Rivka Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I was raised in the United Church of Christ (a liberal, social justice-oriented mainline Protestant church), and "converted" to Unitarian-Universalism because my husband is UU and we wanted to go to church together. For several years I identified as "Christian UU," and then gradually that identity ebbed away. It would be difficult to overstate how closely our family is wrapped up in the UU church. My husband has been in church leadership for many years and now is the president of our congregation. We vacation every year at a UU summer camp, and I now serve on the camp's board of trustees. We're committed to UU religious education for our kids. We're an "every Sunday" family. Most of our close friends are UU. The problem is that for over a year now I have felt alienated from my church. I don't want to be there. I slip out of the service when the kids leave for Religious Education, and either kill time in the parish hall or work on special projects for the RE director. I don't like our minister, who is relatively new. And as my husband's leadership role has become increasingly important, I've felt more and more like I'm fading into the background. I also feel consigned to the RE Ghetto, expected to do stuff with the kids' program rather than feeling valued as part of the larger congregation. I'm also just grappling for something... more. I don't even know what "more" would look like. I want more intellectual and emotional engagement and a more passionate sense of mission. If I were to change churches, it would be without my family. It would mean having to figure out how to still support my kids in developing a UU identity. And it would involve logistical issues; we only have one car and there aren't any churches in walking distance. It would be really difficult. I don't even know if I want to change churches, or if I want to find more depth and connection within UU. If you've read this far, and you are a religious liberal: - If you're UU, can you recommend any books or sermon podcasts that you think would help deepen my faith and make me feel more engaged? - If you're not UU, and especially if you used to be UU and then stopped, could you tell me about your religious journey and what kind of church you attend now? I've been looking at Episcopal, UCC, and Presbyterian churches, and feeling very uncertain. I am looking for intellectual challenge, meaningful ritual, good music, inclusiveness, and a commitment to the social gospel. ...I think. I don't know what I want. I just want something different from what I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplain Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 :grouphug: My heart hurts for you! It sounds like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. I'm re-evaluating my church involvement right now too. I think I'll always consider myself a UU, but I'm not sure that I will continue to attend Sunday services, because they haven't been meeting my needs lately. (RE may have something to do with it for me too.) I could see myself limiting future involvement to small group ministry.... Whatever you decide, I wish you peace and clarity. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm Episcopalian. I definitely "hear" you with regard to being consigned to the RE ghetto. I think that before you make any decision, whether to stay or leave, it would be a good idea for you to find out what it is you want from church--any church. Since you are yearning for intellectual challenge, I suggest researching into church history, the origins of scripture, the many different translations out there, and how different traditions have evolved in the various branches of Christiandom. Consider taking a class online, or join a discussion board that focuses on theological discussion. In other words, make this a personal endeavor to find what resonates, and what repels. Be prepared for this to take a looooong time, due to the sheer amount of information. You can, of course, leave your church and search for something else while doing your research. However, I think that no church out there is going to really provide the kind of depth you're looking for, because most all churches are going to operate around the "lowest common denominator" approach when it comes to tackling really difficult concepts. I can't tell you how many Bible studies and doctrinal study groups I've attended, from Episcopalian to Presbyterian to Catholic to Evangelical that professed to be "in the meat of the faith," only to be disappointed with the relatively light fare. Because most people simply do not have the historical understanding and foundation to even begin to grasp the really weighty questions. No matter how many times they've read the Bible or how many confirmation classes they've taught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I am not UU. I attended an Episcopal Church when I lived in NYC (left 2 1/2 years ago) and was reconfirmed there. But when we moved to Florida, the Episcopal churches near us were FAR from liberal. I looked and looked and then gave up. I recently started searching again and found a United Church of Christ Church near me. I have gone for 3 weeks. My boys really like it, it is an "open and affirming" church (very important to me), non-dogmatic and very accepting. They also have a soup kitchen and other outreach activities (also important to me). I don't LOVE the pastor--his sermons are a bit prosaic, to be honest. But after attending Trinity Church in NYC, I think I need lower my "standards" (don't mean to sound snotty, but they did have wonderful speakers and pastors). I get an overall good vibe there, which is good. One blog I really like is Experimental Theology. I actually get it delivered to my Kindle (via Amazon) and look forward to reading it. I recently read some Philip Gulley books: If Grace is True and If God Is Love. Not sure if that's what you're looking for. I also enjoy reading Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Good luck. PM me if you want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I am looking for intellectual challenge, meaningful ritual, good music, inclusiveness, and a commitment to the social gospel I hear you on this. This is what I was looking for too. I settled a bit--I think the intellectual challenge is very hard to find. Episcopal had, for me, very meaningful ritual-I loved it. But like I said, Episcopal churches are very different down South (or at least near me). Maybe we could start a yahoo group :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrookValley. Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 No real words of wisdom, as I can only claim to identify with the liberal part of religious liberal, :tongue_smilie: but as someone exploring religion and spirituality the one place I felt at home was within a Quaker meeting. It may not be what you are looking for in terms of ritual (and you won't get good music), but you can't beat 'em for their sense of service and social justice. Of course, a lot depends on the individual Meeting, but most meetings are small and very personal/connected. If that's what you're after. Good luck. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Rivka - is your issue with UUs in general or with your particular church? In other words are there others that could provide you with more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison in KY Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I am sorry you are struggling. I don't really know what UU is or believes in, but I wanted to recommend a few pastors that you can see off you tube or websites. They may totally not be your taste, but I thought I'd just give you some ideas. Francis Chan off you tube, Andrew Wommack has a website, or visit our church website at http://www.faithcenter.tv. You can see sermon series through the media loop. All of the above are non-denominational preachers. Alison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Well, I've spoken here before about my own disconnect from our UU church. We had a rather more dramatic event at the beginning of the year that first pushed me towards re-evaluating my relationship with our church. But, truth to tell, I've felt disappointed with UU-ism for a long time. I, too, want more intellectual challenge from my church. But, the thing is, I also really want "church." Many years ago, a family member said that the UU fellowship I was then attending was less like a church and more like "a discussion group with music." And I've come back to that definition more and more often in the last decade. I've been looking longingly at the website for the local UCC. Every Sunday afternoon, after I come home from church dejected, I promise myself I'll try to go to one of their services "the next time I have a chance." But I just don't know when that chance will come. My husband has never been big into attending church at all, and he has been even less interested since our debacle with RE this year. My daughter attends every now and then, when she's not sleeping or in rehearsal. Given my choice, I'd not bother to go there again. However, my son is extremely attached. Church is his second home -- although he's been feeling alienated this year, too -- and most of his closest friends are there. For a variety of reasons, I don't feel comfortable sending him alone. But neither my husband nor my daughter is going to step up to that plate and take him so I can go elsewhere. And the services at the church I really want to try conflict with "ours." After I found I just couldn't sit through another service this past Sunday, I slipped out. I think I have finally decided I'm going to the UCC church this Sunday. I'll let you know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trafal Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 You might enjoy checking out this website http://www.internetmonk.com They have deep thoughtful conversations about Christianity and many of the regular posters seem to be of a more liberal bent. I am a conservative baptist but I find this website to be intellectually stimulating even if I disagree with many of the articles/ opinions. No personal flaming is allowed which I appreciate. Good luck with your journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Well, does your church have an adult RE program? It might be a good time to participate in a Building Your Own Theology program. It was one of the best things I ever did at church. The thing with being a UU, and I know you know this, is that it requires work. No one tells you what to think or even to think at all. No one tells you how to do much. If you feel a bit lost then it requires some work from you. Sometimes that is HARD. OTOH, if you don't do the work it can leave church feeling a bit like a doughnut, empty at the center. What you are describing sounds like one of those difficult times. A really good mom once told me that when our children are at their most difficult to love, that is the time to love them harder and hold them close. At a time when your church isn't feeding your soul it might be time to roll up your sleeves and work in the 'kitchen'. I think before you start journeying around, looking for a new place (if that is what you are thinking), it might be best to first spend some time figuring out what you need. Moving to a new church will give you something to do and things to think about, but you might end up in the same emotional space when things settle down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I've been looking at Episcopal, UCC, and Presbyterian churches, and feeling very uncertain. I am looking for intellectual challenge, meaningful ritual, good music, inclusiveness, and a commitment to the social gospel. ...I think. I don't know what I want. I just want something different from what I have. I'm not sure I could say I'm socially liberal. I sort of don't fit into any standard categories when it comes to church and social issues. If you want intellectually challenging, meaningful ritual, good music...you should look at the Eastern Orthodox church. Seriously. Start looking at church history... this alone will probably strengthen your faith. Especially if you're careful not to only get your historical information from Protestant sources, since Protestantism is fairly new to the 2000 year history of the church. You'll probably find yourself saying "Why didn't anyone tell me about this before??" I know I did. I learned SO much and it made me so excited about my faith. But, "inclusiveness and " commitment to social gospel" may depend on the individual parish. Historically, Orthodox people have been terribly persecuted throughout the world (Middle East, Russia