high school as high school?

[Kim in SouthGa]

So much talk here and IRL about CLEP and AP and dual enrollment-is it wrong to just do high school as high school? I was looking at the samples questions for the English Lit CLEP, and I could only answer a couple of them. I know my son probably couldn't answer any of them! Am I doing him harm by just letting high school be high school? One of the colleges he is interested in doesn't even accept very many CLEPs. I don't know. I feel a tremendous amount of pressure to push, push, push but he is already up in his room working on school all day, most days from 8 til 6 or 7 at night or longer. And we still always feel behind. He has other things he needs to be working on, like physical activity :D and I can't even find the time for him to fit it in. Ugh. I guess I would like to hear from those of you that have just done high school without all the college level stuff and still had your kids do well with college acceptance/scholarships.

Thanks

[J-rap]

Probably others can better answer this than I can, because we tend to go a more non-traditional route in a lot of ways. However, we have done a mix so far, and it has gone smoothly. Our son studied and took exams for 5 AP classes his senior year. Another daughter did four years of high school in three years. Two others have gone the very traditional 4 years of high school route (with 1 and 0 AP classes). They have all -- so far -- gotten into the college of their choice, gotten good scholarships, and never wished that they did it differently. It sounds like your son is putting in a lot of work already. I have a daughter like that, and though she is a hard and determined worker, it takes her a long time and I know what her limits are. I want school to be challenging yet enjoyable (at least as much as possible!) for her, and not overwhelming.

[Julie in MN]

I am totally in your camp.

 

Not only do I want high school to be high school,

but I want home school to be home school.

If I didn't like the public school choices in learning methods and textbook authors and such, then I don't want to bring all that home.

 

My one anecdotal evidence is my oldest son, who went to a fairly lame public high school, didn't sign up for any of the honors courses because they all required letters of recommendation rather than test scores, and didn't want any of his "college level" work in calculus to count anyways, since he wanted to start college as a Freshman and learn the body of knowledge that the college had to offer. He went on to get the max school scholarships and graduate with honors in exactly 4 years - as a petroleum engineer. He also enjoyed participating in their hockey team (not a big competitive school) and their school newspaper, and the school valued that kind of student participation.

 

I do think that helping your student stand out in some way is important. Great test scores are hard to ignore. Special courses like the UMPTYMP math course my oldest son was in during 8th grade can be recognized by colleges as setting the bar high. Homeschoolers I think were first sought out when they were showing unusual approaches to education, outside of the norm -- I think that's what will turn the heads of the most prestigious colleges.

 

Julie

[laughing lioness]

That's us. No cleps (to date, ds 17 might take a couple with dd 21 this summer for morale support), no AP's, no dual enrollments.

 

Kids are doing a mix of academics, extra curriculars, camps, memory work, paid work, house re-build work. There's just not a lot of time left to do the other.

AND I think that there are ways to, like Julie pointed out, to make your kids stand out, despite not so stellar test scores. For example: Our oldest dd (who had whacked test scores- 99% in English and 35 % in math) had raised almost $20K in high school for missions work and HAD traveled extensively. THAT type of activity causes admin folks to take note.

 

Each of our older 3 kids (the youngers probably will too, their just still younger) have had really distinct interests and we've tried to support and encourage that without getting wrapped around the axle about getting into college (that's not the hard part) and paying for it (that is the hard part).

[Barbara H]

To me the whole point of homeschooling is that you are able to offer your child a custom education appropriate to their individual needs. Look at what your individual kids need and that's what you do. What works for someone else may be totally different and that's okay.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Barbara H

[Murphy101]

To me the whole point of homeschooling is that you are able to offer your child an custom education appropriate to their individual needs. Look at what your individual kids need and that's what you do. What works for someone else may be totally different and that's okay.

 

:iagree:

 

And the pressure each family feels may vary for many reasons. One of the reason I put considerable pressure in my kids is because we flat out cannot afford for them to waste a lot of time and money. A family with more funds might not feel as much stress about helping their kids get a college education or even a trade.

[Julie in MN]

And the pressure each family feels may vary for many reasons. One of the reason I put considerable pressure in my kids is because we flat out cannot afford for them to waste a lot of time and money. A family with more funds might not feel as much stress about helping their kids get a college education or even a trade.

 

I think this is a serious consideration. We have nieces and nephews who have floundered in and out of college, not finishing in anything close to 4 years, costing their families money they couldn't spare.

 

However, the route to not wasting time or money is not necessarily the route that public schools use -- at least it didn't work in the cases of our family members who floundered. Sometimes the route to not wasting time/$$ is having the time in high school to figure out what you are good at and where you want to go. i.e. Not arriving in college clueless about anything except GPAs and tests.

 

Julie

P.S. I realize some state schools like GA seem to be getting very heavy-handed about these things, and one must adapt if one lives under the weight of narrow restrictions.

[Murphy101]

I think this is a serious consideration. We have nieces and nephews who have floundered in and out of college, not finishing in anything close to 4 years, costing their families money they couldn't spare.

 

However, the route to not wasting time or money is not necessarily the route that public schools use -- at least it didn't work in the cases of our family members who floundered. Sometimes the route to not wasting time/$$ is having the time in high school to figure out what you are good at and where you want to go. i.e. Not arriving in college clueless about anything except GPAs and tests.

 

Julie

P.S. I realize some state schools like GA seem to be getting very heavy-handed about these things, and one must adapt if one lives under the weight of narrow restrictions.

 

 

I completely agree. In fact, I rarely look at anything the public schools do because I don't care. I do, however, look at what colleges do.;)

[ereks mom]

To me the whole point of homeschooling is that you are able to offer your child an custom education appropriate to their individual needs. Look at what your individual kids need and that's what you do. What works for someone else may be totally different and that's okay.

 

:iagree:

We don't do AP courses, but pursue high school as high school, but some of our coursework is pretty rigorous. When ER finished his high school career, he opted to take a few CLEP tests just to see how it went. As it turned out, he scored quite high and tested out of 2 math courses and 2 English courses. He also scored quite high in his college's music theory placement test, and was placed into the 2nd or 3rd course rather than the first. As a result, after four years of study, he will be graduating in May with a music degree that normally takes at least five years to complete.

