5 yo girl who wants to be THE BOSS

[Erica in PA]

We have been having a lot of trouble with our 5yod, and I'm looking for anyone who's btdt. First, her strengths... very friendly, very social, extremely strong leadership skills, almost scarily perceptive beyond her years, creative, and a great performer. She is the kind of girl who can make friends *anywhere,* and have a little group following her within minutes. Friends and family are amazed when they go with us to a place we've never been, because when we leave we'll hear "Bye Libby!!! from several strange children along the way. Everyone knows her, and we've not met anyone ourselves!

 

Okay, so I had to share those positive traits first because for the past few weeks this girl has been driving me absolutely crazy. The primary problem is that it is her sole goal in life to be THE BOSS. This has always been a driving issue since she was a young toddler, but there are times when it flares up worse than usual, and the past few weeks have been just about unbearable. She is constantly trying to one up her older brothers (7 and 12 yo), and put them down while raising herself up.

 

Examples... just today, when her brother said, hey look at this picture of us (my two dss), she said, "Who cares?!" because she wasn't in it. When riding bikes, she tried to compete with one brother and laughed mockingly when he did something wrong on the bike. She has been ignoring me when I ask her to do something or ask for something, and is pretty much completely defiant. This morning I asked her to put down the kitten quickly because a visiting dog was about to attack them both, and I had to ask her four times, then YELL the fifth time, before she would do as I asked. They both could have been hurt, because of her disobedience.

 

She will never admit to being wrong, in any way. She will insist to the end that she was right, even when confronted with proof of her error. She does not lie, but she will refuse to see anyone else's side. If she does do something when I ask, she will do it slightly differently so that she can feel that she didn't do *exactly* what I asked.. i.e. if I tell her to say something (like apologize), she will purposely change the wording so that she is still in control. If I confront her about something, she will look for the very next opportunity to correct *me* for something. I.e., also today, she was carrying a bag of water and two pet fish at Walmart, I asked her to please put him in the cart, and when she finally did after being asked several times, she said, "HIM?!! You mean THEM!! There are TWO of them," and laughed mockingly.

 

I probably have better examples of all these things, but these were all from just today. They are typical of her behavior, though.

 

She is loud, and over the top, and completely demanding of attention, from everyone. Today her brothers and her cousin were laughing about something, and she started yelling over them about something totally unrelated, trying to break up their fun because she wasn't in on that particular joke. (And yes, I asked her why she was yelling, and that's what she told me-- *I* wanted to be the one laughing!!!)

 

So far these things haven't gone over to her interactions with her friends. She's very kind and friendly to them. But I am sure it will cross over eventually unless we get this under control.

 

Okay, most of you are now probably thinking, "Thank GOD I can't relate to problems like that with a dd!!" I don't think these are common problems to have, in a dd of this age. I have interacted with many, many children over the years, and I haven't met another little girl with this type of personality. But I'm hoping that maybe here there might be one or two who can relate, and who can tell me 1. What they did to try to help, and 2. That it all turned out all right in the end, and their overbearing young girl grew up to be a lovely young lady. I need some hope of that right now.

 

Thank you!

 

Erica

[Gretchen in NJ]

I like the book entitled "Parenting is Heart Work: by Turansky & Miller.

[laughing lioness]

Have you read, "The Way They Learn," by Cynthia Tobias Ulrich? She has a good section on the strong willed child in it. I think she actually devoted a book to the strong willed child...sounds like you have one;)

[Rose in BC]

 

Okay, so I had to share those positive traits first because for the past few weeks this girl has been driving me absolutely crazy. The primary problem is that it is her sole goal in life to be THE BOSS. This has always been a driving issue since she was a young toddler, but there are times when it flares up worse than usual, and the past few weeks have been just about unbearable. She is constantly trying to one up her older brothers (7 and 12 yo), and put them down while raising herself up.

 

Examples... just today, when her brother said, hey look at this picture of us (my two dss), she said, "Who cares?!" because she wasn't in it. When riding bikes, she tried to compete with one brother and laughed mockingly when he did something wrong on the bike. She has been ignoring me when I ask her to do something or ask for something, and is pretty much completely defiant. This morning I asked her to put down the kitten quickly because a visiting dog was about to attack them both, and I had to ask her four times, then YELL the fifth time, before she would do as I asked. They both could have been hurt, because of her disobedience.

 

She will never admit to being wrong, in any way. She will insist to the end that she was right, even when confronted with proof of her error. She does not lie, but she will refuse to see anyone else's side. If she does do something when I ask, she will do it slightly differently so that she can feel that she didn't do *exactly* what I asked.. i.e. if I tell her to say something (like apologize), she will purposely change the wording so that she is still in control. If I confront her about something, she will look for the very next opportunity to correct *me* for something. I.e., also today, she was carrying a bag of water and two pet fish at Walmart, I asked her to please put him in the cart, and when she finally did after being asked several times, she said, "HIM?!! You mean THEM!! There are TWO of them," and laughed mockingly.

 

I probably have better examples of all these things, but these were all from just today. They are typical of her behavior, though.

 

She is loud, and over the top, and completely demanding of attention, from everyone. Today her brothers and her cousin were laughing about something, and she started yelling over them about something totally unrelated, trying to break up their fun because she wasn't in on that particular joke. (And yes, I asked her why she was yelling, and that's what she told me-- *I* wanted to be the one laughing!!!)

 

So far these things haven't gone over to her interactions with her friends. She's very kind and friendly to them. But I am sure it will cross over eventually unless we get this under control.

 

 

Thank you!

 

Erica

 

I have always assumed some of these attributes were related to the fact that we adopted him at the age of four and prior to living with us he lived in a home where he was the king!! It is very difficult for us some days. I have spent alot of time praying for patience and praying for the wisdom not respond to this child (i.e. I try very hard not to respond to his cheeky responses, similiar to what you listed. He always has a response to make sure he's got the last word.)

 

Last year I went to see Gordon Neufeld author of Hold on to your Kids (love this book btw) and decided to implement some of his ideas i.e. reinforcing attachment between my son and myself (not that it was missing but most definitely when he pushes my buttons I have to leave the space or I'd snap). So, now when he gets into one of his arguing modes I make him stay close by me until he snaps out of it. I think what these kids need is more attention even though their very behaviour makes you want to lock them up in their rooms. So they find attention inappropriately.

 

I do see some improvement but he still thinks he knows everything and isn't afraid to vocalize it. I keep trying to model the appropriate responses (okay some days I'm a terrible model but I try.) I also limit my lecturing to him. I love to lecture (rant and rave) and I realize this isn't an effective parenting tool for any child but it's extremely ineffective with this personality type because they always have a come back. Interestingly, my child is also very intelligent and very creative. Maybe this personality combo results in these strong willed creatures. (Funny I have some strong willed tendencies as well so my mom thinks this is pay back time.)

 

I'm sure this isn't a huge help but I just want you to know that I've btdt and I understand the frustrations.

[ticklbee]

Erica, This sounds so hard...my sympathies are most definitely with you!

