Saved: You are because of how you think/believe or You are because of what you do?

[ma23peas]

I agree whole heartedly, reading the OP's examples she is caught in trying to define with certainty who is saved, who is not, what role works and grace play in this...my first kneejerk is to encourage you to pray to God for the answers, rest in the fact that no man has the understanding of God's thinking down to an assurety, but God does, He only wants first your commitment to believe in the Son and all that was done for our sins, then He wants you to trust in Him, not the interpretations of man...let Him give you the answers you seek.

[mommyrooch]

So, now you have it. The whole reason why I put up this thread. I really dislike the whole grace alone idea. I also dislike the whole chosen by God idea. I think we people need to take ownership of our choices and decisions. We choose to follow Christ or not to with our actions. I believe our hearts and our minds are revealed by our actions. Our actions show ourselves and others what's really going on in our hearts and minds. I do not believe that what you "believe in your heart" can actually do anything to change how God looks at you. I believe that He looks at you with love - unfathomable love - no matter what you think or believe in your heart. What changes your salvation status or motion whether it's stagnant or moving toward God is how one responds to the Gospel. If one responds with obedience to what Jesus said he or she is going in the right direction. If one ignores or does the opposite of what Jesus said then one is stagnant or walking away. Every day we are either walking toward Christ, standing still, or walking away. It's a choice we have and it takes everything we have to make that movement happen. Now, when we move toward Christ I believe He helps us, and it's a mutual relationship. Our efforts are necessary, but not the cause for pride or boasting because whatever progress we can make is by the grace of God. I do believe in grace, but not grace alone.

 

Yes! Yes! and Yes!!!! You pretty much summed up what I believe as well.

 

Obviously, my thoughts are how I feel today, and I may change my mind as I learn more and read the Gospels more. So, I reserve the right to change my mind. I'm learning and unlearning. God help me.

 

Me too. I am ever growing and changing. I am certain that there is a lot more that I still don't understand. May God help me too.

[JenniferB]

I believe that God will ultimately judge us based on our hearts.

 

Then there's the sticky situation where someone had good intentions in his or her heart, but broke the law and did bad things in order to set things right and accomplish the good intentions of his heart. The mind plays devious tricks on us if we are not careful. What seems in the heart like good intentions and pure motives can be cunningly evil, and it's usually, true not always, the outward actions that reveal what's really going on in there.

[JenniferB]

she is caught in trying to define with certainty who is saved, who is not

 

No, I'm not actually trying to do this. I'm wrestling with ideas and going through a mind/heart/practice shift right now. It's a big shift, and I'm wrestling through it, while also going through hard times at the hand of those who profess "grace alone." That's what I'm doing here.

[mommyrooch]

Then there's the sticky situation where someone had good intentions in his or her heart, but broke the law and did bad things in order to set things right and accomplish the good intentions of his heart. The mind plays devious tricks on us if we are not careful. What seems in the heart like good intentions and pure motives can be cunningly evil, and it's usually, true not always, the outward actions that reveal what's really going on in there.

 

:iagree: It is a slippery slope. That is why I think God looks at the whole picture. I think that he weighs both our hearts and our actions.

 

Truth be told, more often than not, what is in our hearts will show up in our actions. We must find the balance between the two so that ultimately the results manifest as good. I think that is where the whole "faith without works is dead" come in. It we try to live our lives with just faith alone we will fall short of God's glory. We will also fall short if we rely on works alone. Both are necessary in order to ultimately gain favor with God.

[LMD]

It is not a popular notion but I also think there will be people that inherit the kingdom who have never "literally been saved."

 

For example, take an impoverished mother living in a third world country. She has lived her life of love and compassion. She has honored life and fought to protect it. She has loved her children without ceasing. She has sacrificed for her fellow man. Yet, she never got the chance to "literally" know God. She was never taught about him and never got to accept him.

 

I do NOT believe that mother is going to hell!!! I cannot worship a God that would condemn someone based on their inability to know him. I don't think God will condemn her any more that I think he would condemn a mentally handicapped person whom cannot comprehend at a level necessary to "literally" make that choice.

 

Just like the liar and the murderer above, I believe that God will ultimately judge us based on our hearts. God will know that if that mother had been fortunate enough to "know" him personally, she would have given her life to him. In fact, I believe that she did know him and had him with her. She just couldn't identify him because she wasn't given the chance to learn who he was.

 

The Bible says that EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess. I do believe that we will all ultimately have to either accept of reject God. I just believe that if we aren't given that chance here on Earth then we will be given the chance in Heaven. Otherwise, there would be many souls being condemned to hell simply because they were not fortunate enough to personally "know" God. At least according to how most Christians define "knowing."

 

I define knowing God as a person who's hearts and souls are filled with love, compassion, kindness, lack of pride, hated for evil, loathing for violence. A person who's heart does possess the love of God. They just don't know they do and can't literally define it.

 

On the other hand though, if a person does know about God and deliberately rejects or denies him then I believe they will be condemned for that.

 

Like I said, probably not a popular view. I'm sure I'll probably get reamed for it. No tomatoes my way please. :D I realize many will disagree. I just think that it's helpful to hear all views. For those trying to figure this out (which honestly is all of us) I think that it helps to understand that this (i.e salvation) is ultimately a personal walk we are walking and we must find the way that God has planned for us.

