Kids not being allowed to dislike others?

[regentrude]

It's rude to comment on disliking someone. I would call my kids out for saying something like that. They do not have to like everyone, but they do have to be polite.

 

I agree it would be rude to walk up to the kids and tell them "I don't like you".

But commenting to a third party that there were two unnamed people she disliked? Not rude, IMO, but a matter-of-fact statement.

[regentrude]

I think it's incredibly mean not to give cards to everyone in this case....

 

Despite the give everyone a card thing, kids still have ways of signaling who they REALLY like a lot. In our HS group we did cards and my kids would write extra special things to their best buds.

 

But what is the point in giving everybody a card that basically says "you are my very special friend"? Then one might as well not do any because it is utterly meaningless.

[Soror]

I don't expect my kids to like everyone. I think it is a rude thing to say and would tell my child so. The child was asked about camp in general not about whether they liked certain people. I would tell them very simply it is rude to talk bad about someone. My kids aren't perfect in this manner as they are kids but it is an expectation we keep working on and I try to model this as well. I don't think it was good modeling to say in front of the other mom how bad the other kids were and how they were right not to have liked them. I don't think there was a need to defend it or such or explain. I would/do tell them later it is ok not to like someone but it is a rude thing to say to others, I think it is gossiping in that case. I don't like plenty of people for various reasons and they don't like me but I cannot see that as being an appropriate response unless specifically asked what I thought about somebody, and then it should be left at that not going into all about how horrible they are.

Edited July 25, 2012 by soror

[Alte Veste Academy]

But what is the point in giving everybody a card that basically says "you are my very special friend"? Then one might as well not do any because it is utterly meaningless.

 

Some Valentine's Day cards just say, "Happy Valentine's Day." ;)

[regentrude]

I agree with you. I was specifically addressing the comments about giving everyone in the class a valentine. Giving a valentine, for example, to everyone in the class except one person is exclusionary. I feel it's rude to exclude someone in such a manner.

 

 

Agreed. This is exclusionary and unkind.

 

But prohibiting from giving one to only one's best friend? Mandating a blanket declaration of love and friendship for 30 kids? That's stupid.

[regentrude]

It's been my observation that most bullies aren't unpopular but rather manipulative, social-savvy "queen bees" or jock types. They aren't angry with society but instead seek to manipulate it to get off on their power trips.

 

I don't buy the "oh, the poor bully is really the victim" stereotype because it so is NOT what I've observed over the past three-and-a-half decades.

 

:iagree:

We had first-hand dealings with bullying in middle school. The bullies were the popular girls. From all I have read on this topic, this was not a rare exception, but the typical pattern.

[ByGrace3]

I think it's more along the lines of that it isn't nice to talk about not liking someone. Not liking someone is just fine. But it shouldn't be brought up in conversation with anyone other than a parent.

 

:iagree: for me, talking unnessecarily and unkindly about another child is the "not kind" part. It is ok if we don't get along with everyone, and some people are impossible to get along with, but I think the issue is being kind to and about everyone whether they are kind or not.

 

I would say something to my child if they said they didn't "like" someone. I would explain that I understand they did things that were unkind and were not acceptable, but I would simpy encourage my child to be kind anyway and to be sensitive that you don't know that child's story. I am not going to encourage my child to be in a friendship with a child who is a bully, but I will encourage kindness to that child and about that child.

 

Our rules for speech:

 

Is it true? Is it kind? If you can't answer yes to is it kind then you must answer yes to "is it necessary?" or don't say it.

[swellmomma]

I think it's part of the "everyone's special" mindset. If we or our children are discerning, we're labeled "judgmental" and we can't have that!

 

:iagree:

 

As well if your children say they don't want to play with someone because they don't like them they are called bullies.

 

While I certainly want my children being rude towards another child I want them to learn that not everyone has to like each other to get along, and that not everyone is going to like them. Hard thing to cope with in the real world as an adult, if for the first 18 years of your life you are taught that everyone must like everyone, and/or that you are so dang special that everyone will like you. It just doesn't work out that way.

[astrid]

It's been my observation that most bullies aren't unpopular but rather manipulative, social-savvy "queen bees" or jock types. They aren't angry with society but instead seek to manipulate it to get off on their power trips.

 

I don't buy the "oh, the poor bully is really the victim" stereotype because it so is NOT what I've observed over the past three-and-a-half decades.

