Article on "wacky facts" in A Beka and BJU

[stripe]

I think this is true, although the people who think this way aren't giving enough credit to the children being homeschooled (as far as thinking the kids will only believe what is being taught.)

 

I was homeschooled, and taught with some selective interpretations. As I grew up, I learned more for myself, and formed my own opinions.

Perhaps -- I have read that many children from ultraconservative evangelical Christian homes tend to stray from that path, but I think as a consequence, the adults become more clingy.

[justasque]

I think many people have serious misgivings about homeschooling because they think it's all a ploy to keep children uninformed about anything other than a very narrow and selective interpretation of what happened.

 

Then there's those who oppose, for public schools, "critical thinking skills and similar programs" which "have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority".

 

Which is an interesting question to consider - when is it OK for government schools to "challenge the student's fixed beliefs", given that it may indeed "undermine parental authority"? Is such "challenge" an integral part of education? Or can/should it be avoided when possible? Which beliefs must be left alone? Which can be challenged? Discuss. ;)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

That would be an interesting study to conduct, wouldn't it?

 

Faith

 

I'm like a dog with a bone over this thought. I really want to know!

 

We could do a poll here but I don't think it would be a representative sample of convention-goers. Not post-kerfuffle.

[Parrothead]

Did anyone notice that the original post pulled out one-sentence excerpts from the texts? I'll bet I could do the same thing with all kinds of secular textbooks and they would look completely different from the original intent.

So, all those sentences were just taken out of context?

[Merry]

probably the only area where I agree with the fundies is the young earth theory but even there, I don't agree that Satan or God planted the fossils or that if you don't follow all of their teachings about politics like KKK or the Great Depression, then you're not saved. Oh, my. The article was a real eye opener. It's truly ironic that the fundies praise Columbus so highly in spite of his being a Catholic.

It just goes to show that we cannot rely on any person, group, religion, whatever to do our thinking for us. At the same time, we cannot let our pride in our self-sufficiency blind us to errors in our thinking.

This said, I do use some of the BJU materials just because they are so well done and add structure to our homeschool but I certainly will be much more aware of possible errors in the books than I have been in the past and point them out to my kids to help them learn to think for themselves and developed well-trained minds:)

[Mrs Mungo]

Someone else is going to have to take over for me, I have to run! I'll be back later to answer any questions asked of me, don't think I'm ignoring you! :)

[FairyMom]

Since this thread began I have been wondering how many homeschooling parents of today were educated with Abeka curriculum, themselves, whether as homeschoolers or in private schools. I guess I should also wonder how many homeschooling parents are BJU grads.

 

Because if it is a significant percentage, that might explain the homeschooling conventions of today.

 

Anyone have any data on this?

 

Methinks data collection should ensue.....

[FaithManor]

I'm like a dog with a bone over this thought. I really want to know!

 

We could do a poll here but I don't think it would be a representative sample of convention-goers. Not post-kerfuffle.

 

Hmmmm....you are probably right. For this forum, the kerfuffle had a big influence on how many, many people felt about the conventions.

 

I don't think the data would be meaningful.

 

Faith

[FairyMom]

It will definitely not be a true representation, but it could still be interesting... maybe even informative. :)

[PrairieSong]

I am a Christian (though the BJU and A Beka people would probably disagree) and I'm reeling at the thought of kids being taught that the KKK or Apartheid are somehow good things, that the Depression wasn't really all that bad, etc.

 

How can Christians think that that kind of oppression is in any way good???

 

I have heard some wacko things from a former friend of mine...that the antebellum South was a wonderful society, because the wealthy people had other people (!!!!) doing all the hard work. She also believes that the Holocaust was way overblown, that some Jews died, but nowhere near six million. That didn't come from fundie text books, but it sounds like the same type of mindset.

[oasis]

Perhaps -- I have read that many children from ultraconservative evangelical Christian homes tend to stray from that path, but I think as a consequence, the adults become more clingy.

 

I'm from an ultraconservative evangelical Christian home. I'm still a Christian, but I'm not as conservative as my parents.

 

I do see some adults who become more clingy, but I believe that is the wrong approach.

 

This may sound too simplistic (I keep getting interrupted at work! :D), but I think one should be confident enough in his/her beliefs to simply explain why one believes that particular way, and if the student doesn't believe that way, the student should be able to explain why or why not.

[Kathryn]

Then there's those who oppose, for public schools, "critical thinking skills and similar programs" which "have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority".

 

Which is an interesting question to consider - when is it OK for government schools to "challenge the student's fixed beliefs", given that it may indeed "undermine parental authority"? Is such "challenge" an integral part of education? Or can/should it be avoided when possible? Which beliefs must be left alone? Which can be challenged? Discuss. ;)

 

My rambing thoughts: In my eighth grade science class, when my classmate tried to argue about God and the Big Bang, our teacher repeatedly stated that government schools were not for teaching religious beliefs, this was a science class and we were there to learn scientifically-accepted information. We as a class were free to engage in debate over it, but the teacher himself would not be joining in. We did debate for a while but as it was the rest of the class against her, she put her hands over her ears and hummed loudly, and announced that she wasn't listening. She was told that she was free to hold her opinions, but she was not to be disruptive or she would have to leave, and that on the test, she would answer with the information taught or she'd be marked wrong. He did not ask her to believe it, just to listen to it and demonstrate that she had learned the material come test time. Honestly, besides another girl's hair catching fire, that's the only thing I remember from that year of science. If she had actually engaged with something more thoughtful than "la-la-la, I'm right and you're wrong," perhaps her position would have been more respected. But, the behavior she exhibited is exactly what I see (though not often literally) from the fundamentalist community.

