Statistics about homeschoolers or "phoney baloney"

[warriormom]

I just finished reading Dumbing Us Down today. I read a startling statistic in the book that homeschooled children are 5 to 10 years ahead of their peers in public schools. The statistic is not documented (no reference). Do you know where I can find that statistic? Just seems too general. Btw, I am not a fan of the book. IMO, it should have been a booklet. How many times and ways can you say public schools suck? :lol:

 

Also, I had a conversation with one of my friend's moms. She mentioned that the United States is one of the only countries in the world that believes that we should wait until our child is 6-7 years old to teach children to read. That most countries start teaching their children to read at 2-3 years of age (maybe parents do this?) I am a huge early literacy mom, but I was wondering whether you know where that information is found. I did not want to "call her out" because I really like my friend.:tongue_smilie:

I just finished reading Dumbing Us Down today. I read a startling statistic in the book that homeschooled children are 5 to 10 years ahead of their peers in public schools. The statistic is not documented (no reference). Do you know where I can find that statistic? Just seems too general. Btw, I am not a fan of the book. IMO, it should have been a booklet. How many times and ways can you say public schools suck? :lol:

 

Hmm. This doesn't pass this sniff test. If there's one thing we learn around here, it is that homeschoolers are all over the place. I don't even know how you'd go about measuring this, given that many (most?) locales don't require standardized testing for homeschoolers. I can't believe that _all_ 18 year old homeschooled high school senior are doing PhD or post-graduate work. I'm sure some are, and I'm sure a bunch are ahead of their peers, 5 to 10 years consistently across the board? Are _any_ six year olds doing AP classes, as many 16 year olds do? That just strikes me as really doubtful.

 

Also, I had a conversation with one of my friend's moms. She mentioned that the United States is one of the only countries in the world that believes that we should wait until our child is 6-7 years old to teach children to read. That most countries start teaching their children to read at 2-3 years of age (maybe parents do this?) I am a huge early literacy mom, but I was wondering whether you know where that information is found. I did not want to "call her out" because I really like my friend.:tongue_smilie:

 

Wasn't there a popular story about some Scandinavian country (Finland?) that didn't teach reading until 3rd grade and had great results?

 

Also, I think that this depends someone on the language in question. I would imagine is it much easier to learn to read a very phonetic language like Spanish or Italian, than a phonetically tricky one like English.

[EKS]

I don't think there have ever been any well controlled studies that look at just how well homeschooled children are doing in comparison to age peers in school.

 

Also, I believe Finland (which is the current poster child for wonderful public schools) doesn't start reading instruction until later. As as for what the United States believes, many people have their kids in preschools where they do early literacy training.

 

I personally think that the major problem with schools in the US is not what goes on in the early years, it is what *doesn't* happen starting around the 5th grade.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Phoney baloney. Even if you found a statistic that said that homeschoolers are ahead (and that statistic would not be nationwide because homeschoolers aren't tracked nationwide), being 5 - 10 years ahead would be ridiculous.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Yeah that does seem off. However, the book itself is a collection of speeches that John Gatto gave at various times, which is why it can seem repetitive:001_smile:.

[dangermom]

I just finished reading Dumbing Us Down today. I read a startling statistic in the book that homeschooled children are 5 to 10 years ahead of their peers in public schools. The statistic is not documented (no reference). Do you know where I can find that statistic? Just seems too general. Btw, I am not a fan of the book. IMO, it should have been a booklet. How many times and ways can you say public schools suck? :lol:

 

I don't believe that for a minute. I have to say--John Taylor Gatto is fun to read, but I think he often makes up things like that.

 

Also, I had a conversation with one of my friend's moms. She mentioned that the United States is one of the only countries in the world that believes that we should wait until our child is 6-7 years old to teach children to read. That most countries start teaching their children to read at 2-3 years of age (maybe parents do this?) I am a huge early literacy mom, but I was wondering whether you know where that information is found. I did not want to "call her out" because I really like my friend.:tongue_smilie:

 

Yeah, I don't believe that either. I used to live in Denmark, and they didn't send their kids to school until age 6 (daycare yes, school no), which is true all over Scandinavia AFAIK. My Russian SIL is all kinds of intellectual, but she didn't try to teach her kids to read at 2 or 3. Same with my Korean SIL. I have not asked my Japanese SIL, but I'm betting not.

I personally think that the major problem with schools in the US is not what goes on in the early years, it is what *doesn't* happen starting around the 5th grade.

 

BTW, I could not possibly agree with the above more.

