Steubenville? And being the mother of a boy

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I honestly don't see why not. Personally, I just eat store-bought cupcakes and do vodka shots on the side. I'm not big on baking. :tongue_smilie:

 

OP - I have to go put the kids to bed, but I promise to be back with something a bit more substantial than discussing liquor and cupcakes. :p

 

 

http://pinterest.com/pin/143622675586864926/ Cake shots!

[8circles]

I just can't come to a place where lack of "sensibility" and violence to/apathy about others is discussed as if they are equal parts to the problem. I just can't. What the teen boys did to that girl & the apathy of the witnesses combined with the lack of remorse afterward & the use of social media to continue the torture is just beyond ... it's just... I have no words. Discuss "sensibility" another time. We have way bigger problems here which get minimized when combined with "sensibility".

 

This thread makes me want to cry.

[nmoira]

This was a hard article for me to read for a number of reasons. I'm still a little angry? Not sure what to call it. But it contains information I did not know.

 

 

Steubenville rapists can be saved

For all the justified outrage at the Steubenville offenders, rehab can and does work. Their lives are not "over"

 

 

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/21/how_to_save_a_teenage_rapist/

[jeninok]

I was doing those things in high school, but I had a great group of girls, and really great guy friends as well. It just would not have happened. There was not much dating within the circle of friends, and we all watched out for each other in all situations. That doesn't mean we weren't lucky, and didn't put ourselves at risk...we did. And I look back in retrospect and shudder.

 

I just think it is really important we don't reduce rape to an insensible choice, or bad judgement. It really isn't that wishy washy, and we do our boys a discredit if we think they can't understand the nuance.

 

Rape also isn't really about se**ual pleasure, I am sure being football big shots, those boys would not have had a problem finding a willing partner that night. They chose instead to do unspeakably vile things.

[Koerarmoca]

I don't know if anyone saw the video of the incident. It was highly disturbing. It would very much skew your "side". As a former resident I can say they WAY idolize the football team. EVERY business has a Big Red banner in the window, The stadium likely cost more than they spent on education last year (its newly bulit). We lived on the "footpath" to the stadium and we would watch the parade so to speak of vulgar mouthed, rude, football players dressed up in their Jerseys walk to the games. Then the after parties usually turned into block parties on "the hill" (aka labell view) Cops would patrol the street but NEVER do a thing about the drinking, drugs or loudness. It was quite awful. A football player even smashed the window to the local store and the store owner wouldn't even report it because "he was a football player" (I was a witness)

 

It may sound like I hate the city but I will say AMAZING homeschool community and a HUGE one too, assuming many have a distaste for the PS.. with reason.

[8circles]

Trigger and harsh adult content warning, this is a very well cited post, but it doesn't white wash any of it, and ya, could be super triggery.

 

http://rantagainstth...t-rape-culture/

 

 

I don't think it's super-triggery. It's the truth & it's ugly.

[I.Dup.]

 

Yeah it's really not about that. I'm SURE they could find some willing girls under less stupid circumstances.

 

 

I do think the combination of sexual activities combined with power, thrill, taboo can be an especially dangerous one. It's not JUST about sex but sex is definitely a part of what makes things like this so common. If it was just about humiliating someone I don't think nearly as many boys & men would be involved in rapes and sexual crimes. They clearly get something out of it also.

[jeninok]

I assume it was pre-verdict, when he still very much thought this was all going to go away.

[SKL]

 

It is not just the actions of the boys who did the acts that is so appalling, but that we live in a culture where taking advantage of vulnerable people is so status quo, and women and girls are seen as lesser, as property, and as something to be controlled in order to be enjoyed that is the real problem.

 

 

 

These things happen to boys too (at the hands of both males and females), but boys are all the more ashamed to complain about it, so they mostly don't.

[jeninok]

 

These things happen to boys too (at the hands of both males and females), but boys are all the more ashamed to complain about it, so they mostly don't.

 

 

 

You are right, boys are all too often the victim of sexual abuse and being taken advantage of. It is also too often brushed aside when it happens by adult females to younger men because all too often people assume that sex doesn't have the same emotional consequences for males as it does for females. Which is yet another twisted facet of society's screwed up views of it all.

[SKL]

I'm so glad we didn't have the social media when I was a teen that we have now. I can only imagine the horror that middle and high school kids go through because of it.

 

 

Yes, and I hope that when my kids are old enough to understand, I'll remember to tell them frequently that if they do these things (go to a party and drink etc.), there WILL be a video of them circulating the next day. I hope I'll be able to scare them enough that they don't put themselves into these kinds of situations.

