NYT article on NYC Soda Ban Ruling

[Bang!Zoom!]

Judge Blocks New York City’s Limits on Big Sugary Drinks

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/12/nyregion/judge-invalidates-bloombergs-soda-ban.html?hp&_r=1&buffer_share=f7ecb&utm_source=buffer&

 

Intro:

 

A judge struck down New York’s limits on large sugary drinks on Monday, one day before they were to take effect, in a significant blow to one of the most ambitious and divisive initiatives of Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg’s tenure.

[Catwoman]

I know Mayor Bloomberg's intentions were good, but that ban was ridiculous.

[melissad2]

I think that was the dumbest thing ever.

[Lily_Grace]

I know Mayor Bloomberg's intentions were good, but that ban was ridiculous.

 

Same. I'd rather see a Bountiful Baskets food stamp program before creating more bans on what people can buy with their own money.

[Starr]

I just heard on NPR that he is going to appeal the ruling. Oh bother, it's so silly.

[Starr]

Nothing like retiring and being remembered for - soda!

[Bang!Zoom!]

Does anyone know what the penalty for a Slurpee was going to be set at?

[TXBeth]

Does anyone know what the penalty for a Slurpee was going to be set at?

 

Actually according to the article, 7-11 was going to be exempt, so the Slurpees were safe.

[FaithManor]

An appeal will cost the tax payers more money. Is there anyway the Mayor can be billed for the legal fees?

 

Sigh, it seems that of all the problems a city can have, there are bigger fish to fry than this. Why the obssession? If he wants people to be more healthy, he should be encouraging balcony, potted gardens, roof top raised bed gardens, more farmer's markets, and those new "green" roofs made of moss that filter a lot of CO2 out of the air.

 

I can think of a lot of health initiatives deserving of tax money and this isn't one of them, much as I hate and despise the HFCS in soda.

 

Faith

[Brilliant]

 

Sigh, it seems that of all the problems a city can have, there are bigger fish to fry than this. Why the obssession? If he wants people to be more healthy, he should be encouraging balcony, potted gardens, roof top raised bed gardens, more farmer's markets, and those new "green" roofs made of moss that filter a lot of CO2 out of the air.

And anti-smoking programs. Every time I go to NYC I'm shocked by the amount of smoke I have to endure.

[FaithManor]

I'm not a farmer, but from what I saw at Epcot, I didn't get the impression that rooftop gardening in a project has enough sq footage to supply the needs of the population in the building.

 

The effort seems aimed at helping children and teens. Aside from cutting health care costs of those on the state programs, Mayor B. is trying to improve education , and a key to that is having children show up to class fed with nutritious food and ready to learn. Sugar-crashers with rotten teeth don't exactly fall in that category.

 

Interestingly, one of the major grocery chains in the metro area is now offering diabetes medicine for free. Kind of like ordering a supersized diet coke with supersized fries and a Big Mac.

 

Agreed concerninh the rooftop gardening except that since air quality is an issue, all produce grown in the city is a reduction in the amount trucked in. Urban Hobby Farm magazine did a nice article on just how much produce a family could grow for themselves in a tight space. You'd have to really get the city residents excited about it, but there could definitely be a dent and of course those plants do sequester CO2. NO, they can't support themselves on it, but it doesn't mean there aren't clear benefits to supporting such an initiative.

 

My concern is that there are still bigger issues and this appeal is going to cost the citizens of NYC a lot of money that could be better spent on other health programs. Appeals are very, very expensive.

 

Faith

[butterflymommy]

All the money put into this legislation could have been spent handing out literature on nutrition and reduced priced or even free produce. There is a small program in NYC that hands out free produce in the summer but it could have been expanded.

 

Banning a product, or the size of a product, is a terrible, terrible way to go about improving eating habits when the causes of obesity are more far-reaching than the size of a soda cup.

 

I agree that the appeal should not be funded with taxpayer dollars. This whole thing has made me embarrassed to be a NYer.

[butterflymommy]

Not to mention, Mayor Bloomberg has publicly confessed to being a Cheez-It addict. On the scale of unhealthy foods, cheez-its are just as bad as soda. I would just love to know what this guy eats day in and day out. I've also read he's also a big fan of a steak restaurant near his home in the Caribbean. Grilled red meat is well documented as carcinogenous, shouldn't he be banning that too? :glare:

[Spy Car]

Huge sodas are a major factor in the obesity epidemic, which in turn leads to reduced life circumstances and early death.

