Another family using Pearl techniques...

[Lady Florida.]

Okay, here's an honest question. I live in a pretty conservative area of the country. I may have heard the Pearls mentioned in homeschooling circles years ago, I don't know, never paid attention.

 

Is there an acceptance of the Pearls as a homeschooling thing? IOW do people outside homeschooling believe that the Pearls are accepted and embraced in our community, which I realize is vast and diverse?

 

 

 

A friend of mine who homeschools recently found out that her brother and SIL who are not homeschoolers, are following the Pearls. In fact, her SIL is a teacher in a virtual school and very pro-public school. My friend knows that because she's an atheist, they won't even consider advice from her. She's been posting links to non-spanking Christian sites on her facebook page, and has asked friends to support her in their comments. She's hoping that will help them see through the Pearls advice. I posted a link to Gentle Christian Parenting.

 

So, in answer to your question, I don't think all followers are homeschoolers. I think maybe those who are homeschooling don't get "found out" until something horrible happens.

[sassyscrapperinid]

I've heard that idea (the children you adopt should be younger than the children you already have). It's the idea that ALL children up for adoption have been abused and will be abusers is really upsetting.

 

In another article, when a mother writes in that her 10 year old adopted son has molested her 3 year old biological daughter his advice is turn the boy over to the police or ship him back.

 

Ummmm.. Wow- I certainly do not agree with or condone the behavior of the Pearls or the Williams, but being an adoptive parent, having had to deal with one of my adopted boys who was 15 when we FOUND OUT he had been molesting my then 5 year old daughter- I definitely agree that adopted children should not be the same age as your bio children. Am I just misunderstanding whats being said here, that the idea of protecting your own children against potential sexual abusers is wrong??? Is it just because Michael Pearl said it? I mean, I really hope I am just misunderstanding because certainly the people here wouldnt think protecting your bio children from sexual abuse at the hands of adopted children is wrong?? When we found out, we sent him to live with my husbands mother thinking she would help him. HA! We should have sent him to jail because right now he lives free from remorse, free from guilt, free from a lick of sense and gets to have facebook and a cell phone and whatever else, while my daughter deals with the struggles of being a survivor of child molestation at the hands of her "brother".

Hana was obviously horribly abused. The woman who adopted her is a horrific person. I am sure however that Carri is not the ony woman out there who regretted adopting.... Regretting adoption, sending a child to bed without supper when they have had 2 other meals that day, which are definitley NOT the same as what Carri did, are also NOT abusive behaviors. There is no arguement to me that Carri is the embodiment of evil, ofcourse she is, but does regretting adoption make you evil or a child abuser? No. And if anyone here is considering adoption without thinking more than twice about the potential abuse their own bio kids will have to endure at the hands of the adopted kids- then you might want to think again. Dont be that naive. And the one comment a PP made about how she hoped the Williams bio kids will learn better about how a family is supposed to be in foster care... Where do you think my adopted son learned that sexual behavior?? FROM BEING MOLESTED IN FOSTER CARE.

[Word Nerd]

A friend of mine who homeschools recently found out that her brother and SIL who are not homeschoolers, are following the Pearls. In fact, her SIL is a teacher in a virtual school and very pro-public school. My friend knows that because she's an atheist, they won't even consider advice from her. She's been posting links to non-spanking Christian sites on her facebook page, and has asked friends to support her in their comments. She's hoping that will help them see through the Pearls advice. I posted a link to Gentle Christian Parenting.

 

So, in answer to your question, I don't think all followers are homeschoolers. I think maybe those who are homeschooling don't get "found out" until something horrible happens.

 

I'm surprised non-homeschoolers would be interested in following them, since the Pearls are also rather dogmatic about homeschooling.

[Word Nerd]

You can read the Pearls' dismissive response (and their supporters') to the recent negative press on the No Greater Joy Ministries Facebook page. :tongue_smilie:

[Parrothead]

You can read the Pearls' dismissive response (and their supporters') to the recent negative press on the No Greater Joy Ministries Facebook page. :tongue_smilie:

There needs to be a "Dislike" button.

[gardenmom5]

being an adoptive parent, having had to deal with one of my adopted boys who was 15 when we FOUND OUT he had been molesting my then 5 year old daughter-

 

, sending a child to bed without supper when they have had 2 other meals that day, which are definitley NOT the same as what Carri did, are also NOT abusive behaviors. FROM BEING MOLESTED IN FOSTER CARE.

 

I'm sorry your adoptive son cause so much pain - but it's not just foster care, and they don't have to have been absued themselves to cause trouble. My niece was repeatedly raped by her 15 yo bio-cousin who had always lived with his bio-parents (both of whom are psychologists) - he had not been sexually abused, his parents (and the grandparents) just made excuses for him and blamed neice. (and lived in a rural farming area where the legal system was less than helpful.)

 

I do have to disagree about taking meals away from a child - even if they've had two meals that day, is not a healthy thing. it makes food a weapon, and sets up a horrible relationship with food. a child missing a meal because they refuse to eat (baring food sensitivities that they physically can't eat whats being served) and you don't want to be a short order cook is entirely different.

[sassyscrapperinid]

As an adoptive mom, I honestly wish states had better post-placement services. Both follow-up visits and proactive educational resources. Even though I consider myself a decent parent, it was good to be able to bounce things off the social worker when she visited. Now that my kids are going on 5, I would like to be able to tap into that resource some more. I realize this would come with a cost, but I'd be willing to pay an up-front fee to cover it. I just don't want to hear of any more kids being hurt because the state didn't check or the parents were clueless.

I definitely agree here- I believe that specialized RAD training/education should be REQUIRED for any foster/adoptive parent. It would have been wonderful to have had a SW come by to visit just to be able to get ideas from.

[seraphina]

I went and read the response on facebook. Those people are deluded. It sickens me that they are so darn smug (if I cursed I would use a stronger word) that their way is God's way. I truly believe that God will punish them for their sins. I try not to judge but the Pearl's are evil people who have perverted God's word to justify their sickening treatment of children.

[cin]

I'm really questioning the sudden increase in vomiting, the sudden waking at night......... Have you considered having them sleep in your room? I had dd8 in our room with us for years. She always had fears of the "chinese men coming to steal her at night," and she had severe night terrors. Maybe sleeping with them nearby will comfort them enough to allow them to sleep more. Take notice of this. It started in September. See if this happens again next year. If it does, what I learned to do was make my dd's world as small and peaceful as possible, focusing on quiet times together.:grouphug:

 

Didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know all of the details, but picked up on the last September watch the date thing. Some kids act our more around their G/R dates. Even if they are too young to know the actual dates. Just like Alzheimer's Patients act out (for lack of a better way to put it) around significant dates.

