What's the point to years and years of formal English Grammar?

[...................]

I know SWB recommends quite a few years of formal grammar in TWTM, the edition that I have recommends Abeka, and I know she also recommends R&S and that FLL certainly drills a lot of formal grammar.

 

I had lots of creative writing in public school in middle school. When I transferred back to Catholic school in the end of 7th grade, I was taught formal grammar. They were diagramming extremely difficult sentences and I picked it up within two weeks and was at the head of my 8th grade class. My classmates had 5 years of formal grammar, and I had none at that point.

 

Another thought is, that in high school we rarely talked about grammar except in Spanish class, and I had no problems there either. The book and teacher explained during the lesson what she was talking about. She might begin a lesson by saying, today we are going to learn about the Spanish predicate. Then she would explain what that was. In context, none of us had difficulty.

 

I'm just thinking that writing often, and writing a lot, and correcting grammar errors as they pop up in writing, as well as using GUM drops, is enough until about 8th grade. At that point, I think a grammar refresher would be in order to help with high school foreign language, for my dd. My son will not need it because he learns Grammar in his Greek lessons.

 

Any thoughts? Does anyone else feel like 6 years of formal grammar is a waste? AKA I'm thinking of dropping all formal grammar from 1st- 7th grade.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Calming Tea

[Bluegoat]

I think that by high school, you should mostly be done formal grammar. But it would be touched on when writing things for other purposes, as required.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Bluegoat

[...................]

Thanks for your input Blue Goat. But I'm talking about dropping all formal grammar between 1st and 7th grade.

 

It seems to me that some grammar editing fun, and having grammar errors corrected in their writing assignments, as well as a good deal of exposure to excellent writing, would be enough.

[HiddenJewel]

Our experience has been that saving formal grammar until middle school works well. We do informal grammar through elementary and then, of course, proper grammar usage is required all through high school. The formal grammar instruction does include heavy diagramming.

[momto2Cs]

I too think there is too much emphasis on grammar. The basics are not that hard, and I don't think they need to be drilled into children's heads. We haven't done formal grammar with either child (ages 8 and 10) yet, but we're looking at doing a fun unit on it with The Sentence Family, Ruth Heller's World of Language series, and Brian Cleary's Words Are Categorical series. After that, we'll touch on it again in a year or so with Grammar-Land, but beyond that, I think we'll be fine. They may need to review at a high school level, and in foreign languages, but I don't think it needs to be so intensive.

[Bloggermom]

With my kids I plan to do formal grammar from 5th-7th grade and then stop.

[coffeefreak]

No, I think that like math, proper grammar usage takes practice. Years and years of practice. I also think that it's hard to be a good writer if you don't understand the mechanics of your language. For example, if you don't understand what the parts of speech are and what purpose they serve in a sentence, how do you know when you have a complete sentence? I know the Charlotte Mason argument, that if you're copying great works, reading great books, and speaking proper English, your dc will have an understanding of English without even knowing it. However, my youngest is living proof that theories are not truth. :lol: She is constantly using improper English, and has struggled with learning to write complete sentences. She is getting better, and I really have to credit our grammar studies.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[Amy Jo]

I agree. I am going to follow the recommendations from Charlotte Mason Help. We are doing KISS Grammar in 3rd - 5th grade. Then I'll have them do a one year, formal brush-up in highschool - probably "Our Mother Tongue", since I own it.

 

I think Charlotte Mason's method is enough. Especially if you are studying a grammar heavy foreign language.

 

(One could say that about many subjects besides grammar - even math! Or Latin! Or History! Sure a twelve year old will probably learn faster than an eight year old. But I don't plan to save all those subjects for junior high! Every family need to choose what is the best focus for their family. I think the WTM is a framework - options you can take and modify.)

[...................]

My oldest will be in 5th grade, which is almost middle school. If I am going to do formal grammar, now may be the time.

 

On the other hand, there is only so much time in the day, and he is perhaps better served by spending more time writing, and reading.

[HiddenJewel]

Isn't it true that a student can learn something quicker and better when his/her brain is ready to learn it vs. drilling it in when the brain is not ready for it?

[boscopup]

On the other hand, there is only so much time in the day, and he is perhaps better served by spending more time writing, and reading.

