The Perils of "Wannabe Cool" Christianity

[speedmom4]

I found this article from 2010 today. I guess I shouldn't be shocked that others feel the way I do. I am currently leaving the Evangelical church and returning to Catholicism. The author of this article perfectly represents my feelings especially in his final paragraph:

 

If we are interested in Christianity in any sort of serious way, it is not because it's easy or trendy or popular. It's because Jesus himself is appealing, and what he says rings true. It's because the world we inhabit is utterly phony, ephemeral, narcissistic, image-obsessed and sex-drenched—and we want an alternative. It's not because we want more of the same.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111704575355311122648100.html

 

Anyone else experiencing this in their churches?

 

Elise in NC

[Ellie]

Well, that isn't why I went back to the Catholic Church, but it is what I didn't like about the many Protestant churches which have thrown in their lots with the seeker-friendly mentality.

 

The pastor of Mr. Ellie's church has taken to saying "Pete" instead of Peter when referring to the Apostle, and last Sunday said something about getting in your grill, apparently meaning something like getting in your face. :huh:

[speedmom4]

Well, that isn't why I went back to the Catholic Church, but it is what I didn't like about the many Protestant churches which have thrown in their lots with the seeker-friendly mentality.

 

The pastor of Mr. Ellie's church has taken to saying "Pete" instead of Peter when referring to the Apostle, and last Sunday said something about getting in your grill, apparently meaning something like getting in your face. :huh:

 

I'm also not returning to Catholicism because of these issues. But I have seen the Protestant church we attended for many many years changing in the way you described as well as others. I do NOT question the intentions of the church. I think they only want to reach people for God but they are changing their methods. They may be doing more harm than good.

 

Elise on NC

[Remudamom]

Well, that isn't why I went back to the Catholic Church, but it is what I didn't like about the many Protestant churches which have thrown in their lots with the seeker-friendly mentality.

 

The pastor of Mr. Ellie's church has taken to saying "Pete" instead of Peter when referring to the Apostle, and last Sunday said something about getting in your grill, apparently meaning something like getting in your face. :huh:

 

Wow. That's would be worthy of a walk out imo. Which we did when our church went over the top silly. We got up right in the middle of it and walked out.

[jenL]

I am praying over this very issue in my church right now. I feel like trendy is what they care about vs. the true word of the Lord, and it's become very unsettling for me. I'm actually disgruntled about my pastor's actions in real life (in trying to be cool) vs. what he's attempting to teach. I'm seeing him as being hypocritical, and I'm losing respect for him as a person and as a leader. My husband is starting to share some of these thoughts (I've had issues with this pastor off & on over the 5.5 years we've been there), but we aren't sure we are ready to "start over" (as dh put it) someplace else because we really like many of the people at our church. I was ready to leave 2 years ago, but dh said it wasn't time. Things seemed to be getting better, but in the past 6 months, I feel as if we've slid further backward in order to appease the "unchurched".

 

I want a place where the TRUTH of God's word is shared; where we are expected to live that truth no matter how "uncool" it makes us, and I expect the leaders in the church to be great role models of humility, grace, and Christ. Do I want them to be perfect? No, of course not, because man is full of sin, and we will never reach perfection on this earth. I do want them to try their darndest to walk in the ways of the Lord though instead of jumping on bandwagons trying to be "hip". Why are churches so frightened to hold Christians accountable and demand that we seek a deeper life with Jesus even if that is the hardest route and out of the "norm" and most importantly, NOT COOL? Isn't that what Christ demands of us? Isn't that how God wants his people to be? It's frustrating to me that these places who are supposedly teaching and believing that the Bible is the word of God are the very places that are not modeling the sacrifice it takes to follow Christ - how UN-cool that life is because it does NOT focus on self, stuff, and personal success.

 

Ok, I am going to hop off my soapbox for now because I can feel myself getting fired up, and I need to put my boys to bed instead. :) Thank you for posting this, Elise. It couldn't have come at a better time for me.

[speedmom4]

But here's my dilemma: The cool wannabe churches are where I find the people who are spiritually on fire. The "quieter" churches seem to have spiritually dead people, or people who don't want to express their faith openly. I prefer the "quieter" less cool churches. I just wish the people in them were more on fire for the Lord and His work.

 

( Yes, I know every church isn't like this. I'm speaking generally.)

 

 

I know exactly where you are coming from! I met with a group of amazing women from our new Catholic Church who are "on fire". They take their faith very seriously. Their advice was it takes more effort to find like minded individuals but it is SO worth it. I am so happy being a part of something that isn't trendy at all. I haven't felt this spiritually fulfilled in a long time. It isn't perfect but I have respect for the faith.

 

Elise in NC

[speedmom4]

I am praying over this very issue in my church right now. I feel like trendy is what they care about vs. the true word of the Lord, and it's become very unsettling for me. I'm actually disgruntled about my pastor's actions in real life (in trying to be cool) vs. what he's attempting to teach. I'm seeing him as being hypocritical, and I'm losing respect for him as a person and as a leader. My husband is starting to share some of these thoughts (I've had issues with this pastor off & on over the 5.5 years we've been there), but we aren't sure we are ready to "start over" (as dh put it) someplace else because we really like many of the people at our church. I was ready to leave 2 years ago, but dh said it wasn't time. Things seemed to be getting better, but in the past 6 months, I feel as if we've slid further backward in order to appease the "unchurched".