[Barbara H]

 

However, the route to not wasting time or money is not necessarily the route that public schools use -- at least it didn't work in the cases of our family members who floundered. Sometimes the route to not wasting time/$$ is having the time in high school to figure out what you are good at and where you want to go. i.e. Not arriving in college clueless about anything except GPAs and tests.

.

 

Good points.

 

Doing more and faster if it isn't a fit for the individual child isn't going to be better. One thing we see in the public schools right now is more and more kids taking AP classes and then failing the tests. We also have a situation where far too many students are starting college in need of remediation in core subjects like math, reading, or writing. Having finished more in high school isn't necessarily better if the student isn't getting a strong foundation.

 

I've seen parents wonder - should I take one and a half years for each geometry and algebra 2 or should I push hard to get them through so we can get precalculus on the transcript? I'd much rather the student really get the solid foundation particularly in core subjects like math. Some kids just need more time. Of course a student who is a fast learner in math they should be on a different schedule. It is all about doing what makes sense for that individual student and family. I think we could all do ourselves a favor by having confidence in the fact that we know our kids best. If someone else is making a very different choice for their family it may be they are dealing with a different set of variables.

[Melissa in CA]

I've always had high school for high school. My older two boys are doing well in college, but they both chose to go the community college/trade school route with no desire to jump right into a 4 yr university. One, the middle child (21 yo), has already gone on to get some hard to qualify for high ranking state certificates and has been handed a business to run. He's amazingly smart, but did an average-above average high school curriculum. Mostly BJU satellite school stuff. Oldest is still trying to find his niche in the workforce, but that has zero to do with his intelligence, and more to do with his personality. He got his LVN license with the plan of going to RN, but has decided he hates health care work. Hates. It. He is now back in college trying a different trade while also working full time... we'll see how that pans out for him. :lol: Neither boy have any school debt.

 

Youngest ds stated last year that he wants to go to The Masters College here in California and wants to live on campus. I got all freaked out for a few months trying to figure out how to get him his desire. What curriculum would get him there, get him that scholarship he would NEED for us to be able to afford such a place. And then reality set in and I decided to continue on as is. He's a smart boy, a GREAT kid, but he's an average teenager. I already push him daily to get his work completed, and it's regular high school level work that often takes him until 9:00 pm at night to complete. He couldn't handle college level work. He's 14. 'Nuff said.

 

After graduating two very average high schooled boys, and seeing how they are progressing in life, I'm not stressing college. Just not. I see that it's in Gods hands anyhow. If youngest ds makes it to Masters College, it will be because HE wants it and works for it. My stressing out about supposed 'top notch' curriculum will not help him achieve that goal. He is who he is, he'll be who he's meant to be. I will be supportive and help him achieve HIS goals (HIS, not mine!), but not to the point of making us all crazy. ;)

 

It is very hard to not compare kids on this forum though. When you see the wazoo curriculum that some kids are using, it can make you feel like you're not doing enough. That you're not pushing enough. That your kid is not smart enough. Yadda, yadda, yadda. I just don't allow myself to go there anymore. Every time I do I end up purchasing some stupid curriculum that everyone thinks is over-the-top fantastic, and then find it's not fantastic at all and that what we were using was way better.

 

So, all that to say, I proudly offer my child a good solid HIGH SCHOOL curriculum. We'll gladly save college work for college thankyouverymuch. :lol:

[Melissa in CA]

I've seen parents wonder - should I take one and a half years for each geometry and algebra 2 or should I push hard to get them through so we can get precalculus on the transcript? I'd much rather the student really get the solid foundation particularly in core subjects like math. Some kids just need more time. Of course a student who is a fast learner in math they should be on a different schedule. It is all about doing what makes sense for that individual student and family. I think we could all do ourselves a favor by having confidence in the fact that we know our kids best. If someone else is making a very different choice for their family it may be they are dealing with a different set of variables.

 

:iagree:

[Lori D.]

Wow, Kim, I have really wrestled with these questions, too, although about 3 years ago, I think I was able to come to decisions about what was best for our family -- how the Lord made each of our DSs unique, and what His plans for them are -- so I have been okay with letting go of many of these things and not striving for them, but also being very willing to include them, should the opportunity/need arise.

 

And... I am probably not the best person to answer your question as neither DS is headed immediately to a 4-year college, BUT... here is where I am in the midst of these similar thoughts, questions, concerns...

 

 

I have 2 very average DSs, neither has ever been "into" school; additionally, younger DS has some learning issues which has made using rigorous/challenging material tricky. We ended up NOT doing AP, CLEP, or honors of any kind. Just regular work. The only thing we did outside of regular high school was each DS has/will have done 2 semesters foreign language as dual enrollment at the local community college.

 

Older DS got enough on SAT test to be just into the small scholarship range. Younger DS tested very average -- enough for college entrance but not scholarships. But -- neither DS has plans to attend 4-year college right away, as neither has clear direction of what they would like to do as a career (or series of careers).

 

Both received plenty of college promotional material after taking the SAT and ACT tests, showing that their scores were perfectly acceptable for admission to many colleges. (No Ivy League or exclusive private institutions -- but, no interest on our end in them, either! ;) )

 

 

Do I wish I had pushed harder?

At times, occasionally, about certain things (such as writing).

 

*Could* I have pushed harder?

No, I don't think so. I have poured as much as I can into homeschooling. Yes, I've made a fair number of mistakes, but I really have no regrets. I did what I could to the best of my ability at the time, also taking into consideration life circumstances and some personal issues that have taken a *lot* of personal energy and time. I feel I managed to keep a good balance between all the needs.

 

Could/should DSs have pushed harder?

Probably. But they have to live with the results, not me. And some people (both our DSs) are "late bloomers". So, I don't think we are far enough out from the homeschool experiment for me to honestly say this. And ultimately, the Lord is the judge of the heart, not me, so I don't know as though I should be even thinking along the lines of could/should they have pushed harder...

 

 

So, we didn't push harder, how do I feel about that?

Right now, I am so GLAD we ended up NOT pushing rigorous/honors/AP high school:

1. It would have made our relationship unpleasant. :eek:

2. It probably would NOT have added enough to the test scores and transcript to make a difference for scholarships or entrance to high-end/exclusive colleges -- esp. since there was no specific interest/drive to GO to a specialty school or program

3. Instead, we poured that extra time into extracurriculars to give them a broad range of interests, meet people/form friendships, opportunities to develop leadership and communication skills (useful and desirable for any job, college class, or social setting!)

