Spin off question from children in church thread...

[Kelli in TN]

My question, after reading through the responses and seeing the majority of them are supportive of folks keeping their children with them in worship is this:

 

What do you *really* think of families who willingly, nay, happily, send their children to classes/worship time for kids and want to sit in the sanctuary with only grownups and teens? (Well, that and wee bairns who are not yet ready for the nursery)

 

Are we being judged and found wanting in the area of developing our children spiritually? Are we found to be negligent in the area of training our children to behave in God's house? Are our choices considered divisive to the family unit?

[Mom2legomaniacs]

Different strokes for different folks. If that's what works for you and your family, that's fine by me. No judging here. Mine stay with us. Younger ds has never like the nursery/children's group. He is not a group kind of kid. He like more one on one time with others. Can't say I blame him. So he stays with us. I would hope no one gets upset that ours stay with us. I certainly don't mind if others send theirs on. Really okay any which way as long as folks are reasonably respectable with what they do.

[mommaduck]

Like any issue, there are those that will and those that will not. I've had people judge me for keeping my children with me.

[Kelli in TN]

Like any issue, there are those that will and those that will not. I've had people judge me for keeping my children with me.

 

 

Yes, but that question was dealt with in the other thread. That is what inspired this thread.

 

I really, truly want to know if people are judging over this issue. It never occurred to me to judge someone for taking their kids to the service with them. Never crossed my mind. And it never crossed my mind that someone would be judging me. But after reading some of the comments in the other thread, I am beginning to wonder if taking one's children into the service is more than just a personal preference.

[Erica in PA]

I'm sort of in the middle on this issue.. we send our kids (up to age 7) to junior church during the morning service 3 weeks of the month, but it's during the sermon only. The rest of the service they sit with us, through the singing and prayer, etc. The 1st week of the month all the children stay in for the entire service. Sunday evenings our children stay with us for the entire service. And our kids stay in the nursery until they are able to sit quietly and also participate in the service, when they are about 3.

 

I think people's responses to this are sort of like the way different homeschoolers feel about public school. Some people who have strong principled reasons for always keeping their children with them probably do feel that it's the best choice across the board, and think people like me aren't doing what's best for the church or the family, just as some homeschoolers feel that public schools aren't the best choice for education. Others who do this for more practical reasons (i.e. they don't like the nursery conditions or their children want to stay with them) might feel that it's more of a personal preference, as some homeschoolers view their choice for homeschooling.

 

Personally, if I decide something based on solid biblical principles, I'm not likely to think that all alternatives are equal, so I would think that those who view "family worship" in that way would not be likely to think that what they'd view as splitting up the family at church would be a good choice, for anyone.

 

Erica

[Remudamom]

Let's see if I can say what I think. I feel they are making a mistake, but it's their mistake to make and not one bit of my business.

 

ETA- I don't feel like I'm judging here, just my own personal opinion. There's a judge alright, but it ain't me.

[Kelli in TN]

Let's see if I can say what I think. I feel they are making a mistake, but it's their mistake to make and not one bit of my business.

 

ETA- I don't feel like I'm judging here, just my own personal opinion. There's a judge alright, but it ain't me.

 

Well. Thank you for being so honest. I actually wanted to know. Now I know.

[Scarlett]

We keep our kids with us. "We" being everyone. There is no nursery or Sunday School or Children's Church.

 

Frankly, (and there is no malice in my tone here) I am surprised that so many of you who homeschool send your kids to someone else for/during spiritual instruction. Seems a little odd to me that you (the collective you) go to such great personal sacrifice to homeschool because you don't want others to teach your kids academics....but don't mind sending them to someone else for religious training. Shrug.

[Julie Herbster]

I'm sort of in the middle on this issue.. we send our kids (up to age 7) to junior church during the morning service 3 weeks of the month, but it's during the sermon only. The rest of the service they sit with us, through the singing and prayer, etc. The 1st week of the month all the children stay in for the entire service. Sunday evenings our children stay with us for the entire service. And our kids stay in the nursery until they are able to sit quietly and also participate in the service, when they are about 3.

 

I think people's responses to this are sort of like the way different homeschoolers feel about public school. Some people who have strong principled reasons for always keeping their children with them probably do feel that it's the best choice across the board, and think people like me aren't doing what's best for the church or the family, just as some homeschoolers feel that public schools aren't the best choice for education. Others who do this for more practical reasons (i.e. they don't like the nursery conditions or their children want to stay with them) might feel that it's more of a personal preference, as some homeschoolers view their choice for homeschooling.

 

Personally, if I decide something based on solid biblical principles, I'm not likely to think that all alternatives are equal, so I would think that those who view "family worship" in that way would not be likely to think that what they'd view as splitting up the family at church would be a good choice, for anyone.

 

Erica

Erica, I tried to rep you for this thoughtful answer, but apparently I've repped you too much (?) before. I think you've nailed it. "Preferences" are different than "convictions," but the line between these two ideas is not always clear, even in the person's mind who holds the preference or conviction. I know that in my own mind, what I like to call "preferences" might really, deep down, be "convictions" (and vice versa).