 

You'd think that kids would have figured that out by now, though, wouldn't you?

 

Anyway, another reminder as a parent (of girls) to take nothing for granted.

[SKL]

 

 

I don't see why they would be more ashamed to complain. I'm sure girls feel plenty of shame.

 

 

Boys are supposed to want it (from females).

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

.........As a teen I never trusted people who would offer alcohol to an underage person. I would never put myself in that position but walk the other way. I hope my kids will do the same. Because there is no way I want them trusting their "friends" to watch out for them when they themselves have lost the capacity to do so. No way. Though I appreciate all this talk about "my kid should step in to help another person," the fact is that if my kid is acting sensibly, she is not there in the first place....

 

 

:iagree: :iagree: I was the kind of teen that would have absolutely said and done something, but I would never have been invited (let alone attended.) Sadly for the victims, that is likely to be true of all the "good kids."

[jeninok]

I do think the combination of sexual activities combined with power, thrill, taboo can be an especially dangerous one. It's not JUST about sex but sex is definitely a part of what makes things like this so common. If it was just about humiliating someone I don't think nearly as many boys & men would be involved in rapes and sexual crimes. They clearly get something out of it also.

 

 

Power, thrill and taboo are all highly exciting, they can all also be safely explored within consensual adult relations without hurting anybody. Maybe if we were more honest with our young adults about the full scope of possibility and what is truly normal there wouldn't be so much damaging behavior.

 

Not that I expect teenagers to be able to really explore those boundaries with their relationships, but given time and maturity, and teaching them to be honest as well as teaching the ability to discuss embarassing things, maybe more people would have safe healthy fulfilled relationships of all kinds.

[SKL]

 

Although they are probably more likely to be raped by other males. How exactly does a female rape a male? Not saying a female can't do unwanted things to a male, but certain things would be pretty difficult physically speaking.

 

Well, so a couple of teen girls lure in the younger / smaller neighbor boy and ply him with alcohol. How hard is it for them to get him aroused and suggest a few things for him to do? He is conditioned to believe he's supposed to appreciate the opportunity. It probably would work even without alcohol.

 

I know this happens because I have brothers.

 

In the case at hand (Steubenville), the boys' genitals were not involved. They put their fingers where they didn't belong and that was determined to be rape under the circumstances. A female could easily do the same to a male in the right circumstances.

[FLDebbie]

I basically agree SKL, but WHY put this on social media? Why even when they sobered up they thought it was ok?

 

I saw the highlights of the boys' response after the verdict and what the white boy said really bothered me. He apologized for putting the pictures out on social media, and didn't apologize for what he did. It's like he still doesn't see what was wrong with it. I wouldn't be surprised if he spends his two years in jail blaming her and social media for what happened to him, and never think that perhaps it was his actions that landed him there. At least the other boy did seem to finally grasp that what he did to the girl might have been wrong.

[Hockey Mom]

Sadly, the NFL has chosen to look the other way wrt their players beating, raping, and murdering women (Google "nfl players with criminal records). These kids grow up idolizing those athletes. Throw in a town that idolizes its high school football team in the same manner, and the only surprising thing about all of this is that it hasn't come to light before now.

 

I taught my DD to bring her own beverage if she was going to a party. We discussed at great length what can (and does) happen at alcohol/drug-fueled, no-supervision, teen parties. I shared a personal experience with her. I'm lucky - my DD was born with a spine of steel, and a level head. We made it through the teen years unscathed.

 

I am teaching my boys what the word integrity means. We will cover more when they get older.

[Veritaserum]

I'll be explicitly teaching my son to NOT rape. This is an excellent article on how to do just that:

 

"If you want to keep teens from being rapists, you can no longer assume that they know how. You HAVE to talk about it. There is no longer a choice. It is no longer enough to talk to our kids about the mechanics of sex, it probably never was. We have to talk about consent, what it means, and how you are sure you have it. We have to teach clearly and boldly that consent is (in the words of Dianna E. Anderson) an enthusiastic, unequivocal YES!"

 

http://accidentaldevotional.com/2013/03/19/the-day-i-taught-how-not-to-rape/

[PachiSusan]

Having just had the first of our "sex talks" with my 10 year old daughter, I was amazed that one of the first questions she asked was, "What if a boy wants to have sex with me and I don't??". I had no idea she even knew about what went on, let alone worried that she might get stuck in a situation where she'd be pressured to do something she didn't want to do.

[ktgrok]

 

I'm not putting the actions in the same category.