[Coffeetime]

Woody Guthrie was one powerful dude but I don't think he came up with the Great Depression on his own. Wait, I know! It was Earl Hamner Jr. that fleeced the nation on that one. Dang Waltons.

 

I knew there were problems with Abeka and BJU but I didn't know of very many examples. Now I want to buy all of it and read it so I can understand some hs'ers better, because I have a feeling that everything will all suddenly make sense.

 

The one that really floors me right now is the KKK reference. I don't know why I'm so shocked, when I do know about BJU's stance on racial issues that persisted up until, like, yesterday.

 

This is bad.

:iagree::blink:

 

Since this thread began I have been wondering how many homeschooling parents of today were educated with Abeka curriculum, themselves, whether as homeschoolers or in private schools. I guess I should also wonder how many homeschooling parents are BJU grads.

 

Because if it is a significant percentage, that might explain the homeschooling conventions of today.

 

Anyone have any data on this?

 

My parents used Abeka at certain points in my homeschooling career. Back then, there wasn't much else available. Thankfully, I was also taught to think for myself. ;) I would never use either of those curriculums with my children. There is a local private school that uses BJU and several of my friends send their children to it. I don't get it. There is so much amazing curriculum available! Why use something so...controversial and mediocre? :confused:

 

ETA to discuss vouchers- our State Constitution doesn't allow for vouchers but I still think there needs to be SOMETHING done to encourage school choice. What about some sort of tax credit system?

Edited August 9, 2012 by Coffeetime

[Mom2Es]

My grandfather who picked cotton in the Oklahoma heat was a Republican, but he wouldn't have lied.

 

Lied about what? My grandfather thought the government was jerking the farmers around and making things worse for them than they already were, and he didn't like being treated that way. How is that a lie rather than an opinion?

[Kathryn]

Lied about what? My grandfather thought the government was jerking the farmers around and making things worse for them than they already were, and he didn't like being treated that way. How is that a lie rather than an opinion?

 

Whether or not things were "that bad" in the Depression. From the article:

 

7. The Great Depression wasn't as bad as the liberals made it sound: "Perhaps the best known work of propaganda to come from the Depression was John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath…Other forms of propaganda included rumors of mortgage foreclosures, mass evictions, and hunger riots and exaggerated statistics representing the number of unemployed and homeless people in America."—United States History: Heritage of Freedom, 2nd ed., A Beka Book, 1996

 

It's not an argument over whose fault it was, it's an argument about whether it really happened. My grandfather's family lost their Kansas farm, as did his grandparents, who joined the trek out to California. But, then, maybe he made all that up.

[Guest]

I'm surprised there aren't any BJU or ABEKA defenders popping in.

 

Ugh. I feel like I need to comment because I commented in another recent Abeka thread. First of all, I'll admit to being wacky. I just will. No, I don't agree with everything in that article. In fact, much of it sounds bizarre and I wonder if it is taken out of context. I used Abeka myself just about through Jr. High and found it interesting that most of those quotes were taken from the Grade 11 & 12 texts, which I have never seen.

 

I will agree with a lot of the generalizations I've seen on this forum about Abeka - it is whitewashed, white man is the hero, pilgrims came to America for religious freedom and to spread the gospel. And as I've said before, I don't personally have a problem with what is taught in the younger years - at least I'm not going to call those who educate with an Abeka textbook "wacky". I understand the perspective of wanting to foster patriotism when a child is young. I even understand giving a child an education that masks evil. Granted, I have moved away from the whole Abeka history idea myself, but gee, those that do wish to educate in that way are welcome to do so.

 

I don't want to speak for their older grades as I didn't use them. I know people who have, and they are great people, though!

 

I guess my point in writing this is not so much to defend Abeka, (I have no experience with BJU so I'm not touching that one!) but I'm surprised at the accusations towards those who use their products. Every single Christian school I have heard of uses Abeka or BJU. The majority of homeschoolers I know have either heard of or use Abeka and BJU. I don't think everyone who uses these texts are "wacky" or should be portrayed as so. I think that's a strong accusation.

 

And now I'm going to go school, with my non-Abeka materials. ;)

[kroe1]

We've been using A Beka all along, and I have never seen the accusations put in that article. If they are in fact there, then they are grossly taken out of context because I would have remembered.

 

In regards to parents wanting a bigger decision in their kiddos' curriculum, so be it. I'm fortunate to get to choose my kiddos' curriculum. Just because a parent cannot homeschool or afford private education does not mean he should be denied the same choices I have. If private vouchers will give that parent more choices, then I'm all for it.

 

Saying to a parent you cannot choose that curriculum because it has religious overtones is censoring, which our society has chosen recently to do in public education with a continued broadening of the definition of "separation of church and state". I remember the teacher reading the Bible every day in my public elementary school years.

 

:)

[Kathryn]

We've been using A Beka all along, and I have never seen the accusations put in that article. If they are in fact there, then they are grossly taken out of context because I would have remembered.

 

In regards to parents wanting a bigger decision in their kiddos' curriculum, so be it. I'm fortunate to get to choose my kiddos' curriculum. Just because a parent cannot homeschool or afford private education does not mean he should be denied the same choices I have. If private vouchers will give that parent more choices, then I'm all for it.