 

I want a place where the TRUTH of God's word is shared; where we are expected to live that truth no matter how "uncool" it makes us, and I expect the leaders in the church to be great role models of humility, grace, and Christ. Do I want them to be perfect? No, of course not, because man is full of sin, and we will never reach perfection on this earth. I do want them to try their darndest to walk in the ways of the Lord though instead of jumping on bandwagons trying to be "hip". Why are churches so frightened to hold Christians accountable and demand that we seek a deeper life with Jesus even if that is the hardest route and out of the "norm" and most importantly, NOT COOL? Isn't that what Christ demands of us? Isn't that how God wants his people to be? It's frustrating to me that these places who are supposedly teaching and believing that the Bible is the word of God are the very places that are not modeling the sacrifice it takes to follow Christ - how UN-cool that life is because it does NOT focus on self, stuff, and personal success.

 

Ok, I am going to hop off my soapbox for now because I can feel myself getting fired up, and I need to put my boys to bed instead. :) Thank you for posting this, Elise. It couldn't have come at a better time for me.

 

 

You are so welcome! I really wasn't sure about sharing this because I didnt want to offend others. I am so happy to be back in a Chuch that doesn't make things easy so more people will come. I want to grow in The Lord not just be entertained. I've been telling my dh that I feel like our chuch has become "Disney-fied". The pastors wear cool clothes, the messages are very clever, and the worship is like a professional concert. But I found myself leaving empty. I felt like the services were "me" centered. But the Mass is Christ centered. It's so refreshing. There's nothing cool or slick about it!!! I couldn't believe it but my boys actually prefer it over the "cool" church. My eleven year-old said he likes how reverent the Mass is. I couldn't believe it!

 

Glad the article is relevant for you right now!

 

Elise in NC

[Catwoman]

The pastor of Mr. Ellie's church has taken to saying "Pete" instead of Peter when referring to the Apostle, and last Sunday said something about getting in your grill, apparently meaning something like getting in your face. :huh:

 

 

Wow. That's not cool. :ack2: That's just over-the-top stupid. :glare:

 

It sounds like the guy wants to be cool, but is too clueless to realize that he sounds like a complete moron.

[GSOchristie]

I am praying over this very issue in my church right now. I feel like trendy is what they care about vs. the true word of the Lord, and it's become very unsettling for me. I'm actually disgruntled about my pastor's actions in real life (in trying to be cool) vs. what he's attempting to teach. I'm seeing him as being hypocritical, and I'm losing respect for him as a person and as a leader. My husband is starting to share some of these thoughts (I've had issues with this pastor off & on over the 5.5 years we've been there), but we aren't sure we are ready to "start over" (as dh put it) someplace else because we really like many of the people at our church. I was ready to leave 2 years ago, but dh said it wasn't time. Things seemed to be getting better, but in the past 6 months, I feel as if we've slid further backward in order to appease the "unchurched."

 

I want a place where the TRUTH of God's word is shared; where we are expected to live that truth no matter how "uncool" it makes us, and I expect the leaders in the church to be great role models of humility, grace, and Christ. Do I want them to be perfect? No, of course not, because man is full of sin, and we will never reach perfection on this earth. I do want them to try their darndest to walk in the ways of the Lord though instead of jumping on bandwagons trying to be "hip". Why are churches so frightened to hold Christians accountable and demand that we seek a deeper life with Jesus even if that is the hardest route and out of the "norm" and most importantly, NOT COOL? Isn't that what Christ demands of us? Isn't that how God wants his people to be? It's frustrating to me that these places who are supposedly teaching and believing that the Bible is the word of God are the very places that are not modeling the sacrifice it takes to follow Christ - how UN-cool that life is because it does NOT focus on self, stuff, and personal success.

 

 

 

I could have written this, only we have been at our church 4.5 years. We are reformed, and it's difficult to find a church that is both fully seeking God with all their hearts AND loving the lost with all they have. We have attended a new church plant for the past few weeks and I'm cautiously optimistic. We are leaving our current church, no matter what, because I can't stand the focus of the messages always about how to bring people in, and NEVER about the true glory of God. I few years ago it was an even split, now it's so man-focused :(.

[milovany]

We left the protestant church a few years ago, and some of these issues were part of the impetus (although at the time we really didn't know/understand why). I do know that many of my friends and family members who attend these types of churches love God with all they've got and all they know and all they are. Many of them are far better Christians than I am. For us, and our longings, though, we had never been exposed to historical Christianity before, but once we were, we rushed into its arms. It was then that we realized we didn't like an ever-changing church that tried to be different every week. Liturgy that's 1600 years old?? Cool! Give me some of that old-time religion. LOL. In finding Christianity's roots, we also found everything else we'd longed for so it's been a good fit. (We're now Eastern Orthodox, by the way.)

[speedmom4]

We left the protestant church a few years ago, and some of these issues were part of the impetus (although at the time we really didn't know/understand why). I do know that many of my friends and family members who attend these types of churches love God with all they've got and all they know and all they are. Many of them are far better Christians than I am. For us, and our longings, though, we had never been exposed to historical Christianity before, but once we were, we rushed into its arms. It was then that we realized we didn't like an ever-changing church that tried to be different every week. Liturgy that's 1600 years old?? Cool! Give me some of that old-time religion. LOL. In finding Christianity's roots, we also found everything else we'd longed for so it's been a good fit. (We're now Eastern Orthodox, by the way.)