[Mrs Mungo]

I just finished reading Dumbing Us Down today. I read a startling statistic in the book that homeschooled children are 5 to 10 years ahead of their peers in public schools. The statistic is not documented (no reference). Do you know where I can find that statistic? Just seems too general. Btw, I am not a fan of the book. IMO, it should have been a booklet. How many times and ways can you say public schools suck? :lol:

 

I'm pretty sure that Gatto was speaking from his personal opinions and experiences, not from documented sources.

 

Also, I had a conversation with one of my friend's moms. She mentioned that the United States is one of the only countries in the world that believes that we should wait until our child is 6-7 years old to teach children to read. That most countries start teaching their children to read at 2-3 years of age (maybe parents do this?) I am a huge early literacy mom, but I was wondering whether you know where that information is found. I did not want to "call her out" because I really like my friend.

 

I don't know of any countries that begin to teach formal reading at ages 2-3. Five to seven is the common range to begin to learn to read in Europe. Germany did a study comparing schools that began at 5 and Steiner schools, which begin at 7.

[kitten18]

I don't think there have ever been any well controlled studies that look at just how well homeschooled children are doing in comparison to age peers in school.

 

Also, I believe Finland (which is the current poster child for wonderful public schools) doesn't start reading instruction until later. As as for what the United States believes, many people have their kids in preschools where they do early literacy training.

 

I personally think that the major problem with schools in the US is not what goes on in the early years, it is what *doesn't* happen starting around the 5th grade.

I completely agree.

 

I did like Dumbing Us Down. It's what really pushed me over the edge into homeschooling. As a former PS teacher, much of what he said rang true for me.

[Tohru]

I don't think there have ever been any well controlled studies that look at just how well homeschooled children are doing in comparison to age peers in school.

 

Also, I believe Finland (which is the current poster child for wonderful public schools) doesn't start reading instruction until later. As as for what the United States believes, many people have their kids in preschools where they do early literacy training.

 

I personally think that the major problem with schools in the US is not what goes on in the early years, it is what *doesn't* happen starting around the 5th grade.

 

:iagree:

 

And I've never heard of a country that teaches children to read that young...maybe she misunderstood and it is 2nd-3rd grade. In Korea reading didn't start until age 7ish and it is a very easy, phonetic language.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

France starts teaching letters at age 2. There's formal "schooling" done in the "crèches", but it's not formal reading.

Still, when we joined the French system in kindergarten level, the kids were assumed to know how to read easy words at the start of kinder, so at age 5.

[angela in ohio]

I don't think 5-10 years even makes any sense. I think it's probably hyperbole.

 

There are no good statistics for homeschoolers in general, and there aren't likely to be without radical changes in homeschooling regulations. At that point, we'd have bigger problems and wouldn't even care about the statistics. ;)

[justasque]

Homeschoolers vary widely. Public schools vary widely. Standardized tests have their issues, but as an example, I've lived in a district where my local school's kids were scoring in the 12th percentile, and I've known homeschoolers who consistently score in the 90+ percentile. So *some* public schools are significantly below average, and *some* homeschoolers are significantly above average. But there are public schools where kids score well, and homeschools where kids score poorly. The "5-10 years ahead" argument is just way to general to be in any way useful, even if it was a well-referenced fact. (Also, insert rant about using standardized tests to judge/assess/rank school effectiveness.)

 

Public schools in general have pros and cons, and each particular public school has pros and cons. Ditto for homeschooling in general, and particular homeschools. Kids vary widely. What matters is what is the best environment for this particular child, at this particular time. It really doesn't matter how public schools in general may do, or how homeschools in general. What matters is the particular school(s) available to a family (public, private, home) and which one has the best fit of pros and cons for the child. More options = more chances for a good fit.

[joannqn]

I've read that the ERIC Clearinghouse on Assessment and Evaluation did a study and found that homeschool students were, on average, four years ahead by 8th grade. I can't find a link to that report, but here's a blog that summarizes it.

 

I can't confirm it though.

[Crimson Wife]

I read a statistic on NHERI one time that by 8th grade, students who had been homeschooled all along were testing on average at a grade level equivalent 4 years ahead of the average for PS. NHERI no longer appears to be making their fact sheets available free and I'm not about to pay $1 per sheet for that info!

[linders]

I personally think that the major problem with schools in the US is not what goes on in the early years, it is what *doesn't* happen starting around the 5th grade.

 

:iagree: An observation - all along I have compared (I know, bad thing to do) DS11 with his PS friends in terms of academics. Until last year, they seemed about equivalent, really. But in the past year we seem to be doing more - more writing, more complex reading (assigning Diary of a Wimpy Kid as the required reading in 5th grade? Seriously?), much more in depth history and science. Only the kids at the Catholic school seem to be doing what we are.