 

BUT it was also illegal for each and every one of those kids, male and female, to be drinking alcohol (unless their own parents were right there giving it to them).

 

The whole argument is that the girl was too drunk to consent, yet wasn't everyone involved drinking? Why is only the girl's impaired judgment relevant?

 

Remembering back, I'm sorry to say that there were plenty of times when girls gave the boys the impression that they were happy to be touched in that way. I realize as an adult that this probably goes back to all kinds of insecurities, perhaps a history of home abuse, whatever, but I personally do not think it's fair to expect teen boys (who are also drunk and impaired) to understand all that. (That said, as I stated before, I trust the judge who saw all the evidence to decide the boys' culpability.) This discussion IMO is about what we do to protect our kids, not so much whether the boys in this case were upstanding citizens. Prison or no prison, this scenario will play out again and again because both boys AND girls fail to make sensible choices.

 

Parents need to tell their kids to NOT DRINK and not go to parties where drinking is going on. Why? Because this sort of thing *often* happens in those settings with teens. The fact that there is now a rape conviction and sentence does not change the fact that the victim was violated and publicly shamed.

 

As a teen I never trusted people who would offer alcohol to an underage person. I would never put myself in that position but walk the other way. I hope my kids will do the same. Because there is no way I want them trusting their "friends" to watch out for them when they themselves have lost the capacity to do so. No way. Though I appreciate all this talk about "my kid should step in to help another person," the fact is that if my kid is acting sensibly, she is not there in the first place.

 

I don't have boys and none of the men in my life would have done these things AFAIK, so it's not like I'm sticking up for scumbags. I'm just trying to be realistic.

 

 

OH, I agree with your realism. I've been the victim in a similar situation, and I shouldn't have put myself in that situation. When my kids are older there will be some frank conversations. But in regard to the bolded, the boys were not so drunk that they couldn't use their camera phones and social media. That implies less drunk than the girl that couldn't stand up on her own. I've had some drinking days, and if I could still see well enough to read the Denny's menu I wasn't so drunk that I didn't know rape was wrong. If you can still use the buttons on your phone you are sober enough to know not to put yourself inside another person without their permission.

[justamouse]

I can totally imagine doing incredibly stupid things while drunk. But what makes this insane to me is that they didn't really show much remorse. They put their actions on display so apparently they didn't think what they did was so bad. I mean if I think I did something really bad, I'm not going to put it on youtube.

 

And being drunk doesn't really give a person a free pass when they do something stupid or illegal.

 

 

When bemoaning how their lives are over, they're still--even after all of this--too selfish to think beyond their own lives that they have willfully ruined.

 

 

I don't believe this was just a matter of "good kids that made a stupid mistake". It goes well beyond that.

 

A book I'm reading right now touches on something that is very relevant to what happened in Steubenville. It talks about the evolution of character education in our society, and specifically within our schools. The author's premise is that we've traditionally used literature, history, and other means to teach kids the importance of character traits like honesty, respect, and how to stand up for what's right. He goes as far back as Plato and Aristotle to illustrate this point. But over the last 50 years or so, there has been a shift away from this type of explicit character education towards a "decision-making" model where we ask kids to decide what's right and wrong based on what "feels right" without helping them develop a proper foundation first. Note that he doesn't state that it's wrong to let people decide their own position on moral issues. His point (and I agree with him) is that we first need to help our kids develop a basic set of values before we present them with those decisions. The Steubenville incident illustrates perfectly what can happen when individuals lack a core understanding of right and wrong, and rely instead on what feels right in the moment.

 

As the mother of a boy, it's important to me to raise my son to be a man of character who treats women (and everyone for that matter) with respect. In the past, I've focused on character education more in the context of day to day life, addressing things as they come up or discussing a book or situation together. Based on recent insights and discussions like this, I'm going to be much more intentional about it.

 

 

:iagree: We have taken out all morality from society, and then expect them to make sound judgements.

 

 

I almost wonder if part of the problem is that we don't talk to kids soon enough about these things? We don't admit they are doing these things in high school. I wasn't, but I knew plenty of people who were. When I went to college there was a lot of talk about being safe, behavior at parties, etc. I went to some parties and I always took the advice. In high school, it was not really on my radar. (This is not to say these things never happen in college age parties though.)

 

 

But again, this puts the onus of the violence on the women, not the men. That's why it's still happening.

 

No matter how she's dressed, no matter how drunk she is, now matter anything, you do not rape.

 

I'd like to hear how the men think this should be handled. How they think this culture of rape can be stopped.