 

 

I think we have accomplished the goals that were key to us when we set out to homeschool almost 12 years ago: both DSs can READ; they can THINK critically; they have confidence that they can self-learn what they need to know as the occasion arises. Both DSs seem to be very normal, well-adjusted teens. They both know the Lord. They really seem to have their heads on straight, are beginning to step out and volunteer and take leadership in areas of their interests, and are learning how to be responsible young adults. If and when the time is right, I think they will be able to enter into the 4-year college experience as needed, and succeed.

 

As a senior taking Spanish for dual enrollment last year, older DS did so well, he was asked to be a notetaker for pay for a sight-impaired fellow student. And this year as a full-time CC student, he is getting all As and an occasional B in his coursework, and is taking an Honors Writing course (*his* choice!). Younger DS, in spite of learning issues, got at A in his American Sign Language course at the CC last semester, and is stepping up to the plate this semester with a harder teacher, plus an additional CC course.

 

 

In the end, then, while I DO think AP, CLEP, honors, rigorous, etc. are very worthy goals, we have still accomplished the *most important* goals *to us* without them. They would have been nice "icing on the cake", but it looks like we will also be okay without them.

 

 

BEST of luck as you work your way through what path your own family should take! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Lori D.

[mama25angels]

Wow, Kim, I have really wrestled with these questions, too, although about 3 years ago, I think I was able to come to decisions about what was best for our family -- how the Lord made each of our DSs unique, and what His plans for them are -- so I have been okay with letting go of many of these things and not striving for them, but also being very willing to include them, should the opportunity/need arise.

 

And... I am probably not the best person to answer your question as neither DS is headed immediately to a 4-year college, BUT... here is where I am in the midst of these similar thoughts, questions, concerns...

 

 

I have 2 very average DSs, neither has ever been "into" school; additionally, younger DS has some learning issues which has made using rigorous/challenging material tricky. We ended up NOT doing AP, CLEP, or honors of any kind. Just regular work. The only thing we did outside of regular high school was each DS has/will have done 2 semesters foreign language as dual enrollment at the local community college.

 

Older DS got enough on SAT test to be just into the small scholarship range. Younger DS tested very average -- enough for college entrance but not scholarships. But -- neither DS has plans to attend 4-year college right away, as neither has clear direction of what they would like to do as a career (or series of careers).

 

Both received plenty of college promotional material after taking the SAT and ACT tests, showing that their scores were perfectly acceptable for admission to many colleges. (No Ivy League or exclusive private institutions -- but, no interest on our end in them, either! ;) )

 

 

Do I wish I had pushed harder?

At times, occasional, about certain things (such as writing).

 

Could I have pushed harder?

No, I don't think so. I have poured as much as I can into homeschooling. Yes, I've made a fair number of mistakes, but I really have no regrets. I did what I could to the best of my ability

 

Could/should DSs have pushed harder?

Probably. But they have to live with the results, not me. And some people (both our DSs) are "late bloomers". So, I don't think we are far enough out from the homeschool experiment for me to honestly say this. And ultimately, the Lord is the judge of the heart, not me, so I don't know as though I should be even thinking along the lines of could/should they have pushed harder...

 

 

So, we didn't push harder, how do I feel about that?

Right now, I am so GLAD we ended up NOT pushing rigorous/honors/AP high school:

1. It would have made our relationship unpleasant. :eek:

2. It probably would NOT have added enough to the test scores and transcript to make a difference for scholarships or entrance to college -- esp. since there was no specific interest/drive to GO to a specialty school or program

3. Instead, we poured that extra time into extracurriculars to give them a broad range of interests, meet people/form friendships, opportunities to develop leadership and communication skills (useful and desirable for any job, college class, or social setting!)

 

 

I think we have accomplished the goals that were key to us when we set out to homeschool almost 12 years ago: both DSs can READ; they can THINK critically; they have confidence that they can self-learn what they need to know as the occasion arises. Both DSs seem to be very normal, well-adjusted teens. They both know the Lord. They really seem to have their heads on straight, are beginning to step out and volunteer and take leadership in areas of their interests, and are learning how to be responsible young adults. If and when the time is right, I think they will be able to enter into the 4-year college experience as needed, and succeed.

 

As a senior taking Spanish for dual enrollment last year, older DS did so well, he was asked to be a notetaker for pay for a sight-impaired fellow student. And this year as a full-time CC student, he is getting all As and an occasional B in his coursework, and is taking an Honors Writing course (*his* choice!). Younger DS, in spite of learning issues, got at A in his American Sign Language course at the CC last semester, and is stepping up to the plate this semester with a harder teacher, plus an additional CC course.

 

 

In the end, then, while I DO think AP, CLEP, honors, rigorous, etc. are very worthy goals, we have still accomplished the *most important* goals *to us* without them. They would have been nice "icing on the cake", but it looks like we will also be okay without them.

 

 

BEST of luck as you work your way through what path your own family should take! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

I just love every.single thing you post!

[Susan C.]

Me me!!! Dc are good students, but the harder stuff just wasn't a good fit. It wasn't about working hard, it was about readiness. Ds took adolescent psych. in college (he is about to graduate college, homeschooled k-12) and what he learned was fascinating. Most teens just can't do the higher level thinking, their brain is still developing until early 20s. I do/did prod them here and there and enjoyed the discussions when I did. But for homeschool, its high school level tailored to them all the way. No CLEP, AP or dual enrollment. We did do honors level in courses where they could handle it.

[Brindee]

I just love every.single thing you post!

Me too! :001_smile:

 

I also appreciate the ones that said to do what's best for each child. That is so important, and a main reason we homeschool!

 

We didn't do any honors or AP or CLEP with our boys. This year DD is taking 3 classes at a co-op with amazingly wonderful teachers. The classes are considered AP level, but she doesn't want to take the tests, she's decided, she is just thankful for the experience and knowledge the teachers are sharing. She is learning HUGE amounts that will do her well for college!

 

DS20 went to a Christian boarding school his Junior and Senior years, and did very well academically. He'd done BJU DVD's for 10th grade, plus classes on our own.

 

DS18 is doing dual enrollment this year, his senior year because he chose to. He is doing very well, except he just doesn't pick up on languages, so is struggling with Spanish.