to name the obvious), so they tend to hunker down and keep to their own for protection. It's changing a bit in America, but old habits die hard. But, I also wanted to comment about going to church alone because I did do that. I converted to EO but my husband did not. The kids were given the choice and opted to come with me, but there was the real chance that they wouldn't - it was their choice. Yes, you're right to be concerned. It certainly isn't the perfect solution but I couldn't, in good conscience, stay where I was and it was not fair to force my husband to come along with me if he had his own doubts. No it isn't perfect, but I wouldn't go back either... I just couldn't. My advice would be to take this leap of faith in your spiritual journey. Don't let fear hold you back. Perhaps give yourself a time limit- do it for 6-12 months and re-evaluate. Just because you search doesn't mean you'll end up worshiping alone. Plus, you don't know what effect this journey will have on your husband and children. One thing I do guarantee - it will change you. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 :lurk5: I'm in a slightly different situation, with similar goals. We attended a UU church up until we moved. Now the nearest one is an hour and a half away, and we've never made it. And I'm working every Sunday, so we likely won't in the foreseeable future. I'm looking for podcasts or videos, both for myself and kid-oriented. http://www.koober.org/, from the UU church of Nashua, NH, is the only source I've found that has the whole service (minus the personal bits like milestones), rather than just the sermon. I've listened to their music (it made up the majority of my labor playlist!), but have yet to listen to a whole service. They don't have podcasts, but do livestream the service on Sundays. We half want to go back to an LDS church for the community and social structure, but neither of us agree with the theology, nor do we feel like faking it. I'd be willing to try a Quaker meetinghouse (though that tends to lack the musical aspect, which is important to me, too), UCC, or possibly very liberal Protestant, but I'm really not seeing any churches in my area that fit that description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 As a liberal Christian, you might really enjoy the sermons of Timothy Phillips at Seattle's First Baptist. He is a partnered gay man leading a community of liberal American Baptists. (I know, Baptist is was not the first word that came to my mind when I thought liberal Christianity). Very intellectually and spiritually challenging. http://www.seattlefirstbaptist.org/ As for your current situation how about using your influence to call attention to the fact that you (and maybe others?) are being relegated to RE volunteer work and that the community is not meeting your spiritual needs? I bet you are not the only one feeling upset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 We half want to go back to an LDS church for the community and social structure, but neither of us agree with the theology, nor do we feel like faking it. I'd be willing to try a Quaker meetinghouse (though that tends to lack the musical aspect, which is important to me, too), UCC, or possibly very liberal Protestant, but I'm really not seeing any churches in my area that fit that description. Rivka, please excuse the threadjack. Ocelotmom, have you read Joanna Brooks's new memoir The Book of Mormon Girl? Joanna is, in her own words, a very unorthodox Mormon who returned to active church attendance after being away for a decade. I'm officially out of Mormonism at this point, but I loved Joanna's book and have been enjoying her blog as well. Definitely worth checking out if you are contemplating whether you could go back to the LDS church as nonbelievers. It's not the path for me, but it seems to be working for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Rivka, I wish I had answers. We have attended a mix of UU and UCC churches for the past 10 years. After our recent house move, we are back at a UU church. I find myself drawn to the Episcopalian liturgy and attend when I travel, but UUism is a better theological fit for some of my kids. Does your UU church do small group ministry? I have found that to be effective at giving me greater connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I don't like our minister, who is relatively new. And as my husband's leadership role has become increasingly important, I've felt more and more like I'm fading into the background. I also feel consigned to the RE Ghetto, expected to do stuff with the kids' program rather than feeling valued as part of the larger congregation. I'm also just grappling for something... more. I don't even know what "more" would look like. I want more intellectual and emotional engagement and a more passionate sense of mission. Is there any project you could join or start up at your current church that would get you out of the RE ghetto and give you an identity apart from your family? Are you looking for more intellectual pursuits or do you feel the need to believe in something? Those are very different paths and possibly contradictory. Are you in a season of your life where you just have to put your family's needs above your own? It's hard, but sometimes necessary to just suck it up and go along with what's best for your kids even if you don't like it. I did the reverse of what you're doing and stuck with raising the kids Catholic even though I would have preferred joining a UU congregation. I follow my own path at home and just go along for the ride at church. It's gotten easier over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The thing with being a UU, and I know you know this, is that it requires work. No one tells you what to think or even to think at all. No one tells you how to do much. If you feel a bit lost then it requires some work from you. Sometimes that is HARD. OTOH, if you don't do the work it can leave church feeling a bit like a doughnut, empty at the center. :iagree: I know all about being resigned to the RE ghetto. This is my first year at our UU church where I haven't spent most of the year in the basement. I also think it can be harder belonging somewhere where it's completely fine and acceptable not to go to service or to enjoy or agree with your minister. We have 2 ministers. One