 

Yes, yes, yes!!!

 

So many of the people we went to church with love God and I don't question their faith at all. They are truly genuine people.

 

I began to wonder why the church needed to be so "relevant". If the Word (an ancient text) is completely relevant and hasn't changed then why in the world does the church need to change so much? It felt that our Protestant chuch kept leading the change to be "cool" to be able to reach the world. It didn't line up with my heart and beliefs anymore.

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Elise in NC

[justamouse]

We left for the same reasons. This Vigil is my first year anniversary.

 

But here's my dilemma: The cool wannabe churches are where I find the people who are spiritually on fire. The "quieter" churches seem to have spiritually dead people, or people who don't want to express their faith openly. I prefer the "quieter" less cool churches. I just wish the people in them were more on fire for the Lord and His work.

 

( Yes, I know every church isn't like this. I'm speaking generally.)

 

My traditional parish is on fire, completely. And it's not even a Charismatic Catholic parish, those we have a few of those, too, in our county and they are also on fire in the more open way you're speaking of. :D So it's not that the 'quiet' traditional ones are less passionate, it's just that they see the beauty of tradition as part of the spiritual experience itself.

[Crimson Wife]

I keep seeing signs around for churches with names that sound like some nightclub ("The Edge"). :rolleyes: My personal preference is for a church to be named after Christ, Mary, the angels, a saint, etc. or just plain ____ [denomination] Church. I don't really mind something like "Hope Center" or "The Vineyard" because the reference to Christianity is still there even if it's more subtle. But these hipster names that have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity just leave me :ack2:

[Crimson Wife]

Guess I should've read the linked article first- it contained references to a church named "Mosaic" and one named "Liquid" :ack2: :ack2: :ack2:

[Joker]

But here's my dilemma: The cool wannabe churches are where I find the people who are spiritually on fire. The "quieter" churches seem to have spiritually dead people, or people who don't want to express their faith openly. I prefer the "quieter" less cool churches. I just wish the people in them were more on fire for the Lord and His work.

 

( Yes, I know every church isn't like this. I'm speaking generally.)

 

Our experience has been the opposite. The 'cool' churches had people who appeared to be spiritually on fire but were very different outside of church. We've been attending a Catholic church since December and, while it is calmer (which we like), those attending are the same in and out of church. They are very much on fire.

 

OP, one of the reasons we started trying the Catholic church was that those cool churches were turning my oldest dd far away from organized religion. I was very afraid they would end up turning her away from her faith in the end. Where we're at now has been healing to her and I'm glad we made the switch when we did.

[milovany]

I began to wonder why the church needed to be so "relevant". If the Word (an ancient text) is completely relevant and hasn't changed then why in the world does the church need to change so much? It felt that our Protestant chuch kept leading the change to be "cool" to be able to reach the world. It didn't line up with my heart and beliefs anymore.

 

The only thing I'd quibble about is that Christ is The Word that hasn't changed (although I know the Bible can also be referred to as "the word," it's kind of lower-case w not uppercase W, if that makes sense). I think it's because Christ is unchanging that the Church (His body) doesn't need to feel compelled to change with the times. The Bible is a wonderful gift from God to be sure (!), but it wasn't always part of the Church, right? I can envision the faith as more alive and life-giving when I think of its foundation as a God-person moreso than text, I guess.

[Ottakee]

We are facing some of that in our search for a new church.

 

Our previous church (I was there for 27 years, dh for 22) now has the youth group named THE REBELLION. That did not sit well with us at all.

 

We are struggling between a larger church that has a more contemporary service and a small more traditional church that is farther away.

[SarahW]

This reminds me of something that a friend on facebook posted a few months ago:

 

Top 10 reasons our kids leave church: http://marc5solas.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/top-10-reasons-our-kids-leave-church/

 

It's a little harsh, but generally true, ime. I'm in the middle of a tension in my church because so many of the long-time members think that "youth outreach" means having a game room with a few board games, an air hockey set, and a TV - and they don't know why there is no 2nd or 3rd generation families in the church.

 

HELLOOOO!!!! Why would they go to church for that stuff when they've got better stuff at home and their own friends!!!!

 

What's wrong with church being just a place to worship God? Do we think that's not good enough? Or are we embarrassed by it?

[jenL]

I love that I am not alone in this! Everyone's insight has given me more to pray over. Thank you!!!

 

I really love God in ways I never knew that I could, and I want to grow deeper toward Him, with Him, and for Him. I wish that wasn't such a foreign concept in today's churches. How can we bring more people to Christ if we cannot and are not living it out always? As someone mentioned, I want people who are on fire all of the time: people who convict me, hold me accountable, and propel me toward Christ in and out of church not just for show inside of the building. I don't want politically correct rhetoric to appease new people. :glare:

[Ellie]

But here's my dilemma: The cool wannabe churches are where I find the people who are spiritually on fire. The "quieter" churches seem to have spiritually dead people, or people who don't want to express their faith openly. I prefer the "quieter" less cool churches. I just wish the people in them were more on fire for the Lord and His work.