 

DD recently decided she wants to go into nursing, so suddenly has more drive to work through Algebra and get to Geometry. She's a smart girl but has struggled with Algebra. She did pre-Algebra when she was 11, and hasn't really advanced much since then, no matter what we have tried :tongue_smilie:. Now that she's a bit older, and she has a goal, I'm hoping it helps her get past this and be able to move forward!

 

Our local CC has a pre-Nursing AA that she wants to try, so she's wanting to do dual enrollment next year as a Junior.

 

 

I haven't pushed my kids into any of those things, but have encouraged them to do well in their schoolwork. Their personalities, interests and abilities vary widely, and so has their curriculum.

 

They all have a relationship with the Lord, and are doing well where they are at. This statement sums our experience up also:

 

In the end, then, while I DO think AP, CLEP, honors, rigorous, etc. are very worthy goals, we have still accomplished the *most important* goals *to us* without them. They would have been nice "icing on the cake", but it looks like we will also be okay without them.

[cathmom]

My oldest did normal high school stuff and went to college on a full scholarship.

[tex-mex]

To me the whole point of homeschooling is that you are able to offer your child an custom education appropriate to their individual needs. Look at what your individual kids need and that's what you do. What works for someone else may be totally different and that's okay.

:iagree:

I think it is easy to compare our children with others (or posts on this board). But like mentioned by someone else on another thread, do not let the "Mommy War" shot get to you. There is no rule that we as homeschoolers have to mimic other hsers with curriculum, AP, CLEP, dual enrollment, or co-ops. Every child learns differently. That is why we homeschool.

[memphispeg]

We are only doing the last 2 years of high school. But, that is exactly what we are doing - "high school". We talked about what we thought would be the best to know after 13 years of schooling and built our curriculum along those lines. Dd hates all the AP test stuff (she has never tested really well) and just wanted to learn and do projects and papers. We are having a great time this way. I have used AP test questions and review book problem sets and essay prompts in some of our subjects but, we are not teaching to the test. Dd will go to college next year very well prepared for whatever comes next.

[lllll]

..

Edited December 23, 2012 by ksva

[Robin in DFW]

Every few months I start stressing over our homeschooling...quality, quantity, method, rigor...etc...

 

This thread was just the thing I needed to read this evening. (I am also sick and feeling a little sorry for myself right now...:tongue_smilie:)

 

I will put in my thoughts, as unnecessary as they are after all the great responses.

 

I have two older kids. One dd23, will graduate from college in May. She had a lot of bumps and starts to her college years. She started at a huge university, hated it, switched to the community college (loved it), switched majors...twice...finished her two years there and went to a different large university and has had great success. She went to public school, took AP classes, tested out of some college classes and struggled with placement because she didn't learn and retain in those "harder" classes.

 

Next dd19 (homeschooled 7th through graduation), went off to the same huge university that my oldest did...had athletic scholarships, academics scholarships galore...so much that she had to give some back due to a cap on scholarships at state institutions or so she was told. Anyway, she hated the school...same as big sis...she had a terrible roommate situation...same as big sis...and went in with such high expectations only to be let down...the athletic program was nothing like she thought it would be...she had visions of a close-knit group, liking each other and working for the same end...nope. Her classes were not the learning experiences she was expecting either. Of course, I guess I should have NOT let her have those high expectations...that was naive on my part as a parent.

She is now attending the same CC as big sis...really likes it and is doing well. I worked her hard to get her through certain levels of math and science, read certain books, etc. all to make sure she could get into her school of choice...in the end it didn't matter...she could have slowed down and not worked through Pre-Calculus at a break-neck pace, she could have enjoyed other things more.

 

My point, finally, is this: take it at your student's pace. If that means getting through every math on the planet..yippee...if it means getting through Algebra 2 and having a deep understanding in order to succeed in upper maths at uni or cc...yippee...

 

I had just asked about TT new edition of Algebra 1 when I saw this thread. I was considering switching ds14 to TT because he's taking so long to get through Lial's Intro Alg...this was most timely for me...he's doing well with it, although slow, but he's doing well.

 

BTW...ds will NOT be heading off to a big uni...he has already said it's straight to CC for him...his sisters have convinced him of that and we are ecstatic!

 

It's all good!

Robin

[Kim in SouthGa]

Aside from all that, though, may I ask what your ds is working on that's keeping him in his room all day and into the night? Is he actually doing school all that time, because it seems awfully long. But maybe he just enjoys his school??

 

:lol: I almost fell out of my chair at that one! I would not characterize him as enjoying his school :D He is taking a heavy load-he'll have 8 credits this year. I did not originally plan it that way, but some opportunities came up that we didn't want to miss. He takes several outside classes, so Mondays are big work days (he meets with me for writing and literature and does all subjects on Mondays). We usually finish up around 5:30. Tuesdays, he has several outside classes that are oddly timed, so he is out of the house from 8:15 until about 5:45 with a 2 hour break, which is usually used to decompress. So when he gets home he works for about an hour, then has an online class at 8:30. On Wed. he has chem lab from 2-5, so again he has to work some when he gets home. On Thurs, he usually tries to double up on some stuff because he has two classes on Friday and doesn't want to do any work when he gets home from them. Crazy, hectic schedule that I do not want to repeat, but really it is just Chemistry, Spanish, Theater, and a couple of extra curricular activities (Key Club and Honor Society).

ETA: I did ask him today if he was working hard or being distracted by his laptop, phone, etc. He assured me he was working. I may have to start checking on him more often to make sure, but I really think his little brother would rat him out if he was goofing off!

Edited February 17, 2012 by Kim in SouthGa

[Kim in SouthGa]

Thank you all for the encouragement. I am always so glad to hear from those that have BTDT. I am breathing a little easier tonight! :)

[jamajo]

 

My point, finally, is this: take it at your student's pace. If that means getting through every math on the planet..yippee...if it means getting through Algebra 2 and having a deep understanding in order to succeed in upper maths at uni or cc...yippee...

 

I had just asked about TT new edition of Algebra 1 when I saw this thread. I was considering switching ds14 to TT because he's taking so long to get through Lial's Intro Alg...this was most timely for me...he's doing well with it, although slow, but he's doing well.

 

BTW...ds will NOT be heading off to a big uni...he has already said it's straight to CC for him...his sisters have convinced him of that and we are ecstatic!

 

It's all good!