 

Examples... just today, when her brother said, hey look at this picture of us (my two dss), she said, "Who cares?!"

 

I would address this immediately by saying something along the lines of " your brother cares and you are being rude to him, please apologize"

 

She has been ignoring me when I ask her to do something or ask for something, and is pretty much completely defiant. This morning I asked her to put down the kitten quickly because a visiting dog was about to attack them both, and I had to ask her four times, then YELL the fifth time, before she would do as I asked. They both could have been hurt, because of her disobedience.

 

This is unacceptable. First time obedience is so important because of the potential for harm. Come up with a consequence for not obeying the first time, explain to dd what you expect of her - doing what you say the first time - explain what the consequence will be if she does not obey. Then FOLLOW THRU and be CONSISTENT!

 

She will never admit to being wrong, in any way. She will insist to the end that she was right, even when confronted with proof of her error. She does not lie, but she will refuse to see anyone else's side.

 

This sounds like pride. I have a dd who will argue to the ends of the earth that she is right, even when we both know she's wrong. Your dd knows on some level that she's not right - but won't admit it.

 

I don't know how you can humble your dd - but she needs to learn empathy. Is there some way she can serve the other members of your family? On a consistent basis? Something along the lines of "ds had a hard day. Why don't we do his chores for him tonight)."

 

If she does do something when I ask, she will do it slightly differently so that she can feel that she didn't do *exactly* what I asked.. i.e. if I tell her to say something (like apologize), she will purposely change the wording so that she is still in control.

 

I absolutely won't tolerate this kind of behavior and my dc's have tried it. If my dc's don't do it the way I told them to and I perceive it's because of a rebellious attitude...they have to do it again, and again until they have done it my way. I don't yell and scream but am very matter of fact about it. If they refuse, they can go to their rooms and not come out until they are prepared to do it right.

 

 

If I confront her about something, she will look for the very next opportunity to correct *me* for something. I.e., also today, she was carrying a bag of water and two pet fish at Walmart, I asked her to please put him in the cart, and when she finally did after being asked several times, she said, "HIM?!! You mean THEM!! There are TWO of them," and laughed mockingly.

 

I would address this in this way. "Well, you are right but you said it in a wrong way. I don't talk to you that way and you are not to speak to me in that way. Now, tell me that again, only speak politely."

 

I hope some of this might have helped you. I also have a difficult dd but she's 12. So I know what you are going through!

[Erica in PA]

Thanks, Rose. It is good to know that others have experienced this, and that it has gotten better, even if they aren't all the way there yet.

 

I almost wish that I could partially attribute my dd's attitude to having been allowed to rule the roost as a young child, but that's not the case here. We're more strict than lenient I'd say, though we're not overly strict, and we have never let her bad behavior slide. We've always addressed it, and tried to assign consequences. The problem is that she cares far more about getting her chance to do what she wants in the moment, than she does about consequences later.

 

Erica

[Erica in PA]

Thank you, Melissa! I appreciate your sympathy! :001_smile: I like your suggestions, and actually we do handle things mostly in the way you described. I did say something very similar to her about the pictures, and as an additional consequence for being rude, I told her she was not allowed to look at the rest of them. When she laughed at her brother mockingly about the bike riding, I told her she had lost her privilege to ride bikes, and explained why what she did was unkind. I also do have her redo things until she has done them the way I asked (when I can see that she's done it differently on purposely to avoid obeying completely.) You are right when you said that the main issue here is pride. I completely agree with you, and I talked to her about that very thing this morning.

 

I really liked your suggestion for what to say when she speaks disrespectfully. I like that better than what I said, which was pretty much, "That was rude. You may not speak to me that way." What you suggested was better, especially having her re-say what she said incorrectly the first time. I will try to remember that-- unfortunately I am sure I will have lots of opportunities to try it out!

 

What would you suggest as a consequence for not obeying the first time? What has worked for you in that area?

 

Thanks!

Erica

[summer]

I think anyone who has ever had a 5 yr old has btdt. My 4 yr old will hold up a kitty cat and say it is a dog and he knows it is not a dog, but try to make us repeat back that it is a dog. Sometimes, it is something we have to stop, when he is doing something wrong. But when he wants to just pretend the cat is a dog, fine. I know he is being bossy and such, because it was not so much in a playful fun way but rather a make it clear to me which way is up kind of way.

 

I wish I had better advice for you though. I think with consistency and such, she will improve.

[Pamela H in Texas]

First, I agree that she should just be told that others DO care and that rudeness is not acceptable. She can apologize (or take a break until she's ready to apologize for her rudeness). This is just a training thing.

 

As for obedience....this has GOT to be done on EVERYTHING, not when it's a danger issue. You MUST have "mommy power" EVERY time you tell her to do something (and you may have to come up with a few things for a time to practice--she sounds a bit determined!). "mommy power" means that either you "help" her comply immediately OR her world stops INSTANTLY and until she complies fully. This way, she minds when she IS in a dangerous situation.

 

You should never be telling her three times, raising your voice, threatening consequences, punishing her INSTEAD of just having her comply. I know that "all parents" do those things but strong-willed children need BETTER and in order for your home to become more peaceful, you must do better than "all parents." People with average or just "challenging" kids have NO clue what we go through. Good discipline can be used with ALL kids but it MUST be used with these tougher ones. We only have the same 16-21 years that everyone else has. We gotta do the work.

 

Make sure you save your stressed, louder voice for when it counts. If you are having her comply first time every time, you won't need it except in dire situations.

 

One thing I do on the few occasions my son does get the better of me is simply to say, "I'm unable to continue showing the fruitage of the spirit if I keep talking to you about this." I want HIM to learn to do that! But again, this should be very rare once you get down the first time, every time obedience. Later, you'll teach her to 'argue acceptably" and give her that privilage first after she complies then later before....but you're probably a couple months away from that. Until then, "it's not up for discussion" and walk *away* though that is not necessarily far if you also have to have "mommy power." It's just a line to walk right now.

 

On doing things "her way." Honestly? 5 is a time of growth and a time when kids need more independence. Unless it matters, I wouldn't give it one iota of attention. My ds hated socks with a passion. We usually let him go without. When we did have him wear them, it would DRIVE ME NUTS that he put them on incorrectly (ie, the heal not matching his heal, etc). I did not give him the satisfaction of knowing it drove me nuts though. His problem and I let him own it. Same with towels. I like it done a certain way and I taught my kids to do it that way. However, the towels in their bathrooms? Why would I even care? So I don't tell them it drives me nuts to not be done "correctly."

 

Give her as much choice, independence, opportunity, responsibility as possible. I've said it a million times but a lot of people do this backwards. They wait til the kid shows they are mature enough to give those things. Instead, give them these things and watch them step up to the plate.

 

As I read another part, I see an issue of you not requiring obedience. You really can't get mad at her for taking advantage when you haven't trained her. Just get back on track and her little rear will follow in line also....

 

BTW, on the correcting you? I'd be SUGARY sweet. "why, yes, ma'am. I believe you are right. Thank you so very much!" Isn't that what we do with onery adults? We kill them with kindness. Really, think about it. There is a small fire. You can either fan it or you can douse it with water.