[cin]

I definitely agree here- I believe that specialized RAD training/education should be REQUIRED for any foster/adoptive parent. It would have been wonderful to have had a SW come by to visit just to be able to get ideas from.

 

Without a doubt. I know some people judge adoptive parents who end up in the news, but I know of a case where the parents TRIED to get help and couldn't get any help. So they tried to turn the child over to the county, who wouldn't take him. he ended up living with a worker at a youth ranch for troubled kids. I don't know if she actually adopted him or not.

 

RAD can be severe. And it can tear a family apart. Adoptive and Foster families should be required to know what RAD is, the symptoms AND to know how to deal with minimal cases. AND to have a refrigerator magnet with names and phone numbers of resources for the severe cases.

 

More discipline will not work for RADs. That is almost what they want. They try to prove that they are unlovable, and usually that is by being 'bad' or 'mean'. They almost feel like they deserve punishment.

 

As an aside, some of the training by these parents resembles some of the 'old' attachment therapy.

 

Therapists often instruct parents to follow programs of treatment at home, for example obedience-training techniques such as "strong sitting" (frequent periods of required silence and immobility) and withholding or limiting food.[2][18] Earlier authors sometimes referred to this as "German Shepherd training".[19] In some programmes children undergoing the two-week intensive stay with "therapeutic foster parents" for the duration or beyond and the adoptive parents are trained in their techniques.[20]

According to the APSAC Task Force, because it is believed children with attachment problems resist attachment, fight against it and seek to control others to avoid attaching, the child's character flaws must be broken before attachment can occur. Attachment parenting may include keeping the child at home with no social contacts, home schooling, hard labor or meaningless repetitive chores throughout the day, motionless sitting for prolonged periods of time, and control of all food and water intake and bathroom needs. Children described as attachment-disordered are expected by attachment therapists[21] to comply with parental commands "fast and snappy and right the first time", and to always be "fun to be around" for their parents.[2] Deviation from this standard, such as not finishing chores or arguing, is interpreted as a sign of attachment disorder that must be forcibly eradicated. From this perspective, parenting a child with an attachment disorder is a battle, and winning the battle by defeating the child is paramount.[2]

 

Yeah, that'll MAKE the kids love you :glare:

[sassyscrapperinid]

I'm sorry your adoptive son cause so much pain - but it's not just foster care, and they don't have to have been absued themselves to cause trouble. My niece was repeatedly raped by her 15 yo bio-cousin who had always lived with his bio-parents (both of whom are psychologists) - he had not been sexually abused, his parents (and the grandparents) just made excuses for him and blamed neice. (and lived in a rural farming area where the legal system was less than helpful.)

 

I do have to disagree about taking meals away from a child - even if they've had two meals that day, is not a healthy thing. it makes food a weapon, and sets up a horrible relationship with food. a child missing a meal because they refuse to eat (baring food sensitivities that they physically can't eat whats being served) and you don't want to be a short order cook is entirely different.

Thanks. I do realize that trouble doesnt only emerge from children in foster care. I just thought it was EXTREMELY ironic for someone to say they hoped a child would learn healthy familial habits while in foster care. Im so sorry about what happened with your niece! Thats just horrible!

This may sound ignorant of me but I never considered sending a child to bed without supper occasionally something that could potentially turn food into a weapon, but I can see after you said that how if that is true, it could be the foundation for an unhealthy relationship with food. There are alot of obese people in this world though, and I doubt it's because they all had to skip a meal as a punishment when they were young. What my point was about that though, is that it isnt abusive for a child to miss a meal occasionally. And then I wanted to ask too, is that we used to attend a church where fasting for a day once a month was expected... Not the young kids but certainly the 8 and over crowd were expected to be encouraged to fast if not at least to fast one of the meals for that day. Like I said, we used to attend, but dont anymore- but not because of the fasting thing. The arguement there might be because its a choice to fast. Looking back on it now, we never really asked the kids if they wanted to, we just did it. So, would fasting be another foundation for an unhealthy relationship with food? However, I totally agree with you about the refusal to eat situation. Again, all I was saying is that a child skipping a meal is not abuse. However, starving a child to where they have lost 30 pounds is abuse/severe neglect! Its just obviously not the same thing.

[sassyscrapperinid]

I don't think it was the kids buying into the parent's rationalizations. My RAD dd always pretends not to know how to do her school work, pretends to fall (for attention), pretends to be sick, sad, etc. She once cried over her phonics pages for an entire week and then completed them in 10 minutes so she could play with her friend. Things like that regularly happened. I can easily see that those kids probably did pretend not to know signing or other things. I also know RAD kids do purposely pee/poo their pants and make it seem like an accident. They purposefully try to push their parent's buttons in any way they can, especially the mothers. (purposefully touching the walls in the bathroom, knowing she has a contagious disease) They do steal and hoard food, even eating until they throw up. If the parents had read about that, maybe they would have been more kind with the food issue. They mad it worse. Many of these things my RAD dd does. She keeps me on my toes for sure, but I've learned that. I think this family probably never did any reading on their child's disorder so they didn't understand what was going on. They CLEARLY didn't read about therapeutic parenting to help their children, either. Those kids didn't stand a chance in that family.

 

The true problem with this and many adoptions we read about in the news is that families truly aren't prepared for the extreme behaviors a RAD child brings with them. If I had been prepared properly, I would have done things differently from day one. And I wouldn't have had to search for answers in all the wrong places, wasting precious years that needed to be dealt with differently to allow healing to take place. (I didn't hold/cuddle dd much because she hated touch so much she would cry. I would allow her to turn her back to me in my lap, because she was more comfortable that way - it was less threatening. Most importantly, I would have known that ALL needs needed to be met by mom ALONE. Instead my 3 kids and dh all helped with her. I made so many mistakes, not knowing they were mistakes.)

 

We have worked through so many of dd's issues, and she's so much better than she's ever been. But it was a TON of work, and not many people I know could have ever done it. Those parents clearly resented the work the physical challenges brought, so I think it's safe to assume they never read up on their kid's issues to try to help them. It's very difficult parenting traumatized RAD kids, but they certainly can be made worse by the abusive parenting these kids had to suffer through.

 

So sad.

 

I've never read a Pearl book and I never will. I think all those books should be taken off the shelves. I can't believe people still buy them.

 

:iagree:

Very well said Denise!!