 

Our family worships together, but we're not "against" those who choose not to. We do think that worshiping together best follows the model given in Scripture for the church, BUT we also understand that we don't have a "corner on truth"...Nowhere is it spelled out, so it seems to be a matter of parental discernment and liberty to choose. So...Is my perspective on this a "preference" or a "conviction?" :tongue_smilie: I will add that when we visit my FIL's large church (he's a pastor), I do allow my children to attend the kid's Sunday p.m. program with their friends and family there. So, maybe I'm just inconsistent!

[runningirl71]

And I can say that there was never judging, but I did ask the question to myself: "I wander why so and so prefers this?" I never judged those who preferred to keep their kids in church with them as doing something wrong, but did wonder how they could take care of their kids and STILL concentrate on what was going on. And, when I started keeping my kids in church with me, I never judged those parents who sent their kids to children's church.

 

Over time our philosophy of church has made some dramatic changes and we do hold to the belief of the family worshiping together as a family. What that looks on the outside could be different for each family. Also, I feel like dh and I are the main disciplers of our children and that discipling happens in the home every day. I do feel parents need to take personal responsibility to nurture their children's spiritual life, but that does not in any way equal keeping your kids in a worship service with you. :)

[dangermom]

Well, my church doesn't work like that. There's a general meeting with everyone, and then we split into classes, so we have both family time and class time. But anyway, I don't think I'm "sending my kids to someone else for their spiritual instruction." 99% of a child's spiritual instruction ought to be happening in the home during the week.

 

Two hours a week in a Sunday School program isn't actually all that much. The lessons are straight from the scriptures and the church. I have loved all my kids' teachers (and I've frequently been a teacher to other kids). I've always requested that I not be assigned to my own kid's class, because I do want them to have a little variety, and this is a good place for it. Meanwhile, the majority of their spiritual instruction is still happening within the family.

 

I don't want my kids to think that I believe I'm the only person capable of teaching them--that isn't true. Many people in my church are far more capable than I am.

[TravelingChris]

I don't necessarily send my children out to Sunday School for religious instructions (though occasionally they do learn something). Everyone in my family attends Sunday School for different reasons. Both my husband and I attend for discussion with believers and getting new viewpoints and concentrating on some subject. My older daughter gets to develop her debating points and also learns how others think about issues. My younger daughter helps younger children learn how to find verses in the Bible, helps younger children with crafts, makes crafts and has some social time. Since my children are homeschooled, they like seeing their friends in Sunday School. Both girls attend church services with us with one being an acolyte and the other being a member of the adult choir.

[Remudamom]

Well. Thank you for being so honest. I actually wanted to know. Now I know.

 

 

Ugh. I feel like I slapped you right across the face. It was not my intent, really.

 

At ONE church, with ONE set of very special teachers we let ours go for a summer. They were all around four, and previously sat with us, and after that little interlude they sat with us again.

 

That was the only time we did that, and I haven't been anywhere I would do it again. Even if the teachers are outstanding I just want mine to learn to worship as a family.

[Staci in MO]

Our church only has nursery for three and under. Children's church is only for ages 4 through 7, and only for the sermon. Kids sit with their parents for the singing and prayer. Our sermons are usually 45 minutes and longer, so even the best behaved four-year-old is going to be bored sitting through all that. Our children's church has songs, a Bible lesson, and a craft.

 

Some churches, though, have programs for all the way through high school. In one local church the kids (up through, I think, eighth grade) play games during the entire service. I've even heard of some churches where the kids watch movies and play video games.

 

So while I may be scratching my head, wondering why anyone would object to allowing their four-year-old go listen to a Bible lesson so I can concentrate and take notes for a very in-depth forty-five minute sermon, another person here may be wondering why I would send my twelve-year-old to play video games.

 

But even at that, I'll join you in the failure line, Kelli. I was very, very thankful for the nursery when my children were young. It was very nice to focus on the sermon. My two oldest now sit with us during the entire service, they are able to glean something from the sermon each week. My first grader goes to children's church, and he learns much more in there than he would sitting with us.

 

My grandparent's church didn't have a children's program. And while it didn't kill me to sit with them during the times I went to church with them, I can't say I enjoyed it much, either.

[elegantlion]

 

Frankly, (and there is no malice in my tone here) I am surprised that so many of you who homeschool send your kids to someone else for/during spiritual instruction. Seems a little odd to me that you (the collective you) go to such great personal sacrifice to homeschool because you don't want others to teach your kids academics....but don't mind sending them to someone else for religious training. Shrug.

 

 

We have always sent our ds to Sunday School. We are between churches at this point, so my viewpoint might change. We do the bulk of our religious training at home, so anything he gets at church is "extra". We considered his Sunday school time a place to get together with his friends and be a kid, not necessarily to receive all the instruction we felt necessary.

 

In our previous church (we moved) I was active in the leadership. I fully trusted the people in charge of children's ministry and knew everything that went on. I was also at church from 7:30 to almost 1:00 and busy with worship ministry 3 Sundays out of the month, so dh would bring him when he came for services.

 

I hold no strong convictions either way. It is not the norm in the churches I've been in for children to be with their parents. I don't judge either way, I believe it's a family decision.

[Erica in PA]

We keep our kids with us. "We" being everyone. There is no nursery or Sunday School or Children's Church.

 

Frankly, (and there is no malice in my tone here) I am surprised that so many of you who homeschool send your kids to someone else for/during spiritual instruction. Seems a little odd to me that you (the collective you) go to such great personal sacrifice to homeschool because you don't want others to teach your kids academics....but don't mind sending them to someone else for religious training. Shrug.