 

Okay.

 

But I"m not saying that "the poor bully is really the victim." I'm saying that unpopular kids who are the targets of intentionally exclusionary practices sometimes feel powerless, and so seek ways to remedy that by engaging in behavior that can be percieved as negative.

 

Of course there are socially manipulative queen bees and jocks. And they thrive on the power they wield. But sometimes that kid who was NEVER made to feel special in any way, who was always marginalized becomes a bigger threat than a queen bee ever thought of being.

 

astrid

[Seshet]

I don't expect my kids to like everyone. I think it is a rude thing to say and would tell my child so. The child was asked about camp in general not about whether they liked certain people. I would tell them very simply it is rude to talk bad about someone. My kids aren't perfect in this manner as they are kids but it is an expectation we keep working on and I try to model this as well. I don't think it was good modeling to say in front of the other mom how bad the other kids were and how they were right not to have liked them. I don't think there was a need to defend it or such or explain. I would/do tell them later it is ok not to like someone but it is a rude thing to say to others, I think it is gossiping in that case. I don't like plenty of people for various reasons and they don't like me but I cannot see that as being an appropriate response unless specifically asked what I thought about somebody.

 

I don't see saying "I don't like someone" as talking bad about the person. It is stating a fact, about me. I do not like that person. Just like I do not like liver or Rap music. That is not talking bad about the person or thing I don't like. Now, if she had said "They were annoying," that would be talking bad about them.

[SKL]

My kids' preschool/kg/summer day camp refers to all classmates as "friends." So yes, I think that is the trend nowadays.

 

Maybe it would be more "acceptable" for kids to speak in terms like "two of the girls were not very nice to others."

 

Personally I would rather not hear my kids saying they don't like someone, but rather talk about what it is about them that makes them difficult to deal with (and how they might handle that better). Everyone has their issues. It is true that often, once you get to know someone, you find them more likeable (or sometimes, less likeable).

[Rivka]

I think it's more along the lines of that it isn't nice to talk about not liking someone. Not liking someone is just fine. But it shouldn't be brought up in conversation with anyone other than a parent.

 

I don't expect my kids to like everyone, but I also don't expect them to announce it to casual aquaintances when they don't :) [...]

 

I think that's the type of thing you share with good friends in a private conversation, rather than something you say in response to a small talk question in public, kwim?

 

In response to your main question, no, I don't know anyone who expects their kids to like everyone in their peer group.

 

:iagree: I wouldn't be surprised or upset with a 7yo who said this - I would think it was par for the course. I would, however, gently correct my own child in that situation.

 

Our family just got back from a week-long family camp where the focus is on living in intentional community and interacting with people in a loving and accepting way. That doesn't come easy to me, y'all. It stretches my boundaries. I work on it every year. This year I made friends with a loud, popular, party person, the kind of person I would normally roll my eyes at and avoid. I thought she would dismiss me as boring and rigid, but she was great. I spent a lot of time talking to the guy who frustrates me because he undersupervises his kids, and came to appreciate his friendliness and the way his family made space for my kids to join in some wild, noisy fun that they don't usually get from us. A guy who is notorious for his sarcasm and bad, sometimes offensive, jokes showed me how extremely kind he can be, and struck up a friendship with my daughter which delighted her.

 

I don't pretend that I can do this with everyone, but it definitely enriches me when I push my limits of love and acceptance. I want my kids to do the same.

 

re: Invitations - these were rightly handled outside of class. I don't think anyone should be passing out party invitations in school even if everyone is invited. Though my kids don't go to school so don't really have this experience, they know not to talk about social events in front of someone who was not invited.

 

Right, this is one of the most firmly established social rules. You don't talk about social events or issue invitations to social events unless everyone present is invited.

 

I think school Valentine's exchanges are either pointless (when everyone gives to everyone, by strict enforcement) or horrific (when it's a public popularity contest). If you want to have a class Valentine's Day observance, why not have all the kids make cards for people in nursing homes?

[astrid]

:iagree:

 

As well if your children say they don't want to play with someone because they don't like them they are called bullies.

 

While I certainly want my children being rude towards another child I want them to learn that not everyone has to like each other to get along, and that not everyone is going to like them. Hard thing to cope with in the real world as an adult, if for the first 18 years of your life you are taught that everyone must like everyone, and/or that you are so dang special that everyone will like you. It just doesn't work out that way.