 

One more thing that I'd implement would be each of you blessing one another. If she is looking for ways to be extra kind and sweet towards someone, it's that much less she's thinking of being ugly, mean, rude, etc.

 

I hope this helps a little :)

[Erica in PA]

As for obedience....this has GOT to be done on EVERYTHING, not when it's a danger issue. You MUST have "mommy power" EVERY time you tell her to do something (and you may have to come up with a few things for a time to practice--she sounds a bit determined!). "mommy power" means that either you "help" her comply immediately OR her world stops INSTANTLY and until she complies fully. This way, she minds when she IS in a dangerous situation.

 

 

 

You should never be telling her three times, raising your voice, threatening consequences, punishing her INSTEAD of just having her comply.

Make sure you save your stressed, louder voice for when it counts. If you are having her comply first time every time, you won't need it except in dire situations.

 

Until then, "it's not up for discussion" and walk *away* though that is not necessarily far if you also have to have "mommy power." It's just a line to walk right now.

 

On doing things "her way." Honestly? 5 is a time of growth and a time when kids need more independence. Unless it matters, I wouldn't give it one iota of attention. My ds hated socks with a passion. We usually let him go without. When we did have him wear them, it would DRIVE ME NUTS that he put them on incorrectly (ie, the heal not matching his heal, etc). I did not give him the satisfaction of knowing it drove me nuts though. His problem and I let him own it. Same with towels. I like it done a certain way and I taught my kids to do it that way. However, the towels in their bathrooms? Why would I even care? So I don't tell them it drives me nuts to not be done "correctly."

 

 

As I read another part, I see an issue of you not requiring obedience. You really can't get mad at her for taking advantage when you haven't trained her. Just get back on track and her little rear will follow in line also....

 

 

 

 

Hi Pamela! I wish I knew how to quote each sentence I was referring to individually, but since I don't I'll just do my best here. How do you suggest attaining the first time obedience, without consequences? Can you explain how that would work? When a dc does not immediately comply, what do you believe should be done?

 

As far as doing things her way goes, it's not little things like wearing what she wants, etc. It's more willful disobedience than that. It's not an issue of her so much doing what *she* wants, as purposely *not* doing what I asked of her. Usually the only thing she *wants* is to not do what I asked. It's purely about the power. An example might be, when I ask her to put her clothes away, she will purposely leave one thing in the middle of the floor, so that she can feel that she did not do *everything* as I've asked. I could ask her to put that one thing away, and she would put another thing somewhere else out on the floor. She likes to feel that she has one-upped me in some way.

 

I have to admit to bristling a bit when I read the last bit of your post that I quoted above. It makes it sound as though dh and I have done nothing to train our dd, when I know that we have. I didn't mention in my post what I did after each of those incidents. I didn't just let it all slide. We do consistently talk to, disciple, and train our children, and our approach has been wonderfully successful with our two boys. We are willing to tweak what we are doing with dd, because it seems necessary, but no one would look at how we parent in real life and accuse us of not training our children. If I've given that impression by my post, it was not accurate.

 

But since I am interested in trying some new ideas with my dd, I would like to hear your thoughts especially regarding first time obedience without consequences.

 

Thank you!

 

Erica

[Remudamom]

Forgive me if I'm repeating, but it looks like two problems to me. Disobedience and a heart issue. The heart issue is going to take lots of talking, praying, discussion. The disobedience is very telling- you had to tell her four times then yell the fifth? You're the problem there. Tell her once then spank her. All you're doing by telling her over and over is teaching her that she doesn't have to obey until you lose it.

 

 

Everytime she pulled her one upmanship, unkind to brothers I'd send her to her room. Make it clear that if she is unkind, she's isolated.

[Erica in PA]

Forgive me if I'm repeating, but it looks like two problems to me. Disobedience and a heart issue. The heart issue is going to take lots of talking, praying, discussion. The disobedience is very telling- you had to tell her four times then yell the fifth? You're the problem there. Tell her once then spank her. All you're doing by telling her over and over is teaching her that she doesn't have to obey until you lose it.

 

 

Everytime she pulled her one upmanship, unkind to brothers I'd send her to her room. Make it clear that if she is unkind, she's isolated.

 

I appreciate your thoughts. I agree, there is an obedience issue and a heart issue. I agree with you on sending her to her room, as well. I do that-- in fact I did it four times today!!

 

I think you're a bit harsh when you say that *I* *am* the problem. That's quite a jump from reading an online post, imo. I know it's difficult to get the full picture from just one post, but I have to think that you would not have said that if you'd seen what happened. Just to clarify, this is how the conversation went, in rapid succession:

 

((DD holding kitten, dog begins to come near...)

 

Me, from across the room: Elizabeth, you should let the kitten go.

 

Elizabeth: Well, I'm just going to....

 

Me: No, you need to put him down.

 

((Dog gets closer))

 

Elizabeth: I can hold him this way, and then....

 

Me: Elizabeth, no, you can't hold him. The dog is coming!

 

((Elizabeth hesitates...Dog starts to jump up toward dd and kitten)

 

Me, now yelling because it's dangerous: Elizabeth, put the kitten down!!!!

 

Then she put the kitten down, she was sent to her room, I went and talked to her about why it was important that she obey the first time, how she and the kitten might have been hurt, etc. She received a spanking for her disobedience. We had a talk about her heart, and we hugged.

 

I'm not saying that I handled the situation perfectly, that's why I am asking for more suggestions. However, I don't think that it's accurate to say that I am the problem. I may have contributed to it by not acting quickly enough, but at that moment I was most concerned with dd's and the kitten's safety, and keeping them safe from the dog.

 

I hope that clarifies the situation a bit.

 

 

Erica

[LG Gone Wild]

Just to clarify, this is how the conversation went, in rapid succession:

 

((DD holding kitten, dog begins to come near...)

 

Me, from across the room: Elizabeth, you should let the kitten go.

 

Elizabeth: Well, I'm just going to....

 

Me: No, you need to put him down.

 

((Dog gets closer))

 

Elizabeth: I can hold him this way, and then....

 

Me: Elizabeth, no, you can't hold him. The dog is coming!

 

((Elizabeth hesitates...Dog starts to jump up toward dd and kitten)

 

Me, now yelling because it's dangerous: Elizabeth, put the kitten down!!!!

 

Then she put the kitten down, she was sent to her room, I went and talked to her about why it was important that she obey the first time, how she and the kitten might have been hurt, etc. She received a spanking for her disobedience. We had a talk about her heart, and we hugged.

 

I'm not saying that I handled the situation perfectly, that's why I am asking for more suggestions. However, I don't think that it's accurate to say that I am the problem. I may have contributed to it by not acting quickly enough, but at that moment I was most concerned with dd's and the kitten's safety, and keeping them safe from the dog.

 

I hope that clarifies the situation a bit.

 

 

Erica

 

I am glad you posted and explained what's going on with your kid but I couldn't figure out how to explain my ds9. I call him my contrarian.

 

So anyway, when I remember, I cut off the conversation and ask, "What is the correct response?"