Robin

 

 

Yea...my DD was having trouble with Lials. She started working through Keys to Algebra and is breezing through that. I guess it's just a different approach. Even though I'm a little concerned that it may not be 1 credit worthy for Algebra, I just figured I'll cross that bridge when I get to it b/c I have to do what works for her. Lial's was really discouraging her and frustrating the both us. So I'm right there with you as far as taking it at your kids pace. My DD is only in 9th grade but I have high hopes and plans for her (dual enrollment, co-op, academic summer camps, etc.) I think I overwhelm her when I talk about these things. Although I look into these "extras" I will scale back if I have to to keep her at a healthy, happy balance. I just pray it all works out in the end....I know it will.

[regentrude]

He is taking a heavy load-he'll have 8 credits this year. I did not originally plan it that way, but some opportunities came up that we didn't want to miss. He takes several outside classes, so Mondays are big work days (he meets with me for writing and literature and does all subjects on Mondays). We usually finish up around 5:30. Tuesdays, he has several outside classes that are oddly timed, so he is out of the house from 8:15 until about 5:45 with a 2 hour break, which is usually used to decompress. So when he gets home he works for about an hour, then has an online class at 8:30. On Wed. he has chem lab from 2-5, so again he has to work some when he gets home. On Thurs, he usually tries to double up on some stuff because he has two classes on Friday and doesn't want to do any work when he gets home from them. Crazy, hectic schedule that I do not want to repeat, but really it is just Chemistry, Spanish, Theater, and a couple of extra curricular activities (Key Club and Honor Society).

 

I don't get it. I can understand wanting high school to be high school to decrease stress and work load and I thought that would be the whole point. However, after hearing about your crazy son's schedule, I find that even with dual enrollment and some college level work my DD spends much less time on school and has a much more relaxed schedule with free time to pursue hobbies and sports... :confused: there is no way I would want my kid to spend all day long on school

Edited February 17, 2012 by regentrude

[Kim in SouthGa]

I don't get it. I can understand wanting high school to be high school to decrease stress and work load and I thought that would be the whole point. However, after hearing about your crazy son's schedule, I find that even with dual enrollment and some college level work my DD spends much less time on school and has a much more relaxed schedule with free time to pursue hobbies and sports... :confused: there is no way I would want my kid to spend all day long on school

 

That is precisely the point. I'm not sure what you don't get? If he is having this much trouble getting high school level work (challenging, but still high school) done, how could he handle AP/dual enrollment classes and still have time for anything else? We did not start the year off with this schedule in mind, but, as I said, opportunities arose that we wanted to take advantage of (and he assured me he would put in the necessary work with no complaining), so he is having to "pay the price" now. I could be wrong, but I assume the time spent on 8 credits of typical high school work is somewhat close to, or maybe even less, than what he would spend on a schedule with fewer classes but that included a couple of APs or DE classes. I also do not want my son to spend all day long on school, which is why I am debating the wisdom of AP/DE classes for him.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Kim in SouthGa

[Susan C.]

It looks like your ds is doing quite well. We have never managed to get 8 classes in one year, and he is already doing chemistry! The guy will think he is on a break in college with only 5 classes! It also sounds like he is ok with it, so it seems all is well. Also, my ds is in college, and some semesters, his schedule gets crazy. So your ds is prepared well for that.

 

As far as working all day, my dd has done that her entire school career. We found out she needed vision therapy last summer, just before we started her senior year. So, because of her slow reading, she had to work that long. She didn't want her grades to suffer, so she has always worked hard. There is nothing wrong with that as long as they want to do it.

[CyndiLJ]

I have spent the past couple of months being quite introspective about this exact subject. I think lurking here on the Hive Mind is not always the most helpful for those of us who are not pushing our kids to do advanced work in high school. I found myself questioning the very things that I initially thought were the most important about homeschooling: A) Allowing our kids to have a real childhood, not one shortened by premature concerns about college B) Allowing our kids to pursue interests and passions C) To STOP the nonsense of cramming and studying garbage that is not all that helpful in the real world D) To have control over curriculum in terms of finding ways of learning that were engaging, presented in a clearer way, and invited kids to think more about the big picture rather than memorizing facts that would be immediately forgotten.

 

Reading many of the various threads here had me feeling downright critical and off message for ourselves! I thought everyone was pushing for Latin, AP classes, and early graduation! THANK YOU all for keeping it real for me here, for helping me feel a tiny sense of community.

 

I have been reading a lot about CLEP testing, and am seriously looking in that direction mainly due to cost savings and the fact that I think it is probably as good a way to learn as any, and saves kids from being forced to sit and endure lectures and take oodles of hours to do something that realistically can be accomplished on their own with independent study. I started getting caught up in what I have read here and other places about kids CLEPing for high school courses, dual enrollment, etc.

 

Then about a week ago I stopped and realized what I was doing. I decided that the route we will go will include standard high school with college prep skills/classes being taught but NOT college classes per se. We will take a CLEP test after classes when it makes sense, maybe after Algebra 2, or American History, and we might study a little for those to fill in any gaps we might determine are there after we have taken a full high school course.

 

But I finally realized that I am NOT going to do the same thing I complain about schools doing, and teach to a test. What's the difference if I teach to an SAT, a state test or a CLEP? I am adamantly opposed to that sort of learning and it was a huge part of our deciding to homeschool, so why do I find myself drifting back that way with the thought of CLEP tests? We want more broad learning, more time to focus on extra interests of the kids, etc. I don't need to narrow our focus and squeeze out the time for learner directed exploration.

 

So, we backpedal once in awhile. At least we eventually catch back up!! So glad for this reminder thread!

[Jane in NC]

To me the whole point of homeschooling is that you are able to offer your child a custom education appropriate to their individual needs. Look at what your individual kids need and that's what you do. What works for someone else may be totally different and that's okay.

 

Precisely.

 

:iagree:

 

And the pressure each family feels may vary for many reasons. One of the reason I put considerable pressure in my kids is because we flat out cannot afford for them to waste a lot of time and money. A family with more funds might not feel as much stress about helping their kids get a college education or even a trade.

 

Which, to be honest, is why some parents do stress the CLEP/AP/Dual Enrollment route. The cost of CLEP/AP exams is certainly less than the cost of college tuition. Dual enrollment at CCs is free to high schoolers in some states.