 

I haven't seen that. I think that intentional hurting or intimidating of others is classified by many as bullying, but preferring not to play with someone? No, I've never seen that referred to as bullying.

 

And I think you mean you DON"T want your children being rude towards another child, right? :001_smile:

 

Just want to admit here, that though I'm a big grown up person, your avatar kinda scares me. :001_unsure: :leaving:

 

astrid

[Soror]

I don't see saying "I don't like someone" as talking bad about the person. It is stating a fact, about me. I do not like that person. Just like I do not like liver or Rap music. That is not talking bad about the person or thing I don't like. Now, if she had said "They were annoying," that would be talking bad about them.

My wording is imprecise. I find it to be rude and unnecessary. If someone asked me how I liked homeschool co-op and I said it was all great but I didn't like such and such most people would think that rude. How do you respond to that? Most would find it awkward like the other mom did in that situation, you either ignore or ask why which then leads to gossiping. I think people that do that come across harshly. Young kids are notorious for speaking exactly what is on their mind, it isn't always a good or wonderful thing to share every thought you think and teaching children that is just part of raising them.

[astrid]

:iagree:

We had first-hand dealings with bullying in middle school. The bullies were the popular girls. From all I have read on this topic, this was not a rare exception, but the typical pattern.

 

Yes, that's my experience as well. But maybe "bully" isn't the right term here. Marginalized kids who for whatever reason are not shown kindness from peers, and who feel powerless often manifest those feelings in sociopathic behavior.

 

I didn't want to name names because this is getting very far afield from the OP, but think Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris.

 

All I"m saying is that when one popular kid doesn't give a valentine to "Johnny," it makes it acceptable for other kids to leave him out. Not because they're bullies, or because they're unkind, but because they're kids. I think my role as a parent is to teach my daughter that although she may not forge a friendship with every single kid in her class, no one should be excluded or made to feel less than anyone else. Extending basic human kindness doesn't mean she has to schedule weekly playdates with them, but in our house, it doesn't mean that everyone in the 4-H club gets a Halloween bag or Valentine's card, or a kind word or smile or polite response or encouragement when they try something new. She doesn't have to like them. But she does have to be an example of kindness and fairness.

 

astrid

[Soror]

:iagree:

 

As well if your children say they don't want to play with someone because they don't like them they are called bullies.

 

While I certainly want my children being rude towards another child I want them to learn that not everyone has to like each other to get along, and that not everyone is going to like them. Hard thing to cope with in the real world as an adult, if for the first 18 years of your life you are taught that everyone must like everyone, and/or that you are so dang special that everyone will like you. It just doesn't work out that way.

 

I don't think allowing children to be rude facilitates learning that in anyway.

[K&Rs Mom]

I have to wonder-is it really typical to expect kids to like everyone, simply because they're in the same classroom or group?

 

No, I'm on your side. I tell mine to be polite even if they don't like someone, and I try to sympathize when they are in a group with someone who is just hard to get along with, but I make it clear that some people just don't get along and that's fine as long as you're not mean about it.

[astrid]

It is bullying when they convince the rest of the kids to exclude that one child that they 'prefer' not to play with, and also when they loudly state "I don't want to sit by him". Most of these cases are power plays by a clique leader toward someone who is perceived as a threat...iow if the clique followers actually play with the nice kid, who will be left to follow the clique leader, and how will the power trips be executed without the minions.

 

Yes, but those are hurtful actions. The actuall personal preference? No, I dont' see that as bullying. When they choose to intimidate others into shunning the victim, yes.

 

astrid

[regentrude]

My wording is imprecise. I find it to be rude and unnecessary. If someone asked me how I liked homeschool co-op and I said it was all great but I didn't like such and such most people would think that rude. How do you respond to that? .

 

See, to me the statement "Co-op is OK, but there are two women whom I do not like" to a third party who has no stake in the enterprise is something totally different from telling another participant "it is OK, but I really do not like Susan and Mary."

 

Why is it rude to tell a third party about my general feelings?

[Seshet]

My wording is imprecise. I find it to be rude and unnecessary. If someone asked me how I liked homeschool co-op and I said it was all great but I didn't like such and such most people would think that rude. How do you respond to that? Most would find it awkward like the other mom did in that situation, you either ignore or ask why which then leads to gossiping. I think people that do that come across harshly. Young kids are notorious for speaking exactly what is on their mind, it isn't always a good or wonderful thing to share every thought you think and teaching children that is just part of raising them.