 

Child murmurs, "Yes, ma'am"

 

I reply,"Then get on with it"

 

I don't always remember and it doesn't always work so I eagerly await all the advice.

 

:lurk5:

[happyWImom]

Erica:

 

My dd is 6, and my ds is almost 5. Believe it or not, you really are not alone! A lot of other moms I've talked to have the same situation, except they are usually the eldest child. My dd has a lot of the same things going on. If her brother does something for the first time, she'll put it down, say she can do it better, etc... One thing we really stress is the "It's not all about you" idea. We try to incorporate scripture into a lot, read books about positive character traits, etc... Reinforce, reinforce, reinforce. And really get to the "heart" of it. Where is the behavior coming from, what is she feeling when she does/says these things. Have you read either Shepharding a Child's Heart, The Well-Trained Heart, Parenting from Surviving to Thriving, or Creative Correction? Yes, I am always looking for the answer. All of these books are good though because they really do have the same theme. The positive is that I can slowly see a change.:hurray: My dd used to get so angry, and then cry, and even when I knew she regreted whatever she had done/said, she was always so stubborn and wouldn't make up. Even though I knew she WANTED to. Lately, she will actually say she's sorry. And she is trying to control herself and think of others first. Baby steps.

 

Hang in there.

[Chris in VA]

I'm sorry you are having such a challenging child. I think it's great that you are working so hard to train her up. Please don't give up! As someone with a disobedient and rebellious teen, I know it's a battle that can last a while. And, I certainly can't say I did it "right."

 

One little thing I noticed that might be helpful--watch your language when asking her to do something.

 

I don't know how to quote, and I can't see your post, so forgive me if I've got this wrong--but in the kitten incident, it wasn't until the very last time that you actually told her what to do.

First time, it was "you should." Second time, "you need to." Third time, you suggested that she couldn't hold him. Not until the last time did your language really speak loud and clear, PUT IT DOWN.

Perhaps it would help to start using plain and simple commands.

I have a friend who always puts "OK?" at the end of everything she asks her kids to do. Don't do that. Of course it's ok. You are the mommy. You are not asking. You are telling. If you want first time obedience, it is important that you make it crystal clear that there is no choice to disobey. If they really have a choice (well, they always have a choice, but I mean, if it is really ok with you that they choose NOT to do it), then fine. If you make it SOUND like there's a choice, they will think it's ok not to chose to be obedient.

 

DO THIS NOW, DC. Period. No "OK?" You can add "Please." of course.

[hillfarm]

I agree with much of the advice you have been given. Rude, hurtful behavior in not tolerable and first time obedience is a goal we should all strive to attain. However, it is much harder to deal with these things in some children than in others. But, I believe that as hard as it will be dealing with it in a 5yo, it will only be much harder if not dealt with before she reaches 6yo, or 10yo, etc...

 

Unfortunately, in my experience, it is also something that will cycle around to be dealt with again in a few years. For part of our 1st grade curriculum we did an intensive study of authority--who were dd's authorities and what was her proper response to them. Now, as we are looking forward to 5th grade I am planning to revisit the topic. It bore wonderful fruit these last few years but now that her brain is maturing and she is entering a new phase of her life, we need to cover the same ground, just on a different level. I imagine I will be typing the same things again when she turns 13 or 14 and probably again frequently thereafter!

 

Independence is a powerful trait. It can take our children far or it can lead them down the path to ruin. I think the main thing is to teach them how to manage it in themselves at all the various stages of their lives.

[Anne]

Erica,

 

Hugs to you! I know this is very distressing!! You have gotten lots of good advice and I hope something helps you find new ways to approach your dd.

 

I do not know whether or not you are a Christian. If you are, you might find my situation applicable: Both of my dds had issues that I just could not change - I lectured, I punished, I explained - nothing. Finally, when my dc were about 5 and 9, we started reading a chapter of Proverbs every day. Afterwards, each person would find a verse or two that was meaningful to them and say WHY it was meaningful. Nothing in my children's upbringing had a greater impact than this practice. It allowed the Lord to speak to directly to my children through His Word. It allowed me to share my faith walk, including my struggles, with my children in meaningful ways. It was an opportunity to share our hearts.

 

I hope this is helpful - I pray all the best for you!

 

Anne

[Rosie_0801]

I was in guides for about 17 years, so I've seen a few of these :)

In my experience, 5 is not too young to talk about leadership and what that means. Explaining the difference between "good bosses" and "bad bosses" should help. Discouraging her from being a boss isn't going to help, since it would be going too much against the grain; but her desire to win should help you channel her into "good boss" behaviour. "Bad bosses" say things like "I don't care!" when their brothers show them a photo. "Good bosses" say supportive things like "that's a nice photo." "Bad bosses" say "Me FIRST!" all the time. "Good bosses" make sure everyone gets a turn.

That sort of stuff. Of course all small bosses have bigger bosses and have to do what they say...

:)

Rosie

[Pamela H in Texas]

I hope you aren't bristling too much...We're trying to help. But surely you understand that you (like all of us, aren't perfect. You've simply made some common parenting mistakes and it's time to 1) take responsibility and 2) fix it. If you say something more than once on a regular basis, it *IS* your fault. The GREAT news about it being partially your fault, is that YOU can fix it!

 

Now, I completely disagree with Remunda. There are two reasons.

 

#1, it is terribly unfair to hit a kid each time in order to train them to obey when the parent is the one who has made a mistake. If someone is to be hit, it should be the parent that regularly said things twice (or five times)!

 

#2, I believe that it is teaching the kid the wrong thing to punish in the training period. When training, you are trying to get the child to comply with YOU, not comply because they get a reward or to avoid punishment. I believe we are an authority over our children (something not popular these days, I know) and that children should look to us as an authority. I want my kid to mind ME, not the spanking (or time out or popcicle).

 

Again, when you ask your daughter to do something, one of three things happen. Her complying is the desired result. Because of that, sometimes it is required that we "help" them comply. A child who is helped to comply is still complying. They may not LIKE it when I take their hand to move the washcloth over their body, but they ARE washing their bod with a soapy cloth. A child will get the idea and choose to "do it herself." This is a much easier tool to use when they are only 2 or 3 but I wouldn't hesitate using it with an older child on SOME things. If I give them a choice to bunny hop or be carried to the tub, I won't hesitate picking them up if they choose not to walk or bunny hop (or crawl or whatever it is they wish to do, but GET IN THE TUB!)

 

BTW, I have VERY little patience. That is another reason I don't use punishment or rewards. I said, I expect it to be done. Plain and simple. To me, permissiveness is what usually causes people to turn to punishment or rewards (not used the way Remunda said though....but the way most people use punishment, threats, bribes and rewards).

 

The second way that I have done it with my children, foster children, and daycare children is to make the world STOP. I don't really care if they do nothing but breathe and potty between now and the time they get the idea that when mommy says something, that is the way it is. I have always proved to be a brick wall, trustworthy and consistent....