 

I can see your reasoning, but I do believe there is one missing thing here, that ALL fall short, ALL sin - even our wonderful 3rd world mother. She does need a Saviour like everyone else, otherwise everyone could thoeretically work hard to be as good as her and we'd have no need for Jesus. Now, I believe that God would reveal himself to her in her heart - she might not know the 'right' words or names or history, but she knows there is a God (revealed through nature 'Heavens Declare...') who loves her. God is not bound by geography or ignorance!

[SnowWhite]

Oh yes!!! Discuss, discuss... :D

 

Also, is it dangerous for society or for Christian communities to have a "faith alone" "grace alone" stance on salvation? If so, have you seen the dangers of this view play out before your very eyes in your Christian community?

 

I just want to say again, stupid poll :banghead: - it did not accomplish what I wanted it to! Yet...there's still hope, the thread is not dead yet.

 

 

I think what you are asking is, "What erroneous views of salvation could cause someone to end up in Hell?"

 

Is it our correct belief in Salvation that saves us? Is it possible to have an incorrect view of Salvation and still experience salvation?

 

I would be very curious about peoples thoughts on those questions. :001_smile:

 

To this I would say- any erroneous view of salvation which caused one NOT to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," not to "Repent ye therefore and be baptized". If for example, the Amish folk I grew up with are trusting in the church and its regulations to save them (I do not say they do, or that they all do), then that faith is misplaced.

 

 

To the second question, it is possible to have the CORRECT belief about how salvation works and refuse to put it in practice. A very close individual has decided that salvation and its requirements "are not his true self" and to "be true to himself" he has left his wife and children and within one month taken another woman. He's breaking one of the ten commandments, running roughshod over the Lord's teaching regarding marriage, and IMO risking his eternal destination over "being his true self." It's not that he does not believe with all his heart that Jesus gave His life to save him, it's that he's not believing ON Jesus' word, repenting and living for Christ. (According to this definition of repentance)

(3) the cognate noun _metanoia_, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised.

 

 

I am still trying to understand how all this works, and for a while I thought I could not answer the poll, but once I saw that it said doing the things necessary "From God's perspective" then I realized that just believing the TRUTH is not enough, one must believe ON Jesus for salvation, and that includes the repentance defined above and its commensurate change of mind and purpose and life.

[MrsMe]

I can see your reasoning, but I do believe there is one missing thing here, that ALL fall short, ALL sin - even our wonderful 3rd world mother. She does need a Saviour like everyone else, otherwise everyone could thoeretically work hard to be as good as her and we'd have no need for Jesus. Now, I believe that God would reveal himself to her in her heart - she might not know the 'right' words or names or history, but she knows there is a God (revealed through nature 'Heavens Declare...') who loves her. God is not bound by geography or ignorance!

 

This is so excellent!

[mommyrooch]

I can see your reasoning, but I do believe there is one missing thing here, that ALL fall short, ALL sin - even our wonderful 3rd world mother. She does need a Saviour like everyone else, otherwise everyone could thoeretically work hard to be as good as her and we'd have no need for Jesus. Now, I believe that God would reveal himself to her in her heart - she might not know the 'right' words or names or history, but she knows there is a God (revealed through nature 'Heavens Declare...') who loves her. God is not bound by geography or ignorance!

 

Yes! This is the point I was making. In fact I pretty much said the same thing. Just a little differently. ;) I agree 100% that we ALL need a savior and that ALL fall short. That was the whole point in Jesus's sacrifice. I don't think there's any way any Christian could miss that part. That is the one thing I'm pretty certain we all agree with.

 

The only point I was making is that many Christians are quick to judge that another isn't saved or define being saved according to some words that are said or some ritual performed. I think that it is possible that many are in fact saved (like the 3rd world mother). They just don't realize they are and they can't define it. Yet, in the eyes of many Christians, they are not saved because they have not made a public profession of faith.

 

I think with that reasoning we are severely limiting God. I believe that it is possible that God can reveal himself to ANYONE!! Whether they've "officially" heard the word or not. God can and does still live within people like that.

[Lovedtodeath]

Lovedtodeath, I can't figure out what version of the Bible you are using for your prooftexts. Are you using different versions for different verses?

Yes. The New American Standard Bible is usually what I use for prooftexts. I most often use the NKJV adn the Amplified for my personal study, and I most recently posted verses from the Living Bible (The New American Bible, a Catholic version I picked up, will usually read similarly, but I don't have those verses available on my computer).

Edited December 16, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Avila]

I think this topic could fall under doctrinal, because the Bible does command it. I was baptized and wished to be, but the bible doesn't command it and using your argument, yes at what point would you consider certain things optional. I would assume one would want to. :tongue_smilie:

 

Actually, there are Bible verses that tell us to be baptized. (I can't tell if you think it does or doesn't because the quote contradicts. If you fix yours, I will try to fix this one to match it.)

 

Mat. 28:19. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

Acts 2:38. Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins ..."

 

John 3:5. Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

Edited December 16, 2011 by Asenik

[MrsMe]

Actually, the Bible does tell us to be baptized. (I can't tell if you think it does or doesn't because the quote contradicts. If you fix yours, I will try to fix this one to match it.)

 

Mat. 28:19. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

Acts 2:38. Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins ..."

 

John 3:5. Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

 

See in John 3:5, however, with the first two and using all these verses as a whole, I may say that water could represent the cleansing of God's Holy Spirit.

 

Titus 3:5: "he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit." In this water could mean physical birth (water).