[ktgrok]

I was doing those things in high school, but I had a great group of girls, and really great guy friends as well. It just would not have happened. There was not much dating within the circle of friends, and we all watched out for each other in all situations. That doesn't mean we weren't lucky, and didn't put ourselves at risk...we did. And I look back in retrospect and shudder.

 

I just think it is really important we don't reduce rape to an insensible choice, or bad judgement. It really isn't that wishy washy, and we do our boys a discredit if we think they can't understand the nuance.

 

Rape also isn't really about se**ual pleasure, I am sure being football big shots, those boys would not have had a problem finding a willing partner that night. They chose instead to do unspeakably vile things.

 

 

 

Yes, that is exactly right. If instead of raping a girl they had done this to a straight guy that was passed out no one would be saying he was "asking for it". Or that it was his fault for getting drunk.

[ktgrok]

The whole thing of them being athletes of any stripe is irrelevant imo. There is this one brutal case, yes...that we know about-- and are a little extra horrified about-- because the rapists themselves posted the evidence of their brutality for the world to see. But it's not like this doesn't happen all over. It's not like this hasn't happened since the beginning of time. Even when people were educated by the "great heroes" standards. You know what I mean? Poets RAPE. Engineers RAPE. Teachers RAPE. Lauded high school athletes don't suddenly have the corner on the rape market.

 

I hope that this will dovetail into a larger national conversation and awareness of the problem of rape in general.

 

 

 

True story. The guys that did this to me were a geek/loser creepy guy with no real job and an older brother of a girl I sort of knew...not sure what he was but it wasn't an athlete. He was married though. ugh.

[AndyJoy]

This whole situation is beyond disturbing. It makes me ill to think about it. But I know it is vitally important to discuss this stuff with our kids and work on correcting the underlying attitudes that lead to such evil and stupid acts. The thought of my son doing that horrifies me. There is NO WAY I would defend him as these parents have done. But I will also teach my daughter (and son!) not to be stupid with alcohol.

 

When I was 20 I saved a drunk 19-year-old young woman from a potential rape.

 

I worked at an amusement park and went to a party at a co-worker's apartment with all of my co-workers, ages 19-39. I knew this crowd well enough to know that it would get out of hand, so I planned to leave after 30 min. I sat down and started reading the 1st Harry Potter book but was mocked and had it snatched from me. By then I was ready to leave, but I ended up staying longer because it became clear to me that 2 men (23 & 25) who often talked about how "hot" she was at work were trying to get this 90 lb. young woman drunk by playing a card game that required the loser to drink a shot of tequila. The two men kept whispering to each other and looking at her. I pulled her aside and warned her about what that much alcohol could do to her to her tiny body, but she blew me off. After she had 5 shots, a wine cooler, and a beer, she was very clearly impaired. She made some comment about leaving, but the 25-year-old (our boss) started smooth-talking her into staying. Earlier he had been bragging about his sexual exploits--counting off how many women he had slept with and listing their names. I offered to walk her back to her dorm, and she started to come with me. Then, the 6'4" 23-year-old stood in front of the door and said I could leave if I wanted, but she was staying. A few others glanced our way, but no one said a word. I told him to open the door, but he grinned smugly and insisted she was staying. I said very forcefully, "No, we are BOTH leaving NOW. If you don't move immediately I will call 911 and every one of you will be arrested due to the underage drinking going on." THAT got everyone's attention and several people told him to open the door and let us go.

 

As I half-dragged her back to the dorm, she was slurring her speech and calling out to random people we passed, "I love you!" Once we were at the dorms, I stopped helping her walk and let her get out her own swipe card to get in. I was hoping she'd get stopped at the gate to the dorm since she was obviously drunk, but the guard wasn't paying attention and waved her through. I wasn't going to help her lie about her underage drinking (which would have gotten her fired and arrested). I had to walk her to her room because she didn't even know which dorm to go into.

 

The next afternoon, I told her she'd been an idiot and would most likely have been raped if I hadn't dragged her out of there. She blew me off again. She loved to play the part of the naive young thing. I hope she gave that up before she got really hurt.

 

I had never been to a party with drinking before, had never had alcohol, had never been in a situation where I feared a man, and I knew EXACTLY what was on the minds of those two men. I was shocked that no one else stepped in. I never again went to that kind of gathering.

[justamouse]

I don't expect any man to give up his seat for me. Do people really still teach this?

 

I will give up my seat for anyone who looks like they need it man or woman.

 

Not to pick on the seat thing, but I don't know that we teach men a lot of these things anymore.

