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That's just nonsense. That's like saying if my kid dies falling out of a tree, I'm responsible for his death. Yes, I could keep him out of trees. (Well maybe I could. He can be very determined!) But at some point, kids climbing trees becomes an acceptable risk for most parents.

 

That is all anyone here is saying.

 

For them, the age of acceptable risk is younger than it is for you.

 

I don't laugh at parents with 8 year olds who suck pacifiers/thumbs.

I don't laugh at parents who scream at their 10 year old to not climb the trees.

I don't laugh at parents who put a tween in a booster seat.

 

But no, I have zero interest in raising MY children that way and I don't appreciate anyone saying I have to do so in order to be a good and loving parent.

 

And yes, I have a huge problem with companies making a fortune off crappy and less crappy carseats that parents are mandated to purchase and a government regulating ME when the truly safer (and way cheaper) thing to do would be to regulate car companies to put in 5 pt harnesses instead of nearly useless lap/shoulder belts.

 

 

:iagree: Thank you! Well said! :hurray:

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So as of the New Year California law puts children under 8 (who are not freakishly tall) back into car seats or boosters by law.

 

Children under the age of 8 must be secured in a car seat or booster seat in the back seat.

 

Children under the age of 8 who are 4' 9" or taller may be secured by a safety belt in the back seat.

 

This is a battle I have waged (and recently lost) as wife and friends acted like I was "over-protective." With the passage of this legislation I have received a few "you were right after-all" comments.

 

For all the bashing of laws and regulations that takes place sometimes I think they have a place in public safety. What do you think?

 

Bill

 

They have recently introduced that law here in Victoria where I live.

My ds is so tall that if he was in a booster seat his head is way above the back of the seat, making it more dangerous. We used a H harness instead. Which is an allowable option.

 

Edited to add, we did this with all our children (H Harness until over 8) My DH worked for years in the car industry eh saw enough crash tests to know what can happen.

Edited by melissaL
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8 year olds look ridiculous in boosters to my eye.

 

Peering in car windows much? I can't say that anyone really even notices the booster unless they are sitting in it or are in the back of my car. 8 year olds are usually in a backless booster. My son is far too small physically for the belt alone to work well for him.

 

I agree that cars should be better designed rather than a whole third market product being needed. But they are not. So we do what we can now.

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I enjoyed reading that NYT article by the Freakonomics guy. Thanks for posting that. :)

 

After reading it, I googled around and found a link to his TED talk on the subject. Once again, very interesting. However, at the very end of the video, an audience member asks him the question that was on my mind the entire time.

 

Levitt looked at data for fatal car crashes. He does not show that for children, the rates of serious injury are equivalent or lower for seat belts vs. carseats. In fact, he even admits that a major study shows the exact opposite--that car seat usage dramatically lowers the rate of serious injury. He ends by saying he'd like to worth with these researchers to determine why that is; I'd really like to see the results of that collaboration.

 

(says the mom whose kids are all still in boosters/carseats)

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Two economists (freakonomics guys) studied deaths when a child aged 2-6 was in a car seats/ booster vs. a regular lap and shoulder belt and did not find a statistical difference between the two. The greatest danger is when a child is not restrained at all

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/10/magazine/10FREAK.html?ex=1189915200&en=641c83d4b0668293&ei=5070

 

I should add that I still won't take that risk and fully intend to keep my kids in boosters for a long time but it is interesting that the car seat industry is huge industry and a better solution would be for car manufacturers to design better backseats for kids since that most back seat passengers are kids.

There were plenty of problems with their analysis. Furthermore, they ignored several studies whose results contradicted their conclusions. More info here:

 

http://carseatblog.com/4857/its-super-freaky-yow/

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I find this whole discussion fascinating since I live in a place where NO ONE puts a child in car seat EVER at ANY age (I had to have one sent to me from the states for dd). In fact, it is EXTREMELY common to see a family of four on a motorbike. Mom and dad sometimes wear helmets but the kids NEVER have one on.

 

Talk about a world apart ...

 

 

.

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I lost my first husband in car accident, sense then I've been a freak about car safety.