 

Oh yea! We have the right to committ slow motion suicide. Yippie.

 

Bill

[Remudamom]

He's an idiot.

[Spy Car]

 

 

Isn't life basically slow motion suicide? Not like we are never gonna die even if we have the perfect diet.

 

 

One can dramically effect ones quality of life and have an impact on ones natural lifespan by making good or poor choices about diet, exercise, and lifestyle choices.

 

Drinking soda is a very poor choice.

 

Bill

[Moxie]

Huge sodas are a major factor in the obesity epidemic, which in turn leads to reduced life circumstances and early death.

 

Oh yea! We have the right to committ slow motion suicide. Yippie.

 

Bill

 

 

I was just coming here to ask, who, besides the mayor, was in favor of this? Now I know!

[Lady Florida.]

 

Drinking soda is a very poor choice.

 

Bill

 

 

A poor choice indeed, but still a choice. Not something for a mayor to decide.

[Spy Car]

 

 

While I realize soda can't be argued as a good choice, why does a Mayor of a city get to decide what is good for me or not?

 

 

The government has a long history of acting in the interest of public health when it is endangered. If you don't think we are having an obesity crisis that is destroying the quality of life for many, making a huge impact on the nation's medical bills, and causing early death, then you kid yourself.

 

I've spent way too much time visiting in VA hospitals over the past year. You know how many men I've met who were in there to have their legs amputated because of their sugar consumption/obesity/diabetes problems? Too many to count.

 

We need to wake up!

 

Bill

[Bang!Zoom!]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323826704578354543929974394.html

 

The Wall Street Journal article on it today. Includes a link to Judge Tinglings ruling.

 

Neat quote from it:

 

"There was irrefutable statistical evidence that smoking is bad for people in innumerable ways," Mr. Muzzio said. "With sugary sodas, the causal chain is less clear. Everybody who smokes suffers some adverse consequences, basically. Not everyone who drinks 16 ounce sodas has a health problem."

 

(That's an interesting piece of logic, eh?)

[Bang!Zoom!]

 

I don't disagree, but I don't know that the government has it right to begin with.

 

Today on the breakfast menu at my local school:

 

waffles

apple

orange juice

fat free milk or chocolate milk

 

This falls within the government guidelines. Do you really think this is a healthy menu? Seems like a lot of sugar to me.

 

Soda might seem extremely obvious, but what will be next? I don't trust the government when it comes to knowledge of what is healthy eating. That's what it comes down to for me.

 

School lunches?

 

OMHS, don't get me going. :cursing:

[Spy Car]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323826704578354543929974394.html

 

The Wall Street Journal article on it today. Includes a link to Judge Tinglings ruling.

 

Neat quote from it:

 

"There was irrefutable statistical evidence that smoking is bad for people in innumerable ways," Mr. Muzzio said. "With sugary sodas, the causal chain is less clear. Everybody who smokes suffers some adverse consequences, basically. Not everyone who drinks 16 ounce sodas has a health problem."

 

(That's an interesting piece of logic, eh?)

 

It is stupid logic. A non-smoker could light up a single cigarette and claim it did them no harm (and who could prove otherwise)?

 

Habitual consumption of sodas (especially in supersized quantities) is a threat to health. There is no question about this. Once people claimed that cigarettes were not dangerous (and there were even claims by some that they contributed to health). These, of course, were lies. Drinking mass quantities of soda is a crazy-dangerous life decision.

 

Bill

 

 

[Moxie]

I'm seriously asking a question, not being snarky. In NY, can you buy soda with food stamps?

 

ETA: Don't most fruit juices contain the same amount of sugar as a soda? Serious question. I don't have any juice in the house to check.

[Spy Car]

 

 

I don't disagree, but I don't know that the government has it right to begin with.

 

Today on the breakfast menu at my local school:

 

waffles

apple

orange juice

fat free milk or chocolate milk

 

This falls within the government guidelines. Do you really think this is a healthy menu? Seems like a lot of sugar to me.

 

Soda might seem extremely obvious, but what will be next? I don't trust the government when it comes to knowledge of what is healthy eating. That's what it comes down to for me.