 

 

 

It's not that women are weaker and deserve the seat--though it had turned into that.

 

It's that women are to be respected and deserve the seat. It is disrespectful for a man to be sitting and let a woman be without a seat, which is why both sexes give their chairs to their elders (another group we've lost respect for). Women are to be respected is why men stand when you are seated at a table. Feminism has turned some things on its head; yes, we can do these things ourselves, it doesn't mean we shouldn't be afforded the honor. Kissing of a hand is a sign of respect and reverence. Opening a door for someone is a sign of respect for that person.

 

So yes, we still teach our boys to give up their seats, but, more importantly, we teach them why. Those are small things (are they, though?) but they showed the dignity of women.

[Hockey Mom]

The whole thing of them being athletes of any stripe is irrelevant imo. There is this one brutal case, yes...that we know about-- and are a little extra horrified about-- because the rapists themselves posted the evidence of their brutality for the world to see. But it's not like this doesn't happen all over. It's not like this hasn't happened since the beginning of time. Even when people were educated by the "great heroes" standards. You know what I mean? Poets RAPE. Engineers RAPE. Teachers RAPE. Lauded high school athletes don't suddenly have the corner on the rape market.

 

I hope that this will dovetail into a larger national conversation and awareness of the problem of rape in general.

 

 

In the big picture, yes, I agree. In this particular case though, it was because they were part of a "winning" football team that so many adults chose to cover it up or disregard the victim. Steubenville got caught, but it happens in every football-oriented, small community in this country.

 

I attended two different high schools, in two different areas of the country, that maintained that "untouchable football athlete" kind of attitude. I saw a girl who was walking around with a black eye and bruises all over her face by her football "boyfriend" and nothing happened to the athlete. I saw girls in similar situations as the victim of Steubenville, and no one spoke of it. It was whispered about in hallways and on telephones. Posted in "slam books". Those girls had their reputations ruined...and that was BEFORE social media. The one football player who beat up his girlfriend went on to become a HUGE NFL star (and is an analyst for one of the national stations now). The girls in those high schools had no power at all. If you came out against a football player, your reputation would be ruined. And good luck finding a teacher willing to put their neck out for you - it just wasn't done.

 

It saddens me that nothing changes. When did becoming a good athlete make your worth higher than any other human on the planet?

[msjones]

 

Yeah. But in football, what are boys taught about girls? Girls don't play football. They wear cute outfits and jump up and down cheering for the boys.

 

I get what you are saying. I doubt we disagree about this, but ya know what, plenty of people don't shine at anything. That's pretty much true of most people.

 

I don't want them to take away the sports, but maybe they should reconsider the messages sent to the players (the macho, I'm invincible, hey look at me, girls are just objects, etc.). Just looking back at my days in school, it was often the football players who had these attitudes. They often had the bad behavior. I don't know what came first the chicken or the egg (the football or the type of kid drawn to it). I stayed far away from them because I knew what they were like. (No not all of them are like that of course.)

 

 

 

I wish we could be a bit more careful about how we describe football players and cheerleaders on this board. Really.

 

There are cocky players in every sport, and most high school football players are not violent rapists getting special treatment from their communities.

 

Football is an aggressive contact sport, yes, but so are soccer, lacrosse, and basketball.

 

Cheerleaders are usually cheerleaders because they enjoy dance or gymnastics and enjoy the fun of performing for an enthusiastic crowd. And they enjoy dressing up and looking their best when they perform. Plenty of people enjoy that.

 

If that's not your cup of tea, I understand. But lets not paint kids with such broad brushes.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

The football team at my high school went on a trip somewhere. While there, the older boys sodomized the younger boys with pice cones, icy-hot, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

 

Eta: not much ever happened. It wasn't even big on the news at the time.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

I wish we could be a bit more careful about how we describe football players and cheerleaders on this board. Really.

 

There are cocky players in every sport, and most high school football players are not violent rapists getting special treatment from their communities.

 

Football is an aggressive contact sport, yes, but so are soccer, lacrosse, and basketball.

 

Cheerleaders are usually cheerleaders because they enjoy dance or gymnastics and enjoy the fun of performing for an enthusiastic crowd. And they enjoy dressing up and looking their best when they perform. Plenty of people enjoy that.

 

If that's not your cup of tea, I understand. But lets not paint kids with such broad brushes.

 

The issue is that athletes as a whole (not just football players) often have that "untouchable" status in high schools. Not every individual athlete is bad. That untouchable kind of atmosphere lends itself to issues like Steubenville is facing now. This problem is not new. It was an issue when I was in high school, it was an issue when my parents were in high school. I am in favor of extra curricular activities including sports. But I am not in favor of special treatment that allows students who excel in these activities to get away with whatever.