 

My step sons who are 7 (8 in may) and 9 did not have booster seats while living with they're mom, they do now. My 5 year old and almost 4 year old are still in 5pt harness.

 

We've had the law in Michigan for a couple years now I think, but mine will be in boosters until the seat belt fits properly.

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That's just nonsense. That's like saying if my kid dies falling out of a tree, I'm responsible for his death. Yes, I could keep him out of trees. (Well maybe I could. He can be very determined!) But at some point, kids climbing trees becomes an acceptable risk for most parents.

 

That is all anyone here is saying.

 

For them, the age of acceptable risk is younger than it is for you.

 

I don't laugh at parents with 8 year olds who suck pacifiers/thumbs.

I don't laugh at parents who scream at their 10 year old to not climb the trees.

I don't laugh at parents who put a tween in a booster seat.

 

But no, I have zero interest in raising MY children that way and I don't appreciate anyone saying I have to do so in order to be a good and loving parent.

 

And yes, I have a huge problem with companies making a fortune off crappy and less crappy carseats that parents are mandated to purchase and a government regulating ME when the truly safer (and way cheaper) thing to do would be to regulate car companies to put in 5 pt harnesses instead of nearly useless lap/shoulder belts.

 

 

Attitudes like this are why I will always have a job. Always.

 

I'm not saying you're not a good and loving parent. You obviously are. I guess I just don't understand why one wouldn't make one's kids safer in an inherently dangerous situation if one could.

 

Well, not all car seats are crappy or even less crappy. I agree with you about auto manufacturers changing to 5-point harnesses. Though, you must understand, that in most wrecks most of the time, the seat belt system is perfectly safe...for adults. NOT peds.

 

I sincerely hope no one here ever has to see and experience what I have. And, let me assure you, my experiences are not in any way extraordinary, unique, or rare.

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Attitudes like this are why I will always have a job. Always.

 

I'm not saying you're not a good and loving parent. You obviously are. I guess I just don't understand why one wouldn't make one's kids safer in an inherently dangerous situation if one could.

 

Well, not all car seats are crappy or even less crappy. I agree with you about auto manufacturers changing to 5-point harnesses. Though, you must understand, that in most wrecks most of the time, the seat belt system is perfectly safe...for adults. NOT peds.

 

I sincerely hope no one here ever has to see and experience what I have. And, let me assure you, my experiences are not in any way extraordinary, unique, or rare.

 

The #1 cause of death is life. Life is inherently a dangerous situation. I don't harbor much delusion that I can or should change that all the time.

 

ER docs see some crazy stuff scary stuff every day, but I don't raise my children according to that either. Police see criminals all day long, but I don't act as though everyone might be a criminal. Using an extreme perspective for regulation purposes is not a good idea IMO.

 

Otherwise motorcycles would be illegal. I had a very good friend day in a motorcycle accident through no fault of his own. I hate motorcycles and we will never own one and all heck would break loose if my fil let one of my kids ride on his.

 

But I have no desire to regulate what other people do in regards to motorcycles.

 

So you just enjoy your job security.:)

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I find this whole discussion fascinating since I live in a place where NO ONE puts a child in car seat EVER at ANY age (I had to have one sent to me from the states for dd). In fact, it is EXTREMELY common to see a family of four on a motorbike. Mom and dad sometimes wear helmets but the kids NEVER have one on.

 

Talk about a world apart ...

 

 

.

 

No kidding.

 

It freaks me out to see kids climbing all over the place in moving cars. People even cut the seatbelts out of cars here. We needed a ride once from someone when my truck wouldn't start and apparently it was hilarious that my son and I were uncomfortable because there were no seatbelts in the car. My friend in the passenger seat laughed and laughed and laughed at us.

 

Don't you know Americans are all crazy rigid about safety? I can't tell you how many cars I pass by on a regular basis with head imprints on the windshield. But apparently it's laughable to take a simple 2 second safety measure to prevent yourself from faceplanting, or perhaps being thrown from the car. God forbid you should actually even take a safety measure with your child. It's apparently ridiculous and worthy of eye rolling.

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I have been at too many car accidents where one child in the back seat had serious internal injuries from an ill fitting lap belt and the similarly sized child next to them in a booster seat was fine. Children are not just small or same sized adults, as other posters have pointed out. The physiological differences are important and significant.