 

Saying to a parent you cannot choose that curriculum because it has religious overtones is censoring, which our society has chosen recently to do in public education with a continued broadening of the definition of "separation of church and state". I remember the teacher reading the Bible every day in my public elementary school years.

 

:)

 

Your child is 11. These quotes are from high school texts.

 

The government not paying for your religious instruction is not censorship. Censorship is saying you can't read it or make it.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

We've been using A Beka all along, and I have never seen the accusations put in that article. If they are in fact there, then they are grossly taken out of context because I would have remembered.

 

In regards to parents wanting a bigger decision in their kiddos' curriculum, so be it. I'm fortunate to get to choose my kiddos' curriculum. Just because a parent cannot homeschool or afford private education does not mean he should be denied the same choices I have. If private vouchers will give that parent more choices, then I'm all for it.

 

Saying to a parent you cannot choose that curriculum because it has religious overtones is censoring, which our society has chosen recently to do in public education with a continued broadening of the definition of "separation of church and state". I remember the teacher reading the Bible every day in my public elementary school years.

 

:)

 

Your oldest child is 11? Isn't it possible that you haven't encountered all those examples yet because you've not taught above the elementary level?

[PiCO]

Seriously, Mother Jones attacking Bob Jones? Aside from the name issues, these are organizations on completely opposite ends of any spectrum you might find out there. Surprise! They hate each other!

 

And talk about an agenda- the paragraph title says "Mark Twain and Emily Dickinson were a couple of hacks: " but the quotes from Abeka and Bob Jones just talk about how Twain and Dickinson were not saved, or doubted the bible, or had a "veiled disrespect for authority..." None of these quotes indicate to me that the aforementioned authors were "hacks." (Going to hell, sure- but not hacks.)

 

And I love this- first they accuse these textbooks of saying 5. Slave masters were nice guys and then 8. SCOTUS enslaved fetuses. Wait, I thought slave masters were nice? Maybe enslaving fetuses isn't so bad after all.

 

 

I'm an atheist and definitely on board with the separation of church and state, but I do support vouchers. I think parents should be allowed to choose a religious education for their child (any religion,) and I should be able to choose to educate my child in a classical manner and not fill her full of leftist goo. However, being a fiscally conservative atheist puts me on the outside of pretty much any group, so take my opinion with a grain of salt!

[Zebra]

Seriously, Mother Jones attacking Bob Jones? Aside from the name issues, these are organizations on completely opposite ends of any spectrum you might find out there. Surprise! They hate each other!

 

And talk about an agenda- the paragraph title says "Mark Twain and Emily Dickinson were a couple of hacks: " but the quotes from Abeka and Bob Jones just talk about how Twain and Dickinson were not saved, or doubted the bible, or had a "veiled disrespect for authority..." None of these quotes indicate to me that the aforementioned authors were "hacks." (Going to hell, sure- but not hacks.)

 

And I love this- first they accuse these textbooks of saying 5. Slave masters were nice guys and then 8. SCOTUS enslaved fetuses. Wait, I thought slave masters were nice? Maybe enslaving fetuses isn't so bad after all.

 

 

I'm an atheist and definitely on board with the separation of church and state, but I do support vouchers. I think parents should be allowed to choose a religious education for their child (any religion,) and I should be able to choose to educate my child in a classical manner and not fill her full of leftist goo. However, being a fiscally conservative atheist puts me on the outside of pretty much any group, so take my opinion with a grain of salt!

 

I think it's a dangerous thing to just blindly trust a facebook post. And even more dangerous to label people because they use a certain curriculum.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Someone recently shared this essay with me, by SWB, in which she mentions her own experience with and impression of Abeka curriculum. I found it very interesting, so I'm happy to share it here:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/reflections-on-education/a-golden-oldie/

[Kathryn]

I think it's a dangerous thing to just blindly trust a facebook post. And even more dangerous to label people because they use a certain curriculum.

 

It's not a Facebook post, it was an article that someone linked to on Facebook. Facebook has nothing at all to do with it. I'm not blindly following it either. Besides reading a lot about both of these companies over the years, I actually bought all of the A Beka history books when I found them for very cheap at a used bookstore. I can't quote because I threw them away because I was so disgusted by what I read in them, but the quotes posted are absolutely in line with what I read.

[Peaceful Isle]

I didn't read the other posts...have to get back to homeschooling! ;)

 

But,....here is my view on Abeka History. I grew up on it. I can't believe how much History I DON'T know. It is amazing. My kids will ask me questions about people in the middle ages and such, and I give the same standard answer.."well, let's read and find out."

 

I won't get into the different statements they teach as "fact"... Just wanted to share my experience with it.

[radiobrain]

 

I'm an atheist and definitely on board with the separation of church and state, but I do support vouchers. I think parents should be allowed to choose a religious education for their child (any religion,) and I should be able to choose to educate my child in a classical manner and not fill her full of leftist goo. However, being a fiscally conservative atheist puts me on the outside of pretty much any group, so take my opinion with a grain of salt!

 

LOL! We are few and far between, that's for sure! :D

 

Except, I am an agnostic.

[FaithManor]

The question at hand is not "should people have the freedom to buy such curriculum and teach it to their children", but should tax dollars be used to promote the use of such curriculums.

 

I am a huge FAN of school choice and educational options for parents.

 

But, I have to question the constitutionality of using public funds for religious schools in which the children will be basically taught that the Bill of Rights is only for white people. There, I said it.