I love to listen too. The other drives me nuts. My husband and I spend some services chatting over a cup of coffee in the library, while the kids are at RE, rather than going to service if that's what we need that week. I do feel lucky that our church is large and has many options to engage and you can pick and choose. There are many adult RE opportunities - meditation groups, book clubs, sermon discussions after service, social justice groups, Wed dinner and lectures, etc and many options are specifically designed to be intellectually stimulating. Last winter someone fainted in service and 6 doctors got up to help her! We have an "over educated" church population and I actually think that can intimidate new potential members. I was raised Roman Catholic and the fact that not everything has to be a perfect fit and mandatory at church all the time really appeals to me. Anyway - I would just make sure you're looking at all options in your current community or any new community to engage. I think it's fine and great actually to draw a line with RE and completely shake it up. I'd spend some time reading and really thinking about what you're looking for. I know locally I'd be extremely hard pressed (we looked at many churches before we got married)to find something more intellectually challenging, open ended, and engaging than our current environment. Even if it's not perfect. I do not ID as a Christian at all anymore, so that really limits options. Part of my path to being a UU was letting go of the service as an idol (which it definitely was in my upbringing). It's wonderful to go and draw wisdom from a sermon. It's also fine (for me at least) to tap other sources for wisdom and still enjoy and draw from a community of like minded people. Are you looking for more intellectual pursuits or do you feel the need to believe in something? Those are very different paths and possibly contradictory. I think this is an important question to answer definitely before you make any huge changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Could you find a Saturday evening service, or a Sunday evening service, to attend elsewhere and then still go with the family on Sunday? That might help with the transportation and other issues. Since you're uncertain about where to go, I'd just go to any one near you and take it from there. If you like the service, you can go back - if not, keep looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Y'all, this is so helpful, both in terms of the concrete suggestions and clarifying questions, and just in terms of making me feel supported and less alone. Thank you so much. I'm going to try to group some of my responses, but if I don't quote you specifically, please know that it's not because I didn't value your post. Rivka - is your issue with UUs in general or with your particular church? In other words are there others that could provide you with more? I don't fully know, which is why I was interested in seeking UU resources that people have experienced as having more depth. I know that I've heard UU talks and sermons before that did give me this feeling of deep engagement. I do connect with the UU Principles, and with the idea that we are each responsible for our own search for meaning. But sometimes UU feels shallow and superficial to me. I really resonated with this article: The Liberal Church Finding Its Mission: It's Not About You. Particularly this part: A disciplined search for truth and meaning takes effort; it takes discipline. Being unencumbered by doctrine ought not imply that doctrine is not examined for the truth it may contain. Indeed, not being constrained by creedal formulations seems to have been translated into an abandonment of theological reflection altogether. We offer a non-dogmatic approach and context to religious inquiry without equipping members of our communities for the search. Discerning your spiritual path is difficult without tools, without support. Faith formation is not simply adult religious education. Run a couple of classes on building your own theology and spiritual practice and then you’re done. Formation involves worship and preaching, mission work and governance. It’s the work of the entire enterprise of being church together. It takes place collectively, mutually as well as individually. We are also formed as people of faith in conversation with the tradition, with our historic testimonies. The tradition speaks to us and we respond. We respond lovingly, critically, thoughtfully–but recognize that our historic context has a voice shaping today’s conversation about who we are and what we’re about. Being together in community takes discipline and effort. I think we have become lazy and simply tell each other, “You do your thing, and I’ll do mine. You have your spiritual practice and I have my book discussion group. Whatever.” But there are also issues for me that are specific to my church, and my current minister, and my family's particular position in the church. I know that. Well, I've spoken here before about my own disconnect from our UU church. We had a rather more dramatic event at the beginning of the year that first pushed me towards re-evaluating my relationship with our church. But, truth to tell, I've felt disappointed with UU-ism for a long time. I, too, want more intellectual challenge from my church. But, the thing is, I also really want "church." Many years ago, a family member said that the UU fellowship I was then attending was less like a church and more like "a discussion group with music." And I've come back to that definition more and more often in the last decade. I've been thinking about your journey, and actually I've gone back and re-read the thread you started several times. I hope you do keep posting about your experiences. My congregation is probably much more churchy than the average UU church; we follow a traditional Protestant order of service, have organ music & a choir, sometimes have prayer or ritual as part of the service, etc. But redsquirrel's doughnut analogy still resonates with me. I want church to be something more than the Sunday morning chapter of the Green Party. I love the social justice thinking, but, as the article I quoted above says, I've come to feel that it needs to be grounded in theology for it to be meaningful as a church practice. Well, does your church have an adult RE