 

And consistent is what these kids need. My son was one of those kids that took 15 miles if I gave him 1/4 of an inch! Only one foster child with RAD was any tougher than him. Even the families I counseled didn't have one that compared. He just was a toughie!

 

BTW, don't forget PRACTICING as a logical consequence. A child who cannot (or chooses not) to do a chore she knows well (such as putting her shorts in the drawer), must need practice. She must need you to help her practice a few times a day for awhile. She then must need you to check EVERY time for awhile. And if she chooses to drop a piece in the floor "accidentally on purpose" then she must need to put all her clothing from that drawer on her bed and try again. Maybe she needs to practice is 3 or 5 times. And you may have to do that with more than one thing. Did you see my post about how I trained my kids regarding boundaries in the front yard? It's the same idea. (BTW, I suggest you go back and look at some of the recent posts about spanking, first time obedience, etc)

 

It may seem like a lot of work for a little while. But it is SO worth teaching her NOW. I know you have tried. I didn't mean to insinuate you didn't. Tougher kids just need BETTER discipline and a lot of it.

 

There was a woman on here that got onto me about touting "better" discipline. She said that she knew better than me because she had dealt with a certain issue with her then young teenager for several years now. Well, THAT is EXACTLY what we're trying to curtail. So many people are still punishing their 10yr olds monthly, even weekly or more! How sad that they didn't give proper DISCIPLINE so their 10yo knew better how to behave.

 

Like I said, my son was tough too. He's still not EASY by any stretch. But our home is peaceful and we don't have to worry about rewards and punishments in order to control our kids. We gave them the tools and skills they need in life and give them room to practice while we're still here as a safety net. Most of the time, our kids soar! The few times they trip up, they have the confidence, skill, and ability to brush themselves off and jump right back into life. We have their back and they know it.

 

I hope SOME of this made sense. Again, I apologize for offending you earlier. I just know that you can step up your game just a little and your little girl will blossom in ways you only dream of now. And your home CAN be peaceful and easy going. It's just gonna take a little work and consistency. What else is new in parenting, huh? :)

 

HTHS,

[Pamela H in Texas]

btw, do y'all believe in the Bible? Could you make parental authority and other such things part of your Bible study and memory verses and discussion points? My son made some HUGE improvements when he could take some of that to heart.

[Remudamom]

I'm sticking to my guns. The first time you say something to the child and she doesn't do it, YOU need to make her do it. As in walk over, take her arm make her put the kitten down and then go to her room for disobeying. You don't have to spank her, but you have to make her obey. At five you can do this.

 

What is the use in discussing whether or not she's going to do what you say?

 

I insisted on first time obedience because it could save a life one day.

[Erica in PA]

I still have a hard time understanding how your approach plays out... so dd says something rude to her brother. I tell her that she may not speak to her brother that way. I tell her she must apologize. She does not immediately do so. What would you suggest next, if I am not to offer negative consequences or repeat myself?

 

Erica

[Pamela H in Texas]

Erica,

 

Her world STOPS until she offers an apology. One appropriate consequence may be that she can spend that time in her room (or if y'all have a "quiet spot."). Another is that she's within armslength of you. The idea isn't to punish her into compliance, but simply that people who behave in an ugly manner aren't enjoyable to be around or can't be trusted to treat others nicely. You'd be glad to enjoy her company after she's made amends (btw, I also think she should do something nice for brother). Or her siblings would be glad to enjoy her company after she's made amends. Two approaches there....

 

When it comes right down to it, you either MAKE her do something or her world stops till she does. Obviously you are unable to FORCE the words out of her mouth (so it isn't the same as MAKING her pick up legos). You instead stop her world until she chooses to do it on her own.

 

Another person may say, "tell her to do it; spank her if she doesn't." And 20 spankings later, what are you to do? Still tell her then spank her? Regardless, she DOES have control in this area and SOME kids ARE tougher and will push and push and push. You have got to do something that you can be consistent with. Certainly you wouldn't spank 20 times within 20 min or even 20 hours, right? It's people like us who get this advice and yet if we followed it, we'd be committing child abuse....for REAL. SO what CAN you do?

 

You can tomato stake until she apologizes. You can tell her to come out of her room once she's ready to apologize. You can not go on with playing outside, doing arts and crafts, etc until she apologizes.

 

The other thing I want you to remember is that IF you are consistent with having Mommy Power EVERY time, she WILL start complying, even if she has a serious condition you also need to address (not saying she does, but it's definitely a consideration if she doesn't come around in a reasonable amount of time). So where it seems like such trouble the first several incidents, they'll get shorter and shorter with more and more time inbetween them. She just has to learn that you're serious. You've told her, by your actions, otherwise (maybe unknowingly). You have to change the programming now.

 

Have you seen SuperNanny? I generally dislike much of her punitive advice (who puts a kid in time out after telling them to go take a nap or pick up blocks? Since when is punishment a choice one can make instead of minding?). However, her bedtime routine is right. You have a short routine, you say good night to kiddo in his bed, you expect him to stay there. If he comes out, you don't engage with him, have power struggles with him, etc. You simply drop him right back into bed, calmly, quietly, firmly. Within a couple nights, kiddo learns that mom and dad no longer put up with the bedtime war and they must just lie down in bed til they fall asleep.

 

This is the same thing you're teaching your daughter. The rules have changed. You no longer will say things multiple times, yell, threaten, punish, etc. Instead, when you say something, you'll back it up with either making her comply (if reasonable) or making her world stop until she does comply (if more reasonable). And after several days (but probaby closer to weeks), she'll believe you most of the time. Occasionally, she'll test you. Do you STILL Mean what you say Mom? If you make her comply or make her world stop, she'll see that you are trustworthy and safe and mean what you say. And she'll continue complying for the most part.

 

Then you get to teach her to "argue appropriately." But that is for another book of a post :)

 

Does that help better?

[Carol in Cal.]

I appreciate your thoughts. I agree, there is an obedience issue and a heart issue. I agree with you on sending her to her room, as well. I do that-- in fact I did it four times today!!

 

I think you're a bit harsh when you say that *I* *am* the problem.

 

***Erica, I don't think that *you are* the problem, but I think that you could communicate a little more effectively than what follows here. ***

 

Just to clarify, this is how the conversation went, in rapid succession:

 

((DD holding kitten, dog begins to come near...)

 

Me, from across the room: Elizabeth, you should let the kitten go.

 

Elizabeth: Well, I'm just going to....

 

Me: No, you need to put him down.

 

((Dog gets closer))

 

Elizabeth: I can hold him this way, and then....

 

Me: Elizabeth, no, you can't hold him. The dog is coming!

 

((Elizabeth hesitates...Dog starts to jump up toward dd and kitten)

 

Me, now yelling because it's dangerous: Elizabeth, put the kitten down!!!!

 

Then she put the kitten down, she was sent to her room, I went and talked to her about why it was important that she obey the first time, how she and the kitten might have been hurt, etc. She received a spanking for her disobedience. We had a talk about her heart, and we hugged.

 

 

Erica

 

I think that kids need short, clear directions, especially regarding safety issues.