 

 

Here is a direct quote from a BJU high school history text - “To help them endure the difficulties of slavery, God gave Christian slaves the ability to combine the African heritage of song with the dignity of Christian praise. Through the Negro spiritual, the slaves developed the patience to wait on the Lord and discovered that the truest freedom is from the bondage of sin.â€

 

You know the thing that really jumps out at me about that passage (okay, well all of it is a bit nauseating)? The use of the word "difficulties". Hmmm...you know, that being a slave was like having a check bounce at the bank, or a car repair you can't afford, or a job interview that didn't go well, or ....you know...the slaves had mere difficulties! :glare: It makes me sick.

 

 

From an A.C.E. text - “The seed of error that took root during the fourth and fifth centuries blossomed into the Roman Catholic Church -- a perversion of biblical Christianity.â€

 

I supposed the RCA could call my faith a perversion, but thankfully, they seem to be much more Jesus like in their pronouncements!

 

From A.C.E. on Aparteid - “For many years, the four racial groups were separated politically and socially by law. This policy of racial separation is called `apartheid’. South Africa’s apartheid policy encouraged whites, Blacks, Coloureds, and Asians to develop their own independent ways of life. Separate living area and schools made it possible for each group to maintain and pass on their culture and heritage to their children.â€

 

Yeah, I guess getting the cr&p kicked out of you for standing in front of a "white business', having your homes burned, and being wrongfully imprisoned and tortured, is you know "beneficial" socially and politically.

 

From BJU - “the [Ku Klux] Klan in some areas of the country tried to be a means of reform, fighting the decline in morality and using the symbol of the cross… In some communities it achieved a certain respectability as it worked with politicians.â€

 

IF it achieved any measure of respectability in politics, that alone should make every American weep and feel sick in the pit of their stomachs. As for fighting moral decline, the only "moral decline" I can think of that they fought was "slavery and genocide" meaning that they were all for it and dang angry that others thought it was "bad".

 

Having narrowly survived a fundamentalist school using A.C.E. curriculum I can tell you that the history is RIFE with this kind of sentiment. I don't know if the cartoons that were included have been rewritten since my graduation, but at the time I attended, the cartoons also portrayed racially segregated schools. White kids at one Christian school; black kids at the other...the twain did not meet. Having b.t.d.t for 2.5 years of high school, I can honestly say that I am 100% against public monies being used to undermine the civil rights movement and the Bill of Rights. I cannot condone the use of tax dollars to assist in the portral of racism, slavery, relgious hatred, and violent oppression as positive or for the public good. I think we should prefer facts instead of racist, revisionist commentary.

 

 

Likewise, I would not want public monies used to support a school that used texts teaching Jihad as good or that rewrote history to make Lenin and Stalin out to be great guys instead of the murderers they were! That is not in the best interests of this nation and its people either. If those texts appear on the public or private circuit, they should be REVILED as well.

 

People can use what they want on their own dollar. I readily support that ideal even if I don't like what they choose. But on the public dole, then we better stick to the cold, hard facts.

 

 

Faith

[newlifemom]

Devil's advocate here. :D

 

 

What about public funding for something like [hope I get the name correct] Everyday Math? Isn't the the math that is used a lot in schools that is so terrible it is leading people to afterschool and even homeschool?

 

I suppose it may be an apples and oranges thing as it isn't necessarily promoting a worldiew or religion, but still my understanding is that it is leading a lot of children to a life without a solid mathematical foundation. I hate the idea of paying money for programs that do not work.

 

back to your regularly scheduled debate.

 

 

Oh, btw I always understood the Abeka grammar to be a solid program. I think SWB even recommened it for a long time.

 

One more thing, I won't use BJU for many reasosn, one I am married to a Chinese man [taboo until very recently for them] and I do like their Bible program.

 

 

ftr I am one of those wacky ye creationists. :tongue_smilie:

[Soror]

The question at hand is not "should people have the freedom to buy such curriculum and teach it to their children", but should tax dollars be used to promote the use of such curriculums.

 

I am a huge FAN of school choice and educational options for parents.

 

But, I have to question the constitutionality of using public funds for religious schools ........

 

Likewise, I would not want public monies used to support a school that used texts teaching Jihad as good or that rewrote history to make Lenin and Stalin out to be great guys instead of the murderers they were! That is not in the best interests of this nation and its people either. If those texts appear on the public or private circuit, they should be REVILED as well.

 

People can use what they want on their own dollar. I readily support that ideal even if I don't like what they choose. But on the public dole, then we better stick to the cold, hard facts.

 

 

Faith

:iagree: I'm not a fan of public monies going towards religious education period because if we support one viewpoint I don't know how we cannot support all the various viewpoints. I do think it good to guard against religious bashing in texts as well.

[Juniper]

This has been a very interesting thread to read. I will be honest that I came into it being pro-voucher, even after reading the article question.

 

You know what though? I am still pro-voucher, but I think there should be qualifications. I think there needs to be a thorough vetting process and approved lists (not only secular, because being secular does not equal factually accurate) that the parent can choose from.

 

There might be an uproar from the BJU and Abeka people, but ultimately money talks and I bet there would be some hefty editing going on by those publishers.

[radiobrain]

In my city, they have vouchers that if you live in an "academic emergency" school area, you can use them at any number of private/charter schools. It is up to the parent to choose which school they want the tax dollars to go to. If that parent wants to send their kid to a school using Abeka, or a Catholic school, French immersion, or any other approved school on the list... they can. If the school district cannot provide a decent education with the $$ they were already given, then I am totally cool with the parents going where they want. Whatever the curriculum or religion. The state had it's chance and failed.