[sassyscrapperinid]

You don't know that this poor dead girl had RAD.

 

Considering she DIED of hypothermia, I highly doubt she was pretending she was cold.

 

No, we dont know if Hana had RAD, and I dont think Denise was trying to say that Hana was pretending to be cold either... It's a lack of common sense that does the human race in every time.

[sassyscrapperinid]

They can disrupt their adoptions, and find another adoptive placement. I've had two little ones come to live with me for a time because their adoptive parents wanted them out of their house right away. :crying:

 

really??? Not where we are from.

[jenncslp]

really??? Not where we are from.

 

Disruptions are very common here in Tennessee. Though, they are still not talked about a lot. Both children I've had were found to have health issues that the parents did not want to deal with, it wasn't even a case of behavior.

[sassyscrapperinid]

I don't think Denise is justifying their behavior or saying, "look what she did to this family." I think she's explaining what it's like to live with a child with RAD. It's very complex and few people understand it and few are trained in it. Throw a child with attachment issues (very likely at her age) into a family with strict, rigid discipline measures and it's a recipe for disaster. The parents often don't pursue help because the child's behavior is brushed off. They act differently when others are around and truly do target the mother. Not a justification of what was done to her - at all - just the truth. It's very hard. We, as a culture, need to be more open about RAD and more supportive of adoptive families' struggles - even if you don't see it with your own eyes, it doesn't mean it's not there. People need to educate themselves before adopting. RAD can happen even in infants.

 

She was beautiful. I read the affidavit. Horrifying. :(

 

thank you so much for saying this. I appreciate you pointing out these things about RAD children. And yes, it can occur in infants too. We adopted a sibling group of 5, all RAD effected. The youngest was 10 months when we got him. We thought the neglect they suffered wouldnt effect him. Wow, were we surprised and sadly so. Alot of people try to compare non RAD kids to RAD kids. You really just cant. The is no comparison, and because of the drastic differences in behavior and emotions, you cant know what its like to try and parent a RAD child if you never had. My husband and I have had SO many people look at our RAD effected children and say how they cant believe that child would cause an ounce of trouble. They are THAT different around other people. And they do target the mom. My own husband doubted the things I woukd tell him went on while he was at work. It wasnt until he was unemployed for almost 3 years that he realized. Once We went to our "religious leader" for advice, and he really could not even fathom the behavior we were describing because it is that much different. But really thats not the point of this thread. What happened to that girl is horrific and certainly, Denise is not saying that Hana had RAD and deserved whatever punishment she got. I'm definitely not saying that either.

[sassyscrapperinid]

I totally agree with that last post of Pamela's. What happens is that adoptive parents end up being judged when they are dealing with attachment issues. Because of this (not saying it's right), they often don't seek out help for fear of being judged. A child with attachment issues will not bend to discipline like most biological children will. EDUCATION before adoption is essential! I'd lobe it if *everyone* was well versed in this issues so people could come alongside of adoptive parents and encourage them to keep loving when it's hard, to keep hugging when they are rejected, to keep giving the child positive reinforcement so that eventually the can bond and trust, etc. Instead, they usually receive judgement, and in turn this can make some parents MORE bitter, more resentful, and begin to simply dislike their children for "disrupting" their family as they knew it. It happens all the time. Not justifying it, just explaining some of the dynamics. Come along side an adoptive or foster parent if you know one. It's likely they are dealing with difficult things they aren't sharing with other people. As a community, we can help these children. I font think anyone (or certainly not most people) go into adoption trying to harm children. But take uneducated, rigid parents in with some children that were coming out of difficult situations as older children - it CAN turn out tragic. Something must be done. I believe it starts with education - before adoption, after adoption, for the community, therapists, social workers, etc.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Denisemomof4]

Ummmm.. Wow- I certainly do not agree with or condone the behavior of the Pearls or the Williams, but being an adoptive parent, having had to deal with one of my adopted boys who was 15 when we FOUND OUT he had been molesting my then 5 year old daughter- I definitely agree that adopted children should not be the same age as your bio children. Am I just misunderstanding whats being said here, that the idea of protecting your own children against potential sexual abusers is wrong??? Is it just because Michael Pearl said it? I mean, I really hope I am just misunderstanding because certainly the people here wouldnt think protecting your bio children from sexual abuse at the hands of adopted children is wrong?? When we found out, we sent him to live with my husbands mother thinking she would help him. HA! We should have sent him to jail because right now he lives free from remorse, free from guilt, free from a lick of sense and gets to have facebook and a cell phone and whatever else, while my daughter deals with the struggles of being a survivor of child molestation at the hands of her "brother".

Hana was obviously horribly abused. The woman who adopted her is a horrific person. I am sure however that Carri is not the ony woman out there who regretted adopting.... Regretting adoption, sending a child to bed without supper when they have had 2 other meals that day, which are definitley NOT the same as what Carri did, are also NOT abusive behaviors. There is no arguement to me that Carri is the embodiment of evil, ofcourse she is, but does regretting adoption make you evil or a child abuser? No. And if anyone here is considering adoption without thinking more than twice about the potential abuse their own bio kids will have to endure at the hands of the adopted kids- then you might want to think again. Dont be that naive. And the one comment a PP made about how she hoped the Williams bio kids will learn better about how a family is supposed to be in foster care... Where do you think my adopted son learned that sexual behavior?? FROM BEING MOLESTED IN FOSTER CARE.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I'm so sorry for you, my friend.

 

I also want to point out that adopted kids can make the bio kids suffer with nothing physical involved at all.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Denisemomof4]

I definitely agree here- I believe that specialized RAD training/education should be REQUIRED for any foster/adoptive parent. It would have been wonderful to have had a SW come by to visit just to be able to get ideas from.

 

I know a sweet woman who has gone through some RAD training. She's hoping to foster/adopt soon. The training truly doesn't prepare anyone for the REAL LIFE issues that the family will endure. She is probably like I was, thinking that my outpouring of love would be enough. :glare:

 

I know I've spoken numerous times about the struggles my RAD kid has had, and the hell our family has been through. I hope I've also let it be known that with all the resources out there (online support groups, tele-counseling, books, TONS of books, the internet) that I've been able to help my dd tremendously. She's SO MUCH BETTER, but it's still hard when she hits the rough spots.

[Denisemomof4]

Didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know all of the details, but picked up on the last September watch the date thing. Some kids act our more around their G/R dates. Even if they are too young to know the actual dates. Just like Alzheimer's Patients act out (for lack of a better way to put it) around significant dates.