program? It might be a good time to participate in a Building Your Own Theology program. It was one of the best things I ever did at church. The thing with being a UU, and I know you know this, is that it requires work. No one tells you what to think or even to think at all. No one tells you how to do much. If you feel a bit lost then it requires some work from you. Sometimes that is HARD. OTOH, if you don't do the work it can leave church feeling a bit like a doughnut, empty at the center. I want to do the work. I kind of hunger to do the work. I don't feel like church is pointing me in that direction at all. I don't feel encouraged or supported in the work, or challenged to do it. It feels like everyone is slipping and sliding around and not really engaged with each other's beliefs. I don't want to be told, "Oh, hey, figure out what you believe, and then whatever it is, that's cool!" I want to be encouraged to poke at my beliefs looking for holes and inconsistencies and the larger implications. IDK, maybe I'm asking too much. We don't have much adult RE going on. The one ongoing class right now is a goddess spirituality course that is really not my thing. I have done some adult RE in the past that really nourished me, though. Many years ago I took a course in the theological foundations of Unitarian-Universalism, with a lot of readings and discussion, and I loved it. And I used to be part of a covenant group for people in high-stress human service jobs. That was incredibly valuable for me. What you are describing sounds like one of those difficult times. A really good mom once told me that when our children are at their most difficult to love, that is the time to love them harder and hold them close. At a time when your church isn't feeding your soul it might be time to roll up your sleeves and work in the 'kitchen'. I think before you start journeying around, looking for a new place (if that is what you are thinking), it might be best to first spend some time figuring out what you need. Moving to a new church will give you something to do and things to think about, but you might end up in the same emotional space when things settle down. These are wise words, if not particularly encouraging. I do feel like I've been putting in my time in the kitchen for the last couple of years. I've taught a lot of RE. I took this year off from teaching, hoping to reconnect with the worship services, but instead I found that even when I was freed up to go to the service I didn't actually feel like going. I've also found myself saying to people that my contribution to the church is to take care of our kids so that my husband can do his stuff, his endless meetings and e-mails. And, seriously, he couldn't be the president (or before this, the treasurer) if I weren't willing and able to cover for him at home, so I do think that this is a valuable contribution on my part. But it does have the effect of making me feel disconnected. I am trying to get involved more in some of the congregation's social justice work, particularly around marriage equality. That's definitely where I feel the most connected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 You might consider a Bible study during the week at another church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm not sure that I will continue to attend Sunday services, because they haven't been meeting my needs lately. (RE may have something to do with it for me too.) I'm Episcopalian. I definitely "hear" you with regard to being consigned to the RE ghetto. As for your current situation how about using your influence to call attention to the fact that you (and maybe others?) are being relegated to RE volunteer work and that the community is not meeting your spiritual needs? I bet you are not the only one feeling upset. I know all about being resigned to the RE ghetto. This is my first year at our UU church where I haven't spent most of the year in the basement. It's sad to see so much agreement on this aspect of things, especially talking about a liberal, supposedly egalitarian denomination! I remember when my oldest was a baby, hearing another parent complain about the RE ghetto and thinking, "Gee, I've never felt that way. I guess it's because I was already a long-term, involved member of the church before I had kids." Six years and another kid later, I know just how she felt. It's almost funny to me. Before I had kids I was an active member of the young adult group. I was in charge of training and scheduling ushers. I helped develop the church's mission and vision statements and chaired the long-range planning committee. For years, I took part in a covenant group for people in high-stress human service jobs, where we discussed how our work shaped our religious beliefs and how our religious beliefs informed our work. I would have told you that I was as deeply integrated into the church as it was possible to be. Last spring, we went to a stewardship reception for the upper 20% of donors to the church. There were a lot of people there. And none of them except the host (a friend of mine) could think of anything to say to me beyond, "Your kids are so cute. How old are they now?" It's part of my problem with our new minister, as well. He came to the church when my little guy was a newborn. I feel like he only sees me as my husband's wife. Which I am, obviously. But it's not all that I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm not sure I could say I'm socially liberal. I sort of don't fit into any standard categories when it comes to church and social issues. If you want intellectually challenging, meaningful ritual, good music...you should look at the Eastern Orthodox church. Seriously. :D I wondered how many posts it would take before someone suggested this. I respect so many of our EO posters, but I couldn't join a church which does not welcome gay and lesbian congregants, and which prescribes different roles to men and women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I respect so many of our EO posters, but I couldn't join a church which does not welcome gay and lesbian congregants, and which prescribes different roles to men and women. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I have no advice, just :grouphug:, because Iremember being in that place and the choices in front of me and how it all hurt. I'm sure as you journey, you'll find what works for all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 With a name like "Rivka", I'm thinking: Reform Judaism :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 With a name like "Rivka", I'm thinking: Reform Judaism :D Bill Hee! I see where you're coming from, and I won't deny that it could be a good fit. But despite some family heritage, I wasn't born or raised Jewish, and I'd feel like a total poser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama_Rana Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Rivka, as you know I've been attending a UU church for many years. It's where I met my husband. I'm/we're not as deeply ingrained in the church as you and your dh are, and part of it is probably some of the same stuff you're talking about. As much as I connect with our principles, I don't always feel pushed in a practical way to do anything about them. Heck, until recently I'm not sure I understood all of them. Some of my disconnect might have been minister-related. I was not inspired by the minister who was in the pulpit when I first started attending services at my current church. Then we had an interim minister who I liked a bit more, but still... I LOVE our current minister. When I manage to attend a service of hers, I'm almost always inspired, uplifted, left asking more questions that I seek answers to, etc. But even still.... I've racked my brains to figure out how I could feel more involved in our congregation, what my contribution could be. I know how to teach, but I don't want to do that all the time because then I never get to go to service. My one and only suggestion is something that our interim minister started. Our congregation has small group discussion groups that meet once or twice a month. I've never participated, though every year I wish I did. But my understanding is that they delve deeply into some of the theological questions in a personal way. There is some sort of structure, but also lots of time for discussion and reflection. A friend of mine is involved in the organization of it; I could get you two connected if that is something that interests you. My family is calling me away to dinner, but perhaps I'll have more to add later! I wish you lots of luck in your journey to wherever you decide to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hee! I see where you're coming from, and I won't deny that it could be a good fit. But despite some family heritage, I wasn't born or raised Jewish, and I'd feel like a total poser. For sake of argument, you may have been born "Jewish" according to Reform practice as for them (unlike Orthodox beliefs) "Jewishness" passes along both patrilineal and matrilineal lines. The religious practice is focused on social justice and "healing the world" (Tikkun Olam) and not on Torah observance so I doubt you'd feel like a poser. And with Friday night and maybe Saturday services you have no scheduling conflicts ;) Just saying. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I'm with Mouse. I have no advice or suggestions, but I do feel for you and wish you the best on your journey. When we started the conversion process from one part of Christianity to a different part -- one that was completely foreign to me (at the time) -- it felt so very daunting. But I knew I couldn't stay where I was anymore, for certain reasons (which opened up specific doors and closed other ones). I do hope you "fare thee well" as you move forward. :grouphug: Edited February 7, 2012 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Oh, I totally hear you! I like to say I was raised religious left. In a Baptist church, but a weird one - it's this Baptist church, for anyone in Raleigh, NC who might be looking for a nice liberal congregation. :) We attend a UU church now and have for several years - my kids are growing up there and sing in the children's choir and are well known to everyone in the RE basement. They feel a real UU identity. But I feel really uncertain about it in some ways. On the one hand, I like many things about our church - it's in our urban neighborhood and reflects the make up of that neighborhood to a good extent, which means that it's miles more racially diverse than our homeschool community, something I really value both for my life and for my kids. The preaching is good - and I have a pretty high bar for what makes a good sermon as I was raised by an ordained minister. I like to make fun a bit of UU music, but the music at our church is actually really good. I almost always leave the service feeling good. But... there's something deeper missing there for me that I'm trying to figure out and put my finger on. To some extent, I think it's something about being a UU - a creedless denomination - that might be inherently unchallenging. Before starting to go to our church, I used to joke about UU's as having "no there there" - it's a bit of a squishy, nebulous faith at its heart. I worry that there's something missing there for me - even though the sermons make me think, they don't usually push me somewhere new. But some of it is also that I've never attended a church that's this disorganized. We've been going there for years now - dh has served on committees, we've both taught RE... yet I still feel like it's been hard to break in on some level and part of that isn't that people are unfriendly, it's that the whole organizational structure is a mess. The church is starting a (much needed) capital campaign to renovate our century plus old building, and when they had people stand up to give testimonials about what the church has meant to them, both dh and I felt a little sad because while we value the church, it hasn't been that central piece of our lives. Some of that, I feel, is because the community is sort of disjointed and large. I've been struggling with deciding if I want to recommit myself - double down, so to speak and get properly involved - or if I want to step back and let us just be part of the crowd. Whenever I go to my mother's church in Durham, NC with her now, I feel sad that our church isn't a bit more like it - it's small, it's liberal, the preaching and the music are good, but the organization and the sense of community are really strong. One of my religious regrets to some extent is that I didn't push for us to start attending Meeting after the kids were born. I was still working