 

Don't know if this is just our location or a general thing in the U.S.

[Farrar]

 

I personally think that the major problem with schools in the US is not what goes on in the early years, it is what *doesn't* happen starting around the 5th grade.

 

For me, it's at both ends. Push, push, push for early skills as soon as possible and a refusal to let kids be on their own developmental time tables or to build a solid foundation. Then, at about middle school - when kids actually ought to be more caught up and on a similar level! - dumbing down, dumbing down. Completely backwards to me.

 

As for the original topic... stuff like that is one reason why I don't read Gatto anymore.

[EKS]

I read a statistic on NHERI one time that by 8th grade, students who had been homeschooled all along were testing on average at a grade level equivalent 4 years ahead of the average for PS.

 

In looking at my older son's grade equivalent scores from the ITBS he took at the end of 8th grade, a GE of 13+ for various subtests ranged from the 75th to the 99th percentile. So not necessarily so impressive. Far more impressive is being 4 grades ahead in 1st grade, as a lot more achievement takes place between 1st and 5th grade in US schools. For example, my younger son's end of 1st grade ITBS scores that had a GE of 4.5 or higher had percentiles ranging from 92-99, and that's only for a 2.5+ year jump rather than a 4 year jump.

[bettyandbob]

when my oldest was little and I was hanging around a group that identified itself as "eclectic homeschoolers" I used to hear statistics like this all the time. It was often quoted when some of the moms were discussing how they had not been doing any academic work. It seemed to be used as a justification to say that by merely keeping their children home they must be ahead of public schooled children. I looked like a weirdo at playground meetups with my WTM approach and we stopped hanging out with those groups.

 

Besides Finland, I read many years ago that Russia didn't teach reading until 7 or 8. It's my understanding that physical development issues that may cause issues with formal education have resolved for most children by that age.

 

I think we have problems in this country with the push to get started approach. At the same time people do not examine all the issues that could interrupt learning processes. So children who just need a little time are labeled innappropriately and children who probably have special needs are sent for the wrong interventions. I have a friend who is an opthamologist in Sweden. She has said all children are evaluated in preschool/early elementary for convergence issues and other things that would warrant vision therapy. In the US many people do not know to look for the issues that lead to VT. So, some children fall "behind" at young ages and people are labeling them dyslexic when the problem is a completely different issue.

[Trilliums]

when my oldest was little and I was hanging around a group that identified itself as "eclectic homeschoolers" I used to hear statistics like this all the time. It was often quoted when some of the moms were discussing how they had not been doing any academic work. It seemed to be used as a justification to say that by merely keeping their children home they must be ahead of public schooled children. I looked like a weirdo at playground meetups with my WTM approach and we stopped hanging out with those groups.

 

Besides Finland, I read many years ago that Russia didn't teach reading until 7 or 8. It's my understanding that physical development issues that may cause issues with formal education have resolved for most children by that age.

 

I think we have problems in this country with the push to get started approach. At the same time people do not examine all the issues that could interrupt learning processes. So children who just need a little time are labeled innappropriately and children who probably have special needs are sent for the wrong interventions. I have a friend who is an opthamologist in Sweden. She has said all children are evaluated in preschool/early elementary for convergence issues and other things that would warrant vision therapy. In the US many people do not know to look for the issues that lead to VT. So, some children fall "behind" at young ages and people are labeling them dyslexic when the problem is a completely different issue.

 

I wonder what they do for kids who are identified early on with issues. Here, when my 1st grader was identified with LDs, the school informed me that no assistance would be offered until he was two grade levels behind.

 

Delayed academics has turned out to be a great approach for DS, but that did not involve him sitting in a classroom falling behind his peers on specific skill sets. Instead, he progressed in areas of general information retained, vocab and critical thinking. Later, the academic mechanics have not been difficult to acquire.

[angela in ohio]

Unfortunately, much as I'd love to claim statistics like that, they really aren't that valid. They didn't use a randomly selected sample from the entire homeschool population. Most of the homeschoolers I know whose dc are average or behind would never go for a standardized test to begin with. Also, the face of homeschooling has changed a lot in the 14 years since the linked study was done.

[Word Nerd]

Gatto is interesting, but he doesn't cite sources to back up his claims. He is loose with the facts if they support his opinions. For example, he uses Diablo Cody as an example of someone who dropped out of school and was a success, yet she's a college graduate. Perhaps she dropped out of her prep school at some point, but I haven't been able to verify that anywhere. The only mentions I have found to her being a dropout are referring to Gatto's Weapons of Mass Instruction book. I wouldn't have even thought to look it up if I hadn't read an interview in which her college degree was mentioned. But it makes me wonder what else he claims that isn't true.