 

( Yes, I know every church isn't like this. I'm speaking generally.)

 

This was not my experience at all. There were some spiritually on-fire people, but it was not uncommon for them to also be...how can I say this...not well versed in basic Christian doctrine. Mr. Ellie and I attended an Alpha class, which the pastor strongly encouraged all church members to attend; Mr. Ellie and I even took the training to be leaders, but truly, we didn't learn anything new in those classes. They were very, very basic, things that we had learned 30 years before. And we were surprised at the number of people who took the class with us and were so excited about what they were learning, people we had known for over 10 years, in church, who should have known those things.

 

And the people we had known in the "quieter" churches loved the Lord and were living their faith and witnessing, who knew their faith and were eager to dig deeper all the time, who wanted more of God.

[Flowing Brook]

And we were saying http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/26/alabama-church-trip-for-me-billboard-draws-attention/

This is ridiculous!!

[speedmom4]

And we were saying http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/26/alabama-church-trip-for-me-billboard-draws-attention/

This is ridiculous!!

 

In conflicted about this situation. I love the idea of putting a billboard for a church at a strip club. Part of me feels that shock value may be the only thing that gets the attention of men going into that establishment. The message is definitely good maybe not the delivery.

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Elise in NC

[JumpyTheFrog]

Top 10 reasons our kids leave church: http://marc5solas.wo...s-leave-church/

 

I agree with the one about "deistic moralism." I think many churches focus so much on "do this/don't do this" that it is very easy for people to get the idea that they need to do those things to prove they are Christians. Very few people seem to understand that the fruits of the Spirit will be the result God's work in us. They just think, "Oh, I need to do all these things to improve XYZ fruit."

 

I suppose, in a way, it's like they need to make their own fruit and glue it on, instead of letting God work in them to grow the fruit Himself.

[caroljenn]

You are so welcome! I really wasn't sure about sharing this because I didnt want to offend others. I am so happy to be back in a Chuch that doesn't make things easy so more people will come. I want to grow in The Lord not just be entertained. I've been telling my dh that I feel like our chuch has become "Disney-fied". The pastors wear cool clothes, the messages are very clever, and the worship is like a professional concert. But I found myself leaving empty. I felt like the services were "me" centered. But the Mass is Christ centered. It's so refreshing. There's nothing cool or slick about it!!! I couldn't believe it but my boys actually prefer it over the "cool" church. My eleven year-old said he likes how reverent the Mass is. I couldn't believe it!

 

Glad the article is relevant for you right now!

 

Elise in NC

 

This is our church. Our pastor says all the time that we "aren't going to like what I'm about to say..." or "Ushers- guard the doors" and then he proceeds to give Biblical truth that usually flies completely in the face of popular, politically correct thinking. We love it. Our church has grown and grown, and I think it's because our pastor just tells it like it is. He isn't trying to please anybody but God, and repeatedly tells us to live our lives the same way. There are many many "leaders" in the Christian community who aren't leaders at all but followers of the world. Very sad- they are leading thousands and thousands of people astray.

 

We also feel very blessed to have found the right church for us.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Another thought to consider:

 

In many churches, the sermon is the "big event" of the service. However, I don't think sermons tend to be very effective in helping people in their walk with Jesus. Often, they don't even point to Jesus much. In a world of iPods, if the sermon is the main reason to go to church, why bother? We can just download it and listen at home.

 

I think the main reason to go to church is for believers to mutually edify and encourage each other. The New Testament talks about everyone bringing a song, hymn, revelation, or a teaching. It wasn't a passive audience listening to a long sermon. It was interactive. We've lost that and we've lost the community that goes with it. Instead, we have groups of people who don't (or barely) know each other sit passively watching a man preach. How is that helping people?

 

I think young adults are looking for a sense of community and aren't getting it at church.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Our pastor says all the time that we "aren't going to like what I'm about to say..." or "Ushers- guard the doors" and then he proceeds to give Biblical truth that usually flies completely in the face of popular, politically correct thinking. We love it. Our church has grown and grown, and I think it's because our pastor just tells it like it is. He isn't trying to please anybody but God, and repeatedly tells us to live our lives the same way.

 

I'm glad you have a church you like.

 

However, I should point out that there are people out there with big enough followings that make their living off teaching others un-popular, politically incorrect doctrine. Some of these people brag and take pride in how horrified other Christians are at their teachings. People like Michael Pearl come to mind. I'm not saying your pastor is anything like him. But there are people out there who are attracted to all sorts of ridiculous ideas because they tend to be counter-cultural themselves.

 

My former church was filled with people attracted to "politically incorrect" doctrines peddled by people "just telling it like it is." Unfortunately, these doctrines loaded people down with legalism. And the people influencing them were making nice livings by being "people pleasers" to people disgusted by "compromising people pleasers." (I hope that made sense to some of you.)

 

Again, I have no idea what your church is like. I just wanted to point out that the general situation is even more messed up than you thought.

[speedmom4]

This reminds me of something that a friend on facebook posted a few months ago:

 

Top 10 reasons our kids leave church: http://marc5solas.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/top-10-reasons-our-kids-leave-church/

 

It's a little harsh, but generally true, ime. I'm in the middle of a tension in my church because so many of the long-time members think that "youth outreach" means having a game room with a few board games, an air hockey set, and a TV - and they don't know why there is no 2nd or 3rd generation families in the church.