 

I think baptizing is a symbol and willingness to follow God, but it's not something you need to get to heaven. He "washed" away our sins when we came to Christ through faith, (after faith and repentence), not by being baptized.

 

God told his disciples to go and baptize, but I don't think that it is commanded as a prerequisite to get to heaven, which is my point.

 

Interesting subject though and agree with the contradiction....requires some thought. :)

Edited December 16, 2011 by alilac

[simka2]

I should really stay out of this because it is a classic case of "I do not believe in the God you do not believe in either."

 

The Orthodox believe there are two kinds of things in this world "created things and uncreated things." There is only one uncreated thing that is God. One of the things that is created is time. It does not matter if Jesus comes before, after or during someones life time. God is not subject to time.

 

What knowledge? Abraham did not know what the plan was. He just knew he was to be the father of a people that would bless the whole world.

 

Where is the evidence? I do not even know what that means in this context. Do you want me to go and proof text the Bible for you? The Bible is not a science book.

 

Justified and saved are not the same thing. Salvation comes when Christ goes into the tomb and brakes its bonds to free the captives or at the judgement day. It is something God does.

The bolded has been the biggest paradim shift for me. Salvation not being something "I" do, while AT THE SAME TIME not being a change in God towards me, because He does not change.

 

Edited: I like the gift exchange model. I give God myself and He gives me Himself.

Edited December 16, 2011 by simka2

[KatieH]

So let me get this straight--as long as you believe the right things, you can *behave* in evil ways and it's all good salvation-wise?

 

Maybe that explains the state of the world.

 

I very vividly remember listening to a preacher on the radio screaming about how he could sin as much as he wanted, lie, rape, murder, steal, etc, and he was still going to Heaven because he had accepted Jesus as his "personal Savior." Crap like that is one of the reasons I was an atheist for so long.

 

(To be fair, I don't think he was saying it was GOOD to sin, I think he was trying to illustrate how powerful his idea of salvation was, but still. Yuck.)

[Avila]

See in John 3:5, however, with the first two and using all these verses as a whole, I may say that water could represent the cleansing of God's Holy Spirit.

 

Titus 3:5: "he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit." In this water could mean physical birth (water).

 

I think baptizing is a symbol and willingness to follow God, but it's not something you need to get to heaven. He "washed" away our sins when we came to Christ through faith, (after faith and repentence), not by being baptized.

 

God told his disciples to go and baptize, but I don't think that it is commanded as a prerequisite to get to heaven, which is my point.

 

Interesting subject though and agree with the contradiction....requires some thought. :)

 

For Titus 3:5:

 

...he saved us by the bath of rebirth (NAB)

...he saved us by the laver of regeneration (Douay-Rheims)

...Washing of regeneration (RSV and KJV)

...washing of rebirth (NIV)

 

It doesn't seem, to me, to be talking about physical birth. These all, to me, seem to be referencing baptism.

 

I know there is no general agreement among Christians today on what baptism does, but the Bible does say repeatedly that we are to repent and be baptized.

 

It is a lot to think about. It has been nice discussing it all with you in a respectful way too. :). Thanks for explaining your POV.

[MrsMe]

For Titus 3:5:

 

...he saved us by the bath of rebirth (NAB)

...he saved us by the laver of regeneration (Douay-Rheims)

...Washing of regeneration (RSV and KJV)

...washing of rebirth (NIV)

 

It doesn't seem, to me, to be talking about physical birth. These all, to me, seem to be referencing baptism.

 

I know there is no general agreement among Christians today on what baptism does, but the Bible does say repeatedly that we are to repent and be baptized.

 

It is a lot to think about. It has been nice discussing it all with you in a respectful way too. :). Thanks for explaining your POV.

 

LOL...I see it saying rebirth is the bath. Not the bath being the rebirth.:tongue_smilie: I have NASB. Well, and I have NLT, NIV, KJV...:lol: Either way, my "i's" are dotted and my "t's" are crossed - I have been baptized. LOL... (and don't read more into that statement than what's there. ;))

 

I found this thread to be an extremely interesting discussion as well. But I really, really need to go and do my chores. :tongue_smilie: Really.

[MrsMe]

I very vividly remember listening to a preacher on the radio screaming about how he could sin as much as he wanted, lie, rape, murder, steal, etc, and he was still going to Heaven because he had accepted Jesus as his "personal Savior." Crap like that is one of the reasons I was an atheist for so long.

 

(To be fair, I don't think he was saying it was GOOD to sin, I think he was trying to illustrate how powerful his idea of salvation was, but still. Yuck.)

 

Even so it's untrue. Ugh....total cr*p. When you find a loon, it's time to look elsewhere, not elsewhere than Jesus and God, but physically, a different preacher.

 

Now I'm going to do my chores. :tongue_smilie:

[Lovedtodeath]

I just think that it's helpful to hear all views. For those trying to figure this out (which honestly is all of us) I think that it helps to understand that this (i.e salvation) is ultimately a personal walk we are walking and we must find the way that God has planned for us.

:iagree:John 21:21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” 22 Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

 

 

 

I agree whole heartedly, reading the OP's examples she is caught in trying to define with certainty who is saved, who is not, what role works and grace play in this...my first kneejerk is to encourage you to pray to God for the answers, rest in the fact that no man has the understanding of God's thinking down to an assurety, but God does, He only wants first your commitment to believe in the Son and all that was done for our sins, then He wants you to trust in Him, not the interpretations of man...let Him give you the answers you seek.

Amen!

Truth be told, more often than not, what is in our hearts will show up in our actions.

