high school as high school?

[snowbeltmom]

She already called back. It seems that they were trying to warn us that some colleges may not accept the AP grade if the AP class is not on the transcript. So the rep I spoke to said check the college. Which colleges this applied to, I have no idea.

Thanks for calling. By "AP grade" are they referring to the exam score?

Just curious since I haven't gone through the AP approval process, but does the College Board charge a fee in order to go through the approval process? I realize that they are a "non-profit", so I am trying not to be cynical.;)

 

During the training, discussions swirled about colleges complaining that some students passed the test but then got to college and couldn't write at a college level.

I don't see how taking an official AP class will solve this problem. If the student can't write at the college level, yet still passes the CB test, it seems to me the test is to blame, not whether or not the student took an official AP class.

 

From reading College Confidential the last few months, there are some motivated students who self-study for AP exams because their schools do not offer the classes. If there are any colleges out there that will only accept the AP score if the student took an approved AP course, these students would be the most affected.

[angela in ohio]

I spoke too general, maybe. However, I read and have in my sweaty little hands a binder filled with samples of AP essays, and I had 8th graders who had taken the LToW and could write an argumentative essay as well as many of the essays. The synthesis essay also, not hard. It's the rhetorical essay that's a little more difficult. That and the MC.

 

I sat in a class with about 20-25 teachers from different schools and what I said was correct, but you're right that the test is rigorous. What I meant, should have been more clear, is that if following TWTM or CW or LToW with a little extra work, our students will be fine. It's definitely doable.

 

Sorry for being dismissive of the rigor. It's just as homeschooling moms, I think we underestimate our own level of rigor. That's the point I was really trying to make.

 

Hope that makes sense, :)

 

I don't think they're hard as in they contain some magical info only certified teachers can access. I agree with you there. I don't think the material is overly difficult, but I also don't think the skills learned in an AP course are useless or that they don't require hard work.

 

I just see a common refrain on this board that AP courses are worthless or easy to ace without learning anything or so on. I don't think most people have actually *looked* at the tests. I'm just saying (in general, not to you specifically or to this thread specifically) that you can say that not everyone needs to take them without having to make dismissive comments about them as a whole.

 

And as far as the rumor about all these colleges wanting to see the course, not just the test... that's the point when I ask people for the name of a specific college. They usually can't give one. They heard it from a friend who went to a conference given by a lady who heard it from her neighbor who used to work in an admissions office. :lol:

[Kimber]

Yes, sorry I keep doing that. Saying grade instead of score.

 

And yes, it doesn't bode well for the AP process if a student can pass that test but not pass a college level class. I think that's why the movement of (a few? some?) colleges in that direction. Maybe they assume the test by itself isn't enough.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yes, sorry I keep doing that. Saying grade instead of score.

 

And yes, it doesn't bode well for the AP process if a student can pass that test but not pass a college level class. I think that's why the movement of (a few? some?) colleges in that direction. Maybe they assume the test by itself isn't enough.

 

I find it a stretch to say that the exam by itself doesn't warrant mastery, but the exam with a grade from an officially audited course does. All of the stats (from CB) that I've looked at indicate that far more students take (and presumably pass) the course than get a 3+ on the exam (let along the 4+ that many colleges are going to for credit).

 

I'm not saying that there is no college out there that wants to see the course too. (Though I haven't encountered one yet.) I'm just saying that I don't think that having taken an officially audited class doesn't demonstrate more than the test score (imo).

 

Now what I will grant as a possibility is that there are students who have been well prepped for the specific situation of an AP exam, but are less well prepared to read and discuss copious amounts of literature. This could especially be an issue for students who took the English Literature and Comp exam but not the AP English Literature exam. (Because the Comp course is often taken junior year and some colleges only give one validation for AP English - for either Comp or Lit, it seems that many students choose not to take the AP Lit exam and sometimes not even the course, having decided that it's not worth the effort since they won't get two courses worth of credit. This was a topic a couple weeks back on the AP English teachers' email list.)

 

When I was getting my English degree and even in my non-majors courses, we frequently read a different work each week, with an 2-5 page essay required on each work.

 

FWIW, I found that the CB reps at the homeschool conference I attended in April were confidently stating that an AP instructor had to have attended official CB training and be an approved AP teacher. When I did more digging, this proved not to be a requirement from CB. It may or may not be required by some school districts.