 

Well, I'm surprised that you're surprised! :tongue_smilie: I think you have some significant misperceptions about people who do things differently from you. There is no contradiction between homeschooling, and allowing your children to participate in Sunday school classes. Spiritual training is a huge part of our homeschool. It's one of the main reasons that we homeschool, so that we can teach our children according to a biblical worldview, and so that we can be there to guide them in their faith as they grow. We do that on an ongoing basis throughout our days, every day. So we can part with them for an hour or two on Sunday mornings, so that they can learn from others in our local body of believers who are gifted in teaching children. They can learn additional lessons there on their level that they can understand and benefit from, as a supplement to (not a replacement for) all the teaching they receive at home. Our children have formed good, godly relationships with their teachers at church, and with other children, and I know that Sunday school has been a wonderful help in raising our children for the Lord.

 

Just as co-op classes are a helpful asset to a homeschooling program, Sunday school classes are a helpful asset (and blessing!) to parents seeking to teach their children about God.

 

Erica

[Julie Herbster]

We keep our kids with us. "We" being everyone. There is no nursery or Sunday School or Children's Church.

Our church seems similar to yours. It is the norm for families to worship together (although we do have SS and nursery available).

 

Frankly, (and there is no malice in my tone here) I am surprised that so many of you who homeschool send your kids to someone else for/during spiritual instruction. Seems a little odd to me that you (the collective you) go to such great personal sacrifice to homeschool because you don't want others to teach your kids academics....but don't mind sending them to someone else for religious training. Shrug.

I think you have to keep in mind that "homeschooling" doesn't always mean one-on-one instruction between parent and child. We've got co-ops, DVD classes, online instruction, etc., all used by "homeschooling" parents. In each of these venues, someone else is doing the instructing. The parent has indeed "delegated" the educational responsibility to someone else.

 

I am actually the teacher of my dd's Sunday school class. (Our church is comprised primarily of homeschooling families, so you might call it a kind of co-op.)

 

Also, if religious instruction is taking place ONLY on Sunday, and the parents aren't taking advantage of the other six days to train their children in the ways of God, then a different kind of neglect is happening. Our kids get the bulk of their spiritual training at home. Church is where we all get to sit back and listen to someone else teach us about God. (We as parents aren't doing any "instruction" on Sunday, anyway, except for modeling what worship looks like.)

[Gwen in VA]

We have attended a family-integrated church in the past and may be going back to it soon. Right now we are attending a Sunday-school-is-the-only-way-to-meet-other-kids church.

 

We aren't crazy about the Sunday school, the way it's taught, or the subject matter. My kids all say that the actual material is "baby-ish". We have thought about doing something at home during that time, but if they don't do Sunday school they will never ever meet any of the other kids!

 

Sunday school does have a role in addition to the main spiritual development one -- the social one! It may not be a wonderful reason for kids to attend Sunday school, but since we are not in a homeschool group, church is the main way my kids meet other Christian kids, and the easiest way to meet kids is through Sunday school!

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Our kids are in church with us during the worship time through the prayer time. During the sermon, the kids are dismisssed to attend their Sunday school classes which are heavy in discipleship. My oldest dd13, teaches the older girls class, this is her ministry here. She's bi-lingual so she can teach in both languages which is needed in our church.

 

During our Thursday night midweek service at our coffee house ministry here in Antigua, our kids stay with us because there isn't anything else for them.

 

Most of our religious instruction is done in our home, woven through our home school, or by my dh during family devotional times. We don't look at it as sending our kids to someone else for religious instruction, we look at it as we are the body of Christ and our dc can learn from others being very hands-on and speaking into their lives as well as from us. That's important. We are so isolated here in some ways that being with other children for my dc is a treat!

[Kelli in TN]

Some churches, though, have programs for all the way through high school. In one local church the kids (up through, I think, eighth grade) play games during the entire service. I've even heard of some churches where the kids watch movies and play video games.

 

 

Wow. We have video games at our church, but they are turned off as soon as the official church start time rolls around. They are part of the fellowship time before and after church, but never during. The teaching can be pretty in depth at times.

 

Our kids program runs like grownup church. They have praise and worship followed by a "sermon", but it is all at their level.

 

On Wednesday nights the kids are divided up by age and have classes. We don't have Sunday school.

 

6th grade and up are in the sanctuary on Sunday, but have youth groups on Wednesday.

 

If my kids were not learning in church they might be in the service with me, or more likely we would be church shopping because I would have serious reservations about the church's commitment to the next generation.

[Staci in MO]

With like-minded teachers that I love as much as I love the fellow members of my church, my kids would be at that school.:D

 

I know you meant no malice, and I don't take your point personally, but I don't consider my kids' Sunday School teachers as some vague "someone else." These people are my good friends. I teach their kids sometimes, and sometimes they teach mine.

 

My church is far from perfect, but we are like-minded when it comes to spiritual matters.

[Kelli in TN]

Also, if religious instruction is taking place ONLY on Sunday, and the parents aren't taking advantage of the other six days to train their children in the ways of God, then a different kind of neglect is happening. Our kids get the bulk of their spiritual training at home. Church is where we all get to sit back and listen to someone else teach us about God. (We as parents aren't doing any "instruction" on Sunday, anyway, except for modeling what worship looks like.)