My kids will be in boosters for a long, long time. I don't really care how it looks, I am much more concerned that they walk out of an MVC without a liver or spleen laceration, a crushed pelvis, etc. Children's pelvic area and internal organs are not strong enough to withstand the incredible force in even a minor collision. the booster seat takes the brunt of that force.

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... I guess I just don't understand why one wouldn't make one's kids safer in an inherently dangerous situation if one could.

 

:iagree:

 

Sure, it costs some money and takes a few seconds to buy and use car seats and booster seats, but no amount of time or money could ever replace my ds.

 

And whenever I buy a new car, you can bet I choose the safest one I can get.

 

I can't prevent every possible danger my ds will encounter, but if something as simple as buying a safe car and using safety seats will increase his odds of survival in an accident, that's exactly what I'm going to do.

 

Ds is too old and tall for his booster seat, but I remember when he was old enough to stop using it, he was kind of sad about it, because it was very comfortable. He cheered up pretty quickly when I reminded him that the regular car seats were heated and ventilated, though, because what boy doesn't like to have more little buttons to push? ;)

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The #1 cause of death is life. Life is inherently a dangerous situation. I don't harbor much delusion that I can or should change that all the time.

 

:D Lord knows that's the truth! I tell patients often that the mortality rate of the human race is holding steady at 100%.

 

ER docs see some crazy stuff scary stuff every day, but I don't raise my children according to that either. Police see criminals all day long, but I don't act as though everyone might be a criminal. Using an extreme perspective for regulation purposes is not a good idea IMO.

 

Yes, to all you've written. And I agree about using an extreme perspective for regulation. Believe it or not I actually don't support a lot of laws/regulations. In my professional experience, unfortunately, kids being seriously injured and killed in situations where reasonable prudence would more than likely prevent those outcomes isn't extreme. Maybe it seems that way to you because you've not experienced it as often as I. I see it more frequently than I would like to, honestly. And I'm not talking about climbing trees (I can't keep my 8 yo dd out of them), either.

 

Otherwise motorcycles would be illegal. I had a very good friend day in a motorcycle accident through no fault of his own. I hate motorcycles and we will never own one and all heck would break loose if my fil let one of my kids ride on his.

 

Donor cycles, donja mean? :tongue_smilie: I'm sorry to hear about your friend. There's a gathering of motorcyclists which happens here every year called the R.O.T. Rally - the Republic of Texas Motorcycle Rally. The local trauma center always puts up a white board and tracks serious injuries and fatalities (which come through that facility) during ROT Rally weekend.

 

But I have no desire to regulate what other people do in regards to motorcycles.

 

Well, I actually don't either. But we're talking about adults here making decisions for themselves. With car seats/booster seats we're talking about adults making decisions for kids. Where we disagree is where that line of prudence is.

 

So you just enjoy your job security.:)

 

Eh. I'm not paid per patient contact. Given the numbers of years I've worked this gig I'm perfectly happy pulling a goose egg (i.e. no calls in a 24 hour shift). I just wish I didn't have to run on so many critical trauma patients. [Medical patients, too, of course. This topic concerns trauma.] I think I'm rambling. I just got off a 24 hour shift which lasted 26 hours -- very few of which were spent relaxing/sleeping.

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:iagree:

 

Sure, it costs some money and takes a few seconds to buy and use car seats and booster seats, but no amount of time or money could ever replace my ds.

 

And whenever I buy a new car, you can bet I choose the safest one I can get.

 

I can't prevent every possible danger my ds will encounter, but if something as simple as buying a safe car and using safety seats will increase his odds of survival in an accident, that's exactly what I'm going to do.

 

Ds is too old and tall for his booster seat, but I remember when he was old enough to stop using it, he was kind of sad about it, because it was very comfortable. He cheered up pretty quickly when I reminded him that the regular car seats were heated and ventilated, though, because what boy doesn't like to have more little buttons to push? ;)

 

I agree.

 

If it takes only a few seconds to make a child safer, then why not? In fact, it doesn't take any extra time at all for my child to sit in his booster instead of just on the regular seat. It takes zero time and makes him safer. Why in the world wouldn't I have him in a booster seat for literally zero inconvenience?