 

Grammar doesn't need to take a lot of time. My 2nd grader spends 10-15 minutes on it, using FLL3 (which is gentle, but thorough - definitely not drill and kill). But one reason why I'm doing grammar now is because I have a lot more time in the day to do it. ;) By 5th grade, I want to be focusing more on writing, which means I want my son to already have plenty of grammar under his belt, so we can discuss his writing using grammatical terms. And as a PP mentioned, grammar takes practice. Yes, you can learn it in 2 weeks, and then you will promptly forget it when you're done using it. :tongue_smilie: Or you can learn it every year from a small child, and by time you're in middle school, you just need occasional brush-up, because the grammar is so ingrained in your head that you're not going to forget it. :D

 

I have not forgotten the math facts that I used every single year starting in 1st grade. I have forgotten much of the grammar that I wasn't taught until middle or high school.

 

Now my oldest probably could have waited on grammar, because he does pick it up naturally for the most part. Starting in 3rd grade would have been fine. He likes diagramming though, and grammar is easy for him. My middle son has language issues and will likely need grammar every year from the very beginning. He still has trouble with word order in his speech, and he's 5 years old. He will need to be explicitly taught grammar and proper oral usage. Waiting until 5th grade or later would be disastrous for him, I'm sure!

[HiddenJewel]

My oldest will be in 5th grade, which is almost middle school. If I am going to do formal grammar, now may be the time.

 

On the other hand, there is only so much time in the day, and he is perhaps better served by spending more time writing, and reading.

 

I would say that 5th or 6th grade is a good time to start formal grammar. What I watch for is that the student is starting to think more logically. Then formal grammar can really take hold. If you oldest is at that point, do the grammar now so he/she can have a stronger foundation for writing in the junior and senior high years. It does not take that much time each day.

 

Just as I do not teach phonics to a child until he can recognize that words can be broken into sounds, I do not feel that teaching formal grammar is effective until the brain processes are mature enough.

 

But that is just my opinion.

 

ETA: I have one dd who did just fine learning grammar from early on. It did not click for my 2nd dd until she did Analytical Grammar in 7th grade. Before that it was frustration upon frustration for both of us. So now I teach grammar early but don't push it if understanding is not there.

Edited November 22, 2011 by HiddenJewel

[justLisa]

No, I think that like math, proper grammar usage takes practice. Years and years of practice. I also think that it's hard to be a good writer if you don't understand the mechanics of your language. For example, if you don't understand what the parts of speech are and what purpose they serve in a sentence, how do you know when you have a complete sentence?

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

 

I have mixed feelings, though I have been thinking about this for a while now and I am ready to reassess, after most of this year has been interest lacking due to the fact that i am trying to juggle too many LA's studies. The purpose of proper grammar usage is to be able to apply those skills to writing in all areas/subjects correct? I agree with copy work, however this does not seem to in itself, help DS carry this over to something HE wants to write. TWTM suggests WWE and FLL for early years. Well for us, it gets boring and though it is helping with summarizing a passage, there really isn't much else there. DS is slow to write, and he NEEDS to be writing more in other areas. He does have interests, but they are often put to a screeching hault after he has already had a grammar lesson, a writing lesson, etc. Maybe this is a little bit why in PS they came up with that creative spelling or writing or whatever it is? There must be something in the middle of, structured lessons that take several hours total and leave no room for creativity, and absolutely no instruction whatsoever.

 

 

I have a 7 year old DS, excels in and loves math, anything technical. He is slow to write, but picks up and remembers basic grammar. My problem with following TWTM to a T on this has several parts. I DO believe grammar is extremely important. However, I do not think that my young children at this point would ever put together such complex sentences to need diagramming. I understand it is important to learn parts of speech, and sentence structure. So why not teach these things when they will be put to more use? I guess sentence diagramming is also helpful for understanding difficult writings? Some of this I wonder, is a matter of maturity? I look back to math. DS is incredibly intuitive in this area. But I remember trying to explain certain basic concepts further, or really drill the mental math, but It just was not clicking, until we moved on to different concepts, and after coming back to arithmetic/subtraction it totally clicked and he could "see" in his heading working with 2, 3 or 4 digit numbers. I think the several months age difference between now and it originally being taught made a HUGE difference. Sometimes moving on and exploring different topics that are built upon something that is NOT completely solidified, (I think) can sometimes mature one making that simple concept truly seem, simple. At least I have seen these with DS.

 

I am really leaning toward less formal grammar/writing lessons per week, and leaving more time for other things. For MY DS, writing 3 or 4 sentences in a day is alot, though he tries very hard. He has excellent thoughts, just slow to write, but we are working on that.

 

It really bugs me to buy several scripted and planned out curricula only to use parts of them. I am wondering if it would be better to have some sort of reference/outline teaching and apply that to other areas, rather than a writing program JUST for the sake of writing, if that makes sense. What I mean is say, with WWW3 you do a lot of rewriting these sentences, and use models of what is already there. TWTM suggest kids should not need to be creative before learning sound mechanics, but maybe it would be better to let them sometimes? I notice DS is becoming more critical and almost worried to write something, in fear I am going to pick it apart and critique. I mean, *I* do not do that, but the curricula I give him does.