 

 

:lol: I almost fell out of my chair at that one! I would not characterize him as enjoying his school :D He is taking a heavy load-he'll have 8 credits this year. I did not originally plan it that way, but some opportunities came up that we didn't want to miss. He takes several outside classes, so Mondays are big work days (he meets with me for writing and literature and does all subjects on Mondays). We usually finish up around 5:30. Tuesdays, he has several outside classes that are oddly timed, so he is out of the house from 8:15 until about 5:45 with a 2 hour break, which is usually used to decompress. So when he gets home he works for about an hour, then has an online class at 8:30. On Wed. he has chem lab from 2-5, so again he has to work some when he gets home. On Thurs, he usually tries to double up on some stuff because he has two classes on Friday and doesn't want to do any work when he gets home from them. Crazy, hectic schedule that I do not want to repeat, but really it is just Chemistry, Spanish, Theater, and a couple of extra curricular activities (Key Club and Honor Society).

ETA: I did ask him today if he was working hard or being distracted by his laptop, phone, etc. He assured me he was working. I may have to start checking on him more often to make sure, but I really think his little brother would rat him out if he was goofing off!

 

This goes back to Barbara H's point. As homeschoolers, we not only work with our student's individual needs, we can also work with our community resources.

 

One thing I must say though is that many of us do not have the kind of co-op or outside class experiences that your son has. So, for example, I wanted my son to have a chemistry class with a better lab than I could provide at home. The only opportunity for this was the community college. Some may accuse me of pushing my child but let me be honest. Our CC is essentially a stepping stone between high school and four year college or university. The classes, while equivalent on paper, are not equivalent. That said, the lab work at the CC was good to very good. My son later took an Intro to Microbiology course there which really gave him a solid background in microscopy and lab practice. Am I announcing to the world that every kid should study microbiology? No. This was an opportunity that worked well for my child--as your son has his opportunities.

 

That is precisely the point. I'm not sure what you don't get? If he is having this much trouble getting high school level work (challenging, but still high school) done, how could he handle AP/dual enrollment classes and still have time for anything else? We did not start the year off with this schedule in mind, but, as I said, opportunities arose that we wanted to take advantage of (and he assured me he would put in the necessary work with no complaining), so he is having to "pay the price" now. I could be wrong, but I assume the time spent on 8 credits of typical high school work is somewhat close to, or maybe even less, than what he would spend on a schedule with fewer classes but that included a couple of APs or DE classes. I also do not want my son to spend all day long on school, which is why I am debating the wisdom of AP/DE classes for him.

 

There are many anecdotal reports of students being admitted to the colleges of their choice with scholarships despite the lack of AP, etc. Frankly this was not in my comfort zone. I knew my son was not going the Ivy League route, but he was applying to certain private colleges where merit aid would be essential. I saw AP and dual enrollment as hedging a bet. (CLEP was out of the equation since most of the schools to which my son applied do not accept CLEP credit.) What was most important on my son's applications was probably his volunteer work with an archaeological field school. He is an archaeology major in college. By getting his hands dirty, he had first hand knowledge of the field, a good essay for his college apps, and an important letter of recommendation. This to me is the beauty of homeschooling. Flexibility to pursue passions.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Jane in NC

[Kim in SouthGa]

Jane, you are right, we are very blessed to have several options for outside classes here. I'm not sure what will be offered next year, though. Also, my son will definitely need a scholarship to go to college. We have no savings and I don't think we will qualify for any financial aid. So that is my dilemma. He does have volunteer work and extra curricular activities, like Key Club, Omicron Delta Honor Society, and Theater. He spends a lot of time on weekends volunteering through Key Club, and will volunteer at a couple of camps this summer, as he did last summer. He is signed up for the Congressional Award program but honestly we are not getting very far with it right now.

I think for next year (11th) the best route for him will be challenging high school level work with a focus on getting those writing, reading, and math skills down for the SAT. If we could get the writing issues worked out, he would probably be able to better handle a DE course or two. He just gets paralyzed by essay/research assignments. When he actually gets past the "I've got to write a paper !!!!! :ack2:" mental drama, it doesn't take him that long. He has an issue with letting other things slide when he has a difficult assignment, though. For example, he had to write a research paper (3-5 pages) for his Law & Justice class this week. He had to turn in a rough outline, a final outline with rough Works Cited page, and a final copy. He started Monday and just has to review edits with me and type it today. But he told me last night that he hasn't done history, literature, or vocabulary all week. :confused: I think he gets to a point where he just shuts off. So my fear is that if I put him in an AP history class, math won't get done (or similar scenario). Does that make sense?

I want him to be prepared for college. I want him to get scholarships. I really just don't know how much to push him-how much is lazy teenage boy stuff and how much is really "I can't handle it"? Where is the instructor's manual for that? :D

[Mommyfaithe]

To me the whole point of homeschooling is that you are able to offer your child a custom education appropriate to their individual needs. Look at what your individual kids need and that's what you do. What works for someone else may be totally different and that's okay.

 

:iagree:

It is easy to fall into the "gotta do this" trap. It is harder to look at each child, and guide them to their best.

 

Some kids are easier than others......lol. And, it is natural to second guess every decision:tongue_smilie:

Faithe...whose kids have all done High School for high school, even though I really would have liked them to CLEP and AP and do some CC.....but so far, that has NOT been a good choice for THEM.

 

Faithe

[Nscribe]

The same struggle for balance haunts the public and private college bound teens/families we encounter. Dual enrollments and AP's increasingly are the baseline expectations.

 

If things change over the next four years as much as they have over the past three ... shudder.

[Nan in Mass]

I think it depends on your goals. Part of my homeschooling goal is for my children to be able to go to college when they are done with high school. In order to do that, my particular children need some school experience first. There is no way that dumping them straight into a full college schedule without any previous classroom experience would work. For us, the easiest way to do that is to have them take some classes at the community college. We pick the classes carefully. In our case, some of the college-level classes are at a lower level than the AP classes at our local public high school. Community college classes assume that the incoming students come with a wide variety of experiences, unlike our public school. This makes it easier for my own students to take something like composition (which in our cc turns out to be more of an English class and less like a straight composition class) at our community college than at our high school. LOL My children's homeschooling experience makes them very similar to the students whose basic schooling was in other countries. The CC composition class is set up to deal with that. Our high school most certainly is not. They expect their students to be at least at the level of the placement tests. That is fairly low, about 9th or 10th grade level, compared to our public school. The same with math. The math my son is the same math as my son would have taken in his grade in public school. Now some classes, like the chem class, seem to be miles better than my high school chem, but I still wouldn't necessarily assume that it is at the AP level. I suspect it is, since I know it is at a higher level than my public schooled oldest's prep-level (not honours, not AP) chem, but I don't know. It might just be honours level. If I wanted to be sure of an advanced level of easily-test-able information, I would send my children to the high school AP classes (something we can do here) or sign them up for an online AP class. This would not give them the gentle introduction to the classroom that signing them up for a cc drawing class did, however. And it wouldn't give them experience dealing with a college and its paperwork while I am still around to lead them through it the first time or two (another thing I don't really want to dump my children into). The drawing class was the same as the drawing class I had in my state university, as far as I can tell.