 

The behavior of these girls obviously impacted the child's enjoyment of the camp experience. It is not rude to state that. In your example of the co-op, if there were other members whose behavior diminished your enjoyment of the co-op, it would not be rude to state that, either. If I asked someone how they enjoyed something and they mentioned a person or people who obviously made the experience less enjoyable than it would have been had those people not been there, I would probably respond with something about not letting one or two people ruin the experience for them or sympathy that the experience was tainted by someone else's rudeness. I, however, would not think the person rude for expressing their own feelings in a calm, rational manner.

[regentrude]

The behavior of these girls obviously impacted the child's enjoyment of the camp experience. It is not rude to state that. In your example of the co-op, if there were other members whose behavior diminished your enjoyment of the co-op, it would not be rude to state that, either. If I asked someone how they enjoyed something and they mentioned a person or people who obviously made the experience less enjoyable than it would have been had those people not been there, I would probably respond with something about not letting one or two people ruin the experience for them or sympathy that the experience was tainted by someone else's rudeness. I, however, would not think the person rude for expressing their own feelings in a calm, rational manner.

:iagree:

One thing that bothers me is the way the woman was dismissive about the girl's feelings. She negated the feelings of dislike and tried to convince her that her feeling is wrong and that she should and will feel differently.

 

How can the person even "be sure" she'd like them better if she knew them? That is presumptuous.

[Soror]

See, to me the statement "Co-op is OK, but there are two women whom I do not like" to a third party who has no stake in the enterprise is something totally different from telling another participant "it is OK, but I really do not like Susan and Mary."

 

Why is it rude to tell a third party about my general feelings?

 

The behavior of these girls obviously impacted the child's enjoyment of the camp experience. It is not rude to state that. In your example of the co-op, if there were other members whose behavior diminished your enjoyment of the co-op, it would not be rude to state that, either. If I asked someone how they enjoyed something and they mentioned a person or people who obviously made the experience less enjoyable than it would have been had those people not been there, I would probably respond with something about not letting one or two people ruin the experience for them or sympathy that the experience was tainted by someone else's rudeness. I, however, would not think the person rude for expressing their own feelings in a calm, rational manner.

 

I find it rude as it is unnecessary. The whole, if you don't have anything nice to say then don't' say anything at all. Why would someone need to know you don't like someone else? How is that helpful to anyone? I only see it as leading towards gossip. I gossip more than I should. I don't want to encourage that behavior. I can see discussing that with a parent as a way of working on feelings and behaviors. It is good for us to teach them how to deal with those type of situations but I don't see telling other people how you don't like someone else is helpful for that at all.

[Soror]

:iagree:

One thing that bothers me is the way the woman was dismissive about the girl's feelings. She negated the feelings of dislike and tried to convince her that her feeling is wrong and that she should and will feel differently.

 

How can the person even "be sure" she'd like them better if she knew them? That is presumptuous.

 

I don't agree with that either. I wouldn't do that and don't. I don't think there was a need to rationalize or dismiss on either end, either saying well you shouldn't feel that way because of X or you should because of Y. It is what it is. Dd has a friend and it is a constant struggle between the 2 as they are both drama queens and she has often said she doesn't like her and sometimes says it when she is around. I tell her it is rude to say regardless if she is there or not. I do talk to her about why she doesn't like her at times and how she can work on being assertive in those situations and telling her that she doesn't like certain actions. If my kids are treated poorly or are being treated poorly and complain to me then I tell them simply not to play with someone. If you try to resolve a situation and it doesn't work they have no obligation to try and be their friend.

[Catwoman]

 

Just want to admit here, that though I'm a big grown up person, your avatar kinda scares me. :001_unsure: :leaving:

 

When she tried using a different avatar for a short time, I was one of the people who asked her to change it back. :tongue_smilie:

[Seshet]

I find it rude as it is unnecessary. The whole, if you don't have anything nice to say then don't' say anything at all. Why would someone need to know you don't like someone else? How is that helpful to anyone? I only see it as leading towards gossip. I gossip more than I should. I don't want to encourage that behavior. I can see discussing that with a parent as a way of working on feelings and behaviors. It is good for us to teach them how to deal with those type of situations but I don't see telling other people how you don't like someone else is helpful for that at all.