 

This is how I have always viewed it. I am responsible for their spiritual development and I do take that responsibility very seriously.

 

The time we spend at church is such a small time period compared to the rest of life. I feel like there is a time for me to be free to concentrate on my spiritual needs and church seems like a good place for that. When I know that they are safe, they are learning from someone I trust, then I am free to really focus on what God wants me to hear through my church's worship time and through my pastor's teaching.

[Kelli in TN]

Frankly, (and there is no malice in my tone here) I am surprised that so many of you who homeschool send your kids to someone else for/during spiritual instruction. Seems a little odd to me that you (the collective you) go to such great personal sacrifice to homeschool because you don't want others to teach your kids academics....but don't mind sending them to someone else for religious training. Shrug.

 

This was sort of the vibe I was picking up in the other thread, which is why I started this thread. I wanted to explore this and see if people really are viewing me, and others, in this way.

 

Thank you for being so honest and upfront about it. I appreciate it, I truly wanted to know as it had never occurred to me that others might feel this way.

[Prairie~Phlox]

We keep our kids with us. "We" being everyone. There is no nursery or Sunday School or Children's Church.

 

Frankly, (and there is no malice in my tone here) I am surprised that so many of you who homeschool send your kids to someone else for/during spiritual instruction. Seems a little odd to me that you (the collective you) go to such great personal sacrifice to homeschool because you don't want others to teach your kids academics....but don't mind sending them to someone else for religious training. Shrug.

 

I agree with this, we have no option and even if we did, our children would still sit with us. It amazes me that years ago, children would have to sit in church for hours on end, they learned how to just fine. Children have to go, go go and can't sit still for even 20 minutes. Our pastor preaches for 40-50 minutes, my daughter gets excited listening to him and has an understanding probably better than peers her age. Parenting in the Pew is a great book!! If you have a pastor knowingly talking about things that you don't want your children to hear, then I would either re asses your pastor or what you want your children to hear. We are open and honest with our children and will explain things if we feel they may have heard something that they don't understand.

Blessings,

~Phlox

[Staci in MO]

I was puzzled why some here were objecting to youth group. Our youth pastor is in his mid-forties, and the other youth leaders either are parents of teens or married couples.

 

Then I realized that some youth programs were being led by kids barely out of high school, and that they were discouraging parent participation.

 

Those are two entirely different things.

 

Some people may still not agree with children's church, even those set up exactly like the one at my church, but there's such a wide variety in the way children's programs are run, I think it's important to realize we may all be talking about different things.

[Lizzie in Ma]

Their kids, their decisions. :001_smile:

[Kate CA]

If my kids were not learning in church they might be in the service with me, or more likely we would be church shopping because I would have serious reservations about the church's commitment to the next generation.

 

Are you saying that a church that does not offer children's church would not be committed to the next generation or are you saying that no matter where you children are (in church or in children's church) you just want them learning? Trying to understand your last statement. :)

[Bess]

Well, as you can tell from my last post, I'm so worried about what other people must think of *us* that I don't spend the time thinking about why other people send their children off.

 

If nothing else, I can understand more why someone would send their children to sunday school/children's church because it's what has been done for decades now and is the normal thing to do.

[Kate CA]

Some people may still not agree with children's church, even those set up exactly like the one at my church, but there's such a wide variety in the way children's programs are run, I think it's important to realize we may all be talking about different things.

 

This is a very good point. :)

[Staci in MO]

I have been coming out in the pro-children's church camp, but I have never attended a church where any sort of program was offered for children over age eight. I attended children's church as a child, but after about second grade we all sat with our parents during worship.

 

I think that several of us have different ideas of what actually constitutes children's church.

[Kelli in TN]

 

Are you saying that a church that does not offer children's church would not be committed to the next generation or are you saying that no matter where you children are (in church or in children's church) you just want them learning? Trying to understand your last statement. :)

 

Oh, sorry, that was fuzzy wasn't it?

 

I am saying that if a church says it has a children's program as an alternative and that program is simply a play time for school age children and no real teaching goes on, then I would probably have reservations about that church's commitment to the next generation. If a church is not going to use that time productively, then they should say so and dismiss the children to go to the sanctuary. Immediately!

[swellmomma]

We keep our kids with us. "We" being everyone. There is no nursery or Sunday School or Children's Church.

 

Frankly, (and there is no malice in my tone here) I am surprised that so many of you who homeschool send your kids to someone else for/during spiritual instruction. Seems a little odd to me that you (the collective you) go to such great personal sacrifice to homeschool because you don't want others to teach your kids academics....but don't mind sending them to someone else for religious training. Shrug.