 

All that is just to say that when you see people talking about cc classes, it doesn't always mean that it is not high school-level and that they are doing those classes because they want their children to have an advance experience. It might be, as in our case, that they have doubts about their children's ability to manage unless they have some help at first.

 

Hopefully that is a bit comforting. : )

Nan

[regentrude]

All that is just to say that when you see people talking about cc classes, it doesn't always mean that it is not high school-level and that they are doing those classes because they want their children to have an advance experience. It might be, as in our case, that they have doubts about their children's ability to manage unless they have some help at first.

 

Or they do it because they are not qualified to teach a particular subject and this is the only way their kid gets to learn it. That's why we do French at the university. After several years of working on it at home, with videos and CDs and workbooks and books and a private tutor, we have not been making adequate progress, and I have come to the conclusion that the only way she is going to actually learn French is to take a class from a teacher who is proficient.

Which means: no alternative to enrolling her at the university.

 

I don't care about the credit. I don't even know if it will transfer to where she wants to go. All I do care about is that she learns French.

[memphispeg]

 

I don't care about the credit. I don't even know if it will transfer to where she wants to go. All I do care about is that she learns French.

 

And in the end...isn't this what education is all about, finding a way for a child to learn what they need to.

[Teresa Hope]

In my church, in my co-op, even among my friends who private or public school their children, there is this frenzy about preparing our children for college. I don't even recognize their process. In the late 80s, I took the ACT test, don't even remember my score, got into public university without fanfare, was in extra-curr. stuff but never for the intention of standing out amongst applicants. I understand that college has become some kind of holy grail, requiring various quests and so forth. I also notice that what you get in college these days is a mixed bag, quality-wise. I, too, can get frantic about whether my sons will be able to get an education and a job that lets them support their families.

 

I realize we don't all share a faith on this forum. But in my situation, I have to ask myself daily: Who do I serve? What does he ask of me? Has education become an idol? What of this belongs to the world and its agenda, what belongs to the next world? I have to do this daily, because my heart wanders. I have to review this question every time I make an educational decision or suggest a choice to my sons. They need to see me as driven by the right questions. "A person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people," (Romans 2) "Pay careful attention to your own work, for then you will get the satisfaction of a job well done, and you won't need to compare yourself to anyone else. For we are each responsible for our conduct." (Galatians 6)

 

Not trying to preach. Just sharing what keeps me tethered, or else I'd go crazy trying to do everything perfect.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Nan in Mass]

There is no way that I can teach chemistry anywhere close to adequately. Anywhere. I did ok getting them started in physics in middle school and then my youngest continued to explore that to the point where I am fairly sure he will survive cc physics next year, but not chemistry. There is the problem of enthusiasm, too. His enthusiastic cc prof has inspired my youngest to explore chemistry the same way he explores physics. I can guarantee that would not have happened if *I* had been teaching him. And if he had taken it at the high school (another place where I know the teacher is good) we would have had to commute 5 days a week, 180 days a year rather than 3 days a week for the shorter semesters, something much more managable. We opted to go for the intro chem and not the general chem, though, not wanting to push more than we had to. The prof announced at the beginning of class that this was basically high school chemistry. His math prof made the same announcement.

 

Regentrude, I totally understand about the French. I am about to outsource that, too. We'll continue to work on it at home, but the grammar situation is getting ridiculous.

 

Nan

Edited February 17, 2012 by Nan in Mass

[8filltheheart]

there is this frenzy about preparing our children for college. I don't even recognize their process. In the late 80s, I took the ACT test, don't even remember my score, got into public university without fanfare, was in extra-curr. stuff but never for the intention of standing out amongst applicants.

 

Our personal experience is that it is quite simple to be accepted at good schools w/a decent ACT/SAT score and a completely avg transcript. My oldest ds and my oldest dd both managed to be accepted w/zero problems and for the most part that is what their applications looked like (ds's transcript was much stronger in math/science than dd, but nothing "fantabulous." ;))

 

But, what I think all parents and all posters/readers should always keep in the back of their mind is that no 2 kids are alike. What looks like frenzied over-achievement to an outsider might actually be a natural balanced place for a particular student: I have one of them as well.

 

There is no single path. All students have to all find their own way to adulthood. (at least that is our parental philosophy......we do not find it for our kids. ;) ) Those paths are very different though and they are definitely reflected in what you see posted. The paths to a CC vs. to a typical 4 yr uni vs. to a top competitive school are not going to be the same. (And I have kids that have all chosen different paths.) They are what they are. What you see people post is the scenery along the paths that their children have chosen.

[Mom2boys]

I think for next year (11th) the best route for him will be challenging high school level work with a focus on getting those writing, reading, and math skills down for the SAT. If we could get the writing issues worked out, he would probably be able to better handle a DE course or two. He just gets paralyzed by essay/research assignments. When he actually gets past the "I've got to write a paper !!!!! :ack2:" mental drama, it doesn't take him that long. He has an issue with letting other things slide when he has a difficult assignment, though. For example, he had to write a research paper (3-5 pages) for his Law & Justice class this week. He had to turn in a rough outline, a final outline with rough Works Cited page, and a final copy. He started Monday and just has to review edits with me and type it today. But he told me last night that he hasn't done history, literature, or vocabulary all week. :confused: I think he gets to a point where he just shuts off. So my fear is that if I put him in an AP history class, math won't get done (or similar scenario). Does that make sense?

I want him to be prepared for college. I want him to get scholarships. I really just don't know how much to push him-how much is lazy teenage boy stuff and how much is really "I can't handle it"? Where is the instructor's manual for that? :D

 

I'm reviving this thread, in part because I have found it helpful, but also because I am hoping some people will weigh in on the bolded comment above, because I am struggling with this same issue right now.

