuts. T

Gun nuts? You mean police officers and/or the DNR right? That's who teaches them around here in rural Michigan.

 

Maybe where you live it's different. :-/

[Word Nerd]

That analogy doesn't work. A gun is a tool, not an illegal substance, and hunter safety instructors are hardly drug dealers. A better analogy would be sending a water-obsessed kid to swimming lessons to learn how to swim and be in and around water correctly and safely, and under what conditions swimming is not appropriate. Education is not enabling. It teaches respect for what the child is "obsessed" with and takes away some of the mystery in a way that "xyz is bad!" training cannot.

[SKL]

I

Lastly, if the boys are having an unhealthy obsession with guns the last thing in the world I would advise doing is to send them of to "gun education classes" where they will no doubt encounter (and likely be taught by) gun-nuts. That is the worst option. Instead send them off to the in-laws for a good values education on why guns are bad.

 

I don't think the question is whether guns are good or bad (guns cannot have mens rea and do not shoot themselves off), but what is the responsible thing to do if you find one.

 

I would think that at a gun safety class, the kind of person most likely to be encountered is one who is sensible about the power of a gun and serious about safety and responsibility.

 

Someone earlier suggested asking a cop to talk to the boys.  I would be very reluctant to do that since it could work against the boys to have an encounter with the cops.  You never know what kind of legs that could grow.  I've heard of a child getting into serious trouble because he found a weapon and brought it into school and turned it in.  Thinking he'd done the right thing.  We can't control other people's reactions so I'd keep the discipline aspect of this within the family.

[Spy Car]

That analogy doesn't work. A gun is a tool, not an illegal substance, and hunter safety instructors are hardly drug dealers. A better analogy would be sending a water-obsessed kid to swimming lessons to learn how to swim and be in and around water correctly and safely, and under what conditions swimming is not appropriate. Education is not enabling. It teaches respect for what the child is "obsessed" with and takes away some of the mystery in a way that "xyz is bad!" training cannot.

 

Swimming—when used for the intended purpose—is not used to kill people and other sentient beings. The same is not true of guns. They exist to kill. 

 

Bill