 

What were her other options for answering? She was asked "How did you like piano camp?" She could lie and say she loved all of it. She could try to be vague and say she enjoyed most of it or mostly enjoyed it, which would likely lead to questions about what it was she didn't like. She could be honest, which is what she did. She could maybe have worded it differently saying that there were a few girls who she was not fond of or who she would not choose as friends, as opposed to "I did not like them at all!" (since some see being blunt as being rude). However, she was honest, and that is something we should encourage in our children. She did not like these girls. That is all she said. As long as she didn't trash them, go into a whole list of everything they did, etc., I don't see it as gossip, talking bad, or even being rude. She may need to work on wording in a more tactful way, but she is only 7. 7 year olds are not notorious for their tact & diplomacy.

[Seshet]

:iagree:

One thing that bothers me is the way the woman was dismissive about the girl's feelings. She negated the feelings of dislike and tried to convince her that her feeling is wrong and that she should and will feel differently.

 

How can the person even "be sure" she'd like them better if she knew them? That is presumptuous.

 

:iagree:

[Dmmetler]

:iagree:

One thing that bothers me is the way the woman was dismissive about the girl's feelings. She negated the feelings of dislike and tried to convince her that her feeling is wrong and that she should and will feel differently.

 

How can the person even "be sure" she'd like them better if she knew them? That is presumptuous.

 

That's the part that bothered me. Not that it wasn't the best thing for my DD to say, but that she was wrong with her feelings-that she wasn't allowed to not like someone, and that if she did, she'd made a mistake. Particularly since so many of the social skills activities we've done have focused on understanding how you're feeling and responding appropriately in the situation. In this case, DD may not have responded appropriately to the question (since, realistically, another mom trying to make conversation really didn't CARE about camp and only wanted to hear some social chit chat about "it was fine"), but telling her that she was wrong to feel dislike for the people who made her camp experience less enjoyable wasn't right, either-and I think that's one reason why I responded as I did-because, darn it, in this case, it was perfectly reasonable that she not particularly liked the way those kids had chosen to treat others, including her, that week. And if I hadn't validated DD's feelings, I know her-she would have internalized the idea that she was wrong to feel that way, and it would have turned into "I'm such an awful person for feeling that way" because she does not handle criticism well, especially from someone she feels like she knows-and when she's seen someone regularly and talks to them regularly, she feels that she knows them.

 

And DD (maybe because she's an only, maybe because a lot of times adults share more of her interests than kids her age do, maybe just because she's her) tends to struggle with talking to adults appropriately-she often has conversations with adults where it's obvious that they've forgotten that she's a child because of the topic on hand, but then, in a different context, is surprised when they react to her as a child. I suspect, in this case, she really wasn't thinking about talking to someone's mother-she was thinking about talking to "Mrs. L, who talks to me about computers". Just one more social skills area that obviously she hasn't mastered yet. Sigh....

[regentrude]

I find it rude as it is unnecessary. The whole, if you don't have anything nice to say then don't' say anything at all. Why would someone need to know you don't like someone else?

 

Why does the woman want to know how the girl liked camp if the girl is not allowed to give an honest answer? The fact that she disliked these two girls was obviously an important disclaimer to the general enjoyment. It affected how she felt about camp. If she is asked how she felt and simultaneous gets the message that it does not matter how she felt if she has anything but positive feelings, I do not consider this healthy.

 

The whole "say only positive things" is an extremely unhealthy attitude, IMO.

It is not a very far stretch to the teenage girl who will not tell that she is abused by her boyfriend, because, after all, that is not nice, so she should not speak up. Seeing how much damage is done especially in young women who do not learn to accept her feelings, this seems bad advice to me. o

Edited July 25, 2012 by regentrude

[Soror]

What were her other options for answering? She was asked "How did you like piano camp?" She could lie and say she loved all of it. She could try to be vague and say she enjoyed most of it or mostly enjoyed it, which would likely lead to questions about what it was she didn't like. She could be honest, which is what she did. She could maybe have worded it differently saying that there were a few girls who she was not fond of or who she would not choose as friends, as opposed to "I did not like them at all!" (since some see being blunt as being rude). However, she was honest, and that is something we should encourage in our children. She did not like these girls. That is all she said. As long as she didn't trash them, go into a whole list of everything they did, etc., I don't see it as gossip, talking bad, or even being rude. She may need to work on wording in a more tactful way, but she is only 7. 7 year olds are not notorious for their tact & diplomacy.