This.

 

I give God myself and He gives me Himself.

Yes. So beautifully put.

[Lovedtodeath]

I do NOT believe that mother is going to hell!!! I cannot worship a God that would condemn someone based on their inability to know him. I don't think God will condemn her any more that I think he would condemn a mentally handicapped person whom cannot comprehend at a level necessary to "literally" make that choice.

 

Just like the liar and the murderer above, I believe that God will ultimately judge us based on our hearts. God will know that if that mother had been fortunate enough to "know" him personally, she would have given her life to him. In fact, I believe that she did know him and had him with her. She just couldn't identify him because she wasn't given the chance to learn who he was.

:iagree:Luke 12:42-48 Notice that there are not only 2 groups of people here, but 4. That third world mother does not fit into the same group as the evil slave.

 

Also, if you read about the bowls of wrath being poured out in Revelation, there are repeated chances to repent.

[KathyBC]

Heather in NC explained her context in her reply here. She calls the view that someone would go to hell for celebrating Christmas erroneous. But, then here she says that this woman would not go to hell for an erroneous view of salvation, though she said in my original quote that one could go to hell for an erroneous view of salvation. I still don't know what she meant. But, oh well, I don't have to understand her view.

 

The point of my post and poll is to try to understand and to provoke a conversation about what people think the catalyst to salvation is. Is it a right view, or is it right practices? Sure, there are other ideas about salvation, but I'm interested in knowing what people think about these two ideas. I admit, I didn't word the poll just right, and so I failed in that. I tried to clarify that I'm interested in what people think the catalyst to salvation is. Some think salvation happens in an instant, a point in time, and some think it's a process. But something has to get it all started. Is it the right belief that gets it going, or a move in the right direction that gets it all going? Does your right belief actually change the way God looks at you, and therefore He gives you His Spirit so that you can live the rest of your life "saved" or "being saved," or does your move in the right direction, say getting baptised, and entering into the Church change *you,* and therefore you can now move in the right direction with God's grace and live the rest of your life with His Spirit and doing good works? Does what you think in your head and believe in your heart actually change the status you have with God?

 

You asked me if I have any concrete examples of the dangers of living under "grace alone." H-E-double hockey sticks, yes! This idea is so dangerous, in my opinion. I used to know someone, a very close friend, a deacon of the church, and a man who would teach classes in Sunday School who professed "grace alone" and who also professed the "chosen by God" idea, who divorced the wife of his youth and left her with 3 very young adopted children, one with special needs in exchange for a younger live-in woman with no children. These were very close friends of ours who came to our home fellowship group for years. Just before he began the divorce process I distinctly remember sitting at my dinning room table and he said to me, "it doesn't really matter what we do, we are either chosen or not chosen and there's nothing we can do about that." After this man did this to his wife and kids, he went merrily along his way attending a different church.

 

I have another very long story, which involves myself being spied upon, talked about behind my back, and plotted against in order to separate myself from my best friend because of my "different" views about salvation and my bad influence on my friend. These people profess "faith alone" and "grace alone" and they often put their "grace alone" messages up on Facebook. Anything other than "grace alone" is unacceptable to them, and anyone who might influence another in a different direction must be put out from among them. That happened to be me.

 

So, now you have it. The whole reason why I put up this thread. I really dislike the whole grace alone idea. I also dislike the whole chosen by God idea. I think we people need to take ownership of our choices and decisions. We choose to follow Christ or not to with our actions. I believe our hearts and our minds are revealed by our actions. Our actions show ourselves and others what's really going on in our hearts and minds. I do not believe that what you "believe in your heart" can actually do anything to change how God looks at you. I believe that He looks at you with love - unfathomable love - no matter what you think or believe in your heart. What changes your salvation status or motion whether it's stagnant or moving toward God is how one responds to the Gospel. If one responds with obedience to what Jesus said he or she is going in the right direction. If one ignores or does the opposite of what Jesus said then one is stagnant or walking away. Every day we are either walking toward Christ, standing still, or walking away. It's a choice we have and it takes everything we have to make that movement happen. Now, when we move toward Christ I believe He helps us, and it's a mutual relationship. Our efforts are necessary, but not the cause for pride or boasting because whatever progress we can make is by the grace of God. I do believe in grace, but not grace alone.

 

Obviously, my thoughts are how I feel today, and I may change my mind as I learn more and read the Gospels more. So, I reserve the right to change my mind. I'm learning and unlearning. God help me.

 

Taking Heather's short, facile statement so literally makes a poor segue to your issue, IMO. But she did a fine job expanding on her original post, so if you still don't understand what she meant there's no point in me belabouring the point.

 

As for your concrete example. Well. It sounds like a painful situation, to watch someone so close do something that would seem to be so out of character. Watching him lie to himself, while hurting other people and ultimately doing something that will be self-destructive, would be cause for reflection, for sure. But swinging from one extreme to another won't prevent future acts of self-deception by other believers. Do people who base their faith on their actions not sin? It didn't stop King David. It didn't mean he wasn't saved, either. The rich young ruler asked how he could enter the kingdom of heaven. Christ told him to give everything he had to the poor. He couldn't do it. Can you? I can't. I can't save myself any more than he could.

 

I saw a nice quote the other day:

"Martin Luther said that humanity is like a drunk guy who gets onto a horse and falls off one side, then climbs back on and falls off the other side. In other words, we tend to go too far in one direction and if we don’t like that, too far in the other."