 

What is G/R?

 

Pamela, you'll want to keep the holidays as simple and quiet as possible for your kids this year. My dd usually starts to act out the day we put the decorations out. She's gotten much better, but this will be her 7th Christmas with us.

[justamouse]

I went and read the response on facebook. Those people are deluded. It sickens me that they are so darn smug (if I cursed I would use a stronger word) that their way is God's way. I truly believe that God will punish them for their sins. I try not to judge but the Pearl's are evil people who have perverted God's word to justify their sickening treatment of children.

:iagree:

 

That fb page was sickening.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Pamela, you'll want to keep the holidays as simple and quiet as possible for your kids this year.

 

THAT should be MUCH easier for us than for most people considering we're Jehovah's Witnesses :)

(I have still noticed a bit more stress and money spending in December for reasons I don't understand)

We actually have a family day this month (on the 16th), but we can keep that a bit lower key also.

 

I may have figured out the Sept thing to some degree. They were reunited with parents (from foster care) last September. Of course, that would have put my little guy at 2½ years old, but as I've been researching the last several months, even babies seem to be able to "remember."

[texasmama]

THAT should be MUCH easier for us than for most people considering we're Jehovah's Witnesses :)

(I have still noticed a bit more stress and money spending in December for reasons I don't understand)

We actually have a family day this month (on the 16th), but we can keep that a bit lower key also.

 

I may have figured out the Sept thing to some degree. They were reunited with parents (from foster care) last September. Of course, that would have put my little guy at 2½ years old, but as I've been researching the last several months, even babies seem to be able to "remember."

 

Memories associated with a traumatic event are "set down" differently than memories not associated with trauma. Babies and toddlers (typically thought of as at a "pre memory" stage) can absolutely carry a neurological imprint of traumatic events into the future.

 

You (and other parents of kids with traumatic histories) might enjoy books by Eliana Gil, who is a therapist specializing in the treatment of kids with a trauma history. I have her play therapy book, which was written for professionals, and I'm not clear if she has written books for laypeople/parents, but it would be worth a google.

[CandaceC]

Thank you to all who have been posting links and such...I have read most of it, crying, so burdened for these families. :crying:

 

As a new mom, I received Babywise and To Train Up a Child as gifts.

 

I followed Babywise pretty strictly with my first born and that has led to more regrets as a parent than any other thing I've done in my life. (Thankfully I never followed the Pearl's advice on spanking babies, etc.)

 

I wish I could talk with new moms about my heart in this...and maybe someday I will be able to.

 

I regret CIO and wish I could go back and rock my babies just one more time.

I regret the spankings my oldest received from about 2-5yrs of age.

I regret my harsh, authoritarian attitude.

I really regret spanking at all.

 

Honestly, when I was given these books (10 years ago) all I heard around me was how great they were. I didn't know any better. (I live in the heart of the Bible belt and if you aren't from around here, you would be shocked by those who still have the idea that if you are a CHRISTIAN parent, you have to spank.)

 

I feel like I ruined my relationship with my oldest daughter forever...we still have lots of behavior issues with her and I blame myself. I pray that someday we can be close despite my failings as a mom.

 

I know God's grace is bigger than my parenting mistakes - and I cling to that daily. I thank Him that He allowed me to have my eyes opened while I do still have my kids at home with me.

 

I know God is a God of restoration and pray that He will redeem these years that I regret...

 

I hope that at some point, even just one mom can hear my story and take it to heart. It literally breaks my heart that there are still so many parents using these methods.

Edited October 3, 2011 by CandaceC

[Denisemomof4]

THAT should be MUCH easier for us than for most people considering we're Jehovah's Witnesses :)

(I have still noticed a bit more stress and money spending in December for reasons I don't understand)

We actually have a family day this month (on the 16th), but we can keep that a bit lower key also.

 

I may have figured out the Sept thing to some degree. They were reunited with parents (from foster care) last September. Of course, that would have put my little guy at 2½ years old, but as I've been researching the last several months, even babies seem to be able to "remember."

 

that very well could be it. My dd was 14 months old when we got her in May, on dh's and my 15th wedding anniversary. May was a month she'd act out every year initially, but it's been a few years now that May isn't affected. She used to be HORRID in March. Her birthday is 3/9, although we'll never really know WHEN she was actually born. I think she was awful in March because that's when she was abandoned. REMEMBER (for those of you who don't understand this) babies are FULLY BONDED to their mothers while they're growing in their bodies. They know the mother's voice, there is that instant bond/connection after the birth. To be a baby that loves their mother, then to be wrapped in a blanket and left on a street - babies really don't forget that. Anyway, after doing some research (I don't remember my source) we decided to NEVER celebrate her birthday on the 9th. If we did, she'd go out of her way to be HORRID and sabotage her day. We celebrate before or after now, and she never even knows DURING her celebration that it's for her birthday. Last year the family went to see Lion King in Boston, out to dinner, and on the way home in the car we told her it was her birthday celebration. Presents followed at home. That was a month and a half before her birthday. :lol: She had NO idea, so she couldn't ruin it!!! We had our first good/normal Christmas last year. Summer is always a target for pee/poo issues. This year we made it to September before they started, and they only lasted three days. :party: I don't know why summer is horrid for her.

 

You'll probably begin to see a pattern.

 

You're a wise woman with a huge heart!:grouphug:

[wuttadeal]

As a new mom, I received Babywise and To Train Up a Child as gifts.

 

 

 

I regret CIO and wish I could go back and rock my babies just one more time.

I regret the spankings my oldest received from about 2-5yrs of age.

I regret my harsh, authoritarian attitude.

I really regret spanking at all.

 

Honestly, when I was given these books (10 years ago) all I heard around me was how great they were. I didn't know any better. (I live in the heart of the Bible belt and if you aren't from around here, you would be shocked by those who still have the idea that if you are a CHRISTIAN parent, you have to spank.)

 

I feel like I ruined my relationship with my oldest daughter forever...we still have lots of behavior issues with her and I blame myself. I pray that someday we can be close despite my failings as a mom.

 

I know God's grace is bigger than my parenting mistakes - and I cling to that daily. I thank Him that He allowed me to have my eyes opened while I do still have my kids at home with me.

 

I know God is a God of restoration and pray that He will redeem these years that I regret...

 

I hope that at some point, even just one mom can hear my story and take it to heart. It literally breaks my heart that there are still so many parents using these methods.