[Caroline]

I know your DH coaches football and you feel the need to defend him. However, soccer, lacrosse, and basketball are not as aggressive as football. Normal plays in football would get players in those other sports ejected for the rest of the season.

 

And, in the US, football is king. Football players and coaches get by with a lot more at high schools than the coaches and players of other sports, even when the football team is crappy and the lacrosse team wins the state championship. This letting athletes get by with little offenses leads to them trying to get by with bigger offenses. No one is saying every football player and coach is a rapist. But what we are saying in that there is a culture around high school sports, and especially football that gives kids the impression that they can do no wrong.

 

 

 

 

I wish we could be a bit more careful about how we describe football players and cheerleaders on this board. Really.

 

There are cocky players in every sport, and most high school football players are not violent rapists getting special treatment from their communities.

 

Football is an aggressive contact sport, yes, but so are soccer, lacrosse, and basketball.

 

Cheerleaders are usually cheerleaders because they enjoy dance or gymnastics and enjoy the fun of performing for an enthusiastic crowd. And they enjoy dressing up and looking their best when they perform. Plenty of people enjoy that.

 

If that's not your cup of tea, I understand. But lets not paint kids with such broad brushes.

[msjones]

 

Yeah. But in football, what are boys taught about girls? Girls don't play football. They wear cute outfits and jump up and down cheering for the boys.

 

 

I don't want them to take away the sports, but maybe they should reconsider the messages sent to the players (the macho, I'm invincible, hey look at me, girls are just objects, etc.).

 

(No not all of them are like that of course.)

 

I just disagree that this is what football "teaches." Perhaps in some rogue programs, yes, but I thought this statement was a stretch and somewhat insulting to anyone involved in football.

 

I do appreciate that she pointed out that not "all of them" are like that. I would say, however, that few of them are actually teaching these things.

[msjones]

I know your DH coaches football and you feel the need to defend him. However, soccer, lacrosse, and basketball are not as aggressive as football. Normal plays in football would get players in those other sports ejected for the rest of the season.

 

And, in the US, football is king. Football players and coaches get by with a lot more at high schools than the coaches and players of other sports, even when the football team is crappy and the lacrosse team wins the state championship. This letting athletes get by with little offenses leads to them trying to get by with bigger offenses. No one is saying every football player and coach is a rapist. But what we are saying in that there is a culture around high school sports, and especially football that gives kids the impression that they can do no wrong.

 

Yup. I'm a coach's wife. And I do agree with your point about football being more aggressive. I just wanted to point out that many sports teach boys to be physically aggressive and dominant.

 

I'll also point out that I live in Seattle. We do NOT have a football culture (or a big cheer culture) around here at all, so I haven't lived that. I know that it's very different in other parts of the US, so I should try to remember that.

 

I just know that there are many outstanding coaches -- yes, my husband included. He and the other coaches are regularly thanked for the positive impact they've made on boys' lives. They have high standards for players' grades and behavior and do not hesitate to remove a player who blows it. My husband would refuse to coach on any other kind of team.

 

(Caroline, how did you know he coaches? :confused1: )

[Parrothead]

In the big picture, yes, I agree. In this particular case though, it was because they were part of a "winning" football team that so many adults chose to cover it up or disregard the victim. Steubenville got caught, but it happens in every football-oriented, small community in this country.

 

I attended two different high schools, in two different areas of the country, that maintained that "untouchable football athlete" kind of attitude. I saw a girl who was walking around with a black eye and bruises all over her face by her football "boyfriend" and nothing happened to the athlete. I saw girls in similar situations as the victim of Steubenville, and no one spoke of it. It was whispered about in hallways and on telephones. Posted in "slam books". Those girls had their reputations ruined...and that was BEFORE social media. The one football player who beat up his girlfriend went on to become a HUGE NFL star (and is an analyst for one of the national stations now). The girls in those high schools had no power at all. If you came out against a football player, your reputation would be ruined. And good luck finding a teacher willing to put their neck out for you - it just wasn't done.

 

It saddens me that nothing changes. When did becoming a good athlete make your worth higher than any other human on the planet?

 

 

I agree. And sometimes the boys didn't even have to do anything but talk smack. If a ball player said he did a girl, no one questioned it. The girl could deny it all 4 years, no one would believe her.