 

In the circumstances above, I would have said, "Please put the kitten down now. This is a safety issue." And, although my DD is not perfectly obedient, she knows that there is no argument about a safety issues, ever. She would have done it right then. If she had not, I would have been across the room immediately, enforcing this. And, also, if she hadn't, I would have been justified in a serious consequence because I had been so clear in my direction. Forgive me, but I think that in this particular case your directions sounded more like suggestions, and that kids who are more lawyerly or strong-willed do not 'take a hint' like everyone else. I would also say that if you are teaching her to 'take a hint', the time to do it is with an issue that is not a safety issue.

 

And, I would like to add that I think you are a fantastic mother from all you have posted here, and that this is just a little different kind of child. You're wise to think this through and figure it out insteading of assuming that your tried and true methods 'should' work. Not with this child!

 

BTW, I don't insist on first time obediance all the time. I also don't give orders very often. But, I have conveyed very clearly that if I mention a safety issue, or give one of three code words, or hold up one finger (signalling that I am now counting to three), things are not negotiable. I'm willing to discuss all else, but not those issues. I don't know that that is better than first time obediance across the board, but I do think that it is more sustainable in the long run from a relationship standpoint, while leaving me thoroughly in charge, able to trump any argument with direct orders if I feel it is necessary.

[Rose in BC]

I also know, from personal experience, that it's not easy with these especially strong willed children. It can suck the life out of you. I have noticed some patterns in my child. We usually have a cycle of incidents and then some time of peaceful compliance. I also notice that as he's aged the cycle of peaceful compliance is longer and his "positive response time" is improving. I also notice that when I haven't spent enough time with him the battle cycle happens more frequently.

 

None the less it's tough. I am a strong person but this child of mine can really push my buttons. I am always consistent and always follow through with what I say. Some children just take longer to get that you're the boss.

 

I guess I just wanted to let you know that while I agree with the comments made I also can empathize with dealing with a child with this personality and recognize how tiring and disheartening dealing with them can be.

 

It does get better and our battles are shorter.

[Pamela H in Texas]

One last post...then hopefully I can get to sleep....

 

I tend to come off as very strong (and I wonder where ds got it from?). Part of it is my writing ability. Part is just that I feel extremely strongly about child discipline (teaching/guiding). And part of it is that I tend to run a tight ship. I don't like bumps along the way (though come they still do!).

 

I want to liken it to a house though. With infants, it is very important that there is not a draft in their rooms. We make sure they can't get up and down the stairs unsupervised. We test their milk before serving it. We remove anything they may find and choke upon. This is how I see this first step of discipline. The training phase is setting them up for health, happiness, success. We have a great deal of control because babies need parents (and so do toddlers and preschoolers as they learn).

 

But in time, we take Little Janey outside. At first, it's within the fence. We put her near non-poisonous plants. We put her in the sand box. We watch carefully to make sure she doesn't get anything harmful. We let her explore, but the boundaries are still very clear and we're still running the show. This is how it is with toddlers and preschoolers once they have the basics down and we're training the next step. We give them more freedom but we're there to guide. In the discussion above, this may be the time we set up a cue or allow the child to state their viewpoint after complying.

 

But all kids grow up. Our 6yo is now riding a bike. They can be trusted not to fall out an open window. They know how to unlatch the gate. We give them a lot more leeway. We've taught them to "argue appropriately". Sometimes they forget the when or how and we correct them but they are much more independent in that regard. Sometimes they are 5 or 6, other times 7 or 8 before they really get this step down.

 

I'm not suggesting that the hard-nose approach I mentioned above should be constant. Children grow and blossom. It's much more fluid than all that. Slowly, over time, we give kids the basic skills and tools they need for life. Ideally, sometime by 8-10 yrs old, they have them down pretty well and can use opportunities that come up in life to practice those things. They don't need mom and dad to control them for the most part. They are past that stage of life. Instead, they need mom and dad to trust their upbringing, capabilities, strengths, etc. Tthey still need guidance and teaching, but it's on a different level now, and a different method. If we try to treat them as if they are 5, they are terribly upset and close their minds to the discipline we were trying to give anyway. We helped them past those infantile stages.

 

But we have to start somewhere. The original post suggested, TO ME, that stopping the train, backing up a bit, and getting certain things re-trained was just a necessity. In order to have any sort of growth/blossoming as well as relationship, the dynamic needed to change FIRST. Once it has gotten back on track, THEN we can move to the next stage in order to encourage MORE growth, more relationship, more thinking skill, etc.

 

I'm hoping this post comes off a little softer and is easier to take. I know I write way too much.

 

Where I suggest a pretty hard-nose approach for a short time for this child, the goal would be to loosen up as discipline (teaching/guidance) proved she was capable. The longer the period of time she can practice doing things right without being controlled by bribes, rewards, threats and punishment, the better, imo.

[Rose in BC]

Pamela I know written text can sometimes be misinterpreted. I think most of the advice given tonight is excellent and is how I generally parent.

 

It's tough though when you've got that extra special button pusher. Mine is incredibly bright and creative and we're at a point where 95% of the time we've got the kind of response we would expect but it's taken longer to get there than our other children. It can be tough some days. (I'm always thinking to myself when dealing with my child, "you might be stubborn but I'm stubborner" and that's why God blessed us with you.)

 

And btw, I love, love, love my boy and see huge potential in him. He's just a tough nut to crack! lol!

 

I think I'm reacting to this thread because we had one of those days today (and it's been awhile).

 

It's good to have a place to hash out parenting ideas.

[Erica in PA]

Erica,

 

Her world STOPS until she offers an apology. One appropriate consequence may be that she can spend that time in her room (or if y'all have a "quiet spot."). Another is that she's within armslength of you. The idea isn't to punish her into compliance, but simply that people who behave in an ugly manner aren't enjoyable to be around or can't be trusted to treat others nicely. You'd be glad to enjoy her company after she's made amends (btw, I also think she should do something nice for brother). Or her siblings would be glad to enjoy her company after she's made amends. Two approaches there....

 

quote]

 

Thanks for clarifying, Pamela. What you described is actually exactly what I do, LOL!!!! I do send her to her bedroom, or remove her from an activity until she is willing to comply. I don't allow noncompliance. Yesterday I did that for each of the circumstances that I described. Maybe on the circumstance with the kitten I should have gotten up more quickly and put the kitten down after the first time I mentioned, but that was actually a unique circumstance where potential danger was involved, and was a sort of emergency situation where the entire exchange took about 10 seconds. I don't think I ever could have gotten over to her in that amount of time, so I was doing what I could to get her to put it down as soon as possible.

 

I thought you were suggesting something different, because you mentioned no negative consequences-- I consider a time-out or removal from an activity to be a negative consequence. So I thought you were saying those weren't a good idea. So actually we agree! :iagree:

 

One thing that I could work on is moving a bit more quickly, though. I do sometimes say things several times before she listens, and I will try taking immediate action after the very first time.