 

People are giving reason like "it looks funny". I don't understand. Who cares what the child looks like? And it won't "look funny" in a few years when people are used to seeing it. So how could that possibly matter?

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That's just nonsense. That's like saying if my kid dies falling out of a tree, I'm responsible for his death. Yes, I could keep him out of trees. (Well maybe I could. He can be very determined!) But at some point, kids climbing trees becomes an acceptable risk for most parents.

 

 

I have free-range kids who climb trees and range for hours alone through woodlands which belong to others but through which we have the right to roam. These are risks which are well worth running: the benefits in physical and mental health far outweigh any danger.

 

Not using a booster seat is a risk with no benefit.

 

Laura

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Erm... at least where I come from in the US riding a bike or scooters without one has been illegal for a loooong time. Since I was a kid.

 

I'm not asking from a legal viewpoint. I'm asking from a safety viewpoint. Regardless of whether it's illegal or not, I do see kids riding without helmets all the time, so apparently some parents aren't enforcing it. I see it as enforcing safety rules (non-negotiable).

 

And never mind how long it's been illegal for - I'm sure at some point when it wasn't illegal, some parents grumbled about it, just like some grumble about the booster law. Eventually it becomes commonplace and "the norm". Then no one thinks it's weird or ridiculous, because it's just what you do.

 

Growing up, we never wore seatbelts or used helmets on bikes. I remember when the seatbelt law went into effect. SO many people were incredibly mad and just "pretended" to wear the seatbelt (to avoid a ticket), which seems pretty silly to me - more effort to pretend than to actually wear the darn thing and be safer. It took a good long while before it just became the norm for everyone to wear them without question. I guess that's just the life cycle of new laws.

Edited by tammyw
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I'm not asking from a legal viewpoint. I'm asking from a safety viewpoint. Regardless of whether it's illegal or not, I do see kids riding without helmets all the time, so apparently some parents aren't enforcing it. I see it as enforcing safety rules (non-negotiable).

 

Oh, hey, I didn't notice your sigline that says you are in CA. lol

 

I do make my son wear his depending on where we are. We are lucky in that our neighborhood (and all of them here) are about 80% abandoned. There are nearly no cars and the roads are awful so if there were to be a car, they would be crawling over the potholes going very slow. Still, I make him wear his helmet. However, in our last place, we had a lot big enough for him to ride just on our lot and I didn't see it as important enforce it. I don't recall him ever not putting his helmet on, though. The kid finds safety important. :)

 

 

ETA: And I also didn't notice that you wrote *don't* and not do. The question doesn't even apply to me! I am not paying attention well today.

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People are giving reason like "it looks funny". I don't understand. Who cares what the child looks like? And it won't "look funny" in a few years when people are used to seeing it. So how could that possibly matter?

 

:iagree:

 

Where we live, it "looks funny" when we see children that are not in safety seats. I have never had anyone comment (or giggle) when they saw my ds in his booster seat -- and he was tall for his age. I am very surprised that anyone would think there was anything odd or silly about it.

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Out of curiosity, for those who don't think these kids need to be in boosters, do you insist on helmets to be worn when riding bikes or scooters?

 

Nope. But my kids don't ride motorized scooters and are not riding bikes on main roads. A couple older boys want to ride their bikes a few miles away. It makes me queasy bc walking or riding bikes on our main streets is crazy IMO. I tell them to walk instead. Possibly bc this relates to my dislike of motorcycles? Idk. I wish there was a separate bike lane. Or even a wide shouldered road. :(

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As for the "looks funny" comment. I used to be the last person around here with my kids in RF seats, so when people used to comment on it, I would briefly (and non-defensively) explain why I did it. If it made some parents reconsider their own thoughts about FF/RF, then good.

 

With boosters it will be the same. If my kid is still in a booster after the legal age, there will be a reason for it, and I will be happy to briefly explain why. Maybe then there will be one more parent who knows the actual reasons boosters aren't patently stupid.

 

FTR, my kids' boosters are not babyish-looking and they convert to backless boosters. If anyone has an attitude about the way they look, that really isn't my problem. The only thing I dislike about them is that they take up so much of the back seat.