:iagree:

[Pamela H in Texas]

Denise,

 

I want to thank you for all the time and effort put into your posts. This is absolutely what we wanted to do. Sometimes it is a bit overwhelming, scary, and/or frustrating though. And it seems everything goes "off" at the same time. All five of these kids (the three plus my other sibling group) are having a time of it right now, a couple issues per kid. Why can't they take turns? And could they let me sleep? I'm EXHAUSTED.

 

I agree with the poster who said how nice it was that such a tragic situation could lead to the support of some other moms. It is wonderful.

[Denisemomof4]

Denise,

 

I want to thank you for all the time and effort put into your posts. This is absolutely what we wanted to do. Sometimes it is a bit overwhelming, scary, and/or frustrating though. And it seems everything goes "off" at the same time. All five of these kids (the three plus my other sibling group) are having a time of it right now, a couple issues per kid. Why can't they take turns? And could they let me sleep? I'm EXHAUSTED.

 

I agree with the poster who said how nice it was that such a tragic situation could lead to the support of some other moms. It is wonderful.

 

I've spoken to another RAD mom offline, and she is the one who pointed out to me that RAD kid's behaviors can set off other kid's behaviors, even those that don't have RAD. I can't imagine having five kids with issues to deal with!!!:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I do hope you can get sleep. It does the body good.;) more:grouphug:

[FaithManor]

I've spoken to another RAD mom offline, and she is the one who pointed out to me that RAD kid's behaviors can set off other kid's behaviors, even those that don't have RAD. I can't imagine having five kids with issues to deal with!!!:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I do hope you can get sleep. It does the body good.;) more:grouphug:

 

 

Pamela, I can SOOOOOOO attest to this and I am not raising a RAD child. I used to do respite care for foster families who had RAD children. One RAD child was very capable of setting off psychological episodes in otherwise non-RAD children or children with normal psyches. It is amazing to me. Most of the foster families I did respite for had to sort of "divide and conquer" so to speak. When the RAD child was in an episode, he/she would be "tomato staked" to a parent (usually mom), while the other parent or a respite care worker (if one could be found) kept the other children away as much as possible. It helped them remain calmer and focused. One family, for their three year old, also had "the play place", which was a cordoned off area he could be placed in and couldn't escape from or hurt himself...soft toys, soft books, interesting things hanging from the ceiling to look at, and mozart playing in the background, so that when mom was alone, she had somewhere to place him when she must attend to something that would only set him off or when another child really needed her undivided attention. They had sound proofing in the room to help deafen the noise if he had a tantrum, but she carried a baby monitor (turned low) so she could hear him at all times. It wasn't perfect. But, when balancing the needs of many children at once, it served its purpose and he was safe. I know that one weekend in particular while she and their older children took a much needed mini-vacation, that safety place was my life-line...it's a lot to juggle for anyone, and much worse for the respite care provider who is trying to keep straight the histories and set-points of children from multiple families.

 

I don't know if your house has a floor-plan that would allow you to make the "safe-place", but if possible, you might want to try it.

 

As a music therapist, I did get reports that families felt that dimmer lighting combined with soft, classical music, helped their children overcome emotional melt-downs more quickly. Vivaldi, Mozart, Chopin, and Debussey seemed to be work best. One caution though....I would suggest that for young children you create a cd of works in 4/4 time (ie. no waltzes or what I call "lilting" patterns). The reason for this is that 3/4, 6/8, 3/8, 4/8, 5/8, and 9/8 times are all beats which go against the heart. The heart beats in 4/4 time. Other meters and irregular meters are proven to increase heart-rate. This is not what you want to use as a calming mechanism. You want slow 4/4 or slow 2/4. One Beethoven work, the Adagio from Sonata Pathetique, is also excellent...listening to it invariably lowers heart and respiration rates which help the child regain control. If you would like, I could take the time tomorrow to come up with a list of appropriate tunes. Some of the littles that I worked with slept with their music on all night long. It helped them feel less lonely in the room, but it also helped keep their heart/resipration rates down in moments of wakefullness. Above all else, don't use music with lyrics. The words, sounds of singing voices, is a stimulant to the brain and creates more wakefullness in an overstimulated child.

 

Blessings to you and your husband,

Faith

[Heather in Neverland]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Thank you to all who have been posting links and such...I have read most of it, crying, so burdened for these families. :crying:

 

As a new mom, I received Babywise and To Train Up a Child as gifts.

 

I followed Babywise pretty strictly with my first born and that has led to more regrets as a parent than any other thing I've done in my life. (Thankfully I never followed the Pearl's advice on spanking babies, etc.)

 

I wish I could talk with new moms about my heart in this...and maybe someday I will be able to.

 

I regret CIO and wish I could go back and rock my babies just one more time.

I regret the spankings my oldest received from about 2-5yrs of age.

I regret my harsh, authoritarian attitude.

I really regret spanking at all.

 

Honestly, when I was given these books (10 years ago) all I heard around me was how great they were. I didn't know any better. (I live in the heart of the Bible belt and if you aren't from around here, you would be shocked by those who still have the idea that if you are a CHRISTIAN parent, you have to spank.)

 

I feel like I ruined my relationship with my oldest daughter forever...we still have lots of behavior issues with her and I blame myself. I pray that someday we can be close despite my failings as a mom.

 

I know God's grace is bigger than my parenting mistakes - and I cling to that daily. I thank Him that He allowed me to have my eyes opened while I do still have my kids at home with me.

 

I know God is a God of restoration and pray that He will redeem these years that I regret...

 

I hope that at some point, even just one mom can hear my story and take it to heart. It literally breaks my heart that there are still so many parents using these methods.

[sassyscrapperinid]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I'm so sorry for you, my friend.

 

I also want to point out that adopted kids can make the bio kids suffer with nothing physical involved at all.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Thanks Denise.... and yeah I didnt even mention the other ways bio kids are effected aside from possible physical abuse. Its just a sad situation all around.

But thanks. Hope things are going better for you and your family. :001_smile:

[sassyscrapperinid]

I know a sweet woman who has gone through some RAD training. She's hoping to foster/adopt soon. The training truly doesn't prepare anyone for the REAL LIFE issues that the family will endure. She is probably like I was, thinking that my outpouring of love would be enough. :glare:

 

I know I've spoken numerous times about the struggles my RAD kid has had, and the hell our family has been through. I hope I've also let it be known that with all the resources out there (online support groups, tele-counseling, books, TONS of books, the internet) that I've been able to help my dd tremendously. She's SO MUCH BETTER, but it's still hard when she hits the rough spots.