 

The sad part is that my neighborhood is one of these areas, and ALL parents have this same choice, and most choose to leave their kid in a crappy school. :tongue_smilie: They can even send them to any number of high performing public magnets, and don't.

[Zebra]

It's not a Facebook post, it was an article that someone linked to on Facebook. Facebook has nothing at all to do with it. I'm not blindly following it either. Besides reading a lot about both of these companies over the years, I actually bought all of the A Beka history books when I found them for very cheap at a used bookstore. I can't quote because I threw them away because I was so disgusted by what I read in them, but the quotes posted are absolutely in line with what I read.

 

I bought and disliked BJU history. But, that's the case for every single history program I have ever seen. They all have some agenda. It's a terrible subject for neutrality, across the board.

 

However, we use and really like BJU English, and Science. I stayed away for years because of BJU's "reputation" and I wish I hadn't been so swayed by public opinion. I get really tired of people thinking certain things about me because I use BJU for a couple of subjects. I don't fit into any certain box...I'm not a racist, I don't belong to some "fundie cult". I have used many, many, crappy/bad fit curriculums over the years and it's been a relief to find these.

 

I wouldn't boycott JCPenney because Ellen is their spokesperson, and I wouldn't stop eating at Chick-Fil-A because their owner doesn't support gay marriage. I shop at JCPenney because I like their clothes, and I eat at Chick-Fil-A (in theory) because I like chicken. I use BJU English because I love the way the program teaches writing and grammar. I use BJU science because I haven't found anything better, and it's colorful and interesting. I haven't seen a single controversial thing in either the English or the Science, so I will continue to use them. The history was too much for me, so I don't use it.

 

I have no interest in defending Abeka or BJU. I just am trying to explain that there are some normal, reasonable human beings out there who like BJU or Abeka curriculum.

[MusicMama]

Faith,

 

But cold, hard history facts rarely exist! Certainly not a whole book full of them. Were Twain and Dickenson crocks or literary giants? Opinion. Many of the other claims are based on religion. They are accepted on faith, regardless of fact, and hard to prove or disprove to the believer. I do not agree with the claims made in the texts listed, but understand that History is a "dirty" science, messy and impossible to separate from the point of view of the author. Science is less so, but simple facts do leave much up to interpretation.

 

What is the solution? I don't know. I don't like having my tax money going to support the teaching of radical ideas from either the liberal or conservative end of the spectrum. One positive side of the voucher system, of which I am not fond of, is that at least the parents have more choice about what their child will learn. If they are going to learn something that I disagree with, at least the parents feel they are doing right by their child.

 

On another note, I was raised with the BJU/ABeka Books as a homeschooling child. That was pretty much all my mom could get. She doesn't use it now for my younger sibs, and I'm happy to say that I escaped without absorbing the extreme worldview put forth in the history and science texts. I am adamantly against using any textbook to teach my children religion. That's my job, not the (Science, History, Health, Literature...etc) book's job. I want the text to present material, not use it to "prove" the Bible or some other religious idea. And of course, I spend a lot of time searching for a text to meet my many criteria. :)

 

A little music, shall we?

 

WIZARD

(spoken) Elphaba, where I'm from, we believe all sorts of

things that aren't true. We call it - "history."

 

(sung) A man's called a traitor - or liberator

A rich man's a thief - or philanthropist

Is one a crusader - or ruthless invader?

It's all in which label

Is able to persist

There are precious few at ease

With moral ambiguities

So we act as though they don't exist!

[LucyStoner]

Did anyone notice that the original post pulled out one-sentence excerpts from the texts? I'll bet I could do the same thing with all kinds of secular textbooks and they would look completely different from the original intent.

 

There is no context I can think of that makes most of those statements acceptable as facts to teach to children. There is no respectability in the KKK. There is no SQL without set theory. There is no way that the depression did not happen. The list goes on.

[FaithManor]

Faith,

 

But cold, hard history facts rarely exist! Certainly not a whole book full of them. Were Twain and Dickenson crocks or literary giants? Opinion. Many of the other claims are based on religion. They are accepted on faith, regardless of fact, and hard to prove or disprove to the believer. I do not agree with the claims made in the texts listed, but understand that History is a "dirty" science, messy and impossible to separate from the point of view of the author. :)

 

 

Oh I agree with you. My beef is with the stuff that really is factual being changed to support racism and the like. There is actually NO evidence that "The Trail of Tears" was used by God to bring Native Americans to Christ and the implication is that if it were, then what happened to them would be okay. They are claiming something that has absolutely no evidence and then twisting it support an ideal that is anti-Bill of Rights/Preamble to the Constitution, etc. and I think that should very much concern the taxpayers of America.

 

Absolutely, a lot is left up to interpretation. But, when things that are established fact, Columbus and the slave trade culminating in the genocide of an entire 8 million people by 1555, his own admission to what would be called today S*x trafficing and then portray him as a wonderful person... or Aparteid as beneficial...then we are subverting the public good.

 

Yep, some kids will come through a system like that and not absorb it. But, whether or not they absorb it isn't in my mind the question. The greater question is whether or not the public should pay for such curriculum. I'm pretty certain that if I'm a child zoned for Highland Park Schools, Wayne County, Detroit...I'd be pretty frightened to think it was okay to pay people to learn such "truths". I'm pretty certain that if I'm a Native American child in the public schools in Sioux Falls, I'd be horrified that tax dollars were used to fund such a perspective.