 

I still think the law is dumb, though.

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Out of curiosity, for those who don't think these kids need to be in boosters, do you insist on helmets to be worn when riding bikes or scooters?

 

Requiring helmets for riding scooters, trikes, or sidewalk bikes is idiotic. Next they will require helmets for walking.

 

My kids do not wear helmets. When they start riding bikes on the road or if they race etc., then they will wear them.

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Requiring helmets for riding scooters, trikes, or sidewalk bikes is idiotic. Next they will require helmets for walking.

 

My kids do not wear helmets. When they start riding bikes on the road or if they race etc., then they will wear them.

 

My niece fell over on her bike when she was 8. She was not riding fast. She was not on a busy road. She hit a bump with the front tire and down she went. Her head hit the curb. The ER doctors said if not for her helmet she would very likely have had a serious head injury. You don't have to be racing or on a busy road to benefit by wearing a helmet.

 

While I grew up in pre-helmet, pre-carseat, and even pre-seatbelt days, I always wear my seatbelt and I wear a helmet even when going for a leisurely bike ride.

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My niece fell over on her bike when she was 8. She was not riding fast. She was not on a busy road. She hit a bump with the front tire and down she went. Her head hit the curb. The ER doctors said if not for her helmet she would very likely have had a serious head injury. You don't have to be racing or on a busy road to benefit by wearing a helmet.

 

While I grew up in pre-helmet, pre-carseat, and even pre-seatbelt days, I always wear my seatbelt and I wear a helmet even when going for a leisurely bike ride.

 

Absolutely agree. We live on a quiet, double cul-de-sac street, my kids are able to play with their friends safely outside and ride their bikes in front of our house (with helmets). Doesn't mean they haven't fallen off their bikes, accidentally crashed into each other, ran into a curb, etc. It happens. I'm thankful for helmets. My husband and I wear them also when riding, even though we're going on "safe" sidewalks or areas. We always had the rule you wear your helmet no matter what - it becomes so natural you don't even question it.

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Interesting thread. I had my newly 8 year old stop using a booster just a week ago. I've been waiting awhile to move him out of his booster seat because I was concerned about his safety. According to the law here he had to use a booster until age 8. He has had a hard time fitting into his backless booster seat for awhile now. He used to have a booster with a back, but when we transferred to a different vehicle those seats didn't fit well. My son is big for his age in height and weight. I read over the 5 point test and looked to see how he did when he got into the car today. The seatbelts are adjustable so it fit great when it was set to the lowest height and he was able to sit all the way back, bend his knees at the edge of his seat, and his feet touched the floor. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel my son is safer out of his booster seat.

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My niece fell over on her bike when she was 8. She was not riding fast. She was not on a busy road. She hit a bump with the front tire and down she went. Her head hit the curb. The ER doctors said if not for her helmet she would very likely have had a serious head injury. You don't have to be racing or on a busy road to benefit by wearing a helmet.

 

While I grew up in pre-helmet, pre-carseat, and even pre-seatbelt days, I always wear my seatbelt and I wear a helmet even when going for a leisurely bike ride.

 

:001_huh: I have a sunken living room. I can't count how often the kids have been running around and tripped in the tile step and hit it with various limbs, including their head. My just learning to walk but trying to run infants and toddlers have all bashed their head on the tile or rock fireplace at some point. Every person in this house has stumbled at least part way down our stairs going up or down our 2 story home at some point. My 3 year old once fell all the way down when she was 2. (Even tho she just cried for a minute, that still added a whole clump of white hair to my head!)

 

My sil's 10 month old son died many years ago when he was toddling in her living room and hit the corner of the coffee table with his head. He died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

 

Yet I don't make my kids wear helmets in the house. I don't retell this and lecture people with coffee tables and children under the age of 3. And I have no plans to move anytime soon and I would consider a 2 story again if it met all our other family needs as this house does.

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:001_huh: I have a sunken living room. I can't count how often the kids have been running around and tripped in the tile step and hit it with various limbs, including their head. My just learning to walk but trying to run infants and toddlers have all bashed their head on the tile or rock fireplace at some point. Every person in this house has stumbled at least part way down our stairs going up or down our 2 story home at some point. My 3 year old once fell all the way down when she was 2. (Even tho she just cried for a minute, that still added a whole clump of white hair to my head!)