Yeah, I remember saying to my husband before we got them that we had enough love to go around. LOL And I had never even heard of RAD. I just think it would have been nice to know ahead of time. It's not like real life, but it would have been nice to know.

 

[gardenmom5]

I just thought it was EXTREMELY ironic for someone to say they hoped a child would learn healthy familial habits while in foster care.

 

considering the abuse in the family home - most foster homes would be better than the williams.

 

This may sound ignorant of me but I never considered sending a child to bed without supper occasionally something that could potentially turn food into a weapon, but I can see after you said that how if that is true, it could be the foundation for an unhealthy relationship with food. There are alot of obese people in this world though, and I doubt it's because they all had to skip a meal as a punishment when they were young.

 

here, you worked so hard - have some ice cream. boy you had a bad day, have some cake. or whatever the latest "here have some food to celebrate" with. there are many reasons people develop an unhealthy relationship with food. I will not take away nutritious food from a hungry child (ice cream, sure. they can eat something healthy first). In regards to forcing a child to miss a meal as punishment not being abuse - well, there are degree's to everything.

 

I wanted to ask too, is that we used to attend a church where fasting for a day once a month was expected... Not the young kids but certainly the 8 and over crowd were expected to be encouraged to fast if not at least to fast one of the meals for that day.

 

fasting with a purpose (e.g. developing a closer relationship with God) can help to focus attention on something higher than ourself, and it truely is no longer about food. (and there was one study finding that it's actually healthy for the GI to get cleared out occasionally) fasting because we're encouraged to skip a couple meal's once a month with no other purpose in sight but skipping meals is only starving ourselves and serves no useful purpose.

[gardenmom5]

Memories associated with a traumatic event are "set down" differently than memories not associated with trauma. Babies and toddlers (typically thought of as at a "pre memory" stage) can absolutely carry a neurological imprint of traumatic events into the future.

.

 

This is very interesting to me. When my youngest was six weeks old, he awoke SCREAMING bloody murder. Six week olds do. not. scream. that way. I couldn't figure out what was wrong - I concluded it was a nightmare, but of course, conventional wisdom is babies dont' remember things and don't have nightmares. He spent six days in the NICU with tubes, wires, and hot lights and hardly ever being allowed to be picked up. (once he was home, he got held ALOT.) I thought there was a part of him remembering that experience.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Faith, thank you so much for the information! I never would have thought of the timing issue of the music. I hate to ask you to do anything extra, but a list sure would be nice!

 

My son, as a toddler, *freaked* if the music had words. At the time, I liked listening to the Christian radio station but every time, he screamed. I put on classical music and sometimes he still acted "off," but most of the time he was better. So we stuck with that for years! (btw, ds is on the spectrum)

 

Anyway, I was hoping that if I could find something just right for the kids, I could pipe it into their room low to help keep them calm. My mom told me to try this one thing (calming rhythms) she uses, but it bothers me so I'm afraid to try it with them.

 

I had that Adagio from Beethoven's Sonata Pathetique playing earlier and felt a lot better (I've been a bit upset this afternoon). It really helped me become more regulated!

 

Anyway, and now I know how to use the timing when picking melodies from our songbook (like a hymnal) too.

 

Thanks again.

[historically accurate]

As a music therapist, I did get reports that families felt that dimmer lighting combined with soft, classical music, helped their children overcome emotional melt-downs more quickly. Vivaldi, Mozart, Chopin, and Debussey seemed to be work best. One caution though....I would suggest that for young children you create a cd of works in 4/4 time (ie. no waltzes or what I call "lilting" patterns). The reason for this is that 3/4, 6/8, 3/8, 4/8, 5/8, and 9/8 times are all beats which go against the heart. The heart beats in 4/4 time. Other meters and irregular meters are proven to increase heart-rate. This is not what you want to use as a calming mechanism. You want slow 4/4 or slow 2/4. One Beethoven work, the Adagio from Sonata Pathetique, is also excellent...listening to it invariably lowers heart and respiration rates which help the child regain control. If you would like, I could take the time tomorrow to come up with a list of appropriate tunes. Some of the littles that I worked with slept with their music on all night long. It helped them feel less lonely in the room, but it also helped keep their heart/resipration rates down in moments of wakefullness. Above all else, don't use music with lyrics. The words, sounds of singing voices, is a stimulant to the brain and creates more wakefullness in an overstimulated child.

 

Blessings to you and your husband,

Faith

 

 

I would love a list, too, Faith, as I have a dd who has anxiety problems. She responds well to music, but I don't have a clue which music would be better.

[mo2]

As a music therapist, I did get reports that families felt that dimmer lighting combined with soft, classical music, helped their children overcome emotional melt-downs more quickly. Vivaldi, Mozart, Chopin, and Debussey seemed to be work best. One caution though....I would suggest that for young children you create a cd of works in 4/4 time (ie. no waltzes or what I call "lilting" patterns). The reason for this is that 3/4, 6/8, 3/8, 4/8, 5/8, and 9/8 times are all beats which go against the heart. The heart beats in 4/4 time. Other meters and irregular meters are proven to increase heart-rate. This is not what you want to use as a calming mechanism. You want slow 4/4 or slow 2/4. One Beethoven work, the Adagio from Sonata Pathetique, is also excellent...listening to it invariably lowers heart and respiration rates which help the child regain control. If you would like, I could take the time tomorrow to come up with a list of appropriate tunes. Some of the littles that I worked with slept with their music on all night long. It helped them feel less lonely in the room, but it also helped keep their heart/resipration rates down in moments of wakefullness. Above all else, don't use music with lyrics. The words, sounds of singing voices, is a stimulant to the brain and creates more wakefullness in an overstimulated child.

 

Blessings to you and your husband,

Faith

 

This is fascinating. Do you think music could help soothe a child with SPD meltdowns? I would have no idea what would be 4/4 timing, so if you do make a list, please post it on the thread so we all can see it. What a fabulous idea, and there would be absolutely *no harm* in trying it.

[Denisemomof4]

I would love a list, too, Faith, as I have a dd who has anxiety problems. She responds well to music, but I don't have a clue which music would be better.

 

yes, could you please post it for all of us? Just last week dd8 told me she is sleeping through the night (no fears) but she's waking up in the morning feeling anxious. I'm certain she has had PTSD since the day we got her, but I never notice that she's feeling anxious. Poor baby!

[Denisemomof4]

This is fascinating. Do you think music could help soothe a child with SPD meltdowns? I would have no idea what would be 4/4 timing, so if you do make a list, please post it on the thread so we all can see it. What a fabulous idea, and there would be absolutely *no harm* in trying it.