 

 

I'll answer this based on my situation. I not only gladly send my kids to the children's program but would not attend a church that forced me to keep them with me. I am a single parent, their father has been out of the picture for 7 years, he does not see them. The 2 oldest have diagnosised disabilities that drive me up the proverbial wall, the 3rd in line is having so many bowel issues I have to change poop filled underwear 4-5 times a day, not to mention he is a normal wild 4 year old, add a baby in the mix, never a break, kids that stay up till midnight, a never ending mound of stuff to be done and a healthy dose of post partum depression. Once a week during church I get 1.5 hours to myself. That is how long our services are including worship time (30 minutes of worship followed by 60 minutes of sermon), 9 times out of 10 we miss worship because my oldest made it such a battle to get out the door. Without that break each week, to focus on the Lord and gather my wits about me, I could honestly say I could not face another day, I am so worn down and hanging by the tiniest sliver of hope, I renew that each Sunday. I homeschool because it is what is best for my children, I do so willingly, but it wears me right down. I need that time no matter how short it is to get away from my children or I guarantee I will lose my mind and snap. This is what keeps my family going. SO judge if you must, I take care of my children's religious upbringing everyday all day all week long. Turning over the reigns for 60-90 minutes won't kill them, but forcing them to stay with me, increasing my stress level v ery well might kill me. Of course my situation is not typical, but without someone else to take over in the evenings even for 30 minutes, or to be the one that stays up with the kids till midnight trying to get them to sleep, or running down the street searching for the child that took off again, or pulling knives or lighters out of the hands of a child bent on destruction, or someone to get up at 6 am when the fighting between the kids starts, then hey maybe I would be more likely to keep them with me.

 

Honestly I think God gave me this particular church to attend knowing that I was at the point of having more than I could deal with. He sent me to a church with a very good children's program so I could be rid of my children even for a short while each week.

[Kelli in TN]

I hate mentioning anon. rep on the forums, I really, really hate to do this. But if you sent me the message apologizing for offending me, please know that you did not offend me at all.

 

I asked the question because I really wanted to know. I truly appreciate the honesty. Really, truly, honestly, I do!! I promise I am not offended at all. Some of the answers stung a little bit, but that is not the same thing as offending by a long shot. I was just surprised that people would think I was not taking responsibility for my children's spiritual development, but I think it helps me to understand how I might be perceived by others. I am not offended. I promise. Please keep giving honest answers.

[Danestress]

We keep our kids with us. "We" being everyone. There is no nursery or Sunday School or Children's Church.

 

Frankly, (and there is no malice in my tone here) I am surprised that so many of you who homeschool send your kids to someone else for/during spiritual instruction. Seems a little odd to me that you (the collective you) go to such great personal sacrifice to homeschool because you don't want others to teach your kids academics....but don't mind sending them to someone else for religious training. Shrug.

 

 

Well, they do about 10 hours a week of religious training with me and maybe 45 with others. I actually don't think of church as the place they get their religious education. They get it in the home. I really get most of mine in the home too through personal study. There's just only so much you can do with a hour and a half one morning a week, and I am not an oral learner. I need to read and study.

 

But anyway, these "others" who give my children this class are our brothers and sisters in Christ with whom we have a very special and long term bond and a lot of acountability. I actually like that my children have those relationships - I want them to have Christian adults deep in their lives. If I were visiting your church, I might not just send them off for "education by the strange woman we've never met." But in my church? These are family members. To me, thats what a church is.

 

That said, I think my boys (at ten) are at an age where they need to be in listening to the sermon. We are ready, and will be making that transition this fall.

[kokotg]

I send some of my kids away and keep one with me, so that I can get judgment from everyone ;). My seven year old isn't interested in going to children's worship, so he stays with us. Our church has a nursery for kids up to 3, so my 2 year old goes there. And then there's "extended care" where 3 and 4 year olds go after the first few minutes of the church service. So my just turned 5 year old has been going there, but he'll start going to children's worship (also after the first part of the church service) in the fall, which might in turn mean that my seven year old wants to go there, too. Sunday school (for adults and children) is before our church service. The kids go to their classes, and we go to ours, but we have always felt free to bring the toddler into our class when we've needed to.

 

I'm genuinely perplexed by the contention that Sunday school or children's church are somehow philosophically at odds with homeschooling. I guess I just view homeschooling differently; I don't feel like it means I never want other people teaching my children. Quite the contrary, I see one of the advantages of homeschooling as being that we have more time to seek out mentors who can share their areas of expertise with my kids. They have, at various times, gotten outside instruction in art, soccer, spanish, gymnastics, chess, and music. I certainly don't have a problem with people we care about and trust in our church community also sharing their knowledge with our kids. And, as others have said, Sunday isn't the only day they get spiritual instruction. For me, homeschooling means I am able to meet my children's unique needs, whatever those might be. I'm grateful to have a church that allows me to do that for each of my children in different ways, without judgment.

[Pensguys]

Well, I'm surprised that you're surprised! :tongue_smilie: I think you have some significant misperceptions about people who do things differently from you. There is no contradiction between homeschooling, and allowing your children to participate in Sunday school classes. Spiritual training is a huge part of our homeschool. It's one of the main reasons that we homeschool, so that we can teach our children according to a biblical worldview, and so that we can be there to guide them in their faith as they grow. We do that on an ongoing basis throughout our days, every day. So we can part with them for an hour or two on Sunday mornings, so that they can learn from others in our local body of believers who are gifted in teaching children. They can learn additional lessons there on their level that they can understand and benefit from, as a supplement to (not a replacement for) all the teaching they receive at home. Our children have formed good, godly relationships with their teachers at church, and with other children, and I know that Sunday school has been a wonderful help in raising our children for the Lord.

 

Erica

 

YES! :iagree:

 

BECAUSE I know the people who are teaching my children during Sunday School (our Sunday School means age segmented classes from nursery up through Senior Adults), and I know WHO picks out the materials, I don't have a doubt that the teaching isn't something I wouldn't want to be taught to my children.