 

Yes, 7yo are not tactful or diplomatic. As I said I don't think it was a surprising thing for a 7 yo to say. Mine have said similar. I would however tell them that it was not a nice thing to say. Perfectly fine to feel that way, but nice to say, no I don't think so. Not all that is honest is necessary or nice, some people are "fat" or ugly but neither thing is a helpful thing to say. As I said I believe it is a process to teach them that. I would also hope that my children can learn to focus on the positive things in a situation and not the negative. I think that is a good skill to have. Personally, I tend towards the opposite and I wish my parents would have encouraged me to ignore others more and look to the bright side.

[Catwoman]

Personally, I would much rather teach my son to tell the truth as tactfully as possible, rather than to encourage him to lie, so I see nothing wrong with what dmmetler's dd said.

 

Would it have been preferable for her to lie, and to paint the perfect happy picture of every aspect of camp? :confused:

 

Sure, I know some people will say that if she didn't have anything nice to say, she shouldn't have said anything at all, but she was asked a direct question, and she told the truth. She didn't name names or go into detail about how she hated Girl A and Girl B and how she wished they'd drowned in the pond. She simply mentioned that she didn't like two of the girls at camp. (And it was a private conversation, where neither the two girls nor their parents were there.)

 

I don't see why this would be considered horribly rude or offensive... or even sort of rude or offensive.

[Soror]

Why does the woman want to know how the girl liked camp if the girl is not allowed to give an honest answer? The fact that she disliked these two girls was obviously an important disclaimer to the general enjoyment. It affected how she felt about camp. If she is asked how she felt and simultaneous gets the message that it does not matter how she felt if she has anything but positive feelings, I do not consider this healthy.

 

The whole "say only positive things" is an extremely unhealthy attitude, IMO.

It is not a very far stretch to the teenage girl who will not tell that she is abused by her boyfriend, because, after all, that is not nice, so she should not speak up. Seeing how much damage is done especially in young women who do not learn to accept her feelings, this seems bad advice to me. o

 

And my experience has been the opposite, with too much focus on the negative. I'm on the sensitive side and see the damage that can do as well. As I said I don't dismiss my children or their thoughts. They don't have to like me or anyone else all the time but that doesn't mean there isn't appropriate time or situations to express such things. As I also said if anyone is treating them poorly I tell them to stay away. I believe and (try) to teach them to be polite but that doesn't mean that you ignore boundaries.

 

eta: I think we all have different experiences and beliefs in life which color how we react. As I said my parents were always "negative nancys" talking about why they didn't like this person or that and the downside of everything in life and not the positive. I am very sensitive to others and will often let how others act, talk, think etc effect me more then it should. I wish my parents had not talked so much about negative things, I wish they would have encouraged me more to ignore others and make my experiences my own. So, that is how I *try* to parent.

Edited July 25, 2012 by soror

[Crimson Wife]

Out of curiosity, what do you think influences the creation of a bully? What causes an otherwise ordinary child to go on power trips if not a lack of power in his/her own life (whether real or perceived)? What causes a child to want to inflict pain on other children if not abuse and/or a lack of empathy in his/her own upbringing?

 

Temperament. Some people are simply far more self-centered and less empathetic than normal. If they have social deficits, they are considered to be on the Autism spectrum. If they are socially savvy, the diagnosis is typically Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The latter are the ones who tend to bully others.

[Denisemomof4]

Idk, but I don't expect my kids to "like" mean people. I expect them to follow the rules that we set for how to treat people, but they don't have to like them.

 

:iagree:

[swellmomma]

I haven't seen that. I think that intentional hurting or intimidating of others is classified by many as bullying, but preferring not to play with someone? No, I've never seen that referred to as bullying. In our old neighborhood, if a child said they didn't like someone, (not being nasty about it, but let's say telling sally they don't really like johnny and are going home instead when johnny wants to play the game) they are labelled as bullying johnny, and trying to make other kids stop playing with him. I saw it often not just with my own kids but in general on that street. As well many of the moms I know have teh rule that everyone plays or no one plays. Which I think is stupid, I agree not to exclude someone just to be nasty but let's say 2 girls want to play and neighbor J who they don't like wants to join in, they are forced to include her or everyone is sent home. My sister has this rule, my kids hate playing at her house because of it, becuase if let's say my two oldest are doing something, and the just turned 4 year old wants to join in they MUST make the game or whatever work to include that little one or be sent home.