 

HELLOOOO!!!! Why would they go to church for that stuff when they've got better stuff at home and their own friends!!!!

 

What's wrong with church being just a place to worship God? Do we think that's not good enough? Or are we embarrassed by it?

 

Wow. The link you copied is amazing. I'm going to bookmark it so I can come back and read it again. I'm sending it to my husband. I might have to get really radical and post it to my FB. That should stir up the hornet's nest!!

 

Thank you so much for sharing!

 

Elise in NC

[I.Dup.]

OP, you are not alone. We walked out of a Protestant church during a disgusting, irreverent, stupid Easter service 3 years ago and threw ourselves into the Catholic Church after that. We have never looked back, we could never go back to that.

[caroljenn]

I'm glad you have a church you like.

 

However, I should point out that there are people out there with big enough followings that make their living off teaching others un-popular, politically incorrect doctrine. Some of these people brag and take pride in how horrified other Christians are at their teachings. People like Michael Pearl come to mind. I'm not saying your pastor is anything like him. But there are people out there who are attracted to all sorts of ridiculous ideas because they tend to be counter-cultural themselves.

 

My former church was filled with people attracted to "politically incorrect" doctrines peddled by people "just telling it like it is." Unfortunately, these doctrines loaded people down with legalism. And the people influencing them were making nice livings by being "people pleasers" to people disgusted by "compromising people pleasers." (I hope that made sense to some of you.)

 

Again, I have no idea what your church is like. I just wanted to point out that the general situation is even more messed up than you thought.

 

I agree that there are many pastors out there that are not doing the right thing. I am blessed to NOT be in a church like that. Our pastor pretty much shows us a passage of scripture (not just a verse) and we come to a conclusion about what it says. Usually God's intent is pretty clear if you read the whole passage and take it in context.

 

I had never heard of Michael Pearl until I read your post. I read his statement of faith and no alarm bells went off - I honestly don't know anything about him.

[butterflymommy]

Actually this all has its roots in the Jesus Movement, which was the progenitor of many mega-churches, and of christian rock as we know it today. Keith Green, for instance, came from the Jesus Movement. So did less than admirable churches like the Children of God.

 

The wiki article on the Jesus Movement is here:

 

http://en.wikipedia..../Jesus_movement

 

I sometimes think we are undergoing a new Jesus Movement where evangelical churches (or maybe even most churches) grapple with technology and how to integrate it-- or not-- in their mission, and how to view technology and "the cloud" in general terms.

 

So I think like the 1960s movement we will get some very good and some very bad out of this. People will judge the tree by the fruit and what is good will hopefully prevail.

 

I write all this as someone with no exact religious affiliation, but if I were going to be a practicing christian I would probably choose Orthodoxy or traditional Catholicism, because I like tradition and formal ritual. I do like some christian rock though, and adore keith green's music. So anyway, take my opinion for what it's worth.

[speedmom4]

Another thought to consider:

 

In many churches, the sermon is the "big event" of the service. However, I don't think sermons tend to be very effective in helping people in their walk with Jesus. Often, they don't even point to Jesus much. In a world of iPods, if the sermon is the main reason to go to church, why bother? We can just download it and listen at home.

 

I think the main reason to go to church is for believers to mutually edify and encourage each other. The New Testament talks about everyone bringing a song, hymn, revelation, or a teaching. It wasn't a passive audience listening to a long sermon. It was interactive. We've lost that and we've lost the community that goes with it. Instead, we have groups of people who don't (or barely) know each other sit passively watching a man preach. How is that helping people?

 

I think young adults are looking for a sense of community and aren't getting it at church.

 

This is exactly how I began to feel. The service was centered on the worship team and the pastor. They are right out in front. There isn't even a cross or an altar. Just a stage. The messages felt like a spiritual Oprah show. We were always entertained and learned a little something about how to live better lives. Each week we got a note sheet that looked a bit like a simplified workbook page with blanks to fill in. Each word would begin with the same letter, like Spirit, sanctification, salvation, service, etc.

 

I love that at Mass no person is the center. The altar and crucifix are at the center. The choir is off to the side. There are no "stars". The priest isn't there to entertain us. He's there to administer a sacrament. He's not wearing skinny jeans and a plaid shirt with his Bible app on his iPhone.

 

I'm so encouraged to hear so many others are pondering these things.

 

Elise in NC

[momtokea]

The Catholic church (and the Orthodox church) do not need to resort to gimmicks to attract people. We have Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

What could be more awesome than that??

[Dustybug]

This makes me genuinely appreciate our church so much more. There is no sugar coating, no "dressing up," no trying to appeal to the world around us by watering down our message. While I certainly have issues with some members who cross over into the legalistic side, I've always enjoyed that our Pastor does not shy away from teaching sound biblical doctrine and truth.

 

My FIL is also a preacher and he always says, "if you never get your toes stepped on, you are in the wrong church."

[Ellie]

Actually this all has its roots in the Jesus Movement, which was the progenitor of many mega-churches, and of christian rock as we know it today. Keith Green, for instance, came from the Jesus Movement. So did less than admirable churches like the Children of God.