 

The fact that there are other crazy-bad food choices going on (some as part of government sponsored programs) does not change the fact that consumption of mass quantities of soda is a thread to health.

 

Guess who is in favor of cleaning up school lunches? ;)

 

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

ETA: Don't most fruit juices contain the same amount of sugar as a soda? Serious question. I don't have any juice in the house to check.

 

Probably. And if one were to habitually drink 32 or 64 oz at a go it would have serious health consequences. People do that all the time these days with supersized sodas.

 

Bill

[Bang!Zoom!]

If I remember right (and this is probably NOT right) - a single can of coke boiled down is equal to 10 teaspoons of white refined sugar.

 

I'm lazy, someone google how much sugar is in a 32 oz.

 

Now I'm craving a coke and I don't even drink the stuff.

[Moxie]

 

The sad thing is they call that "cleaned up" around here. Again, it's why I don't believe the government.

 

Soda is one of many things. Why waste one's time on this one thing? Couldn't his efforts be better spent on something better than that?

 

 

 

Agreed. Wouldn't a really graphic educational campaign have been a better use of time and money??

[Spy Car]

 

 

The sad thing is they call that "cleaned up" around here. Again, it's why I don't believe the government.

 

Soda is one of many things. Why waste one's time on this one thing? Couldn't his efforts be better spent on something better than that?

 

 

"The Government" is not a monolith. The fact that there are government programs that perpetuate bad food choices at the same time a NYC mayor is on a campaign against soda is situation normal.

 

The same VA Hospital that is sawing off men's legs due to their sugar related diet problems is feeding patients meals that have a great deal in common with school lunches. Is it crazy? Yes!

 

The whole society needs "consciousness raising."

 

None of this changes the fact that habitually drinking mass quantities of soda is a crazy-dangerous threat to ones health.

 

Bill

[nukeswife]

It is stupid logic. A non-smoker could light up a single cigarette and claim it did them no harm (and who could prove otherwise)?

 

Habitual consumption of sodas (especially in supersized quantities) is a threat to health. There is no question about this. Once people claimed that cigarettes were not dangerous (and there were even claims by some that they contributed to health). These, of course, were lies. Drinking mass quantities of soda is a crazy-dangerous life decision.

 

Bill

 

 

But they don't have a law about how many packs of cigarettes one can buy do they? Where's Bloomburg's crusade against that?

[VeritasMama]

Really? They have pretty strict laws about smoking. I am amazed that for a major city how little I smell the smoke (unlike some European cities I've been to).

 

 

Or Canada, when I was young, smoking there was everywhere. I don't remember encountering much smoke at all when I've been to NYC, but two of those trips occured after the indoor smoking ban went into effect.

[Moxie]

 

Actually no. I read somewhere recently that some state governments consider cutting funding for such campaigns because for all the years they have been doing them there is no evidence it is working.

 

I wish I could quote what I read, but I don't remember it. It sounds about right to me though. I don't think that people are unaware.

 

 

So what has reduced smoking? I think it is the cost. What about some kind of "sin tax" on larger sizes? Although I could be buying a 64 oz. diet soda...

[Moxie]

 

 

I realize the government is not a monolith. But really I don't have any confidence in anything I've seen related to healthy eating/food coming from government anything.

 

And I resent advice from hypocrites. (No I'm not calling YOU a hypocrite.)

 

 

Yes, like when the public school system tries to regulate homeschooling. Clean your own house first!

[Spy Car]

 

 

So what has reduced smoking? I think it is the cost. What about some kind of "sin tax" on larger sizes? Although I could be buying a 64 oz. diet soda...

 

I think you are right. You assumed I supported a "ban," which was an incorrect assumption on your part) I think the best policy would have been "sin taxes" on supersized sodas.

 

Yes, I realize that some poor souls would be driven to consuming 4 (or more) 12 oz soda instead of their Big Gulps, but what can you do if people are bent on self-destruction?

 

Bill

 

[Lisbeth]

The government has a long history of acting in the interest of public health when it is endangered. If you don't think we are having an obesity crisis that is destroying the quality of life for many, making a huge impact on the nation's medical bills, and causing early death, then you kid yourself.

 

I've spent way too much time visiting in VA hospitals over the past year. You know how many men I've met who were in there to have their legs amputated because of their sugar consumption/obesity/diabetes problems? Too many to count.