in a Quaker school - I didn't want to go to the Meeting closest to us and the one up the road had students and their families - too much like work. Dh didn't feel any affinity with the Friends and he pushed for us to try our current UU church. Now I feel like its the kids' community and while I really crave going to Meeting sometimes and the more I get away from my work experience, the more I see how deeply Quaker ways of doing and thinking have effected my outlook, I feel like the whole family has made this totally different commitment to be at the UU church. I'm not sure how to break away from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 And I just realized I gave no real advice. Because I have none. I just wanted to commiserate and think out loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Have you looked at any of the resources through the Church of the Larger Fellowship to see if there's anything there that might help with the intellectual stimulation part? http://clf.uua.org/ I know it's not as ideal as face to face, but might be helpful. I'll send a pm with a link to podcasts from our minister---she's been a revitalizing force for our congregation. I've been working hard to avoid the RE Ghetto by telling the RE director that I am not available to teach. I help them by building stories for the Spirit Play class. Unfortunately, if your husband's time is already that committed and you still want to have any family time, it may be hard right now to find something that works for you to be involved in other ways. Perhaps he can look at stepping back a bit (though realistically probably not until the next church year) to allow more room and time for you to do something? I know I felt isolated and shadowy when my daughter was younger. In order for either of us to do anything, someone had to provide childcare and his schedule was wonky enough that I was the only one who could reliably do it. Also, his contribution has always been singing and music, something where we aren't interchangeable;). I was Episcopalian for many years and, if I could have remained Christian, would have stayed there. The music is great, as is the liturgy, and they are, in general, very open to LGBT participation and to social justice in various forms. I really miss the liturgy, to be honest. When I was there, I participated in a program called Education for Ministry, which was a fabulous program about Biblical exegesis, church history, etc., and it looks like they have an online option now if you can't find a local group http://www.sewanee.edu/EFM/. Reform Judaism is also a good option, but I understand what you mean about the poser part.;) If I could have remained a monotheist, it would probably have been there. Close to 15 years ago, my husband and I studied for a year with the local rabbi with the intent of converting, but I was never able to go through with it. I just couldn't say with enough conviction that I believed it was the only way, at least not enough to cut my ties with my cultural heritage. I know that that isn't required, but I felt that if I was going to do it, it had to be all the way. Also, since neither of us has any Jewish heritage, I admit that I worried about acceptance long-term and, more importantly, the acceptance of any children we had (this was pre-kid). We have maintained ties with the local congregation through my husband's participation in the choir there, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Many Episcopal churches have Saturday evening services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm not religious, but have you checked out any liberal United Methodist congregations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 For sake of argument, you may have been born "Jewish" according to Reform practice as for them (unlike Orthodox beliefs) "Jewishness" passes along both patrilineal and matrilineal lines. The religious practice is focused on social justice and "healing the world" (Tikkun Olam) and not on Torah observance so I doubt you'd feel like a poser. And with Friday night and maybe Saturday services you have no scheduling conflicts ;) Just saying. Bill I had no idea. My daughter's father is Jewish. Reform. They refused to marry us but I had no idea she had a choice, that we had a choice as to how to riase her I was told she would have to wait and convert later. We are happily neo-pagan with everyone from Jesus Christ to Shakti in our home and she is well aware of the tenets of many different faiths. Dh is an agnostic and likely atheist. And my mouth is hanging open. Somebody has some explaining to do and the proverbial can of worms has been opened at my house. Wow. Thanks for an interesting thread Rivka and I assumed you were likely a Jewish person as well just because the other Rivka's I know are so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hana Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'm no help, but I just wanted to say that I understand. I am UU to my core, but do not currently feel "fed" by my church or by the larger denomination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I had no idea. My daughter's father is Jewish. Reform. They refused to marry us but I had no idea she had a choice, that we had a choice as to how to riase her I was told she would have to wait and convert later. We are happily neo-pagan with everyone from Jesus Christ to Shakti in our home and she is well aware of the tenets of many different faiths. Dh is an agnostic and likely atheist. And my mouth is hanging open. Somebody has some explaining to do and the proverbial can of worms has been opened at my house. Wow. Thanks for an interesting thread Rivka and I assumed you were likely a Jewish person as well just because the other Rivka's I know are so. I think your daughter (and Rivka) might be "dinged" for not being raised with a Jewish identity. I think that is part of the Reform qualifications for "Jewishness." I'm sorry if I raised false-hopes, but check with a Reform Temple before you go off my possibly wrong understanding. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistyMountain Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) I am an atheist but I started to go to a UU church. At m church I don't feel tied to doing RE stuff with my kids. I can see how the church might not be the best fit for some Christians though who want a church centered around that since it is more general and accepting of all beliefs. I have enjoyed the sermons I went to so far a lot and it is a good fit but I am not religious and just want my kids exposed to the RE classes and I just like the intellectual discussions on different topics and how welcoming it is. My church does have ritual, intellectual discussions, good gospel music and discussions on how to be more welcoming but I can see that some Christians would not find it to be enough for them. Edited February 8, 2012 by MistyMountain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unscripted Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I have no advice, just :grouphug:, because Iremember being in that place and the choices in front of me and how it all hurt. I'm sure as you journey, you'll find what works for all of you. She said EXACTLY what I was thinking... Just more eloquently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 For sake of argument, you may have been born "Jewish" according to Reform practice as for them (unlike Orthodox beliefs) "Jewishness" passes along both patrilineal and matrilineal lines. Yes, well, my history of baptism and confirmation might raise eyebrows... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I am an atheist but I started to go to a UU church. At m church I don't feel tied to doing RE stuff with my kids. I can see how the church might not be the best fit for some Christians though who want a church centered around that since it is more general and accepting of all beliefs. I have enjoyed the sermons I went to so far a lot and it is a good fit but I am not religious and just want my kids exposed to the RE classes and I just like the intellectual discussions on different topics and how welcoming it is. My church does have ritual, intellectual discussions, good gospel music and discussions on how to be more welcoming but I can see that some Christians would not find it to be enough for them. I don't even know that I'm looking for more Christianity. I'm looking for more depth and more of a sense of critical engagement. I don't know where I'll find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaelAldrich Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I think your daughter (and Rivka) might be "dinged" for not being raised with a Jewish identity. I think that is part of the Reform qualifications for "Jewishness." I'm sorry if I raised false-hopes, but check with a Reform Temple before you go off my possibly wrong understanding. Bill Here's the Orthodox Jew in the crowd, saying yeah, maybe you should convert to Judaism through the Reform stream (since UU and RJ are practically kissing cousins! :D), and Bill up and said it. The Reform (and Reconstructionist)stream does accept patrilineal descent as well as the tradition of matrilineal descent (which Conservative and Orthodox observe). BUT, theoretically, the person in question with only one parent being Jewish must actively make a choice to be Jewish. That means going to religious/Sunday school (and not going to a non-Jewish religious school), celebrating Jewish holidays and the like. However in real life, I haven't seen this distinction being made (I have worked for many different kinds of Jewish organizations and have Reform rabbi friends) aside from people going to be baptized or the like not being "counted" as Jewish according to them. A Reform conversion process would not require you to divorce your husband or anything like that, you don't have to keep kosher or Shabbat and stuff like that, but the conversions are not accepted throughout the Jewish world. I know lots of UU/RJ families. I wish you luck and strength in finding a spiritual home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaelAldrich Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yes, well, my history of baptism and confirmation might raise eyebrows... Yeah, but if that's in the past, then it isn't a problem to "give that up" and "come back to Judaism" if that is what you want.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'm looking for more depth and more of a sense of critical engagement. I don't know where I'll find it. This is why I have never been attracted to the UU church, despite agreement with most of their social views. :grouphug: I wish you well on your journey.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Yes, well, my history of baptism and confirmation might raise eyebrows... Nope, once a Jew always a Jew. The problem is though that you are not Jewish if you have a Jewish father according to *all* Jews, but only according to *some* (and that view is very recent), and then that presents serious problems if your children want to be or marry Orthodox Jews one day. The same problem that happens in Reform conversions - technically anyone convert with them, but not all Jews recognize the conversion as valid. For Orthodox Jews (and those of us who are not Orthoprax, but accept Orthodoxy as our framework within which we understand Judaism), the only valid conversions are Orthodox ones. It is a sad can of worms, there are many people raised as Jews nowadays who are actually not recognized by a huge part of "their" nation as such. So no, it would not be your baptism nor anything that would be a problem - but the fact that you do not have a Jewish mother or a halachically valid (for Orthodoxy) conversion. The Reform would take you with no problems, though. ;) Edited February 8, 2012 by Ester Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Before posting this thread, I did consider that it might lead to people proselytizing me. I must say, I was not expecting the efforts to be in this direction. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 What does RE stand for anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaelAldrich Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Before posting this thread, I did consider that it might lead to people proselytizing me. I must say, I was not expecting the efforts to be in this direction. :lol: I do find it funny that I say that you should look into Reform Judaism. An you wouldn't have to change your name...:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 What does RE stand for anyway? Religious Education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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