 

The wiki article on the Jesus Movement is here:

 

http://en.wikipedia..../Jesus_movement

 

I sometimes think we are undergoing a new Jesus Movement where evangelical churches (or maybe even most churches) grapple with technology and how to integrate it-- or not-- in their mission, and how to view technology and "the cloud" in general terms.

 

So I think like the 1960s movement we will get some very good and some very bad out of this. People will judge the tree by the fruit and what is good will hopefully prevail.

 

I write all this as someone with no exact religious affiliation, but if I were going to be a practicing christian I would probably choose Orthodoxy or traditional Catholicism, because I like tradition and formal ritual. I do like some christian rock though, and adore keith green's music. So anyway, take my opinion for what it's worth.

 

 

Oh, as a member of the Jesus Movement, I'd have to disagree to some extent. We Jesus Movement people LOVED Jesus. We sang Scripture, and searched the Scriptures diligently to find the Truth. Maranatha Music was Jesus Movement, and Bullfrogs and Butterflies, and Children of the Day, and Leon Patillo, and Carman.

 

There is nothing wrong with a megachurch. It's the seeker-friendly, purpose-driven carp that's the problem. I was saved at a megachurch in 1974, before the term "megachurch" had been invented. The seeker-friendly mentality can be found in churches of all sizes, not just in megachurches. We left a little bitty church when a new pastor came in with seeker-friendly ideas. In fact, almost everyone left the church; last I heard, there were only four or five people in regular attendance. And the purpose-driven carp gets its fuel from Barna Polls, the result of which is churches removing "church" and denominational labels from church names, and pastors wearing polo shirts, and no choirs, and loud, rocky music and screens on the walls with music lyrics so people don't have to be distracted by having to actually hold books in their hands when they sing, and scriptures on the wall so people don't actually have to hold their Bibles to read....GAH.

[Joanne]

. It's because the world we inhabit is utterly phony, ephemeral, narcissistic, image-obsessed and sex-drenched—and we want an alternative. It's not because we want more of the same.

 

 

I don't find the "world" like that at all.

 

For the most part, I find the world I am aware of relatively kind, courteous, family oriented, productive.

 

I find most people indulge in something silly, superficial, trendy.......but typically have a lighthearted relationship to it.

 

And I don't bring the agenda to "sex drenched" that many Christain believers do, so I see evidence of sexual energy with less negative assumption.

[Stellalarella]

We have recently started fellowshipping with a group of believers who have a very simple service with teaching and a period of dialogue about the text, singing songs, The Lord's Supper, a time of prayer in small groups and a shared communally-provided breakfast. Though we loved (and still love) many brothers and sisters in Christ in our previous church, we left behind inescapably loud music, 40 minute one-sided video preaching, a general family separation so that children would go to their children's service and not "big church" and then we were still separated as a family when we went to our different areas to volunteer, a cafe and other "community" events that we could not afford, integrated media communications to visually tie together the sermon series, and a complicated bar code registry system that we had to deal with to scan our children into their children's service.

 

It was like having gourmet food that was too rich to eat on a continual basis. The process of eating it and enjoying it became so complicated that all I really craved was a simple bowl of nourishing soup.

 

I wanted to hear God and his admonition to listen to his Son. And I wanted to belong. And I wanted to be together as a family. And right now, that's all I'm wanting, so the bowl of simple soup fills me up enough and I have some extra to share.

[milovany]

I don't find the "world" like that at all.

 

For the most part, I find the world I am aware of relatively kind, courteous, family oriented, productive.

 

I would agree with this. Most people I know -- in the church and out -- are nice, genuine, thoughtful, and kind. I think it's part of our original human nature to want to love and bless people, and to enjoy life in a peaceful, respectful way. We all -- in the church and out -- do selfish things, say mean words, think unkind thoughts and the like from time to time. We all need forgiveness and healing. Most people I know press on, purposing to be nice, to be thoughtful, to be generous. I have numerous friends who don't share my religious convictions who do this so much better than I.

[Joanne]

I would agree with this. Most people I know -- in the church and out -- are nice, genuine, thoughtful, and kind. I think it's part of our original human nature to want to love and bless people, and to enjoy life in a peaceful, respectful way. We all -- in the church and out -- do selfish things, say mean words, think unkind thoughts and the like from time to time. We all need forgiveness and healing. Most people I know press on, purposing to be nice, to be thoughtful, to be generous. I have numerous friends who don't share my religious convictions who do this so much better than I.

 

Thank you for getting my perspective and posting your understanding.

 

My own personal experience is that the world seemed kinder, more principled, less superficial and a larger percentage of it "good" as I have gotten older and my own understanding of spirituality has changed.

[Heather in Neverland]

I totally agree. We also left the trendy church movement for all of the above reasons and more.

[Elinor Everywhere]

Another thought to consider:

 

In many churches, the sermon is the "big event" of the service. However, I don't think sermons tend to be very effective in helping people in their walk with Jesus. Often, they don't even point to Jesus much. In a world of iPods, if the sermon is the main reason to go to church, why bother? We can just download it and listen at home.