[gardenmom5]

I'll also point out that I live in Seattle. We do NOT have a football culture (or a big cheer culture) around here at all, so I haven't lived that. I know that it's very different in other parts of the US, so I should try to remember that.

 

that's for sure. (though don't underestimate the tyee club's ability to raise funds ;p) I've found the huge football towns are areas where other sports or opportunities for big activities are lacking. there are also multiple professional sports franchises.

seattle has many opportunties for outdoor sports/activities from inexpensive to very expensive (there's a guide service based here that has summeted everestt.). REI and Eddie Bauer both started here. and for the sedentary to the ultra-fit (see above.)

there's also lots to do for people who have no interest in watching/participating in sports.

[Caroline]

 

 

Yup. I'm a coach's wife.

 

(Caroline, how did you know he coaches? :confused1: )

 

 

I have a really good memory? You have mentioned that he coaches football in the past.

 

And I live in the South, so football is important. My kids play soccer. While it is cool, it isn't American Football.

[justamouse]

Well, here we now have two more football players accused of statutory rape of two 13 yo girls, and the blaming of the victims.

 

 

 

 

Sealed by a Litchfield district court, the case had been kept under wraps by school officials until this week, when the Register Citizen reported that "dozens of athletes and Torrington High School students, male and female," taunted the alleged victims on Twitter:

 

Students flocked to social media in the days surrounding the arrests of Gonzalez and Toribio, with several students offering support for the two football players and others blaming the victims for causing the incident. References included calling a 13-year-old who hangs around with 18-year-olds a “whore,†and claiming the victims “destroyed†the lives of the players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[delaney]

 

I just disagree that this is what football "teaches." Perhaps in some rogue programs, yes, but I thought this statement was a stretch and somewhat insulting to anyone involved in football.

 

I do appreciate that she pointed out that not "all of them" are like that. I would say, however, that few of them are actually teaching these things.

 

It's the underlying theme of that particular sport. Macho, hit 'em hard, we are the champions, blah, blah, blah

[Dandelion]

Our town has a long history of looking the other way for their football players. Families used to go back generations and there was a good old boy mentality where 'boys will be boys'.

 

Somewhere in the back of their minds (or maybe even the front) these boys thought they would be protected because they were football players. Football is so important that players do get by with all sorts of crap. And people who go up against a football player, well, heaven help them.

 

As a former resident I can say they WAY idolize the football team. EVERY business has a Big Red banner in the window.....A football player even smashed the window to the local store and the store owner wouldn't even report it because "he was a football player" (I was a witness)

 

 

I agree that the "football culture" and "football is king" attitude are a key part of the issue here.

 

The parents of these boys may well have talked to them about the importance of character, right and wrong, and how to treat girls. But the real message these boys were getting from everyone around them is that they were more important than everyone else. They could do no wrong. The rules didn't apply to them. Adults can talk about character and *doing the right thing* until they're blue in the face. If kids aren't getting a consistent message - and the words aren't congruent with everything that is being communicated otherwise (in this case, how the players were being treated) - they're not going to pay attention to it.

 

Actions speak a million times louder than words. I'm not all that surprised that these boys don't seem remorseful, or don't even seem to grasp that they did anything wrong. When the message you constantly get is that you can do no wrong, you internalize that - especially if you're an immature, impressionable kid. What these boys did was heinous, and they need to be held accountable. I'm not excusing them in the least. But the adults around them who communicated the dangerous message to them that they were above everyone else - and possibly even above the law - bear responsibility too.

[justamouse]

I agree that the "football culture" and "football is king" attitude are a key part of the issue here.

 

The parents of these boys may well have talked to them about the importance of character, right and wrong, and how to treat girls. But the real message these boys were getting from everyone around them is that they were more important than everyone else. They could do no wrong. The rules didn't apply to them. Adults can talk about character and *doing the right thing* until they're blue in the face. If kids aren't getting a consistent message - and the words aren't congruent with everything that is being communicated otherwise (in this case, how the players were being treated) - they're not going to pay attention to it.

 

Actions speak a million times louder than words. I'm not all that surprised that these boys don't seem remorseful, or don't even seem to grasp that they did anything wrong. When the message you constantly get is that you can do no wrong, you internalize that - especially if you're an immature, impressionable kid. What these boys did was heinous, and they need to be held accountable. I'm not excusing them in the least. But the adults around them who communicated the dangerous message to them that they were above everyone else - and possibly even above the law - bear responsibility too.

 

 

But we're not just making football players entitled, our society makes *everyone* feel entitled. It's a societal sickness. It starts back with purple pens and not having an Honor dinner because the children who didn't do as well will feel bad.