[Mx5]

My question, after reading through the responses and seeing the majority of them are supportive of folks keeping their children with them in worship is this:

 

What do you *really* think of families who willingly, nay, happily, send their children to classes/worship time for kids and want to sit in the sanctuary with only grownups and teens? (Well, that and wee bairns who are not yet ready for the nursery)

 

Are we being judged and found wanting in the area of developing our children spiritually? Are we found to be negligent in the area of training our children to behave in God's house? Are our choices considered divisive to the family unit?

 

I like the wisdom of the book of Ecclesiastes. There's one verse that my pastor's wife taught me in my early years as a new believer and a teen. Here it is, Ecclesiastes 7:21,22:

 

Do not take to heart all the things that people say, lest you hear your servant cursing you. Your heart knows that many times you yourself have cursed others.

 

It will not profit you a bit to find out if you're being judged by others. All it will do is make you angry and defensive. All you can do is do what you feel is the best for your children and you & your husband, and run with it. You know you have harshly judged others in your heart for their choices, just as every single human has, and will.

 

As for this particular choice, much depends on what the children's programs are like. If you've done your homework, checked out the teachers and curriculum, it'll be easier to not worry about your decision, or what others think.

[Kelli in TN]

 

 

It will not profit you a bit to find out if you're being judged by others. All it will do is make you angry and defensive.

.

 

Not really. I am truly not having that reaction. It does help me trememdously to understand another person's point of view. It helps me to understand why people disagree with homeschooling. It helps me to understand people who feel differently about politics than I do. It helps me to understand why people feel differently about God than I do.

 

Understanding other people has numerous benefits to me. I am not so insecure that I cannot handle the truth.

[Mx5]

We keep our kids with us. "We" being everyone. There is no nursery or Sunday School or Children's Church.

 

Frankly, (and there is no malice in my tone here) I am surprised that so many of you who homeschool send your kids to someone else for/during spiritual instruction. Seems a little odd to me that you (the collective you) go to such great personal sacrifice to homeschool because you don't want others to teach your kids academics....but don't mind sending them to someone else for religious training. Shrug.

 

To me, spiritual training is so much more than what happens between 9-11AM on a Sunday morning. 20+ years in youth ministry has taught my dh that it's not so much what's taught in Sunday School or Children's Church, but how mom and dad live at home that is the indicator of how a kid will do spiritually. Yes, SS & CC can be tools for spiritual training, and I do think every parent regardless of how their child is learning (homeschool or public) has a responsibility to know what is being taught to their kids, and who is doing the teaching. Good doctrine, good teacher, cool. Sloppy doctrine, harsh teacher, bad.

[Kate CA]

 

Oh, sorry, that was fuzzy wasn't it?

 

I am saying that if a church says it has a children's program as an alternative and that program is simply a play time for school age children and no real teaching goes on, then I would probably have reservations about that church's commitment to the next generation. If a church is not going to use that time productively, then they should say so and dismiss the children to go to the sanctuary. Immediately!

 

Oh, OK, I totally see what you are saying. :) Thanks for clarifying that!

 

And I know your post was not to me, but since it was under the post you made to me I thought I would make sure you knew it wasn't me sending anything anon. (But I think you know me well enough by now to know I wouldn't.) :D

[Remudamom]

I hate mentioning anon. rep on the forums, I really, really hate to do this. But if you sent me the message apologizing for offending me, please know that you did not offend me at all.

 

I asked the question because I really wanted to know. I truly appreciate the honesty. Really, truly, honestly, I do!! I promise I am not offended at all. Some of the answers stung a little bit, but that is not the same thing as offending by a long shot. I was just surprised that people would think I was not taking responsibility for my children's spiritual development, but I think it helps me to understand how I might be perceived by others. I am not offended. I promise. Please keep giving honest answers.

 

Dang, that was me, I just forgot to sign my name. That's the first anon rep I've (mistakenly) given.

 

I DO NOT think you are not taking responsibility for your children's spiritual development. Far from it. I just think you're missing a great opportunity for some great training, that's all.

[Kelli in TN]

 

Oh, OK, I totally see what you are saying. :) Thanks for clarifying that!

 

And I know your post was not to me, but since it was under the post you made to me I thought I would make sure you knew it wasn't me sending anything anon. (But I think you know me well enough by now to know I wouldn't.) :D

 

Well, I have yet to figure out how to make posts line up under the posts they are intended to respond to! And that one, I don't know who I am responding to, anyway!!! It was not a negative, it was a positive and it was sincere and nice, I just feel bad that someone thinks I am offended by the answers to my own question. I am just not like that.

[Kelli in TN]

Dang, that was me, I just forgot to sign my name. That's the first anon rep I've (mistakenly) given.

 

I DO NOT think you are not taking responsibility for your children's spiritual development. Far from it. I just think you're missing a great opportunity for some great training, that's all.

 

I really do appreciate that you are being honest with me. I am not offended by it in the least.

[Sahamamama]

I think that if, early on, we had seen and felt a genuine concern for every child's safety, we would have had no problem putting our oldest into the nursery (at that time, now she's 3.5 years old and would go into the youngest Children's Church class).