 

just to let you know, there is music therapy and listening therapy that have helped kids with a myriad of issues. It's been so long since I've read about it all so I can't post more helpful info. on it.

[gardenmom5]

I would love a list, too, Faith, as I have a dd who has anxiety problems. She responds well to music, but I don't have a clue which music would be better.

:iagree: me too, me too ( or is that me three?)

[gardenmom5]

just to let you know, there is music therapy and listening therapy that have helped kids with a myriad of issues. It's been so long since I've read about it all so I can't post more helpful info. on it.

 

My son did tomatis - which is a type of listening therapy. fabulous. One mom said if someone had told her taking a black cat out into the woods under a full moon and swinging it around her head, she'd have been more willingly to believe it would help.

 

We LOVE tomatis. saw huge breakthroughs.

[FaithManor]

:iagree: me too, me too ( or is that me three?)

 

Okay everyone, I'd be happy to put together a list tomorrow. I'll do it while ds is working on his science test and post it sometime tomorrow afternoon.

 

I'll put it in a new thread, something such as "Music list for music therapy" so that you will all be able to find it. If you want to P.M. me, I'll be able to send the list to you personally late Tuesday evening after dh and I get done doing the church treasurer stuff.

 

I haven't gotten to do any music therapy for quite a while. Since we've moved, homeschooling and our house renovation have completely consumed me along with MIL moving to the area and our science pursuits with 4-H. I'm actually quite excited to have a brief outlet for that part of my personality. My non-traditional music students/clients were my all-time favorite punkins. My normies just weren't challenging enough!

 

Anyway, I'll get it too you as soon as I can. Also, if anyone is interested, I can also make up a list of other music therapies besides just the listening/calming basics. I used to do some really unusual things that included kids being stripped down to their skivvies, placed stomach down on a coconut or almond oiled smooth board (shower boards were my favorite), in the dark with very, very little ambient light, and played soft music to them (it's a beautiful thing to allow your fingers to float over the keys while playing Debussey in the dark - Claire deLune being my favorite). The board was usually placed under the soundboard of the piano so the child could feel the vibrations of the piano through the floor and move effortlessly on the board while the music helped control respiration and heart rate. It was a regression to the womb exercise for reprogramming the brain. We kept soft ear phones on the child while I played so that the sound was muted - as close to hearing through water and dense tissue as possible. Sometimes the mom would give the child a soft massage during that time. It was pure bonding time and removed all distractions from the child (sight being the big distractor) while allowing the brain to have a fleeting feel of being a baby again in the care of mommy's warm body. At times, mom and child would lay chest to chest. It can be considered controversial with an older child because of laws concerning booK to child contact (topless) and so I never recommended the chest to chest part with a child over three years of age - though I think it could have been effective. But, I have to say that it seemed to be a excellent re-programming tool for bonding.

 

Oh, and just so you know, I am not a licensed music therapist. I happened into it by circumstance. In our area, one would have to travel a 100 miles south to find a licensed music therapist and they charge around $100.00 an hr. not billable to medical insurance or the state for foster care. Some foster parents could pay it out of the per diem if they could manage the travel. But, most of the time it was out of the question. Additionally, music therapy isn't just used for emotional issues. Visual re-training is another facet and many opthalmologists would recommend it for certain conditions, but again, no one practiced in our area. I was known as the "innovative, creative" music teacher in the county and was approached by a parent with a severely ADHD child about trying something, anything. I dove in with both feet, did a boatload of research, and gave it a whirl. He and I loved each other immensely and I was able to help him a bit. This lead to that parent telling some parents of aspies and well, many on the spectrum. That's how my autistic children came to me. Then FAS/FAE was next - by far my most challenging because so many of them had short-term memory fritzes and yet high enough IQ to really be able to learn to play an instrument and the desire to do so - crazy challenging, followed by RAD, followed bi-polar, followed by an 8 year old with schizophrenia (well, that was the best diagnosis they could get - schizophrenia in a child so young being considered a controversial finding), followed by my spina bifida student, and then several kids with visual processing disorders - eyes that didn't track properly and made reading very, very difficult. All of these conditions, I had to research and learn what worked by trial and error because there wasn't a licensed practitioner around.

 

So, please understand. Given the number of years that I had a very active music studio full of "therapy kids" and the amount of research I did, I definitely practiced "music therapy". But, I only charged a piddly rate - essentially what I charged my regular music students per hr. because I wasn't an "expert" in the licensing sense of the word and many of my parents were pretty desperate and low on funds. For all that I may have helped my kiddoes, I am pretty certain that in the end they blessed me much more for having the opportunity to know them, learn about them, and love them, than I ever blessed them. It was one of the most extraordinary periods of my life.

 

That's my disclaimer. Don't get involved with anything I suggest if you want the Ph.D behind it. All I have to offer is a B.A. in piano performance and music ed backed with a lot of years of adventurous experiences with extra special children and their desperate parents to go with it.

 

Faith

[TXMary2]

I really can't read this whole thread because I'll want to vomit, so apologies if this has been posted already.

 

This article talks about the other children they have: http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Sedro-Woolley-couple-charged-with-child-death-2196403.php

 

Also, I am going to be completely flippant (because really - I can't deal with the idea of starving a 13 year old girl to death. I just can't), and point out that the Pearls are against adopting children that are older than any of your other children. And their reasons are upsetting: http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/2010/august/09/avoiding-vacuums/ - about half way down the page, you can read Michael's opinion on adoption:

 

Where does this moron get his facts about children in orphanages? I personally can't stand this guy - what little I know of him. His wife's fake smile creeps me out. I have the Helpmeet book and could never finish it because so much felt so wrong. I have friends who swear by the Helpmeet book and they have even said that the uncomfortable feeling I had reading the book was because I was being convicted. No, I am pretty sure that wasn't it. I just don't discuss the book when it comes up for discussion in my circle of friends. Unless I know of a horribly abusive situation they may be in, I just have the "to each her own" attitude.

 

The book was a gift from one of the friends, btw. I was also given the Train Up a Child book as well. I threw it away because I didn't want it reaching another household. I have made plenty of parenting mistakes, some due to the advice in that book, but certainly nothing drastic.

[FO4UR]

Okay everyone, I'd be happy to put together a list tomorrow.

 

Faith

 

 

:bigear:

 

I am highly interested in any links/book recs also...fellow Music Ed major here...in need of something new to research and learn.