[JessReplanted]

I don't know if anyone has shared Ann Voskamp's blog about this, but I really appreciated reading it:

 

http://www.aholyexpe...-about-manhood/

[Arcadia]

The parents of these boys may well have talked to them about the importance of character, right and wrong, and how to treat girls. But the real message these boys were getting from everyone around them is that they were more important than everyone else. They could do no wrong. The rules didn't apply to them. Adults can talk about character and *doing the right thing* until they're blue in the face. If kids aren't getting a consistent message - and the words aren't congruent with everything that is being communicated otherwise (in this case, how the players were being treated) - they're not going to pay attention to it.

 

 

I agree and it is the same as well for NBA, MLB, olympians, actors and politicians. Media and hero worship makes it worse.

The media here is very "forgiving" when it comes to sports stars.

[I.Dup.]

Well, here we now have two more football players accused of statutory rape of two 13 yo girls, and the blaming of the victims.

 

 

I really don't think this kind of thing is uncommon. :( I wish adults could open their eyes and really see what goes on among teens, instead of being so shocked when things like this come up. I know we don't like to talk about it, we all want to have more faith in teens, but I really don't think this is uncommon. :( The person I was at 16, the way my brain worked, the destructive behaviors I engaged in (and OMG the boys I knew??)....totally different from who I am as a grown adult in my 30s. Thank God.

 

Of course there is no excuse for rape, and in an ideal world, nothing like this would ever happen. Ideally all teens would stand up for those being mistreated, and they would never mistreat each other. But come on.

 

It's very sad and upsetting. I don't know what the solution is. I hope that by homeschooling we are keeping our children away from that destructive peer culture that causes so many of these issues. I'm not sure what the answer is.

[Annie G]

I don't know if anyone has shared Ann Voskamp's blog about this, but I really appreciated reading it:

 

http://www.aholyexpe...-about-manhood/

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing this. It's the best thing I've read in days.

[msjones]

It's the underlying theme of that particular sport. Macho, hit 'em hard, we are the champions, blah, blah, blah

 

 

 

 

Well, it's a good thing you mentioned the "blah, blah, blah" part or we wouldn't have known what you meant.

 

 

 

 

I'm bowing out now. My posts and personal gripes about stereotyping are departing from the OP's far more important topic.

[Arcadia]

I'll also point out that I live in Seattle. We do NOT have a football culture (or a big cheer culture) around here at all, so I haven't lived that. I know that it's very different in other parts of the US, so I should try to remember that.

 

I just read this 1999 research report, "Criminal violence of NFL players compared to the general population". Interesting and raise more questions than answered.

[Laurie4b]

 

 

I don't see why they would be more ashamed to complain. I'm sure girls feel plenty of shame.

 

 

They are more ashamed to complain for several reasons: We may not like it, but cultural stereotypes make it acceptable for girls to need rescuing/ get rescued, but boys are supposed to be able to take care of themselves. So it's the shame of the sexual offense, plus the shame of not being "man enough" to protect themselves, plus also the issue of homosexual contact if the victim is heterosexual. The woman typically has the shame of the sexual offense, which is often overwhelming, but boys have that same overwhelming shame plus the other two added.

[gardenmom5]

I'm not all that surprised that these boys don't seem remorseful, or don't even seem to grasp that they did anything wrong.

 

except at least one of them figured it out within 24 hours he could get in trouble and was looking for help to protect him. If he truly thought what he did was okay - he wouldn't have been seeking any help to run interference for him.

 

iow: they knew what they did was wrong - only this time, reality bit.

[Dandelion]

except at least one of them figured it out within 24 hours he could get in trouble and was looking for help to protect him. If he truly thought what he did was okay - he wouldn't have been seeking any help to run interference for him.

 

iow: they knew what they did was wrong - only this time, reality bit.

 

IMO it's entirely possible to believe you did nothing wrong, and to not feel remorse - and yet be concerned that you could get into trouble and do some CYA. Lance Armstrong is a perfect recent example of that. My impression, based on his interviews, is that he's sorry he got caught. That's it. And based on what I've read about the boys in the Steubenville case, I get the same impression.

[SKL]

There are plenty of rapists who are not football players. That's all I'm going to say about that.

[Dandelion]

I don't have an issue with football at all. Or any other sport for that matter.

 

My issue is with the culture that develops around sports in some areas. When a double standard develops and athletes are allowed to get away with things (e.g. sub-par academics, underage drinking, criminal activity) just because they play on a certain team, that's a problem.