 

I dunno, just so many of my random thoughts here LOL

 

ETA: like boscopup, I am using FFL with DS now, and that only takes minutes a day. I just got this, but plan to use it 3 times per week.

Edited November 22, 2011 by 425lisamarie

[Ellie]

I don't believe that native speakers of English should have to *study* their own grammar for 12 years. I do believe that there should be some instruction, but also that there must be instruction in actually using the language well.

[lewelma]

Unfortunately, the basic grammar that most children learn is obvious and intuitive to native English speakers. It is not until you get to verbals that formal grammar informs good writing. The problem is that you have to do the basic grammar to get to the good stuff (verbals).

 

So IMHO, if you are going to do formal grammar, make sure you get to infinitives, participles, and gerunds, otherwise you have spent a lot of time on stuff that is not very useful to writing because it is too basic.

 

FWIW, I see the grammar in every sentence I write and use it every day to edit my work.

 

Ruth in NZ

[redsquirrel]

I did FLL 1-4 with my eldest and I will do it again with my younger child. You are correct, there are only so many hours in the day. That becomes more apparent as the kids get older. I am glad we spend 10 to 15 mins a day on grammar when they are younger. Now, we have got much of the basic stuff out long out of the way and can focus on more the more challenging aspects. My son would have been very frustrated if we had to spend 6th grade talking about things like 'what is a noun'. That would feel very babyish to him. He is up to a bigger challenge and with the foundations of grammar done I can give it to him. I feel like grammar study in years 1-5 has been a great time saver.

 

My son is also studying Latin and Spanish and tells me frequently that because he has studied grammar those languages feel 'easy'. I think what he means is streamlined. We can often skip the grammar instruction basics because he knows that part. It allows us to skip right to grammar usage and application.

[justamouse]

Thanks for your input Blue Goat. But I'm talking about dropping all formal grammar between 1st and 7th grade.

 

It seems to me that some grammar editing fun, and having grammar errors corrected in their writing assignments, as well as a good deal of exposure to excellent writing, would be enough.

 

Beechick has an interesting persepctive on that. Check out her book, You Can Teach Your Child Successfully. I don't ascribe to all of her ideas, but the grammar/writing is one I've taken up.

[leeannpal]

I know SWB recommends quite a few years of formal grammar in TWTM, the edition that I have recommends Abeka, and I know she also recommends R&S and that FLL certainly drills a lot of formal grammar.

 

I had lots of creative writing in public school in middle school. When I transferred back to Catholic school in the end of 7th grade, I was taught formal grammar. They were diagramming extremely difficult sentences and I picked it up within two weeks and was at the head of my 8th grade class. My classmates had 5 years of formal grammar, and I had none at that point.

 

Another thought is, that in high school we rarely talked about grammar except in Spanish class, and I had no problems there either. The book and teacher explained during the lesson what she was talking about. She might begin a lesson by saying, today we are going to learn about the Spanish predicate. Then she would explain what that was. In context, none of us had difficulty.

 

I'm just thinking that writing often, and writing a lot, and correcting grammar errors as they pop up in writing, as well as using GUM drops, is enough until about 8th grade. At that point, I think a grammar refresher would be in order to help with high school foreign language, for my dd. My son will not need it because he learns Grammar in his Greek lessons.

 

Any thoughts? Does anyone else feel like 6 years of formal grammar is a waste? AKA I'm thinking of dropping all formal grammar from 1st- 7th grade.

 

How would your kids know how to correct their writing if they haven't had formal grammar? It is just my opinion that students who have no formal grammar during the elementary years are not any more prepared to write well at the middle school or high school level than elementary children who have had no math facts would be prepared to start algebra. Grammar builds upin itself much like math does.

 

In your situation, you may just have an affinity for languages and grammar. Not all children would pick up the correct usage of grammar and punctuation so quickly.

[HiddenJewel]

How would your kids know how to correct their writing if they haven't had formal grammar? It is just my opinion that students who have no formal grammar during the elementary years are not any more prepared to write well at the middle school or high school level than elementary children who have had no math facts would be prepared to start algebra. Grammar builds upin itself much like math does

 

I'm wondering if part of the issue here is the differing definitions of formal grammar. Formal grammar to me is learning how to parse and diagram sentences from simple to complex (including all the phrases and clauses) and to apply those skills to writing. We do informal grammar all through elementary which includes how to build sentences (may or may not stress grammar terms) and using proper punctuation. But hard core analysis of sentence structure is left to the middle school years for us.