[snowbeltmom]

I find it a stretch to say that the exam by itself doesn't warrant mastery, but the exam with a grade from an officially audited course does. All of the stats (from CB) that I've looked at indicate that far more students take (and presumably pass) the course than get a 3+ on the exam (let along the 4+ that many colleges are going to for credit)

.

:iagree:

It is common at my public school for a student to get an "A" in the AP class, but a "1" on the AP exam.

[FaithManor]

:iagree:

It is common at my public school for a student to get an "A" in the AP class, but a "1" on the AP exam.

 

 

This is the NORM here. Therefore, though dd applied to 12 uni's (albeit all of them midwestern so I can only speak from regional experience) these uni's (U of M, MSU, etc.) put no weight on the class itself...what they wanted to see was a 4 or 5 on the exam. We were never questioned about not having an approved AP course. I am using AP textbooks with the kids and they self-study and take the exams. I just labeled dd's course that she sat the exams for as Honors Chem, Honors Biology, Honors Physics, etc. I submitted a detailed course description and listed the texts used which made it easy to verify, if they wanted to and I doubt they took the time, she had studied with an AP approved text. She was admitted at all 12 uni's, 8 of which were fairly high tier 1 rankings, 3 were safeties, and one was a fairly well regarded Christian uni. She landed at University of Michigan. Her AP's counted towards merit aid.

 

But, since all of these schools were in one region, I can't say that there aren't schools in other regions that demand an AP approved course. If that is the case, then our local public schools are in a world of hurting. Due to budget cuts, most of the AP courses are gone for this school year with the resources being devoted to remedial education.

 

Faith

[Kimber]

FWIW, I found that the CB reps at the homeschool conference I attended in April were confidently stating that an AP instructor had to have attended official CB training and be an approved AP teacher. When I did more digging, this proved not to be a requirement from CB. It may or may not be required by some school districts.

 

I guess everything one hears isn't true. :-)

 

I can't argue for the common sense of what I relayed. I'm simply repeating the conversation. That was the discussion. As far as which colleges complain about students not being able to pass the class, I really don't know.

 

Now what I will grant as a possibility is that there are students who have been well prepped for the specific situation of an AP exam, but are less well prepared to read and discuss copious amounts of literature. This could especially be an issue for students who took the English Literature and Comp exam but not the AP English Literature exam. (Because the Comp course is often taken junior year and some colleges only give one validation for AP English - for either Comp or Lit, it seems that many students choose not to take the AP Lit exam and sometimes not even the course, having decided that it's not worth the effort since they won't get two courses worth of credit. This was a topic a couple weeks back on the AP English teachers' email list.)

Makes sense to me too. But some of the AP approved English Lit syllabi only have 4 or 5 complete novels as well.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This partly feeds into my discomfort with the original direction of the thread. I didn't have any AP courses in high school. Yet I read dozens of quality novels and reams of poetry, short stories and essays.

 

I have a couple of the editions of the English textbooks I used. I've also seen the most recent editions. They added lots of full color illustrations and editorial commentary, but at the expense of many pieces of actual literature.

 

When I look at the thrust of an AP class I see what my teachers did not for the label and the credit but just because that's what college prep was then. (This experience was in two very different states btw. )

 

I have similar work expectations for my kids. It happens that this level of output is similar to the expectations on AP exams. So I will probably steer them toward that means of quantifying their work. It's not AP that is the gold standard. But Austen and Shakespeare and Crane and Bradbury and Dickens are (at least for me).

[Kimber]

I understand, and I agree with you. The AP are worthwhile exams that are based on a classical education in the sense of what we try to give our kids. And there is worth even beyond that.

 

If a student passes the AP exam, the parents save money and the child can skip the class. Also, many colleges teach a different worldview than what I do. They're way more liberal than I am. I'd rather my cover some of these issues with my child at home with an AP level class than a dual cred class taught by a professor with values different than mine.

 

Also the colleges, for the most part, do value the results of these exams. I think it gives my child validation for what I do at home with them. Is it as important as the SAT or ACT? I don't think so. But every advantage that I can give my children is worth it. Will it hurt them if they don't do it? I don't think so. But, again, every advantage that I can give my children is worth it.

 

So, again, I agree with you.

 

Plus the information is just golden. I love the study of rhetoric and that is what this Language and Comp test covers. It covers critical thinking and the art of manipulation and all kids should take it, in my opinion, not just the accelerated college prep kids.

 

Kim

 

I have to disconnect. It's thundering and lightening here. :-)