[Gwen in VA]

Something to be aware of -- sometimes the time involved in dual-enrollment or AP classes is LESS than the time mom expects a student to put in to her class!

 

Ds2 found his CC classes his senior year required MUCH less work than his classes for me did. AP classes can take huge amounts of time, but some don't.

 

Don't assume that because your 10th or 11th grader takes forever doing his work for your classes that he cannot do dual-enrollment or AP the next year!

[Kimber]

I took a Summer training class for English Language. Gwen is correct. Most AP classes aren't hard. The difficulty is about learning what's involved in the process. The AP classes just aren't that difficult. They only polish about 2 papers per year. The students write their essays in class, rough drafts only. They're taught to the test. And they only read an average of 4 books a year. Some schools cant even afford books. They read only excerpts.

 

The reason, I imagine, that more kids are failing the test is that the AP people are pushing equity. They know the information they're teaching is valuable and they believe more students should have the opportunity to learn it.

 

Basically, if our kids study the progym, take a few practice exams, our kids should be able to pass the test fairly easily. But one thing I was told, if a student didn't study under an approved syllabus, his test results don't count, even if he passed the test.

 

Kim

 

Also the homework for the AP English Language class is typically reading and a couple of projects like putting together a documentary or literature based art project.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Kimber

[snowbeltmom]

But one thing I was told, if a student didn't study under an approved syllabus, his test results don't count, even if he passed the test.

 

I have read this before and it makes no sense to me. :confused:

Who told you this? I have looked at many colleges' AP credit policies, and have never seen a stipulation that that class syllabus had to be approved. The only data point the colleges seem to be interested in is the student's score on the AP exam.

[Mom22ns]

I have read this before and it makes no sense to me. :confused:

Who told you this? I have looked at many colleges' AP credit policies, and have never seen a stipulation that that class syllabus had to be approved. The only data point the colleges seem to be interested in is the student's score on the AP exam.

 

It makes no sense because it isn't true. Colleges give credit for AP exams based on test results alone. They may or may not accept an exam, but taking an approved class has nothing to do with it.

 

You cannot list a class as AP on your child's transcript unless the syllabus was approved, even if they take the test. You have to list the class as "American History" then list the AP test score as opposed to listing it as "AP American History" with or without the test score.

 

Syllabus approval determines how the class is labeled not if colleges give credit for it.

[snowbeltmom]

Syllabus approval determines how the class is labeled not if colleges give credit for it.

 

Thanks. I thought that was the case, but since the policies of colleges vary widely, I wondered if I was missing something.

[Kimber]

I know it makes no sense at all. But that is what I was told at an AP Summer Institute by a lead grader. It doesn't make sense. I plan to call the College Board to see if it's true. (I haven't had time to call yet because I'm behind already and school starts next week at our house.)

 

The other thing is another lady I know who took a different AP Class was told the same thing by another grader at the institute.

 

Believe me, I know it doesn't make sense. I left the training scratching my head on that one. But it is what I was told. I am hoping the ladies made a mistake because of their interpretation of some new guideline. I can see how that could happen.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Kimber

[angela in ohio]

I took a Summer training class for English Language. Gwen is correct. Most AP classes aren't hard. The difficulty is about learning what's involved in the process. The AP classes just aren't that difficult. They only polish about 2 papers per year. The students write their essays in class, rough drafts only. They're taught to the test. And they only read an average of 4 books a year. Some schools cant even afford books. They read only excerpts.

 

I've been putting together our AP English Language Syllabus, and I haven't seen this to be true. The sample syllabi on the AP site list many writing projects for the year, many of them completed out of class. The minimum requirement is that they write three different types of essays, plus informal writing (journals, etc.) Yes, they only read about 4 novels, usually less, but that's because the AP English Language requirements are that a majority of the readings be non-fction, so novels, short stories, and poetry are less important. AP Literature is where they read novels. Instead, for the English test, students read and analyze a lot of essays and articles. There is an emphasis on revision, too, in the requirements, so a syllabus with only rough drafts would probably not be approved, from what I read.

 

In order to get a good score on an AP exam, a student must have learned a good deal of material or skills. In order to teach to the test, you must teach a student to write three types of essays, analyze sources, write in a mature way with sentence variation and effective vocabulary, understand grammatical constructions and rhetoical devices, etc. That kind of teaching to the test sounds just like what I'm doing with my classically educated kiddos anyway. :D

 

I'm sure a school could teach it poorly (and I'm sure plenty do,) but based on what College Board says an AP course requires, it is rigorous. I don't think they're for everyone, but that doesn't mean they are useless to all.

Edited August 16, 2012 by angela in ohio

[snowbeltmom]

Believe me, I know it doesn't make sense. I left the training scratching my head on that one. But it is what I was told.

 

My guess would be that the graders are confused. Like Debbie said a few posts up the thread, the course syllabus needs to be approved in order to use the AP designation on the transcript.

 

Let us know what the College Board says. It is always possible that there is a college out there with this policy, although I have serious doubts that would be the case.

[Kimber]

Since I brought up this question, I went ahead and called them. If I have time to post, I have time to verify that statement before I cause a stir. The lady I spoke to will call me back.

 

I sure hope the info I received was wrong. I would say I misunderstood, but I know I wasn't the only one who received that info.

 

Kim

 

She already called back. It seems that they were trying to warn us that some colleges may not accept the AP grade if the AP class is not on the transcript. So the rep I spoke to said check the college. Which colleges this applied to, I have no idea.

 

During the training, discussions swirled about colleges complaining that some students passed the test but then got to college and couldn't write at a college level.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Kimber

[Kimber]

I spoke too general, maybe. However, I read and have in my sweaty little hands a binder filled with samples of AP essays, and I had 8th graders who had taken the LToW and could write an argumentative essay as well as many of the essays. The synthesis essay also, not hard. It's the rhetorical essay that's a little more difficult. That and the MC.

 

I sat in a class with about 20-25 teachers from different schools and what I said was correct, but you're right that the test is rigorous. What I meant, should have been more clear, is that if following TWTM or CW or LToW with a little extra work, our students will be fine. It's definitely doable.

 

Sorry for being dismissive of the rigor. It's just as homeschooling moms, I think we underestimate our own level of rigor. That's the point I was really trying to make.

 

Hope that makes sense, :)

Edited August 16, 2012 by Kimber