 

Really, I don't think this situation has anything to do with belief vs. actions, as if they should ever oppose each other. People sin. Sometimes they can't even help themselves. It's frightening to think we might do something similar. But I don't know if overthinking things helps. I think we just need to hold on.

 

Don't let go. That's it.

 

Okay, I'm done with unintellectual ramblings now.

[JenniferB]

Do people who base their faith on their actions not sin? It didn't stop King David. The rich young ruler asked how he could enter the kingdom of heaven. Christ told him to give everything he had to the poor. He couldn't do it. Can you?

 

David sinned, and David repented. That is the pattern we should follow. I can think of a few examples in Christian history when a very rich person gave away everything, and dedicated themselves to the service of God. Their lives are an example to me. I look to them as worthy of emulation, though I fall woefully short, to say the least.

 

Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven is like merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who when he found a pearl of great price, went and sold everything he had and bought that pearl.

[KathyBC]

Yup. And there's no guarantee your former friend won't repent at some point, either.

[JenniferB]

Yup. And there's no guarantee your former friend won't repent at some point, either.

 

I'm not trying to get the last word, but I just need to say I want him to repent. Lord have mercy on us all.

[kolamum]

I didn't vote for either.

 

1. Is too open ended and what one may feel is the true and right way might not be for someone else.

 

2. Is saying that good works get you to heaven. That's like saying all roads lead you to one specific place and that's not possible.

 

By grace are you saved through faith... In otherwords, God will willingly bestow his faith upon anyone who has the faith to believe & ask Him. It's that simple.

 

From there I can choose to live a Christ like life and grow in my faith and spiritual life, or I can choose to keep on keeping on and have a very dead spiritual life.. either way God won't take back that grace that He bestowed upon me. Think of it as your "Forever Family". Adoption is forever, I've been adopted into the family of God and I'm there forever. :D

[Lovedtodeath]

I just thought of this: Trusting in Jesus Christ for everything is something you do.

[JenC3]

I only read through the first few pages...

 

I believe God's Grace has saved me. I believe in the Gospel, that Jesus Christ is Lord/God. My response to this knowledge/fact is to "try" and bury my sinful human self and become more like Christ, to do good works in His name and to teach my children to know God and serve others. To edify my fellow man, to care for the poor, widows and orphans, these are the acts that Jesus taught, but if I do these things without seeking to know God, believe in him, even in my darkest hour, and also remembering Him in my brightest than I am lost.

[AmericanMom]

I just thought of this: Trusting in Jesus Christ for everything is something you do.

:iagree:

 

And also, see pretty much the entire 25th chapter of the book of Matthew.

 

Jesus redeemed mankind once and for all. He said it was finished. This wasn't because of things we do or think, but because of His great mercy. But He is pretty clear that if we have accepted His gift of salvation (more than a change in thinking, a determination of the will -- "then come and follow Me"), we will be doing certain things. And our actions will ultimately reveal whether we have accepted Him or not. Not that it's anyone else's business, we are not to judge the state of another's soul. Only God knows what people are going through on the inside, and he will judge fairly, according to His loving and all-encompassing mercy. But faith and works cannot be separated. At. All. (IMHO, of course!)

 

As an aside, much of this discussion is semantics. I don't think most of the people who are proposing the first option think it is really all about what you think. Neither do I think most of the people voting for the second option think that we can earn salvation by our actions. I think there are some differences, but I think a lot of the people here are "violently agreeing" with each other.

[Heidi]

Heather in NC explained her context in her reply here. She calls the view that someone would go to hell for celebrating Christmas erroneous. But, then here she says that this woman would not go to hell for an erroneous view of salvation, though she said in my original quote that one could go to hell for an erroneous view of salvation. I still don't know what she meant. But, oh well, I don't have to understand her view.

 

The point of my post and poll is to try to understand and to provoke a conversation about what people think the catalyst to salvation is. Is it a right view, or is it right practices? Sure, there are other ideas about salvation, but I'm interested in knowing what people think about these two ideas. I admit, I didn't word the poll just right, and so I failed in that. I tried to clarify that I'm interested in what people think the catalyst to salvation is. Some think salvation happens in an instant, a point in time, and some think it's a process. But something has to get it all started. Is it the right belief that gets it going, or a move in the right direction that gets it all going? Does your right belief actually change the way God looks at you, and therefore He gives you His Spirit so that you can live the rest of your life "saved" or "being saved," or does your move in the right direction, say getting baptised, and entering into the Church change *you,* and therefore you can now move in the right direction with God's grace and live the rest of your life with His Spirit and doing good works? Does what you think in your head and believe in your heart actually change the status you have with God?

 

You asked me if I have any concrete examples of the dangers of living under "grace alone." H-E-double hockey sticks, yes! This idea is so dangerous, in my opinion. I used to know someone, a very close friend, a deacon of the church, and a man who would teach classes in Sunday School who professed "grace alone" and who also professed the "chosen by God" idea, who divorced the wife of his youth and left her with 3 very young adopted children, one with special needs in exchange for a younger live-in woman with no children. These were very close friends of ours who came to our home fellowship group for years. Just before he began the divorce process I distinctly remember sitting at my dinning room table and he said to me, "it doesn't really matter what we do, we are either chosen or not chosen and there's nothing we can do about that." After this man did this to his wife and kids, he went merrily along his way attending a different church.