 

Again, I am all for choice and I'm not totally against the voucher system because frankly, the abysmal excuse of a PS down the road from me that got an F in public school rankings, needs some competition if that is what it will take for them to sit up, take notice, and stop sitting on their behinds doing the same exercise in futility over and over again. But, I think that these curriculums or any others that seek to subvert religious freedom and civil rights, should not be on the approved list for use of public funds.

 

This is an excellent discussion. I think in the end most of the Hive are probably in pretty close agreement but just not certain how to find a logical balance in what is admittedly, "A sticky wicket!"

 

Faith

[elegantlion]

I bought and disliked BJU history. But, that's the case for every single history program I have ever seen. They all have some agenda. It's a terrible subject for neutrality, across the board.

 

However, we use and really like BJU English, and Science. I stayed away for years because of BJU's "reputation" and I wish I hadn't been so swayed by public opinion. I get really tired of people thinking certain things about me because I use BJU for a couple of subjects. I don't fit into any certain box...I'm not a racist, I don't belong to some "fundie cult". I have used many, many, crappy/bad fit curriculums over the years and it's been a relief to find these.

 

I wouldn't boycott JCPenney because Ellen is their spokesperson, and I wouldn't stop eating at Chick-Fil-A because their owner doesn't support gay marriage. I shop at JCPenney because I like their clothes, and I eat at Chick-Fil-A (in theory) because I like chicken. I use BJU English because I love the way the program teaches writing and grammar. I use BJU science because I haven't found anything better, and it's colorful and interesting. I haven't seen a single controversial thing in either the English or the Science, so I will continue to use them. The history was too much for me, so I don't use it.

 

I have no interest in defending Abeka or BJU. I just am trying to explain that there are some normal, reasonable human beings out there who like BJU or Abeka curriculum.

 

but the viewpoint of a clothing retailer or a chicken sandwich do not indoctrinate. I can eat a chicken sandwich and buy at JCP and not even know the stance of the company or care. Their belief does not trickle down into their actual product.

 

However, if I used a textbook to teach my children, I feel obligated to understand the stance of the publisher. There is bias is textbooks, some of it is more subtle than the examples listed in the article. Their stance can permeate into all areas, their stance is not separate from their text, it's in the text, some moreso than others.

 

I live in area where many believe that if it quotes scripture it must be right. They (some) do very little research on their own, they just believe what they read or what they are taught. If you asked them to explain those beliefs, they couldn't.

 

If someone chooses to use BJU or Abeka, they should be educated and informed about the content, but great, it's their choice. However, there are many people simply using those products blindly without researching other companies or the stance behind those cute cartoon characters (we used Abeka for a few years).

[Onceuponatime]

I was interested in the set theory quote. This was article was posted in response to it: "What do Christian Fundamentalists Have Against Set Theory?"

 

 

Thanks for posting this article. I had never heard of this either. I use Abeka math for grades 1-8 because it works very well for us. We use secular for high school and there is set theory in that.

 

Does anyone know of a secular text book series for elementary and middle school math that uses an approach similar to Abeka? Saxon does not work for us at all.

 

I feel like heaving a great big sigh. I never used many Abeka texts except math and grammar, but I was sucked into the all the uber-fundamentalist science and some of the history (providential America) stuff in the first few years I homeschooled. I thought I had extricated myself from most of it. It appears there are a few bits and pieces left to deal with.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Onceuponatime

[stripe]

Which is an interesting question to consider - when is it OK for government schools to "challenge the student's fixed beliefs", given that it may indeed "undermine parental authority"? Is such "challenge" an integral part of education? Or can/should it be avoided when possible? Which beliefs must be left alone? Which can be challenged? Discuss. ;)

You remind me of a clip of a show I saw on teaching in the Netherlands of sex ed in particular. (It was in that same series on the website with the show on math in Hungary that MEP users like to use, which was at teachingchannel.org, but I can't find the clip I saw!) It was clearly emphasized that the schools wanted to basically create a Dutch point of view, and incorporate teenagers -- most particularly telling them (I saw this in the piece) that their parents may be telling them to do this or that, but they should think for themselves and should do x, y, or z. It was very different than the American approach in many ways. Clearly their idea of Dutch sexual behavior and attitude was being encouraged explicitly in the classroom.

[Slartibartfast]

Lied about what? My grandfather thought the government was jerking the farmers around and making things worse for them than they already were, and he didn't like being treated that way. How is that a lie rather than an opinion?

 

If you read it then what I was discussing should be clear.

 

I wasn't discussing my grandfather's opinion on what the government should have done, we were discussing how it says that the Great Depression was an exaggeration.

 

:001_huh: The Great Depression was faked? Seriously?

 

I find that stunning. How many of us have or had grandparents who spoke of the depression?

 

My grandfather and his siblings all picked cotton as children. We've made sacrifices and have had times where things were tight but I cannot imagine having my children pick cotton in 110+ degree heat day after day after day.

 

He said something once about his lunch was always a biscuit with bacon grease on it. Well sure I would eat that (:lol:) but everyday? That is all he ate for lunch?

 

I just don't get it. Why try to change the truth?

 

I think the reason they do this is to set up FDR as a horrible president. I've been hearing that often lately. You know, he started all those awful programs....blah blah...entitlement poo....

 

Trying to convince people that the Great Depression was fake is lying to them. If you are knowingly telling someone something that isn't true that is a lie. If my child said "I didn't lie about eating the cookies, I gave my opinion that I did not eat the cookies." They would be punished.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Sis

[Onceuponatime]

Someone recently shared this essay with me, by SWB, in which she mentions her own experience with and impression of Abeka curriculum. I found it very interesting, so I'm happy to share it here:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/reflections-on-education/a-golden-oldie/

 

Thank you.