 

I think the main reason to go to church is for believers to mutually edify and encourage each other. The New Testament talks about everyone bringing a song, hymn, revelation, or a teaching. It wasn't a passive audience listening to a long sermon. It was interactive. We've lost that and we've lost the community that goes with it. Instead, we have groups of people who don't (or barely) know each other sit passively watching a man preach. How is that helping people?

 

I think young adults are looking for a sense of community and aren't getting it at church.

 

As one who has recently returned the fold of a liturgical service (Anglican, now), I LOVE (LOVE, in case you didn't get that) this post. My dh is skeptical and was in a wonderful, bible-based, spiritually spot-on church for 35 years (Calvary Chapel - huge respect for them!), and now I'm attending this Anglican Church and he's hanging in there. He doesn't "get" what you write, but to me it makes SUCH a difference.

 

I'm saving this, in the hopes I can express the thoughts as well as you.

[JenniferB]

"Why are churches so frightened to hold Christians accountable and demand that we seek a deeper life with Jesus even if that is the hardest route and out of the "norm" and most importantly, NOT COOL? Isn't that what Christ demands of us? Isn't that how God wants his people to be?"

 

When I encountered Orthodox Christianity I was astonished at the "hard core Christianity" I witnessed both in present day Orthodox Christians and the ones who have gone before us and ran the race to win: martyrs (from first century to 20th century modern martyrs), miracle/wonder-workers, humble priests and bishops, ascetics, faithful lay people who pray and fast and read Scripture daily and sing hymns and pray all day long, those who give generously to the poor, the persecuted, and on and on and on.

 

The worship is the most beautiful, reverent, Christ centered worship that even my wildest imagination couldn't conjure up before I attended my first service. The choir is in the back off to the side and the alter is front and center. The Gospel Book is walked out of the alter in reverent procession and adorned beautifully. The Holy Communion is also processed reverently and held in a beautiful chalice. The whole service (besides the sermon) is sung in a beautiful chant that takes your mind and heart off earthly cares and puts you right into The Kingdom. The sermon is a small focus, as the service centers around the Gospel Reading and The Eucharist, not the priest or the choir.

 

Come and see - all are welcome.

 

[Shamzanne]

I love this post, too. I left my evangelical church to find a body with which I can worship without all the little cynical thoughts running through my head. I thank God I found it! There is an odd little book that helped me process my issues with church as it was and figure out what I was looking for. It is actually online (and printable) for free. It is called Outward Bound by Vernard Eller. The first three chapters especially were life-altering.

[LisaKinVA]

"Why are churches so frightened to hold Christians accountable and demand that we seek a deeper life with Jesus even if that is the hardest route and out of the "norm" and most importantly, NOT COOL? Isn't that what Christ demands of us? Isn't that how God wants his people to be?"

 

I'm going to flip this just a bit...

 

Why are Christians so frightened to hold their leaders accountable, and demand that they help us seek a deeper life with Jesus...? Why are we afraid to question our leaders, voice the things that trouble us, go "against" the prevailing church "thought?"

 

How many Christians leave a church and never tell the pastor/leaders/church members why?

 

Iron sharpens iron...but we raise our kids (general you of Christians, not specific you...as WTM Christians seem to be a bit different) to not ask questions, to search the scriptures to see if what we are being taught is true. Heck, most churches I've been in don't teach kids how to question and search the scriptures (how to think), they simply tell them what to think. They aren't asked to explore why something is true...they are simply told it is true. If we wish to seek the Truth, if we want to have a deeper, richer, more fully understood picture of who God is, it requires us to get our hands dirty, ask questions, and seek the answers ourselves.

 

IMO, this is how the church is failing...this is why people never get beyond needing that emotional "high" they crave...they haven't learned that there is something beyond feeling good, a steady, ever-present faith, that lives without fear of being challenged...a faith that sustains even through difficult times, a questioning faith that knows how to seek the answers...and to trust that the answers will come.

[Onceuponatime]

Off topic: Yesterday I saw nothing but the title and the first post of this thread, I didn't even click on the link. Last night I dreamed that I was in church and a tall, lanky man stood up to give announcements. He had on a red trench coat, celebrity sunglasses, and Elvis style hair. He strikes a pose. A lady in front of me yells, "Dude looks good!" An elderly lady gets up and walks out with her grandson. I slunk down in my seat and buried my head in my hands.

 

When I woke up, I knew this thread was responsible. Now I'm off to read it all the way through.

[justamouse]

This reminds me of something that a friend on facebook posted a few months ago:

 

Top 10 reasons our kids leave church: http://marc5solas.wo...s-leave-church/

 

It's a little harsh, but generally true, ime. I'm in the middle of a tension in my church because so many of the long-time members think that "youth outreach" means having a game room with a few board games, an air hockey set, and a TV - and they don't know why there is no 2nd or 3rd generation families in the church.

 

HELLOOOO!!!! Why would they go to church for that stuff when they've got better stuff at home and their own friends!!!!

 

What's wrong with church being just a place to worship God? Do we think that's not good enough? Or are we embarrassed by it?

 

I thought I had read that previously, so skipped over your link the first time I read the thread--this time I clicked and I hadn't read it previously and WOW, that's a fantastic blog post.

 

He's very close to being Catholic.

[justamouse]

I don't find the "world" like that at all.

 

For the most part, I find the world I am aware of relatively kind, courteous, family oriented, productive.