[birchbark]

I posted on this question here.

[MeaganS]

The reason I plan on teaching my kids grammar so well early on that they know it like the back of their hands is because I want them to not even have to think about it. I had very little grammar instruction. I'm as articulate and correct in language as I am because of my parents and the fact that they mostly speak correctly. But I have never felt comfortable writing. It is my hope and belief that if I teach grammar early, young, and consistently, that they will be able to know and understand it so well as to apply it effortlessly. I believe that there is a richness to our language that can only be understood when we know it well from a grammatical standpoint. And by knowing, I mean fluently, not just a few vocab words like "noun" and "adverb" but actually having an understanding of how our language works. I was one of those who excelled at the two years of grammar I was given and promptly forgot it. I feel like one of the biggest reasons I'm attracted to classical education is because I want my children to be able to write very well and to be articulate, and grammar is an essential part of that.

[Jim]

No, I think that like math, proper grammar usage takes practice. Years and years of practice. I also think that it's hard to be a good writer if you don't understand the mechanics of your language. For example, if you don't understand what the parts of speech are and what purpose they serve in a sentence, how do you know when you have a complete sentence? I know the Charlotte Mason argument, that if you're copying great works, reading great books, and speaking proper English, your dc will have an understanding of English without even knowing it. However, my youngest is living proof that theories are not truth. :lol: She is constantly using improper English, and has struggled with learning to write complete sentences. She is getting better, and I really have to credit our grammar studies.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

 

I completely agree. As a professional writer I wish I understood the grammar of writing. I'm sure my overworked editors feel the same way. While the nuns tried their best, grammar never made sense to me and now it is one of the few skills that holds me back. They can fix my writing but the need for someone else to do so bothers me every single day.

 

I think the 15-20 minutes a day it takes to complete FLL (actually only 3x/week) is a worthwhile investment. I would not risk being wrong in theory. Spending the time will certainly do no harm.

 

I was dissappointed to learn SWB would not be completing the follow-on to FLL. I was prepared to follow it through to the end. If is anything like FLL 3/4 it would be a hit in this house. Followed up with writing assignments through HS ds would be well prepared for any path he decides to follow. That's my goal, to make sure he is unhampered by any mistakes I might make and is prepared to chase his dreams.

[Carrie12345]

I haven't "finished" any children yet, so I may be talking out of my rear, but I don't feel the route schools are taking (light on the grammar) is working. I am not a particularly gifted writer, yet the stuff I see in public makes my eyes burn. I fail to see how sprinkling formal grammar across 8 years can produce any worse.

[Tracy]

Have you looked at Analytical Grammar? The premise is basically the question that you posed--that 3 years of instruction in middle school is all you need. I haven't used it, but I have been trying to decide whether to start grammar in 3rd grade or to wait until later and use something like AG.

Edited November 23, 2011 by tracymirko

[go_go_gadget]

I suppose the phrasing of the question ("What's the point to years and years of formal English Grammar?") is slightly misleading, because "years and years" sounds like a lot of intensive instruction, when in fact, as others have said, most programs require only a few minutes a day, a few times a week. I expect to be finished with formal grammar by the middle school years, but I could be wrong.

 

I don't make the kids do what the OP did in school, which sounds like endless repetition of thoroughly understood concepts; if they understand something we don't do all the repetitions just because they're there, though we do periodically review previously mastered concepts for the sake of retention.

 

I didn't receive formal grammar instruction (I didn't know what a verb was until I took a foreign language, for instance, and I learned about pronouns from FLL), but it doesn't seem to have harmed me much. I've aced every essay I've ever written, and I attribute that mainly, as the OP said, to having learned implicitly, rather than explicitly, through reading good literature. The reason I'm not going that route with my children, however, is that not everyone learns that way. Plenty of perfectly intelligent people simply don't pick up information like that implicitly, and consequently can't write in a way that properly represents their intelligence. So far my kids seem to do well with implicit learning (their verbal grammar, modeled on the grammar they hear used, is very good without much correction), but I don't want to count on that. It's always possible to remediate if necessary, but I always say that I'd rather instruct than remediate, so formal grammar it is.

[cjgrubbs]

I agree that every child learns differently. I don't recall much formal grammar from my public school education I can write well, edit the work of others easily and generally recognize when a sentence isn't right and how to fix it. Many, many people can't do that. Or those people, some grammar would perhaps have been helpful.