 

I worked as a Children's Church teacher for years and years (too many to count, LOL) in another church before I married and had children. The workers there were always and routinely screened. Here, there is none of that, because "everyone knows everyone." But if you come in as a "new person," you really don't know everyone, and it's disconcerting to see one little girl in a classroom with one male teacher and a closed door. Actually, any arrangement involving one student (any gender) and one teacher (any gender) would deeply concern me.

 

Perhaps it's because for years before I married I was also a social worker (I know, I know, the Big, Bad Wolf!). Well, let me tell you, I have counseled children who have been molested and abused, and usually it was by someone known to the child and family. It is not something I want my children to ever go through, obviously, but our church does not seem to sense that the set-up they currently have is NOT effective.

 

In my opinion, there should always be fingerprint, FBI-databased screening of ALL church workers who are given access to children and youth.

 

Secondly, there should never be a situation in which one adult is alone with one or two children.

 

Thirdly, I think that when adults are paired to work in a classroom together, they should be unrelated adults (over the age of 15), not a husband-wife team, not a mother-daughter team, not an adult and a young teenager. I realize that this is a radical departure from the way most churches do and even CAN do things, but these should still be the goals that every children's ministry works towards.

 

Finally, I think that the church should let it be known that they have a conscious commitment to protecting children, that no one will be given access to children without going through a screening, that there are safeguards in place, and that people will be protecting the children. If there are abusers/pedophiles lurking in the congregation, they will be warned away.

 

Some might think that I am being hyper-vigilant, and perhaps I am. But, as I said in the other thread, I have been in the narthex with unsupervised toddlers (one at a time, on several ocassions) running around. I tell you truthfully, I could have walked off with: Brandon, Ethan, Zacharay, and some other little boy whose name escapes me (Lyle? Kyle?). They are precious children, and their parents had NO IDEA that they were unsupervised, when they placed them in the "care" of the nursery/toddler workers! Wouldn't you, as a parent, be horrified to see that this is the repeated pattern of the nursery staff? They were completely unaware that X child was missing, until I brought the child back. On one ocassion, the 12 year old in the nursery room was more responsible than the adult -- I heard her say, "Is Ethan supposed to be out there by himself?" Then the adult in charge flew into action, but, honestly, I could have walked out with Ethan (he knows me) and put that boy in my trunk.

 

I would like people to consider what COULD have happened to any of these children, and ask, Would you be willing to let that happen to YOUR child?

 

Sometimes the nursery staff consists of 1-2 people, for as many as 20 children, from birth to 3 years. That is ridiculous! I do know and love Miss Ruth and Miss Lorraine (they are older women), but Miss Ruth can barely get up out of a chair, let alone pick up my hefty babies (twins). At times there are people in the nursery whom I don't know AT ALL, but they only seem to come for nursery duty, never any other weeks (a husband, wife, and teenage son team). I get bad vibes sometimes.

 

These are good enough reasons for us to keep our children with us.

[Plaid Dad]

As I said in the other thread, we have been on both sides of this. My church (Catholic) doesn't have a child care option or a cry room; children are expected to be at Mass with their parents, and that being the case, people expect there will be some noise. It's not a big deal.

 

We have used the child care option at my wife's church when our dd was having a very hard time in the service. But the church does not provide child care for kids over age 5 unless there's an unusual circumstance, like a very adult sermon topic (s*xuality, etc.). The ideal is to have families worship together.

 

So I am not in a position to be judging families in either place for putting older kids in Sunday School or child care because those options don't exist. I can say that I wouldn't be comfortable in a church where age segregation was the norm; that just doesn't jibe with my understanding of the church as the body of Christ, of corporate worship, or of the role of parents in the spiritual formation of their children.

[Mx5]

Not really. I am truly not having that reaction. It does help me trememdously to understand another person's point of view. It helps me to understand why people disagree with homeschooling. It helps me to understand people who feel differently about politics than I do. It helps me to understand why people feel differently about God than I do.

 

Understanding other people has numerous benefits to me. I am not so insecure that I cannot handle the truth.

 

I sincerely hope I haven't implied you're insecure. On the contrary!

 

My point was just that people are people, and do people-ish things, like looking down on each other for whatever reason, and that it isn't hugely profitable to wonder about being judged, 'cuz we all do it. That's the wisdom of the Word, and I'm so glad God knows us so well.

 

I remember a few years ago when someone posted on another board about being horrified that mothers would bring in small snacks for their kids during church. They were ripping on Cheerios! They were saying things like, "No wonder the kids are overweight." and then some went on to rip about kids being allowed to sit quietly in church with books, coloring books, etc. It never ever crossed my mind that anyone would be judging me for bringing a baggie of cereal, or crayons, etc. to church. It upset me for quite a while, and I realized that I, too, have had similar thoughts about others regarding different issues.

[Kelli in TN]

In my opinion, there should always be fingerprint, FBI-databased screening of ALL church workers who are given access to children and youth.

 

Secondly, there should never be a situation in which one adult is alone with one or two children.

 

.

 

We don't get fingerprinted, but everyone in children's ministry does get a full background check, well, except for the fingerprints.

 

Leadership is always, always, always two deep regardless of the number of children. If there is one child in the nursery or class, there is still two leaders.

 

Everything in every classroom/ nursery is being filmed and the there is a live feed to 4 television screens that hang over the doors to our children's area. The film is kept for a period of time in case it is needed to settle a dispute.