Edited April 8, 2012 by WordGirl

[prairiebird]

I like him but I hate random spurting of stats like that because if you're dealing with a child that is slower or just will never be that intellegent, it makes it look like homeschooling is failing him. Not every child is super-smart, but if sources keep throwing around things like, "Most kids that homeschool are 10 years ahead of their peers!" it makes the slower/special needs look like homeschooling them is failing when it might be the right speed and presentation.

[RoundAbout]

I like Gatto, and I'm sure his cynicism comes from being deeply immersed in the bureaucracy of the public school system, but I don't think these kinds of quotes are accurate or helpful.

 

Many people homeschool because their kids have special needs that are not being met. These kids are probably better off at home, but not 5 years ahead. I also know a few unschoolers who although articulate, interesting, and self-directed are not at all ahead academically. If a homeschooler does have exceptional talent and focus they probably could be 5-10 years ahead, as homeschooling allows for that kind of acceleration pretty easily, but I don't think its the norm and probably not in more than one area.

[Hot Lava Mama]

It has a huge waiting list, so I have to finish it before the due date (no renewal if there is a waiting list).

 

It's possible that I am way out in left field (not unknown territory for me!), but I seem to be getting something different from the book. It seems to me he is talking about the whole structure of the system being the culprit of why the kids are "dummed down". He talks about the notion of the "bells" that determines when you are done with one subject and must move on to another and how that teaches a child to not care about getting too involved in anything. Also, he seems to be talking a lot about how the school system tears the child away from the family and eats up a lot of family time by also sending homework for the child to do. Thus, strengthening the "we are in charge" feeling of the school system. I thought he mentioned several times how there are good public school teachers as well as terrible home school teachers. I seem to read that he thinks the stucture is what the problem is for the school system, and that is what needs to change. I really didn't get anything about when is the "right" time is to teach a certain subject versus another.

 

Did anyone else get that or am I way off?

Hot Lava Mama

[Dmmetler]

I also think that even in cases where homeschoolers ARE ahead he may be confusing correlation and causation. My DD is indeed, based on standardized testing, 5-10 years ahead of her grade level in most areas (for example, she hits post-high school on tests of vocabulary and on most language arts areas, and by age, she should be finishing 1st grade) But that's not because she's homeschooled. Rather, it's that she's homeschooled because the schools can't accommodate a child who is years ahead in some areas, but is, if anything, immature in others in the same way that I can do so at home. I know quite a few people who have chosen to homeschool kids who test extremely well for that reason-and since the programs like EPGY and CTY require test scores for participation, it makes sense that, especially in states where standardized testing isn't required or is one option, you'd see more parents of those high scoring kids choosing to test rather than taking other options, since it can serve multiple purposes.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Gatto is the type of person who will climb a tree to tell a lie when the truth is on the ground.

[Laura Corin]

It used to start in Year 1 (age 5-6) but the government is pushing it earlier. I don't think it does much good.

 

I volunteered in Calvin's pre-school in Hong Kong when he was age 3-4. They were teaching reading, and there were children who, using phonics, had completely cracked it and were zooming ahead. Other children were confused and, it seemed to me, starting to feel really stupid. They were already discouraged.

 

I strongly believe that reading readiness is a developmental stage, and pushing it too early just leads to distress. In an ideal world, children would be taught individually as they became able. In a classroom, waiting until at least five or six is better.

 

Laura

[Onceuponatime]

I just finished reading Dumbing Us Down today. I read a startling statistic in the book that homeschooled children are 5 to 10 years ahead of their peers in public schools. The statistic is not documented (no reference). Do you know where I can find that statistic? Just seems too general. Btw, I am not a fan of the book. IMO, it should have been a booklet. How many times and ways can you say public schools suck? :lol:

 

Also, I had a conversation with one of my friend's moms. She mentioned that the United States is one of the only countries in the world that believes that we should wait until our child is 6-7 years old to teach children to read. That most countries start teaching their children to read at 2-3 years of age (maybe parents do this?) I am a huge early literacy mom, but I was wondering whether you know where that information is found. I did not want to "call her out" because I really like my friend.:tongue_smilie:

 

I'm not sure the above is true. However, in my experience, teaching children to read is much easier than most people think. I don't have particularly brilliant children, but I taught all 5 of mine quickly, with a minimum of fuss. I always started formal reading lessons at 5yo. At the end of one year they were 2-5 years ahead of their peers in ability, not necessarily in comprehension. I just don't see the point of teaching reading much younger unless the child is anxious to learn.