 

I took a risk in my first post in not including what I did as a consequence each time. I did that because I wanted to hear what people would do, and hear their suggestions based on the situation, not based on what I did. But, I think some people may have taken that to mean that I didn't do anything, which is far from the case. I spent a lot of time and energy dealing with the situations yesterday, mostly in the way you describe. I just felt that it wasn't working, and so I wondered if there were some different approaches to try. The child is 100 times more strong willed than her brothers, and doesn't respond as well to my usual approach, which is what I've described here.

 

She does definitely go in cycles, as Rose described her son, and she's been in a bad one for a couple of weeks now. I'm feeling worn down, and was hoping for some new ideas. I guess pretty much the answer though is tweak a couple of things, and then just keep keeping on.

 

Thanks for your input!

 

Erica

[Pamela H in Texas]

One thing that I could work on is moving a bit more quickly, though. I do sometimes say things several times before she listens, and I will try taking immediate action after the very first time.

 

Saying something twice means there is a 50/50 chance you'll make her. That is enough of a chance for many kids to take. If you say it 3, 4, 5 times, then the percentage of the time she must listen is even less.

 

Sounds like you just need to get back to one time and one time only. Then she'll know she can trust you when you speak. When she has less than a 1% chance of getting away with something for even a moment, she'll start minding the first time just because you're gonna make her do so anyway.

[Danestress]

You say you are against punishments, but this sounds very much like punishment to me. It doesn't sound like yelling or spanking or freaking out, but it does sound like punishment. "Your world stops until you do what I say." "You have to spend this time in your room." From a child's perspective, isn't that a punishment? I understand that the child has control over when the situation changes - the punishment ends when she decides it will through compliance - but essentially, there is a threat. Do what I say or your world stops. I'm in charge, you aren't. This isn't about your choices, it's about my choice for how this household will run.

 

I have no beef at all with what you do in this situation. I think it's pretty much what I would do too. I just don't understand why so many mothers on this board claim that they are against punishment or they only go with "natural consequences" and then they describe something that you could get sort of convoluted and say "Oh, no, this is different from a punishment, it's natural because no one wants to be with you when you are ugly to them" but to me, it seems pretty much indistinguishable from "you either do what I say, or you suffer."

 

I understand the difference between "punishment" and "consequence" in theory. But so often I think the difference will be totally lost on the child, who is basically learning the same thing either way, "There are ways you behave in this home. I'm in charge in this home, so my expectations of what is acceptable rules. If you don't meet our expectations, you will deal the consequence, and in the end, you will have to conform to basic standards of civil behavior, or else you will suffer."

[Ellie]

These are common behaviors of a first born child of any age, either gender. I recognize them because *I* am a first born :-) Your dd counts as a first born because she has two older brothers.

 

First borns have to be right. It's almost like sin to them *not* to be right. It can take many, many years for them to understand that there really is often more than one "right." Ask me how I know :-)

 

Her behaviors do need to be corrected, every time, ASAP, but it would be really good if you could manage not to get too frustrated with her; even the character traits which annoy everyone so much will help her to be a leader when she's an adult, sort of the dark side of the character traits you see which are so positive.

 

The Birth Order Book by Dr. Kevin Lehman *really* helped me understand why I am the way I am, lol. It was the very first book I ever read that I fit into, and my dc and dh, as well. (Dh is also a first born.)

[SnowWhite]

Anything by Kevin Leman is AWESOME.

 

You are dealing with a Princess there, and he has some great tips about how to deal with this personality type.

 

I am something of a Princess myself, though with 3 younger brothers instead of 2 older.

 

I also see myself in your daughter, like the previous poster.

 

I agree that you need to get her to "buy in" to being the kind of Princess you want her to be. In my home that was through Bible stories, character stories (like Uncle Arthur Bedtime Stories and Pathway Readers and Uncle Dan and Aunt Sue records). You can find resources like these that fit your religion or morality.

 

The positive side of your dilemma is that your daughter will likely grow into a very successful and respected young woman.

[gardening momma]

I haven't read every post in this thread yet (I will), but I second a previous poster's (1st page) recommendation of "Parenting is Heart Work." I have this book, and although I'll admit I haven't finished it yet, it was highly recommended to me by Larry Fowler at Awana HQ.

 

I have an almost-5-yr-old dd who is very strong willed as well. Just this afternoon she threw a royal fit because I wouldn't let her go outside (it was raining, and I didn't know if we'd have lightning). She fights me whenever I try to put her in time-out, physically and verbally struggling with me. This time I put her in her room for time out--it's not the first time I've used her bedroom as a time out location instead of the couch, because the couch hasn't been working so well lately. She continued to fight me. She would not stay in her room. If I managed to get the door closed, she'd open it and try to come back out. I physically continued to put her back in her room. I thought, what would my mom do? (when we were kids she was a very effective disciplinarian). I knew she'd say to keep at it until you won the battle. I did eventually get a chance to call her and ask, and that's exactly what she told me.

 

Dd used to take naps every afternoon until she was about 4, then she had "quiet time" in her room every day for about the same amount of time. Now she's getting to the point where she doesn't always need that rest time so much anymore, but on days when she's cranky or misbehaved, I do make her have quiet time.

 

I don't know how much my situation applies to you, but I could tell today that if I didn't get my way, she would continue to behave the way she has been. She thinks that the things she does is a joke, like hitting, pulling, pushing, etc... and that time out or a spanking (I do spank, but it doesn't seem to phase her, so I don't do it as much as my parents did) is a joke and doesn't mean anything. I knew that today I had to win and earn back some of that "mommy power."

[gardening momma]

BTW, don't forget PRACTICING as a logical consequence. A child who cannot (or chooses not) to do a chore she knows well (such as putting her shorts in the drawer), must need practice. She must need you to help her practice a few times a day for awhile. She then must need you to check EVERY time for awhile. And if she chooses to drop a piece in the floor "accidentally on purpose" then she must need to put all her clothing from that drawer on her bed and try again. Maybe she needs to practice is 3 or 5 times. And you may have to do that with more than one thing.

 

I think the concept of PRACTICING is mentioned in the book "Parenting is Heart Work." The person who recommended the book to me was telling me about an example of a child who struggled with the bedtime routine and staying in bed. The parents were counseled to do this: Tell the child that you're sorry that you haven't trained him well enough, and that this coming Saturday (or tomorrow, whatever day works best) you and he will practice it. Then, when Saturday comes, in the morning after breakfast, you say, "ok, time to get ready for bed!" Then you guide him through the routine--bathroom, brush teeth, etc..., then lie down in bed. [He does this willingly, as it seems like a game]. Then you say, "Ok, let's do it again!" And you do it over and over, as this is part of the training (you let him know, of course, that it's your fault that you haven't trained him well enough--you don't have to blame yourself, of course, it's just a bit of child psychology here). Soon enough, he's totally sick of the "training" and that night will go to bed willingly and not get up (that would risk having to go through training again).