 

(We actually had to go back and study a film after a child said that another child made a racial comment. We needed to know if the parents needed to be conronted because at our church a racial comment would be a huge no-no.)

 

When you check your child in you are given a numbered tag. You will need this if you want your child back!:D

 

We do take safety very seriously and I would be appalled if toddlers were roaming!! I understand why that bothered you.

[Laura K (NC)]

(Disclaimer: I'm Catholic, and this may not be relevant to all who read it.)

 

Our church has a LifeTeen mass, which is worship geared toward pre-teens and teens. There's a band and it's more charismatic. I object to it on a few levels. First, our liturgical church has so many built-in levels of symbolism that each part is a "teaching" moment, and parents can teach their kids about how to worship best if their children are right beside them (in our church). The parents can bring certain aspects of the worship to their kids attention if they are right beside them, and the worship is so simple on the surface (which is why teens sometimes get bored) but so rich once you understand it.

 

In our LifeTeen masses the kids sit together. They talk all during mass. They are engaged during the singing, but border on irreverent during the rest because their silliness/posing/flirting/texting/apathy/distraction is exacerbated when they get together with less adult supervision. I don't believe that mass should be a social hour, and I don't believe it should be entertainment or a performance. I think that in our church the separate worship for adults and teens encourages a mindset of expecting to be entertained during worship, and I think that's very dangerous. I also think that the great traditions of our liturgical service, a common cultural literacy, is diluted when there is a steady diet of bubblegum worship. When these kids make the transition to "adult" church, it will be difficult and boring, and not comfortable and familiar, when they begin their adult lives. The early 20s are difficult -- or at least they were difficult for my husband and me -- new family, heavy debt, new responsibilities. If teens are treated as adults, the transition from childhood (where kids are sheltered and indulged) to adulthood will be easier and less of a shock, and religion will be a constant in a world that is constantly changing. If they are Christians they should be working toward the same goals that adults are -- to evangelize, to deepen their personal faith, to build up the family, to fight off temptations. If they are not Christians, I think these kids' programs will just seem like entertainment and will encourage only a superficial faith. If kids are struggling with their faith, the family can/should help far more than separate services that remove the kid from his family.

 

However, in our church there is also a nursery that we did use with our kids until they were about 2 1/2, and when the Gospel was being read during one of the masses children between about 4 and 6 are taken to another room (if they wish) to hear the gospel in easier language, and a sermon that is directed at them. Here then, I never saw anything wrong with accommodating kids who have not yet reached the "age of reason."

[Scarlett]

I am not judging or giving it much thought at all. It only crosses my mind when someone brings it up---the way Kelli did in this thread. And even when I DO give it a thought, it is much more 'huh. I find that odd.' I don't think it makes a person the worst parent on the planet or any of that.

 

I also totally agree and GET that a few hours on Sunday is not the entire religious training you give your kids. Nor is it for me. However, I would think that time spent in a house of worship would be a significant thing, no? I mean, I instruct my child all day long, every day in how to be a good strong Christian, but our time spent in formal worship is not just fluff---it is important. I want him to learn as I learn, and hear what I hear. And be by my side so I can see what he 'gets', what he doesn't get, what affects him, what makes him grateful, etc. Sort of how that is why I hs...

 

I also wasn't saying there is a contradiction between hs'ling and sending your kids to SS. I was just surprised by it....I certainly don't paint all hs'lers with the same brush, but fundementally we have a desire to be the primary teacher of our children. I see many of you equate sending your kids to SS to sending them to co-op. I just don't see it that way. It is my opinion.

 

And for those of you who would never dream of having an opinion about how others raise their kids....are ya for real? :confused: You are much more righteous than me if that is true. I have opinions all of the time. I don't always express them....but I certainly have opinions. I think it might be human nature.

[Sarah CB]

Well, my church doesn't work like that. There's a general meeting with everyone, and then we split into classes, so we have both family time and class time. But anyway, I don't think I'm "sending my kids to someone else for their spiritual instruction." 99% of a child's spiritual instruction ought to be happening in the home during the week.

 

Two hours a week in a Sunday School program isn't actually all that much. The lessons are straight from the scriptures and the church. I have loved all my kids' teachers (and I've frequently been a teacher to other kids). I've always requested that I not be assigned to my own kid's class, because I do want them to have a little variety, and this is a good place for it. Meanwhile, the majority of their spiritual instruction is still happening within the family.

 

I don't want my kids to think that I believe I'm the only person capable of teaching them--that isn't true. Many people in my church are far more capable than I am.

 

Yes! This is how I feel, too. 99% of my children's spiritual instruction does happen at home but I appreciate the fact that what we're teaching at home is being reinforced at church. Our church does have an element of family worship. The kids are in with us for the first half hour and then they leave for Sunday school. I wasn't impressed with our last church (full kids' program, no kids in the sanctuary) as it seemed more about entertainment and crowd control. The church we're in now has the same teachers each week and the classes are small. I'm happy to have the kids hearing the same types of things from church that they hear at home - it just backs up and reinforces what we're already teaching to them.

 

I certainly would not hand over the spiritual education of my children to someone else - they learn it and live it every day with me and it's too important to delegate to someone else. However, I do see a benefit to having them participate in a Sunday school class for an hour each week in addition to spiritual discipleship at home and family worship at church.