[gardenmom5]

I have friends who swear by the Helpmeet book and they have even said that the uncomfortable feeling I had reading the book was because I was being convicted.

considering how ungodly the pearl's "wisdom" is - more like you were being warned by the True God and listened.

 

I threw it away because I didn't want it reaching another household. .

it does burn well and contributes to reducing heating costs if you have a woodstove.

[mommyrooch]

This is disgusting! My heart breaks for both of those precious kids. That poor, sweet little girl.

[mo2]

Okay everyone, I'd be happy to put together a list tomorrow. I'll do it while ds is working on his science test and post it sometime tomorrow afternoon.

 

I'll put it in a new thread, something such as "Music list for music therapy" so that you will all be able to find it. If you want to P.M. me, I'll be able to send the list to you personally late Tuesday evening after dh and I get done doing the church treasurer stuff.

 

I haven't gotten to do any music therapy for quite a while. Since we've moved, homeschooling and our house renovation have completely consumed me along with MIL moving to the area and our science pursuits with 4-H. I'm actually quite excited to have a brief outlet for that part of my personality. My non-traditional music students/clients were my all-time favorite punkins. My normies just weren't challenging enough!

 

Anyway, I'll get it too you as soon as I can. Also, if anyone is interested, I can also make up a list of other music therapies besides just the listening/calming basics. I used to do some really unusual things that included kids being stripped down to their skivvies, placed stomach down on a coconut or almond oiled smooth board (shower boards were my favorite), in the dark with very, very little ambient light, and played soft music to them (it's a beautiful thing to allow your fingers to float over the keys while playing Debussey in the dark - Claire deLune being my favorite). The board was usually placed under the soundboard of the piano so the child could feel the vibrations of the piano through the floor and move effortlessly on the board while the music helped control respiration and heart rate. It was a regression to the womb exercise for reprogramming the brain. We kept soft ear phones on the child while I played so that the sound was muted - as close to hearing through water and dense tissue as possible. Sometimes the mom would give the child a soft massage during that time. It was pure bonding time and removed all distractions from the child (sight being the big distractor) while allowing the brain to have a fleeting feel of being a baby again in the care of mommy's warm body. At times, mom and child would lay chest to chest. It can be considered controversial with an older child because of laws concerning booK to child contact (topless) and so I never recommended the chest to chest part with a child over three years of age - though I think it could have been effective. But, I have to say that it seemed to be a excellent re-programming tool for bonding.

 

Oh, and just so you know, I am not a licensed music therapist. I happened into it by circumstance. In our area, one would have to travel a 100 miles south to find a licensed music therapist and they charge around $100.00 an hr. not billable to medical insurance or the state for foster care. Some foster parents could pay it out of the per diem if they could manage the travel. But, most of the time it was out of the question. Additionally, music therapy isn't just used for emotional issues. Visual re-training is another facet and many opthalmologists would recommend it for certain conditions, but again, no one practiced in our area. I was known as the "innovative, creative" music teacher in the county and was approached by a parent with a severely ADHD child about trying something, anything. I dove in with both feet, did a boatload of research, and gave it a whirl. He and I loved each other immensely and I was able to help him a bit. This lead to that parent telling some parents of aspies and well, many on the spectrum. That's how my autistic children came to me. Then FAS/FAE was next - by far my most challenging because so many of them had short-term memory fritzes and yet high enough IQ to really be able to learn to play an instrument and the desire to do so - crazy challenging, followed by RAD, followed bi-polar, followed by an 8 year old with schizophrenia (well, that was the best diagnosis they could get - schizophrenia in a child so young being considered a controversial finding), followed by my spina bifida student, and then several kids with visual processing disorders - eyes that didn't track properly and made reading very, very difficult. All of these conditions, I had to research and learn what worked by trial and error because there wasn't a licensed practitioner around.

 

So, please understand. Given the number of years that I had a very active music studio full of "therapy kids" and the amount of research I did, I definitely practiced "music therapy". But, I only charged a piddly rate - essentially what I charged my regular music students per hr. because I wasn't an "expert" in the licensing sense of the word and many of my parents were pretty desperate and low on funds. For all that I may have helped my kiddoes, I am pretty certain that in the end they blessed me much more for having the opportunity to know them, learn about them, and love them, than I ever blessed them. It was one of the most extraordinary periods of my life.

 

That's my disclaimer. Don't get involved with anything I suggest if you want the Ph.D behind it. All I have to offer is a B.A. in piano performance and music ed backed with a lot of years of adventurous experiences with extra special children and their desperate parents to go with it.

 

Faith

 

Faith, this really is interesting. I would love to hear anything you want to share about the subject.

[Donna A.]

Where does this moron get his facts about children in orphanages? I personally can't stand this guy - what little I know of him. His wife's fake smile creeps me out. I have the Helpmeet book and could never finish it because so much felt so wrong. I have friends who swear by the Helpmeet book and they have even said that the uncomfortable feeling I had reading the book was because I was being convicted. No, I am pretty sure that wasn't it. I just don't discuss the book when it comes up for discussion in my circle of friends. Unless I know of a horribly abusive situation they may be in, I just have the "to each her own" attitude.

 

The book was a gift from one of the friends, btw. I was also given the Train Up a Child book as well. I threw it away because I didn't want it reaching another household. I have made plenty of parenting mistakes, some due to the advice in that book, but certainly nothing drastic.

 

I could've written your post. And that's probably all I'd better say. :tongue_smilie:

[ktgrok]

I don't think often about the devil. A few years ago I would have said I didn't think there was such a thing. But people like the Pearls have convinced me there is one, and he is working through them.

[littleWMN]

Denise,

 

I want to thank you for all the time and effort put into your posts. This is absolutely what we wanted to do. Sometimes it is a bit overwhelming, scary, and/or frustrating though. And it seems everything goes "off" at the same time. All five of these kids (the three plus my other sibling group) are having a time of it right now, a couple issues per kid. Why can't they take turns? And could they let me sleep? I'm EXHAUSTED.

 

I agree with the poster who said how nice it was that such a tragic situation could lead to the support of some other moms. It is wonderful.

 

That was me. :) The reason I said it is because I've fostered and adopted myself. We have two children that were adopted as infants and still see behaviors of inattachment in both of them (in different ways). It include constant lying, some pretending, feelings of abandonment from one of them, thinking Mom is the bad guy, Dad is all good), etc.

 

I'm actually interested in the telecoinseling you mentioned Denise. Is that the Heather you linked to before? Can you give me more info? Cost? I need someone to talk to about the issues revolving around the abandonment struggles. I've tried everything...