 

I have another very long story, which involves myself being spied upon, talked about behind my back, and plotted against in order to separate myself from my best friend because of my "different" views about salvation and my bad influence on my friend. These people profess "faith alone" and "grace alone" and they often put their "grace alone" messages up on Facebook. Anything other than "grace alone" is unacceptable to them, and anyone who might influence another in a different direction must be put out from among them. That happened to be me.

 

So, now you have it. The whole reason why I put up this thread. I really dislike the whole grace alone idea. I also dislike the whole chosen by God idea. I think we people need to take ownership of our choices and decisions. We choose to follow Christ or not to with our actions. I believe our hearts and our minds are revealed by our actions. Our actions show ourselves and others what's really going on in our hearts and minds. I do not believe that what you "believe in your heart" can actually do anything to change how God looks at you. I believe that He looks at you with love - unfathomable love - no matter what you think or believe in your heart. What changes your salvation status or motion whether it's stagnant or moving toward God is how one responds to the Gospel. If one responds with obedience to what Jesus said he or she is going in the right direction. If one ignores or does the opposite of what Jesus said then one is stagnant or walking away. Every day we are either walking toward Christ, standing still, or walking away. It's a choice we have and it takes everything we have to make that movement happen. Now, when we move toward Christ I believe He helps us, and it's a mutual relationship. Our efforts are necessary, but not the cause for pride or boasting because whatever progress we can make is by the grace of God. I do believe in grace, but not grace alone.

 

Obviously, my thoughts are how I feel today, and I may change my mind as I learn more and read the Gospels more. So, I reserve the right to change my mind. I'm learning and;) unlearning. God help me.

 

I think you've got it right.

 

I see the grace alone message a lot on church signs and assume it must be good for business.

[OnTheBrink]

So let me get this straight--as long as you believe the right things, you can *behave* in evil ways and it's all good salvation-wise?

 

Maybe that explains the state of the world.

 

Absolutely not! Only God knows your heart. God knows what you believe. He knows whether you are truly born-again, and are really repentant. These people can fool man, but not God and are not truly believers.

 

If you believe in Jesus, you don't do what you feel like... on purpose, because you think you received a "get out of jail free" card. As a believer you truly repent and ask forgiveness on a regular basis because the sin you do makes you sick. Then you thank God for Jesus! Pray, pray, pray!

 

 

But yes, it could explain the state of the world because of this error in thought.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I very vividly remember listening to a preacher on the radio screaming about how he could sin as much as he wanted, lie, rape, murder, steal, etc, and he was still going to Heaven because he had accepted Jesus as his "personal Savior." Crap like that is one of the reasons I was an atheist for so long.

 

(To be fair, I don't think he was saying it was GOOD to sin, I think he was trying to illustrate how powerful his idea of salvation was, but still. Yuck.)

 

Ugh. That makes me want to choke someone (and then I'll repent! ;) ). Salvation is NOT a "get out of jail free" card. That is such skewed thinking!

[Lacie]

I know that I am saved because I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. That the Bible is the word of God. And I have followed all the instructions given in the New Testament to obtain salvation. I will continue to follow the instructions in the New Testament to the best of my ability and know that God will forgive me for falling short of His will if I ask Him.

 

God offers salvation to all people, but it is up to us to follow His will to obtain that salvation.

 

I didn't vote in the poll.

[Marylou]

That's what I'm thinking.

 

I'm not religious, but when I see people who are motivated by their beliefs to perform kindnesses, feed the hungry, teach the illiterate to read, or any of thousands of other loving acts I have to respect that, and acknowledge these people have tried to make this world a better place.

 

When good works seem almost condemned as "insufficient for salvation" and "by faith alone" becomes the credo, not so much.

 

Bill

 

 

 

You probably know this, but millions of Christians believe good works are the "thank you" to God for the "by faith alone" salvation He supplies.

 

I'm not Lutheran, but this sermon talks about that kind of thanks.

 

(And it sounds like there are iPads in heaven :001_smile:)

 

Sermon entitled, Thank you, Lord, for Grace, Faith, and Good Works.

 

I didn't vote.

Edited December 20, 2011 by dmmosher

[Lovedtodeath]

Here are a couple of proof-texts for you to show those who use the teaching of grace alone and/or OSAS as an excuse:

 

John 2:23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing. 24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,

 

Luke 6: 46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47“Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49“But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.â€

[Lovedtodeath]

People who fall away aren't "truly" saved. (I'm sure someone will find that verse for me.)

1 John 2:19

[Mommyfaithe]

I couldn't really answer the poll because for me, as a Catholic, they both go together.

 

For me as a Messianic Jew, they go together as well. Faith without works is dead. However, grace and forgiveness are free. Not really contradictory, but rather complimentary. You know, they are known by their fruit...etc.

Faithe

[tntgoodwin]

I didn't vote for either choice - ultimately I am only saved through Jesus Christ and His mercy - any good works I may do are because of the grace of God enabling me to do them. But even then, those good works do not merit me anything, they are a way I can become more like Christ and then more in union with Him (such a slow process for me!)

 

 

:iagree:

[silliness7]

If Jesus saves us by His mercy, and I believe He does, then my question really is about when does he determine to have mercy or not to have mercy? Is it when someone thinks and believes correctly about him and what he did? Or is it when someone does the things He said to do?

 

He determined that before the beginning of the world and it has nothing to do with what you think or what you do.

[creekland]

I believe one is saved based upon belief, and proof of that salvation (to us humans) is shown by a changed life thereafter (not meaning one needs to be perfect, but working on it). Without one or the other, it salvation either didn't happen or isn't real (Faith without works is dead).