 

With my kids I've decided to use Easy Grammar starting in 3rd grade through 6th grade and then in 7th use IEW's Fix-it (which is 5 years worth of grammar). I used Fix-it with my 5th grader last year and it was great, he learned a lot but it was our first year homeschooling and I wish I would have used Easy Grammar for that reason. So this year I'm using Easy Grammar with him - we are required to take SATs in 4th, 6th and 8th here. If one of my kiddos struggle with grammar past 8th grade I guess we will revisit and find a program to do another review.

 

 

The beauty of homeschooling is finding what works for each child and especially as they get older and you begin to discern what type of career plans/family plans they are leaning towards you can help to guide them towards what will be most beneficial for their anticipated future.

[Halcyon]

My kids enjoy grammar. I think it's the technical, "take-it-apart" aspect. Anyway, I started teaching grammar to both my boys in 1st grade, simply because I wanted them to know the parts of speech, etc. Just the basics. But the more we did, the more we enjoyed ourselves. Older's writing has benefitted, and both children have been able to generate more complex sentences, I believe in part because of their exposure to grammar.

 

We are trying KISS grammar this week, just to see how another curriculum approaches grammar. So far, I really, really like it.

[...................]

I have read all of your replies, and I have decided to do formal grammar for my 5th grader. I will probably use Bob Jones English which includes plenty of formal grammar alongside its writing lessons.

 

This year we are doing Calvert 4th and it is abysmal. There is plenty of grammar in the grammar workbook, but it is not taught clearly, and it is not reviewed enough, and it is barely practiced. It has been a complete loss.

 

We tried Easy Grammar last year and I thought it was well done. My Catholic School teachers used the method of eliminating prepositional phrases as well. But my son just didn't retain enough of it. I believe he needs the diagramming to really see and retain it. Nothing stuck with Easy Grammar.

 

I will hold off on formal grammar for my dd until 4th grade though. I think she will benefit from PLL next year in 3rd grade. She knows her parts of speech from Mad Libs already, so that's a plus. :)

[Candid]

SWB gives one very strong answer by showing how being able to diagram a sentence can help improve writing:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/media/downloads/pdfsamples/wwesample.pdf

 

Here's the thing, if in whatever grade a child is a whiz kid of diagramming how long will they remember that skill to be able to use it naturally and easily later while writing? There's an old saying that if you don't use it you lose it, I think that is very true of skills like diagramming and other grammar related knowledge.

[...................]

because unless a student has several years or more of formal grammar in elementary, AND reviews diagramming all through high school, then there's almost no point because whatever the student learned, will be quickly forgotten!~

 

It seems to me that after reading this thread, and considering all these points, I have two logical options: Either do formal grammar in 5th-8th grade, plus review all through high school, OR forget about it and just use a more natural approach.

[lionfamily1999]

I don't think it's either/or. Dd was not taught grammar in school (we started hsing in 8th grade). She only started formal grammar lessons this year (9th). She is a grammar fanatic at this point.

 

Ds the elder started grammar in 2nd grade. He hasn't learned it all yet (5th), but every year it becomes more and more involved. By high school he will have a firm grasp of grammar, inside out and backwards, just like he will have a firm grasp of reading and the vocabulary that goes with it.

[angela in ohio]

I teach high school writing classes, and I always ask about my students' grammar background. That has been enough to convince me to put a lot of effort into grammar :D, even if my own experience (very high PSAT scores and a perfect English ACT opened many doors for me) wasn't enough. It is very hard to discuss writing with students who don't know the basics or have the vocabulary to do so. Trying to learn grammar whlile simultaneously learning the rhetorical aspects of essay writing is difficult, and it holds them back.

 

We do grammar 3-8, then it is reviewed constantly in high school in their writing. We use R&S. Yes, I could teach it more informally, but that is only because I learned it well in school. ;) I choose not to, though, because it is less time consuming to just go through the R&S lesson.

 

Not all homeschool moms know grammar so well and are able to teach it in context. Also, not all children pick up grammar from a first exposure; you were lucky to pick it up so quickly, and maybe your dc will do the same or maybe not. For the majority of children, repetition is a necessity, despite the old "just wait until they are older and they can learn it in a month" mantra popular with homeschoolers. I have seen that burn too many friends over the years.

[Candid]

because unless a student has several years or more of formal grammar in elementary, AND reviews diagramming all through high school, then there's almost no point because whatever the student learned, will be quickly forgotten!~

 

It seems to me that after reading this thread, and considering all these points, I have two logical options: Either do formal grammar in 5th-8th grade, plus review all through high school, OR forget about it and just use a more natural approach.