[Jami]

Hi Erica,

 

I have this child. :) I was this child. (Am?) I agree with the poster that recommended finding leadership opportunities for your daughter and chances to be responsible for something else. My "princess" is newly-6 and we're hoping that helps somewhat. But we've found that when she has the chance to take care of other people or things it's a good outlet for her "managing" personality. We've done plenty of removal of privileges, maybe the other two get to go to a park with dad and she has to stay home because she refused to obey in some circumstance. Missing out really stings more for her than anything else. Another solution, and this is probably unique to our family, we're having another child. Our girl shines with little ones. She's only 23 months older than her little sister so that dynamic to care for a little one isn't quite there at this point. But with little cousins and friends at church, she's just a different girl. She just loves mothering littler ones and having them think she's amazing. So one of the reasons (and it's only one of our reasons) we decided to jump into having a 4th after going back and forth for years is to have the opportunity to positively reinforce these character traits in her. She's a words of affirmation girl and the more things I find that I can honestly praise her for, the sweeter and more helpful she becomes.

 

She and I are so similar in many ways... the "middle child" with first born personalities and plenty of "'entitlement" heart issues. And yet she's the one I have the hardest time loving on, because she just knows how to push those buttons. I honestly feel some days like I'm parenting a 12 year old already. :001_huh:

 

So we pray a lot for her and with her and know that some of these things are areas of her heart that we need to wait on the Holy Spirit to transform in her, and in me.

 

Jami

[summer]

I am really afraid I may have come off wrong. When I said be consistent, I did not mean I did not think you already are consistent...I am sure you are. I was just trying to reassure you that you are doing the right thing already.

[Erica in PA]

I am really afraid I may have come off wrong. When I said be consistent, I did not mean I did not think you already are consistent...I am sure you are. I was just trying to reassure you that you are doing the right thing already.

 

Summer, no, you didn't say anything wrong!! I appreciated your post. The reason I asked is that I am willing to take suggestions, because while dh and I have had a pretty solid, successful approach to raising children, what worked so well for our two boys is not working with this dd. I don't think that means that we are doing anything seriously *wrong,* or *creating* this situation-- but it does mean that for this child, we need to think of some different approaches. The only posts that I felt slightly bothered by were the ones that said that I had completely created this situation, which is not the case. I'm not perfect, but it would take some very serious parenting mistakes to have creating this situation with dd to the degree that it is, if she were not a very challenging child by nature. She is, and that is why we need to reevaluate our strategies with her.

 

Thanks for posting, though! I appreciate it!

 

Erica

[Erica in PA]

Yes, you really *do* have this child!!!!! I didn't mention this in my OP, but nurturing/mothering is a major thing to my dd too. Huge, actually. She is wonderful with babies and children, and they love her too.

 

Missing out on things is also the thing that dd hates most too. It's been really the only thing that has ever truly humbled her. I am a believer in spanking, and still do it sometimes because I do think the Bible teaches us to, but it has not outwardly had the same good effect that it had on my two sons. She is very, very difficult to get through to, especially when she is angry.

 

She also loves words of affirmation, and I have been struggling to find anything good to say to her in the past few weeks, though I've wanted to. I did get to praise her a few times yesterday, for her behavior, and I was happy to be able to do that.

 

We are *not* having another baby!! LOL She would love it, but honestly none of the rest of us have it in us at all. So she'll have to be happy with all the babies at church. In another couple years, maybe I'll let her help in the nursery with me.

 

Anyway, your post really resonated with me, because you mentioned things about dd that I hadn't even mentioned in my post. So I know that you truly do have a very similar dd!! Thanks for posting!

 

Erica

[Ellie]

Summer, no, you didn't say anything wrong!! I appreciated your post. The reason I asked is that I am willing to take suggestions, because while dh and I have had a pretty solid, successful approach to raising children, what worked so well for our two boys is not working with this dd. I don't think that means that we are doing anything seriously *wrong,* or *creating* this situation-- but it does mean that for this child, we need to think of some different approaches. The only posts that I felt slightly bothered by were the ones that said that I had completely created this situation, which is not the case. I'm not perfect, but it would take some very serious parenting mistakes to have creating this situation with dd to the degree that it is, if she were not a very challenging child by nature. She is, and that is why we need to reevaluate our strategies with her.

 

Every child is different. I have two dds, and they are as different as night and day. If I had not actually been present when both were born I'd have wondered if someone had switched the second one with an alien, lol, because even though I did the same kinds of things with her as with the firstborn, boy howdy, was she a different critter from the womb! IOW, your dd is a different person not just because she's a girl and your others are boys, but because God made her different. Sometimes people put too much emphasis on the differences between genders and not individual personalities, and that can affect how they approach discipline or child rearing in general. I'm not saying that you are, just putting a little cautionary bug in your ear :-)

[Erica in PA]

Every child is different. I have two dds, and they are as different as night and day. If I had not actually been present when both were born I'd have wondered if someone had switched the second one with an alien, lol, because even though I did the same kinds of things with her as with the firstborn, boy howdy, was she a different critter from the womb! IOW, your dd is a different person not just because she's a girl and your others are boys, but because God made her different. Sometimes people put too much emphasis on the differences between genders and not individual personalities, and that can affect how they approach discipline or child rearing in general. I'm not saying that you are, just putting a little cautionary bug in your ear :-)

 

Oh no, LOL, believe me, I don't think the difference is because she's a girl!!! Not for a minute. My two boys are actually very unusually calm and quiet, and she is unusually lively and spunky. My children defy all the stereotypes, lol. Yes, God definitely made her different, that is for sure. And I keep reminding myself, He has blessed her with very strong good points, as well as challenges.

 

Erica

[nmoira]

My best momma friend has a child very like this: they'll go to a park and within five minutes, all the other children will be crawling around playing animals to her zookeeper. It's certainly something to see, and while we know that with her leadership capabilities she could very well do amazing things in life, she's definitely a challenge to parent. :) Her mother doesn't want to stamp out those qualities, or make her "nice" but rather to help her better integrate and communicate with those around her and to respect others and not feel intimidated by ability in others.

 

My friend is working with her daughter to build her empathy and modulate her very strong sense of justice (not in the sense of ignoring injustice, but rather in learning how to prioritize). While the child is intensely social and needs regular interaction, she also needs routine and down time before bed to help her wind down and sleep. One thing that has become obvious as she gets older is that masked by her her competitiveness/self love, is an insecure little girl who can be seen only in occasional flashes. The book Mindset by Carol Dweck has proven invaluable to my friend because it has helped her learn to frame things in a noncompetitive light (relative to other people... it's big on using yourself as a measuring stick) and given her the language with which to talk about hard work and accomplishment.

[Haiku]

 

Me, from across the room: Elizabeth, you should let the kitten go.

 

 

 

From the mom of an EXTREMELY strong-willed daughter:

 

My dh does this, too. He suggests that they do things, asks that they do things, says that it would be nice if they did things. Rarely does he TELL them to do things.

 

I bluntly tell the kids what to do. Dd still challenges me sometimes, but she responds much better to being told, forcefully, what to do rather than being told, nicely, or asked, nicely, or suggested to, nicely, what to do.

 

In the situation you described, I would have said, loudly and forcefully, "Put that cat down RIGHT NOW and come here" as I moved toward her to make her put the cat down.

 

Good luck. I feel your pain.

 

Tara