 

We need to wake up!

 

Bill

 

Oh, I don't disagree with the idea that we have a health crisis. The thing is, the obesity crisis should not contribute to the nation's medical bills, it should contribute to the obese person's bills alone. What I see is the more the government controls things like health care, the more it can "step in" in the interest of "the public good" and government spending, and regulate health practices, diet practices...etc.

 

I believe with our liberty should come responsibility. When we give over responsibility (as in, paying for our health care) we are also giving over our freedom to choose for our own health. They go hand in hand.

I want government out of BOTH. I will pay for MY healthcare, and I will be responsible for my health.

[Spy Car]

 

 

But they don't have a law about how many packs of cigarettes one can buy do they? Where's Bloomburg's crusade against that?

 

NYC taxes the heck out of cigarettes (which is a very good idea). They ought to use the same approach with supersized sodas. Both are threats to health.

 

Bill

[Bang!Zoom!]

Cigarettes here are 3.20 a pack. - South Carolina. Oh Good God you should SEE the grocery stores down here. You should SEE how it is. Absolutely stunning. The soda aisles are not to be believed.

 

Wally World for reals.

[Mrs Mungo]

"The Government" is not a monolith. The fact that there are government programs that perpetuate bad food choices at the same time a NYC mayor is on a campaign against soda is situation normal.

 

Well (to add to that), in point of fact, it was *also* "The Government" that struck down the law. That is the point of our government. We have a system of checks and balances.

 

Eta: I would be fine with sin taxes on big sodas. Little nudges toward making better choices are proven to be effective tools.

[Dandelion]

I applaud this judge for his ruling. :hurray: Bloomberg's approach here, while perhaps well-intentioned, was completely ridiculous.

 

There are several issues with Bloomberg's ban:

1. Bloomberg stepped outside of his authority by trying to run this ban through NYC's Board of Health (a board which is solely appointed by him, BTW). In NYC, the City Council is the legislative body, and as the judge's decision explains "it alone has the authority to legislate as the board seeks to do here". So the way this ban was being pushed through wasn't legal to start with.
    
   
2. All the exceptions to this ban (grocery or convenience stores that don't serve prepared foods, anything that has at least 50% milk or milk substitute, etc.) pretty much guaranteed that the ban wouldn't have brought about the desired change. The more likely outcome would have been a shift of purchases from restaurants and street vendors to grocery and convenience stores. Also, since restaurants and street vendors could still have served diet sodas in the larger sizes under this ban, I have no doubt there would have been a lot of "here's your diet coke, wink-wink" going on. Enforcement of this ban would have been a joke.
    
   
3. Anyone who has done a bit of research on the health effects of regular vs. diet soda knows that diet soda is just as bad for you - just in different ways. I think promoting diet soda as a *healthier option* is completely irresponsible.
   

 

Yes, we have an obesity epidemic and serious health issues. But this ban was not the right way to go about addressing it.

[Bang!Zoom!]

I confess I cannot shop very well in any grocery store here because of what I see.

 

They are absolutely terrifying here. I'm quite serious.

 

I used to love to grocery shop, now it's like...some sort of really bad county fair spook house. It's frustrating and scary.

 

Nothing like almost having a nervous breakdown in the "wha??? where are the fruits and vegetables?" invisible section.

 

Man I miss Washington.

[vonfirmath]

 

Although it still feels like one guy against another. Bloomberg against a judge. I know it's not quite like that. People probably rallied to get a judge to strike it down. But it still came down to that one guy deciding it was an inappropriate law.

 

 

That's the job of the judicial branch of the government. To make sure the executive power stays within its bounds and the legislative within its bounds.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

Although it still feels like one guy against another. Bloomberg against a judge. I know it's not quite like that. People probably rallied to get a judge to strike it down. But it still came down to that one guy deciding it was an inappropriate law.

 

 

No politician or judge is one guy. They are representatives of the people. If the people don't like their representation, then they can vote them out. And judges are sort of technical experts on the law, they are not just random individuals making decisions in a vacuum.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Might Heidi.

 

You know what really kills me? Living somewhere that fabulous things grow but go to the store to find the local crop and it isn't there.

 

It's all imports from 2K miles away. I've never understood the sense in this.

[Catwoman]

 

And anti-smoking programs. Every time I go to NYC I'm shocked by the amount of smoke I have to endure.