 

Did you read the sample chapter? That will give you the why would diagramming in particular help a writer. And SWB says it much better than I do.

The ultimate goal of grammar instruction is not to be corrective or descriptive, but rather, to be constructive. It is not enough to merely be able to write correctly. High school age students should be learning to write forcefully and convincingly. This requires them to use all the tools of language, and the grammatical rules are the starting points for those tools.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

You might also consider the local culture. Do native speakers in your area reinforce proper English to your children? Or do they make it less likely that your children will remember their grammar lessons? :tongue_smilie:

 

My children study grammar diligently from second grade to tenth grade because we live in a part of the country that does not pride itself on sounding smart. There is no auditory reinforcement of proper grammar, so it will have to come from within for my kids. The way to do that is to over-learn the subject. We over-learn grammar by studying it every year and also by learning grammar through Spanish, Latin, and Greek.

 

I also have to make up for myself. I don't make egregious grammatical errors in my writing, but small errors abound. Thanks to formal grammar instruction, my teens make fewer of those mistakes than I do.) My spoken English is the colloquial Appalachian of my Dad's family, and it is hardly grammatical. I don't want to sanitize it, though, because it is my last link with some of that long-gone branch of the family.

 

Our longest R&S lessons don't take more than half an hour to complete. We can spare that time.

[...................]

These are all excellent thoughts. Candace, I read half of it but have not yet finished the sample chapter. I will finish it. My point is however, that unless it is reinforced thoroughly and reviewed consistently it'll be forgotten, just like anything else; however important it is.

 

But then again, I certainly believe in teaching math thoroughly and over a span of many years so as to reduce the amount of forgotten material.

 

I couldn't agree with this more:

 

"despite the old "just wait until they are older and they can learn it in a month" mantra popular with homeschoolers. I have seen that burn too many friends over the years."

__________________

 

That is very true.

 

OK, I am convinced... I'd rather give my children all the tools to succeed that I can give them, then leave something out and regret it later. Of course, as I said before, there is only so much time in the day so I can't give them every tool on the planet. But since grammar really only takes a few minutes per day, I will continue to include it.

[chepyl]

I did not have solid grammar instruction until 6thand 7th grade. I have to work very hard to use correct grammar in writting. I started learning foreign languages in 6th as well.....I had no idea what any of the grammar terms meant in English. I could memorize all the verb endings, but I did not understand their Isage becaise I never had a firm grasp of the verb tenses in English. What I did learn in middle school did not stick.

 

I am doing grammar with my first grader. It takes less than 10 minutes a day. I know it will take longer as he gets older, but it is worth it to me.

[Homemama2]

In your situation, you may just have an affinity for languages and grammar. Not all children would pick up the correct usage of grammar and punctuation so quickly

 

:iagree: And BECAUSE of this, you may be able to teach your children grammar informally using their writing. Then you would be getting the benefits of the grammar (which will improve their writing) without the drill and kill textbooks you're trying to avoid. You could take what they were writing (maybe a summary of something they read?) and pick a couple of sentences or a paragraph and have them find the nouns and verbs. Explain how the pronouns take the place of the nouns. Point out punctuation etc. Have them diagram one of their sentences etc. Only you know if this is something that would come easily and naturally for you, or if this would be a major pain in the neck. ;)

[HRAAB]

I don't start what I call formal grammar until 4th/5th grade or later, but that doesn't mean my children aren't learning grammar prior to that. I teach the parts of speech, subject, predicate - nothing too complicated - prior to formal grammar (textbook) through their copywork. We work on nouns until they are obvious, then verbs, and so on. I have several grammar handbooks that I use when I'm not sure about something, but it's nothing too complicated. My younger two sailed through MCT last year; this year we're using KISS quite successfully. My older girls worked through VIE 7th and 8th or AG and the Editor in Chief books. If I notice that those grammar skills aren't evident in their writing, we go back and review. We certainly don't do formal, textbook grammar every year for 12 years, but we are covering grammar indirectly throughout school. It has worked for us.

[HiddenJewel]

I believe he needs the diagramming to really see and retain it.

 

This was absolutely true for dd#2.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Unfortunately, the basic grammar that most children learn is obvious and intuitive to native English speakers. It is not until you get to verbals that formal grammar informs good writing. The problem is that you have to do the basic grammar to get to the good stuff (verbals).

 

So IMHO, if you are going to do formal grammar, make sure you get to infinitives, participles, and gerunds, otherwise you have spent a lot of time on stuff that is not very useful to writing because it is too basic.