[Annabel Lee]

A few days back in this post I commented on a statement made by Heather in NC in which she said, "An erroneous view of salvation and you could end up in hell." I think about this take on salvation a lot, well because I used to have this take on salvation. Now, I'm kind of discovering what my view on salvation is. I can't really put it into words, but I do know that my new view of who will partake in salvation is not limited to what a person thinks about God or how he works among people. My thoughts are constantly changing and evolving on the matter, hopefully moving more and more toward the truth. I have much to learn, or maybe more accurately stated, I have much to unlearn, does that mean during this process and until I "get there" I'm not saved? What I wonder is, how can something that takes place in your mind, thoughts, save you? I'm starting to think that it has more to do with what you do. [Ducking out now to post the poll and dodge the projectiles heading my way.] Before I duck out completely, would it be possible to discuss this without hurling a bunch of Bible verses back and forth, prooftexts, etc.? I'm interested in thoughtful discussion, not prooftexts. I'm familiar - very familiar - with all the prooftexts.

 

As for the catalyst to salvation - At this point in time and in my understanding, I think God has been waiting and the person responds to that; it is us reaching out to Him after we submit to the "pull" of the Spirit. He pursues us. He is also omniscient, so in some way I think He might know who will end up responding and who won't, but I don't think that means the offer wasn't on the table for everyone. Like I said, this is merely my understanding at this point in my journey. I don't mean it as "fighting words".

 

I answered the poll before seeing your post about the above, though. Really, I wanted to answer "both". But in a literal sense, salvation comes by faith alone to the unsaved. Then, once saved & as believers, we are held to a higher standard, even a separate judgement, which is based on works. Works don't get us to heaven, but they are an expression of love to our Lord. It's also us fulfilling commands and doing the work here on earth set forth for us in the Bible - obedience out of love, not legalism. I think intent/motive is everything. Good works done solely for personal gain, recognition, etc. are worth nil in eternity.

 

The answer seemed simple but then I started typing. :) As we approach the cross, faith saves us. After we are saved, works count for a lot. Works count for nothing (as far as having any saving power) before we approach the cross because the Bible states that our works cannot save us and has some graphic descriptions of what our works look like to God in comparison to His glory. I think the books of Hebrews (faith) & James (works) should be taken in context together.

[Remudamom]

I'm sure this has been said but I can't read through all this.

 

You are saved because God chooses you to be saved, and then He changes your heart and your life is lived accordingly.

 

Predestination.

[brehon]

I'm sure this has been said but I can't read through all this.

 

You are saved because God chooses you to be saved, and then He changes your heart and your life is lived accordingly.

 

Predestination.

 

In your/your denomination's opinion. Not in other's views.

[Lovedtodeath]

As we approach the cross, faith saves us. After we are saved, works count for a lot.

"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.” This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying that a person has life.” But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, He has perfected those who are being sanctified. That through his death... he might emancipate all those who for fear of death were subject to slavery all through their lives.- Galatians 3:3,12; Hebrews 10:12-14;2:14,15; Galatians 5:4,1

I tried to clarify that I'm interested in what people think the catalyst to salvation is. Some think salvation happens in an instant, a point in time, and some think it's a process. But something has to get it all started.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”-- Romans 10:9-13

 

For me as a Messianic Jew, they go together as well. Faith without works is dead. However, grace and forgiveness are free. Not really contradictory, but rather complimentary. You know, they are known by their fruit...etc.

Faithe

Yes. exactly. Faith will produce works. If your faith does not produce works then it wasn't faith to begin with.

 

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. --2 Corinthians 1:21, 22

 

So put your full trust in Him! Proverbs 3:5-6

Edited February 12, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Annabel Lee]

"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.” This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying that a person has life.” But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, He has perfected those who are being sanctified. That through his death... he might emancipate all those who for fear of death were subject to slavery all through their lives.- Galatians 3:3,12; Hebrews 10:12-14;2:14,15; Galatians 5:4,1

 

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”-- Romans 10:9-13

 

Yes. exactly. Faith will produce works. If your faith does not produce works then it wasn't faith to begin with.

 

:iagree:Yes, this is what I meant. (underline & italics added)

 

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. --2 Corinthians 1:21, 22

 

So put your full trust in Him! Proverbs 3:5-6

 

Apparently my attempt at putting it in a nutshell was bad. I don't mean that works bring any redemption or salvation. Since you are obviously familiar with the Bible, surely you know the verses I referred to, the ones stating there will be 2 judgements - one for unbelievers and one for believers. Those verses clearly state Christians will be judged according to their works. ("Judged" here doesn't measure saved vs. unsaved, nor does it question entrance to heaven.) I don't think it means that good works have the power to save.

 

Lovedtodeath, I agree with what you wrote above. Which is why this morning, I began wondering about it all and became puzzled. I wondered to myself the following, considering there's the white throne of judgement for the saved who are assuredly saved & going to heaven: When we get saved, aren't we forgiven all our sins? If we are saved from all our sins, why do we continually pray for forgiveness? (One of many answers would be that we're encouraged to confess sins one to another, and the example Jesus set in the Lord's prayer of asking forgiveness.) I also thought of the verse about when he forgives, he puts our sin as far away from him as the east is from the west. If we are forgiven for sins that we've asked forgiveness for and/or because we're saved, what exactly goes on at this judgement day for Christians? I keep wondering, if there's forgiveness, then why judgement? And if there's judgement (not to hell, mind you), then what exactly did the forgiveness do? So far, I (barely) understand this judgement to be where we are held accountable of what we allowed God to do with our lives vs. what we actually allowed him to do with us as Christians* . It's where we're given the various rewards spoken of in the Bible too: crowns, which we then give to Jesus.