 

And I think you mean you DON"T want your children being rude towards another child, right? :001_smile: suuure lol Yeah, I mean don't want them to be, too busy multitasking to pay attention to typos

 

Just want to admit here, that though I'm a big grown up person, your avatar kinda scares me. :001_unsure: :leaving:

 

astrid

 

Well I went through a couple other ones, and the majority of people asked for machine gun kitty to come back so there he is.

Edited July 25, 2012 by swellmomma

[mrs.m]

Personally, I would much rather teach my son to tell the truth as tactfully as possible, rather than to encourage him to lie, so I see nothing wrong with what dmmetler's dd said.

 

Would it have been preferable for her to lie, and to paint the perfect happy picture of every aspect of camp? :confused:

 

Sure, I know some people will say that if she didn't have anything nice to say, she shouldn't have said anything at all, but she was asked a direct question, and she told the truth. She didn't name names or go into detail about how she hated Girl A and Girl B and how she wished they'd drowned in the pond. She simply mentioned that she didn't like two of the girls at camp. (And it was a private conversation, where neither the two girls nor their parents were there.)

 

I don't see why this would be considered horribly rude or offensive... or even sort of rude or offensive.

 

It's not horribly rude. She's a child and I doubt that she meant any harm by it. But it wasn't the best thing to say. The question was about why the lady said what she said and this is our best guess. I know PS parents and they don't expect their kids to like everyone either, so I don't think it's a general trend.

 

And I think adults and older children can censor what they say without lying. I do it all the time in small talk situations. Granted that takes maturity and shouldn't be an expectation for a younger child while they are learning that skill.

 

ETA: I think the lady was pretty rude though to say it the way that she did. She was the adult in the situation and could have just said, "I'm sorry that you feel that way." :(

Edited July 25, 2012 by jannylynn

[mrs.m]

Why does the woman want to know how the girl liked camp if the girl is not allowed to give an honest answer? The fact that she disliked these two girls was obviously an important disclaimer to the general enjoyment. It affected how she felt about camp. If she is asked how she felt and simultaneous gets the message that it does not matter how she felt if she has anything but positive feelings, I do not consider this healthy.

 

The whole "say only positive things" is an extremely unhealthy attitude, IMO.

It is not a very far stretch to the teenage girl who will not tell that she is abused by her boyfriend, because, after all, that is not nice, so she should not speak up. Seeing how much damage is done especially in young women who do not learn to accept her feelings, this seems bad advice to me. o

 

I think that there are appropriate times to be completely honest and open. With your best friends, parents, sister, it's good to open up and talk about this stuff.

 

But with an aquaintance at dance class making small talk? Not really. And I think a parent can teach their children the difference without damaging their ability to speak up when something is wrong. And honestly, people can be jerks so they don't need to express their feelings and opinions to everyone.

[Heather in Neverland]

:iagree: I wouldn't expect my dd to like everyone, and I'm not going to force her to spent large quantities of time with people she doesn't like, but I would not be happy if she began to announce publicly that she doesn't like certain people. That's rude and unnecessary.

 

Exactly. I tell all my elementary students that they do not have to be best friends with everyone but they DO have to treat everyone (including people they don't like) with respect.

[sparrow]

I don't think the woman has given a second thought to this conversation. I think it was a knee-jerk response because, as I said before, it's an uncomfortable statement and she was deflecting. I'm certain she doesn't literally think *everyone* can be friends. It was just grown-up speak for, "Oh, let's not talk about people". No big deal.

 

I think it's completely understandable that a 7 year-old would say it. Again, no biggie. Personally, I would have used it as one of those learning experiences and said in the car, "Oh my glob (yeah, I watch Adventure Time :D), I thought those girls were total brats, too, but I think Mrs. Smith just wondered if you liked camp. Sometimes it makes people uncomfortable talking about people you don't like when those people aren't around". That's it. You don't have to worry about invalidating her feelings. You can share them. Privately.