 

 

Seriously? :confused:

 

We are in NYC several days a week, and there is almost never any kind of smoke smell anywhere. If Mayor Bloomberg will be remembered for something, it won't be this stupid soda ban thing; it will be for his anti-smoking campaign. It was quite controversial at the time, but the long term benefits have been huge for non-smokers, as there truly is no smoke anywhere we go -- and it is a dramatic change from the way things used to be. Granted, we don't go to every single neighborhood in the city, but we do visit many different areas on a regular basis.

 

A lot of smokers really, really, really don't like Mayor Bloomberg. (Of course, you kind of can't blame them -- Bloomberg probably wouldn't have supported the smoking bans before he quit smoking. ;))

[Mrs Mungo]

Might Heidi.

 

You know what really kills me? Living somewhere that fabulous things grow but go to the store to find the local crop and it isn't there.

 

It's all imports from 2K miles away. I've never understood the sense in this.

 

 

I don't find local produce in many chain grocery stores, but I find plenty of farm stands, produce co-ops and local farmers markets.

[Spy Car]

 

 

I'm all for the taxes on cigarettes because I hate cigarettes and wish they would go away, but I just wonder what they do with the money. It still feels wrong to me that they do it that way. If they are so horrifically bad why are they still legal? Probably because so much money continues to be made from them.

 

Although at least in NY they have smoking help lines and even will give people free smoking patches, etc. So at least some of the money is going to the right place.

 

 

Do you not think the obesity problem in this country is not as serious as the thread posed by (the ever dwindling) consumption of cigarettes? In some places almost half the population is obese, and it is accepted as "the new normal." That is a problem.

 

And while one can find fault with "the Government," the reduction in cigarettes consumption came largely from multi-pronged efforts by a host of government agencies which exposed the true threat to public health and acted in ways to cut consumption.

 

Were there government programs that irrationally propped up tabacco growing at the same time other government programs were trying to reduce tobacco use? Sure.

 

The evidence that the government is not a monolith does not change the fact that cigarettes are a danger to health. Everyone knows this.

 

It is time for people to wake up to the fact that the habitual consumption of supersized sodas is also a danger to health. Just look around. Go visit with a vet who is about to have his leg removed if you need a reality-check.

 

Bill

[Bang!Zoom!]

I'm sitting here wondering if I've ever even had a 32 oz. soda in my life. We need a poll. I'm not smart enough to know how to make one.

[ravinlunachick]

Regarding how much sugar is in various food items, this visual may be helpful:

 

http://www.sugarstacks.com/

[Bang!Zoom!]

There is a store being built here called a Fresh Market.

 

I think it's like a sorta Whole Foods gig image thing..I'm not sure yet. But man I cannot WAIT for that place to open up.

 

Anything has got to be better than what's around now.

 

Two dollars and fifty cents for a single ordinary green pepper. And it's shipped in from across the country. :(

 

Have you guys seen that soda fountain thing at home they sell at Bed Bath and Beyond now? Someone is sitting in the Bahamas laughing their butt off and getting a nice tan from that one.

[SKL]

Huge sodas are a major factor in the obesity epidemic, which in turn leads to reduced life circumstances and early death.

 

Oh yea! We have the right to committ slow motion suicide. Yippie.

 

Bill

 

 

Oh, brother. Ever heard of a family sharing an economy-sized purchase?

 

So sick of Big Brother. I'm sure there are no other problems to solve in NYC.

 

In a way, it would have been nice to see how the ban succeeds after a couple of years. Who wants to bet me that fat people will still manage to stay fat despite the disappearance of mega sodas?

[Joker]

There is a store being built here called a Fresh Market.

 

I think it's like a sorta Whole Foods gig image thing..I'm not sure yet. But man I cannot WAIT for that place to open up.

 

Anything has got to be better than what's around now.

 

Two dollars and fifty cents for a single ordinary green pepper. And it's shipped in from across the country. :(

 

Have you guys seen that soda fountain thing at home they sell at Bed Bath and Beyond now? Someone is sitting in the Bahamas laughing their butt off and getting a nice tan from that one.

 

 

If it's the same Fresh Market chain we have here, I wouldn't expect too much. My dds love to go there though for their candy selection. It's rather spectacular and takes up the middle of the store.