 

*ETA: Whoops, I meant "what we allowed God to do with our lives vs. what He could have done with us had we laid down our own will further".

 

I realize how convoluted and over analytical that is. They're not questions I'm stressed over, but I do desire to understand it properly.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Annabel Lee

[knit247]

In answer to the OP. I do not think that faith and works are exclusive in salvation. They are inclusive. Yes, the only way to be saved is by faith but I believe the Bible clearly explains that a true biblical faith requires action. If there is no action then I believe that the faith is not a biblical faith as described by Jesus. If one has the biblical faith as described by Jesus then one will be moved to action. Otherwise, the faith they claim to have is dead in the eyes of Jesus. It is by the faith that Christ describes that a person is truly saved and his descriptions of that faith clearly include works.

 

I am coming in so late to this thread, but just wanted to say that I have never heard it explained this way and it made so. much. sense. Thank you!

[Cindy in C-ville]

Couldn't vote because there's no way I could tease these two apart. My view is like many others here. We're saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but faith without works is dead. Abiding in Christ and bearing fruit are inseparable.

 

John 15:1-17

 

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

[Lovedtodeath]

Apparently my attempt at putting it in a nutshell was bad. I don't mean that works bring any redemption or salvation. Since you are obviously familiar with the Bible,

Correction... I have a lot of Bible knowledge in the areas I have already studied from my previous religious affiliation and into Christ, but I have only been a Born Again Christian for a few months, so I don't have all of this knowledge that you are assuming. ;) :blushing: (actually that assumption is very humbling)

surely you know the verses I referred to, the ones stating there will be 2 judgements - one for unbelievers and one for believers. Those verses clearly state Christians will be judged according to their works. ("Judged" here doesn't measure saved vs. unsaved, nor does it question entrance to heaven.) I don't think it means that good works have the power to save.

 

Lovedtodeath, I agree with what you wrote above. Which is why this morning, I began wondering about it all and became puzzled. I wondered to myself the following, considering there's the white throne of judgement for the saved who are assuredly saved & going to heaven: When we get saved, aren't we forgiven all our sins? If we are saved from all our sins, why do we continually pray for forgiveness? (One of many answers would be that we're encouraged to confess sins one to another, and the example Jesus set in the Lord's prayer of asking forgiveness.) I also thought of the verse about when he forgives, he puts our sin as far away from him as the east is from the west. If we are forgiven for sins that we've asked forgiveness for and/or because we're saved, what exactly goes on at this judgement day for Christians? I keep wondering, if there's forgiveness, then why judgement? And if there's judgement (not to hell, mind you), then what exactly did the forgiveness do? So far, I (barely) understand this judgement to be where we are held accountable of what we allowed God to do with our lives vs. what we actually allowed him to do with us as Christians. It's where we're given the various rewards spoken of in the Bible too: crowns, which we then give to Jesus.

 

I realize how convoluted and over analytical that is. They're not questions I'm stressed over, but I do desire to understand it properly.

Actually, I don't know what you are talking about with the crowns, or the separate judgments, but I suppose I know how to google it. lol

 

The Galatians were using their own efforts to sanctify themselves. This is where they were in error. James says faith without works is dead, because works are a natural result of faith... this is different than saying, "you better work hard enough" kwim?

 

I have questions too, and think that several points that people argue about aren't really perfectly clear in an intellectual sense...

 

but I just stick to the essentials that brought me to Christ, 2 Corinthians 11:3; Titus 3:9 and completely trust in God.

 

John 15:

Cindy, I love that scripture! "Apart from me you can do nothing!" Amen Lord! Amen! Edited February 13, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Cindy in C-ville]

 

Cindy, I love that scripture! "Apart from me you can do nothing!" Amen Lord! Amen!

 

Me too! This is one of my favorite passages as it so beautifully combines intimacy with Christ and impacting the world through Christ and there is absolutely NOTHING we can do apart from him!

[Bluegoat]

I don't think it is possible or any human to have a complete understanding of God, so if we need that to be saved - and I hate that expression - we are all in trouble.

 

Paul however suggest that we are judged according to what we know - not according to what we don't know.

 

As ar as faith and works, i have two thoughts.

 

The first is that they are not really so much two different things - they are both ways of affirming God. If we say we believe, or even feel we really believe, but what we choose to actually do is also a statement of belief. If we do what we know is displeasing to God we are making a lie of the faith we claim. And faith itself can often be a work - something that we decide to stick to even when we don't feel like it is true.

 

Also - part of the reason I hate talk about a person being saved is that it makes it seem like a binary proposition. (I agree with the statement "I was saved, i am being saved, i will be saved"). As if we have a good relationship with God or we don't have any. But in reality that is not how we are made - we live a life of many moments, our will is often divided. We are all saved from the perspective of God's action in uniting humanity back to himself. But our drawing closer to him and increasingly letting him live in us (or alas moving away from him) is a proces,s and one that includes the time before we are professing Christians as well as all our lives afterward. That process, which means in part increasingly opening ourselves to let him live in us and do his will, is itself the substance of our salvation as it applies to us individually.