 

FWIW, I see the grammar in every sentence I write and use it every day to edit my work.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

:iagree:I could have written the exact words you wrote. I analyze any sentence I read or write subconsciously. It has become second nature, just like driving, to me because I learned English this way.

[kristinannie]

I completely agree with OP. This is why I am planning on using Analytical Grammar when my kids are much older. Why beat a dead horse and then beat it some more? Kids can pick it up really quickly once they are old enough. For now, I am content to just let them be exposed to good grammar through read alouds, etc. If only I could get my husband's family to use proper grammar. :banghead: That is my pet peeve! We live in WV and grammar is not a priority here!

[angela in ohio]

The ultimate goal of grammar instruction is not to be corrective or descriptive, but rather, to be constructive. It is not enough to merely be able to write correctly. High school age students should be learning to write forcefully and convincingly. This requires them to use all the tools of language, and the grammatical rules are the starting points for those tools.

 

:iagree:

 

.OK, I am convinced... I'd rather give my children all the tools to succeed that I can give them, then leave something out and regret it later. Of course, as I said before, there is only so much time in the day so I can't give them every tool on the planet. But since grammar really only takes a few minutes per day, I will continue to include it.

 

:iagree:

 

:iagree:I could have written the exact words you wrote. I analyze any sentence I read or write subconsciously. It has become second nature, just like driving, to me because I learned English this way.

 

:iagree:

 

:D

[Zoo Keeper]

I teach high school writing classes, and I always ask about my students' grammar background. That has been enough to convince me to put a lot of effort into grammar :D, even if my own experience (very high PSAT scores and a perfect English ACT opened many doors for me) wasn't enough. It is very hard to discuss writing with students who don't know the basics or have the vocabulary to do so. Trying to learn grammar whlile simultaneously learning the rhetorical aspects of essay writing is difficult, and it holds them back.

 

We do grammar 3-8, then it is reviewed constantly in high school in their writing. We use R&S. Yes, I could teach it more informally, but that is only because I learned it well in school. ;) I choose not to, though, because it is less time consuming to just go through the R&S lesson.

 

Not all homeschool moms know grammar so well and are able to teach it in context. Also, not all children pick up grammar from a first exposure; you were lucky to pick it up so quickly, and maybe your dc will do the same or maybe not. For the majority of children, repetition is a necessity, despite the old "just wait until they are older and they can learn it in a month" mantra popular with homeschoolers. I have seen that burn too many friends over the years.

 

:iagree: Very well said.

[Quad Shot Academy]

These are all excellent thoughts. Candace, I read half of it but have not yet finished the sample chapter. I will finish it. My point is however, that unless it is reinforced thoroughly and reviewed consistently it'll be forgotten, just like anything else; however important it is.

 

My children and I use the grammar we know, everyday. It is impossible to properly punctuate complex sentences w/o knowing grammar. I frequently say to my kids, "Imagine how you would diagram that in your head." I only learned the basic parts of speech and almost no punctuation, so I am learning along with them.

 

(Reading what SWB said in that previous link, frightens me, because I think all the sentences she is talking about are fine! I also got A's on every paper I wrote in college, but it goes to show that I have a lot to learn!)

 

We have been using R&S every other year. So we will do book 4, 6, and 8. We usually spread it over 2 years, or take a long break in between. Book 9 and 10 are mostly writing, so we will do those too. My kids spend far more time writing, than doing grammar. (I require a half hour of writing a day starting in about 4th grade.)

[angela in ohio]

Here's the thing, if in whatever grade a child is a whiz kid of diagramming how long will they remember that skill to be able to use it naturally and easily later while writing? There's an old saying that if you don't use it you lose it, I think that is very true of skills like diagramming and other grammar related knowledge.

 

Probably forever. Once you can diagram, you use it constantly in your writing, even if you don't realize it. This reinforces the concept over and over every day. I learned to diagram one year in Mrs. Bird's grammar class. I have used it ever since. I think grammar reinforces itself naturally very well, because most of us speak and/or write every day. I think that if a parent learns the grammar wtih the child (this is key, you can't just hand them a grammar book/workbook one year and think you are done,) and they use the vocabulary of grammar and the concepts in diagramming in teaching that child to write, the grammar knwledge will just grow and little will be forgotten.

 

Here's an example: I quit doing multiplication flashcards with my now-15 yo dd years ago. But she still knows her multiplication facts. Not because we still go through them in an orderly way every day for school, but because she uses them in her life and in her math work. No one ever asks whether a child will forget their multiplication facts, but many fail to see how grammar is reinforced as well.