[coffeefreak]

Did anyone else notice that many of the A Beka references are from old, outdated editions that are no longer published? I don't use A Beka or BJU history, but I would be curious to know if the new editions had the same theories/"facts" in them. What many people don't understand is any private school that is accredited by the state receives some state funding. This has become a hot topic here in NM because we have a private Christian school that received accreditation several years ago, uses A Beka in lower grades, and refused to allow a pre-schooler in for this year because his parents are gay. There is an uproar because this school does receive funding from the state because of its accreditation. The argument is, do they have the right to turn students away in light of that funding, especially based on the parent's sexuality.

 

I bring this up for two reasons. First, I think part of the reason for A Beka's new editions is so schools could use it and states would approve it. They know they have to tone it down to go mainstream. And second, states are already funding private schools, Christian and Non-Christian across the country, it's just a well kept secret. There are several Charter Schools that use A Beka here, and no one is questioning it.

 

As for Bob Jones, I have no comment. They don't care what other people think and I doubt they'll ever tone it down.

 

Dorinda

[angela in ohio]

Did anyone notice that the original post pulled out one-sentence excerpts from the texts? I'll bet I could do the same thing with all kinds of secular textbooks and they would look completely different from the original intent.

 

Short quotations, out of date citations... if it was anything but a critique of A Beka and BJU, more WTMers would cry foul. ;) The old dates make me assume that all of these items have been changed in more recent editions, though I don't have any of those texts to check. The short quotations make me assume that the context would make the quotes less powerful.

[Kathryn]

Short quotations, out of date citations... if it was anything but a critique of A Beka and BJU, more WTMers would cry foul. ;) The old dates make me assume that all of these items have been changed in more recent editions, though I don't have any of those texts to check. The short quotations make me assume that the context would make the quotes less powerful.

 

Do you know they are out of date? The links in the article went to the current editions oN the publisher websites on all but a couple of them, and those linked to older used editions.

[lionfamily1999]

Are vouchers meant to give parents a choice?

 

If the free school is failing and vouchers are given, then is parental choice one of the things implicit with the voucher?

 

Are tax dollars that go per student paying for specific lessons or to a general idea of education?

 

Are we paying for the classes or the student?

 

Is the idea that fixed ideals will be passed on, or that the student will acquire the tools to learn?

[radiobrain]

Short quotations, out of date citations... if it was anything but a critique of A Beka and BJU, more WTMers would cry foul. ;) The old dates make me assume that all of these items have been changed in more recent editions, though I don't have any of those texts to check. The short quotations make me assume that the context would make the quotes less powerful.

 

Given the source of the original article, this does not surprise me at all. However, also given what is being cited....finding something like these quotes doesn't surpise me either. I don't know if I would assume they had been changed...one might hope....but I wouldn't assume.

 

I would like to know WHY these older editions are quoted. Are there more recent editions or not? Did they just accept some free books someone had lying around? I doubt they would want to pay full price for new books, especially as they don't agree with most everything taught in them. Is it an innocent oversight or a nefarious attempt at its own form of propoganda? I can see it both ways. I would love it if someone asked the author of the article. <Personally, I would hope it is a case of sloppy journalism, but don't put anything past anybody.>

 

BTW, I wouldn't defend Abeka or BJU for my own reasons. I think there are so many better curriculum options now, that going with an all BJU or all ABeka shows a certain lack of effort, IMHO. But, with any curriculum, I'm sure there are parts that are just fine and perfect for some people, and if someone is happy with it, good for them. I'm just not one of them...I could probably pull out more examples than those used in the article, in newer editions, of things that bother me about them. Am I going to post a long article about that? No.

[FaithManor]

The quotes I posted from A.C.E. are from the paces currently being used down the road. When I did my one semester stint as a school guidance counselor and chemistry teacher (this past year) at a different private school, their curriculum committee asked me to look at the curriculum. They bought this year's additions of Paces.

 

I can't speak to all of the Abeka quotes in terms of editions, but the BJU quote is still in this edition's history book - dh found out the hard way at a garage sale in which he was thumbing through one of the local homeschooling family's used curriculum. I used that quote because it is the one he called me over to look at and our reaction was :001_huh: and then :glare:.

 

Faith

Edited August 9, 2012 by FaithManor
spelling...typing WAY too fast

[radiobrain]

What exactly are you reffering to? I could answer for my specific city and generally for my state.... This would be a state by state issue, not federal...so there isn't one answer to each of these questions.

 

I will answer what I know for MY area.

Are vouchers meant to give parents a choice? YES. If the local PS is considered one of a few degrees of under performing school, parents are able to choose from a certain number of approved schools to send their kid. They might not get into their first choice. It isn't like they get to choose ANY school.

 

If the free school is failing and vouchers are given, then is parental choice one of the things implicit with the voucher? Yes.

 

Are tax dollars that go per student paying for specific lessons or to a general idea of education? I don't quite understand this question. They are paying for the equivelent of the education they would get if the school were performing better. I will assume it would be something like "A fifth grade education"

 

Are we paying for the classes or the student? The student has a certain $$ amount attached to them. In our area it is around $4500. That is less spent than a year of schooling at the PS they are opting out of, and less than most private schools...but the private schools usually work out the difference with the family. By either waiving the fees, or working out a payment plan on the balance. So it is the student, not the classes.