 

I find most people indulge in something silly, superficial, trendy.......but typically have a lighthearted relationship to it.

 

And I don't bring the agenda to "sex drenched" that many Christain believers do, so I see evidence of sexual energy with less negative assumption.

 

I don't think the world is evil, or bad, actually God calls His creation good (to believe that creation is bad by the fact of its material make up is actually a heresy of Gnosticisim).

 

I think that some of us (perhaps the more introverted?) are particularly sensitive to how loud the world shouts, or even screams, all the time, so that is how we perceive it. Especially if you are around media.

 

Thank you for getting my perspective and posting your understanding.

 

My own personal experience is that the world seemed kinder, more principled, less superficial and a larger percentage of it "good" as I have gotten older and my own understanding of spirituality has changed.

 

That --pervading sense? that things out there are evil --less kind, less principled, superficial or "bad" is not found within Catholicism. I mean, I'm sure that there are some sour grapes, but that would be more of the person's own personality. It's not taught within the church, it's more of a Protestant thing with its roots in Calvinism.

[Chris in VA]

This is exactly how I began to feel. The service was centered on the worship team and the pastor. They are right out in front. There isn't even a cross or an altar. Just a stage. The messages felt like a spiritual Oprah show. We were always entertained and learned a little something about how to live better lives. Each week we got a note sheet that looked a bit like a simplified workbook page with blanks to fill in. Each word would begin with the same letter, like Spirit, sanctification, salvation, service, etc.

 

I love that at Mass no person is the center. The altar and crucifix are at the center. The choir is off to the side. There are no "stars". The priest isn't there to entertain us. He's there to administer a sacrament. He's not wearing skinny jeans and a plaid shirt with his Bible app on his iPhone.

 

I'm so encouraged to hear so many others are pondering these things.

 

Elise in NC

 

To the bolded--

 

Oh, yes indeed, one Person is at the center--the One who should be!

 

But IKWYM.

[Chris in VA]

I don't think the world is evil, or bad, actually God calls His creation good (to believe that creation is bad by the fact of its material make up is actually a heresy of Gnosticisim).

 

I think that some of us (perhaps the more introverted?) are particularly sensitive to how loud the world shouts, or even screams, all the time, so that is how we perceive it. Especially if you are around media.

 

 

I think she's saying the world is "fallen." That's different than the gnostic idea of the world/creation being "bad."

[justamouse]

I think she's saying the world is "fallen." That's different than the gnostic idea of the world/creation being "bad."

 

I know she doesn't think that--I'm just saying that the teaching of the world being evil is pervasive in many of those types of churches.

 

 

From New Advent

The Gnostics, it is true, borrowed their terminology almost entirely from existing religions, but they only used it to illustrate their great idea of the essential evil of this present existence and the duty to escape it by the help of magic spells and a superhuman Saviour. Whatever they borrowed, this pessimism they did not borrow — not from Greek thought, which was a joyous acknowledgment of and homage to the beautiful and noble in this world, with a studied disregard of the element of sorrow; not fromEgyptian thought, which did not allow its elaborate speculations on retribution and judgment in the netherworld to cast a gloom on this present existence, but considered theuniverse created or evolved under the presiding wisdom of Thoth; not from Iranian thought, which held to the absolute supremacy of Ahura Mazda and only allowed Ahriman a subordinate share in the creation, or rather counter-creation, of the world; not from Indian Brahminic thought, which was Pantheism pure and simple, or God dwelling in, nay identified with, the universe, rather than the Universe existing as the contradictory of God; not, lastly, from Semitic thought, for Semitic religions were strangely reticent as to the fate of the soul after death, and saw all practical wisdom in the worship of Baal, or Marduk, or Assur, or Hadad, that they might live long on this earth.

 

This utter pessimism, bemoaning the existence of the whole universe as a corruption and a calamity, with a feverish craving to be freed from the body of this death and a mad hope that, if we only knew, we could by some mystic words undo the cursed spell of this existence — this is the foundation of all Gnostic thought. It has the same parent-soil as Buddhism; but Buddhism is ethical, it endeavours to obtain its end by the extinction of all desire; Gnosticism is pseudo-intellectual, and trusts exclusively to magical knowledge. Moreover, Gnosticism, placed in other historical surroundings, developed from the first on other lines than Buddhism.

 

my bold

[TravelingChris]

Every few months we have a thread like this. Seeker churches are awful so lets do Catholic or Orthodox. Sometimes I ignore the threads but not always. I don't go to these seeker type churches. Dh and I left the Catholic Church because the church we were attending had the priest rambling about Sandanistas and soap operas (and not using them as examples for some Godly point, just rambling), and the congregation would only mumble the hymns and prayers, WE felt like we were in a spiritually dead place. That was about 27 years ago and we have never regretted leaving the Catholic church.

 

Anyway, I go to a evangelical church that is nothing like what the above posts describe. No silliness, no legalism, and lots of two generation and three generation families, along with new members continually joining We have all ages at our services, though we do have a nursery for those who want that. There are no separate teen services or other ways of excluding people. Our name in normal and no one would be confused about what we are. There isn't anything going onlike what is described in those articles. Maybe that is why the college kids all come back and many who grow up in our church and stay in the area, marry and keep coming to church.