[Candid]

Probably forever. Once you can diagram, you use it constantly in your writing, even if you don't realize it. This reinforces the concept over and over every day. I learned to diagram one year in Mrs. Bird's grammar class. I have used it ever since. I think grammar reinforces itself naturally very well, because most of us speak and/or write every day. I think that if a parent learns the grammar wtih the child (this is key, you can't just hand them a grammar book/workbook one year and think you are done,) and they use the vocabulary of grammar and the concepts in diagramming in teaching that child to write, the grammar knwledge will just grow and little will be forgotten.

 

Here's an example: I quit doing multiplication flashcards with my now-15 yo dd years ago. But she still knows her multiplication facts. Not because we still go through them in an orderly way every day for school, but because she uses them in her life and in her math work. No one ever asks whether a child will forget their multiplication facts, but many fail to see how grammar is reinforced as well.

 

I disagree with this and the analogy to math. I learned to diagram and multiply in grade school. Multiplication I kept doing because it was very directly in my math each day in school, but when my school stopped teaching diagramming, I stopped using it. While I picked it up quicker when I worked through Rex Barks, I did not use it like SWB suggests in her approach to writing. And it wasn't required of me in the same way multiplication was required of me in my daily math.

 

So I think both some occasional grammar and diagramming should be incorporated into an overall writing program. Analytic Grammar keeps this to less than 15 minutes every two weeks, but much depends on the student and their skills and interests, some students might need more frequent doses. And I think it would be wise in late middle school to teach the writing usage. That was never taught to me, and I did not make the connection.

[Colleen in NS]

I disagree with this and the analogy to math. I learned to diagram and multiply in grade school. Multiplication I kept doing because it was very directly in my math each day in school, but when my school stopped teaching diagramming, I stopped using it. While I picked it up quicker when I worked through Rex Barks, I did not use it like SWB suggests in her approach to writing. And it wasn't required of me in the same way multiplication was required of me in my daily math.

 

So I think both some occasional grammar and diagramming should be incorporated into an overall writing program. Analytic Grammar keeps this to less than 15 minutes every two weeks, but much depends on the student and their skills and interests, some students might need more frequent doses. And I think it would be wise in late middle school to teach the writing usage. That was never taught to me, and I did not make the connection.

 

How complex were the diagrams you learned to do in grade school? What concepts did you learn to diagram?

 

Like you, I learned some diagraming in elementary school. But it wasn't very complex, I was never told how to use it, I didn't make the connection, and I never saw the point. But now I think that if we learn more and more complex grammar concepts, along with having to practice diagraming them, we do eventually incorporate the skill into our everyday thinking/reading/writing/speech/listening. Just because the schools stopped teaching it doesn't mean that it couldn't be applied to everyday life, like arithmetic facts are applied to more complex math. Because I am seeing this in my own grammar-learning life, I think Angela's analogy is correct.

[Candid]

How complex were the diagrams you learned to do in grade school? What concepts did you learn to diagram?

 

Like you, I learned some diagraming in elementary school. But it wasn't very complex, I was never told how to use it, I didn't make the connection, and I never saw the point. But now I think that if we learn more and more complex grammar concepts, along with having to practice diagraming them, we do eventually incorporate the skill into our everyday thinking/reading/writing/speech/listening. Just because the schools stopped teaching it doesn't mean that it couldn't be applied to everyday life, like arithmetic facts are applied to more complex math. Because I am seeing this in my own grammar-learning life, I think Angela's analogy is correct.

 

I may be misunderstanding what she is saying:

Probably forever. Once you can diagram, you use it constantly in your writing, even if you don't realize it.

 

I agree with what you suggest here (in fact you have more nicely stated my original point which she disputed), but her argument was with my original point that diagramming must continue so I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that her quote above indicates an early discontinuation of diagramming.

 

You, I believe, are repeating my original point that you must use it or lose it, and I absolutely agree with you that children must build up to more complex sentences as they themselves develop the ability to work with more complex ideas. And they must be taught explicitly to apply it to their own writing.

 

But perhaps I am misreading. It's been know to happen.

[Colleen in NS]

You, I believe, are repeating my original point that you must use it or lose it,

 

You are right. And I think I misread part of your post (and I'm too tired to explain what I misunderstood). My apologies.

 

I just wasn't sure why you disagreed with her math analogy, because I thought it was apt. Learn mult. facts; apply them to math. Learn how to diagram/learn new diagram constructions; apply them to writing. I also thought she was reinforcing your opinion.

 

Maybe she "learned to diagram," and then learned new constructions to a basic diagram as her grammar knowledge grew, so that in fact she did continue to diagram (I think she said she has used it ever since learning it).