 

Listen, my whole family knows how much I despise the neighbor kids, but no.one.else.does. :leaving:

 

I'm an only, too, and had problems trying to talk with adults on *their* level at a young age. My parents had to kind of help me find my place. That's something that is not talked about as much as all of the "an only is lonely" chat (not true). We're so used to talking with adults, and being included, that it can be off-putting to some.

 

:grouphug:

[angela in ohio]

Okay.

 

But I"m not saying that "the poor bully is really the victim." I'm saying that unpopular kids who are the targets of intentionally exclusionary practices sometimes feel powerless, and so seek ways to remedy that by engaging in behavior that can be percieved as negative.

 

Of course there are socially manipulative queen bees and jocks. And they thrive on the power they wield. But sometimes that kid who was NEVER made to feel special in any way, who was always marginalized becomes a bigger threat than a queen bee ever thought of being.

 

astrid

 

Dh taught for many years, and now comes in in the aftermath of many bullying/etc. situations to straighten things out. You are right on target. There are mean girls, but there are other bullies, imho. The stereotypical bully is the overweight, special needs, or low SES child who is targeted by other classmates and then becomes mean and abusive to them because of it. There is a lot of truth behind that.

[JennyD]

I don't think the woman has given a second thought to this conversation. I think it was a knee-jerk response because, as I said before, it's an uncomfortable statement and she was deflecting. I'm certain she doesn't literally think *everyone* can be friends. It was just grown-up speak for, "Oh, let's not talk about people". No big deal.

 

:

 

:iagree:

[astrid]

Dh taught for many years, and now comes in in the aftermath of many bullying/etc. situations to straighten things out. You are right on target. There are mean girls, but there are other bullies, imho. The stereotypical bully is the overweight, special needs, or low SES child who is targeted by other classmates and then becomes mean and abusive to them because of it. There is a lot of truth behind that.

 

Thank you--- I was beginning to think I was only making sense in my head.

 

astrid

[EthiopianFood]

The kids were forced to make Valentines for every.single.child in the class (thus reducing the value of a valentine to zero, because if everybody is "special", nobody is).

 

Being forced to attend public school was already awful enough for some of us, without having what is supposed to be a fun day turn into yet another display of the fact that we had no friends.

[Burger]

I went to elementary school in the mid '70's and the teachers sent home a class list with each kid. We had to make a valentine for everyone then.

 

astrid

 

 

What do you find wrong with this?

 

Our school's policy is the same, and I think it's the good one.

What about the new girl that just started and no one knows? The autistic boy with few friends? Should these children sit by and watch while the others open valentines? I've had two chidlren in those exact situations, and I'm grateful they were "forced" into getting valentines.

 

You don't have to like everyone for sure, but I do want to show common courtesy/kindness to others.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Burger

[KarenC]

And not everybody will like you. But, we are expected to be polite and considerate to everyone regardless of whether we like them or not.

 

Karen

[justLisa]

My husband has the same view. It took a couple of bosses over the years to tell him to stop being so "honest". It seems to be a cultural difference.

 

Your example, IMO, is a stretch. I think many people are aware that speaking up in an abusive, dangerous, etc. situation definitely does not have anything to do with being nice or not.

 

 

It is. DH is exactly the same way. He is SO literal it's ridiculous. He is very diplomatic at work, but if you ask him, he will tell you LOL. He has come a loooooong way learning the "white lies" in our marriage :tongue_smilie:. There was a time I know he really could tell me if I looked fat.

[justLisa]

During a meeting he would just lay it all out there what exactly he thought. That's how they roll in Germany. Here everyone sugar coats and says even the most scathing thing nicely. It's an art form. LOL

 

He is still known for his honesty. Some people either love that about him or don't.

 

Oddly he is not like that towards me. He always says stuff very carefully to me. I once asked him about that and he claimed it's because I'm so perfect. I doubt that's it....:lol:

 

We are the same way :D

[Alte Veste Academy]

What do you find wrong with this?

 

Our school's policy is the same, and I think it's the good one.

What about the new girl that just started and no one knows? The autistic boy with few friends? Should these children sit by and watch while the others open valentines? I've had two chidlren in those exact situations, and I'm grateful they were "forced" into getting valentines.

 

You don't have to like everyone for sure, but I do want to show common courtesy/kindness to others.

 

:confused: Astrid was responding to another poster. She was simply saying that the requirement for kids to give cards to everyone is not new. You should read the rest of the thread, as Astrid argued your exact point throughout.