Is the idea that fixed ideals will be passed on, or that the student will acquire the tools to learn? ???? What idea? Ideals? What is this even referring to? Sorry, this one is over my head.

Edited August 9, 2012 by radiobrain

[lionfamily1999]

What exactly are you reffering to? I could answer for my specific city and generally for my state.... This would be a state by state issue, not federal...so there isn't one answer to each of these questions.[/QUOte]

 

Answer for yourself :D

 

I have already seen this article on fb, the end result being lies are child abuse these vouchers therefore fund child abuse. Not much of a thoughtful back and forth, iow.

 

So I am asking here, where I know some are more disposed to discussion ;)

[coffeefreak]

Given the source of the original article, this does not surprise me at all. However, also given what is being cited....finding something like these quotes doesn't surpise me either. I don't know if I would assume they had been changed...one might hope....but I wouldn't assume.

 

I would like to know WHY these older editions are quoted. Are there more recent editions or not? Did they just accept some free books someone had lying around? I doubt they would want to pay full price for new books, especially as they don't agree with most everything taught in them. Is it an innocent oversight or a nefarious attempt at its own form of propoganda? I can see it both ways. I would love it if someone asked the author of the article. <Personally, I would hope it is a case of sloppy journalism, but don't put anything past anybody.>

 

BTW, I wouldn't defend Abeka or BJU for my own reasons. I think there are so many better curriculum options now, that going with an all BJU or all ABeka shows a certain lack of effort, IMHO. But, with any curriculum, I'm sure there are parts that are just fine and perfect for some people, and if someone is happy with it, good for them. I'm just not one of them...I could probably pull out more examples than those used in the article, in newer editions, of things that bother me about them. Am I going to post a long article about that? No.

 

Yes, there are more recent editions for the A Beka books (see my post above).;)

[Mrs Mungo]

We've been using A Beka all along, and I have never seen the accusations put in that article. If they are in fact there, then they are grossly taken out of context because I would have remembered.

 

The younger grades have similar issues, imo. But, if the bias is in your favor, then you are less likely to see it. If you were never taught the truth, then you are less likely to see it. The last convention that my dh attended with me (which, was a couple of years ago) found us at the A Beka table, dealing with issues like this. Not trusting my memory to explain these to you, I went to A Beka's website and used their "look inside" feature.

 

http://www.abeka.com/AbekaOnline/BookDescriptionPreview.aspx?sbn=108626

 

One of the pages available to view is page 47. They describe Jamestown, VA (founded in 1620) as the first lasting colony in Virginia. They also mention Plymouth, Massachusetts (1607). But, there is no mention that St. Augustine, Florida was the first lasting colony, settled in 1565. Why? Because it doesn't fit their "creation myth" of how the US came to be.

 

The next page describes how the King of England threw people in jail who did not believe as he did. There is no mention of the *fact* that by 1666 Puritans required membership in their church in order to vote (among other issues).

 

That sort of thing is *constant* in A Beka's history books. These aren't "religious beliefs," they are a deliberate omission of *facts* in order to support a narrative based on lies and deception.

 

In regards to parents wanting a bigger decision in their kiddos' curriculum, so be it. I'm fortunate to get to choose my kiddos' curriculum. Just because a parent cannot homeschool or afford private education does not mean he should be denied the same choices I have. If private vouchers will give that parent more choices, then I'm all for it.

 

Saying to a parent you cannot choose that curriculum because it has religious overtones is censoring, which our society has chosen recently to do in public education with a continued broadening of the definition of "separation of church and state". I remember the teacher reading the Bible every day in my public elementary school years.

 

How would you have felt about that, if you had been Jewish? How would you feel, if you lived in a predominantly Islamic area and the Koran was read to your children each day? The separation of church and state is there to protect *everybody*. Nobody is being "censored" because people can read whatever they wish, on their own time.

 

 

And talk about an agenda- the paragraph title says "Mark Twain and Emily Dickinson were a couple of hacks: " but the quotes from Abeka and Bob Jones just talk about how Twain and Dickinson were not saved, or doubted the bible, or had a "veiled disrespect for authority..." None of these quotes indicate to me that the aforementioned authors were "hacks." (Going to hell, sure- but not hacks.)

 

So, there is a prominent homeschool author whom I have heard speak on several occasions (and is not SWB). That person *repeatedly* affirms that Christians should not read the works of non-Christians, because you don't want those people informing your worldview. You can't learn anything from sinners. Christians should not read purely secular works of literature. So, it may not imply that they are "hacks," but there is *absolutely* an underlying current of, "they are too worldly, you should not read such works."

 

What about public funding for something like [hope I get the name correct] Everyday Math? Isn't the the math that is used a lot in schools that is so terrible it is leading people to afterschool and even homeschool?

 

I'm anti-EM. I think its adherents are wacky. I would advocate for the removal of the program.

 

Did anyone else notice that many of the A Beka references are from old, outdated editions that are no longer published?

 

The one I discussed up top is a current version. This stuff is throughout their history books, in particular.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Mrs Mungo]

Bartolome de las Casas? ...he;s the one that comes first to my mind. Here's his Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies Powerful, important reading.

 

Yes! Thank you, Eliana.

 

Bartolome de Las Casas was the first and fiercest critic of Spanish colonialism in the New World. An early traveller to the Americas who sailed on one of Columbus' voyages, Las Casas was so horrified by the wholesale massacre he witnessed that he dedicated his life to protecting the Indian community.

 

So, yes, there have always been people who thought such atrocities were wrong.