 

My sil's 10 month old son died many years ago when he was toddling in her living room and hit the corner of the coffee table with his head. He died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

 

Yet I don't make my kids wear helmets in the house. I don't retell this and lecture people with coffee tables and children under the age of 3. And I have no plans to move anytime soon and I would consider a 2 story again if it met all our other family needs as this house does.

 

It's not practical to wear a helmet all the time. It *is* practical to wear a helmet on a bike.

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My niece fell over on her bike when she was 8. She was not riding fast. She was not on a busy road. She hit a bump with the front tire and down she went. Her head hit the curb. The ER doctors said if not for her helmet she would very likely have had a serious head injury. You don't have to be racing or on a busy road to benefit by wearing a helmet.

 

While I grew up in pre-helmet, pre-carseat, and even pre-seatbelt days, I always wear my seatbelt and I wear a helmet even when going for a leisurely bike ride.

 

I did the exact same thing (including clunking my head on a cement step) when I was 8, except that I was not wearing a helmet. I did not receive a serious injury. I didn't even go to the doctor over it. I just continued about my day. Hmm, I wonder if NOT wearing a helmet made me more aware and more in touch with my basic instincts?

 

When it comes to trikes, sidewalk bikes, and the like, where the fall involves relatively low speed and distance, I would rather my kids experience the logical results of their mistakes and thereby learn most efficiently from them, hence reducing the risks of worse falls down the line.

 

Also, my sister is a bike fiend and she says that helmets actually make certain kinds of falls more dangerous. I have heard this in other places, too. So I'd research this before sending my kid out with a "required" helmet on her head.

 

FTR, the only time either of my kids got a doctor-worthy injury was when my then-3yo was walking on a flat, unobstructed floor and somehow fell and hit her head on a bench. Statistically, the majority of child injuries (outside of car-related injuries) occur in the home in connection with everyday stuff that is not regulated. I personally think they regulate helmets "because they can" - i.e., we ride bikes in public - though this really doesn't make a dent in injuries of young kids.

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You don't have to be racing or on a busy road to benefit by wearing a helmet.
:iagree: Taking into consideration the added momentum from riding a bike a head injury can be serious business. We had a foolish girl on one of our bikes who disregarded my instruction to wear a helmet (she didn't think helmets looked "cool"). Bike skidded, she went over the handlebars, bike came down on her head, she ended up in the E.R. for stitches she would not have needed had she worn the helmet! But hey, a shaved scalp and staples made her look so much more "cool". :glare:

 

IMO, there are many things I cannot prevent from happening to my dc. I will do what I can to protect them (helmets, extended carseat use) because really it is so easy to do so and I prefer the added protection to the potential consequences of foregoing such measures.

 

ftr: I put padded protectors on our fireplace and coffeetables. My toddler may not die from hitting unprotected edges yet the bill for stitches would be a lot more than purchasing the "bumpers". Bumpers help us avoid having to use helmets while in the house. :D ;)

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It's not practical to wear a helmet all the time. It *is* practical to wear a helmet on a bike.

 

My then-3yr-old fell on the cement floor while playing and had a concussion. I made him wear a helmet every day for a few weeks at home and while out. It was well worth the piece of mind. I don't care if he looked funny.

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It's not practical to wear a helmet all the time. It *is* practical to wear a helmet on a bike.

 

My kids wear helmets on the scooter and on bikes. Always. Even if its just the backyard. I remember when I was teaching middle school, a local twelve year old girl was riding to a friend's house (a route that she took nearly every day) and hit a fence post. She wasn't wearing a helmet, and died from traumatic brain injury.

 

 

I don't bubble wrap my kids. We hike switchbacks in the mountains, play on boogie boards at the beach and jump from rope swings into swim holes. We're taking the kids skiing next month. However, I believe in taking reasonable precautions. A $50 booster seat that takes no extra effort to buckle and a $20 helmet that takes an extra 10 seconds to put on and take off are "reasonable" precautions.

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