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Another family using Pearl techniques...


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just to let you know, there is music therapy and listening therapy that have helped kids with a myriad of issues. It's been so long since I've read about it all so I can't post more helpful info. on it.

 

Yes! One of my kids has been doing listening therapy for a few weeks and it's helping her SO much already!!

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considering the abuse in the family home - most foster homes would be better than the williams.

 

 

 

here, you worked so hard - have some ice cream. boy you had a bad day, have some cake. or whatever the latest "here have some food to celebrate" with. there are many reasons people develop an unhealthy relationship with food. I will not take away nutritious food from a hungry child (ice cream, sure. they can eat something healthy first). In regards to forcing a child to miss a meal as punishment not being abuse - well, there are degree's to everything.

 

 

 

fasting with a purpose (e.g. developing a closer relationship with God) can help to focus attention on something higher than ourself, and it truely is no longer about food. (and there was one study finding that it's actually healthy for the GI to get cleared out occasionally) fasting because we're encouraged to skip a couple meal's once a month with no other purpose in sight but skipping meals is only starving ourselves and serves no useful purpose.

 

 

I would agree that SOME foster care homes are probably better than the Williams home. However, with my adopted son, he was not molested prior to foster care so.... See, my 5 adopted children were separated and placed into 3 foster homes. Only one of those was a descent home.

The degrees I think is something thats not even considered. Sometimes what is abuse and whats not is obvious. Is a child really starving after having breakfast, lunch and snacks, but is sent to bed without dinner? And as far as fasting goes, I doubt a child really grips the idea of skipping a meal making you "closer to god". I dont doubt that it may be healthy for your GI to skip a meal once in a while, all the more making the question of is a skipped meal abusive? I still say no.

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Thanks Faith. I look forward to seeing the list. :001_smile:


 

Okay everyone, I'd be happy to put together a list tomorrow. I'll do it while ds is working on his science test and post it sometime tomorrow afternoon.

 

I'll put it in a new thread, something such as "Music list for music therapy" so that you will all be able to find it. If you want to P.M. me, I'll be able to send the list to you personally late Tuesday evening after dh and I get done doing the church treasurer stuff.

 

I haven't gotten to do any music therapy for quite a while. Since we've moved, homeschooling and our house renovation have completely consumed me along with MIL moving to the area and our science pursuits with 4-H. I'm actually quite excited to have a brief outlet for that part of my personality. My non-traditional music students/clients were my all-time favorite punkins. My normies just weren't challenging enough!

 

Anyway, I'll get it too you as soon as I can. Also, if anyone is interested, I can also make up a list of other music therapies besides just the listening/calming basics. I used to do some really unusual things that included kids being stripped down to their skivvies, placed stomach down on a coconut or almond oiled smooth board (shower boards were my favorite), in the dark with very, very little ambient light, and played soft music to them (it's a beautiful thing to allow your fingers to float over the keys while playing Debussey in the dark - Claire deLune being my favorite). The board was usually placed under the soundboard of the piano so the child could feel the vibrations of the piano through the floor and move effortlessly on the board while the music helped control respiration and heart rate. It was a regression to the womb exercise for reprogramming the brain. We kept soft ear phones on the child while I played so that the sound was muted - as close to hearing through water and dense tissue as possible. Sometimes the mom would give the child a soft massage during that time. It was pure bonding time and removed all distractions from the child (sight being the big distractor) while allowing the brain to have a fleeting feel of being a baby again in the care of mommy's warm body. At times, mom and child would lay chest to chest. It can be considered controversial with an older child because of laws concerning booK to child contact (topless) and so I never recommended the chest to chest part with a child over three years of age - though I think it could have been effective. But, I have to say that it seemed to be a excellent re-programming tool for bonding.

 

Oh, and just so you know, I am not a licensed music therapist. I happened into it by circumstance. In our area, one would have to travel a 100 miles south to find a licensed music therapist and they charge around $100.00 an hr. not billable to medical insurance or the state for foster care. Some foster parents could pay it out of the per diem if they could manage the travel. But, most of the time it was out of the question. Additionally, music therapy isn't just used for emotional issues. Visual re-training is another facet and many opthalmologists would recommend it for certain conditions, but again, no one practiced in our area. I was known as the "innovative, creative" music teacher in the county and was approached by a parent with a severely ADHD child about trying something, anything. I dove in with both feet, did a boatload of research, and gave it a whirl. He and I loved each other immensely and I was able to help him a bit. This lead to that parent telling some parents of aspies and well, many on the spectrum. That's how my autistic children came to me. Then FAS/FAE was next - by far my most challenging because so many of them had short-term memory fritzes and yet high enough IQ to really be able to learn to play an instrument and the desire to do so - crazy challenging, followed by RAD, followed bi-polar, followed by an 8 year old with schizophrenia (well, that was the best diagnosis they could get - schizophrenia in a child so young being considered a controversial finding), followed by my spina bifida student, and then several kids with visual processing disorders - eyes that didn't track properly and made reading very, very difficult. All of these conditions, I had to research and learn what worked by trial and error because there wasn't a licensed practitioner around.

 

So, please understand. Given the number of years that I had a very active music studio full of "therapy kids" and the amount of research I did, I definitely practiced "music therapy". But, I only charged a piddly rate - essentially what I charged my regular music students per hr. because I wasn't an "expert" in the licensing sense of the word and many of my parents were pretty desperate and low on funds. For all that I may have helped my kiddoes, I am pretty certain that in the end they blessed me much more for having the opportunity to know them, learn about them, and love them, than I ever blessed them. It was one of the most extraordinary periods of my life.

 

That's my disclaimer. Don't get involved with anything I suggest if you want the Ph.D behind it. All I have to offer is a B.A. in piano performance and music ed backed with a lot of years of adventurous experiences with extra special children and their desperate parents to go with it.

 

Faith

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yes, could you please post it for all of us? Just last week dd8 told me she is sleeping through the night (no fears) but she's waking up in the morning feeling anxious. I'm certain she has had PTSD since the day we got her, but I never notice that she's feeling anxious. Poor baby!

 

I know I'm not a part of this conversation, but since you mentioned PTSD, have you tried EMDR? They can do it on even nonverbal children, and it can work WONDERS. I tried it myself, not at all expecting it to work, and not in any way trying to make it work. I was suddenly so much calmer in everyday life, the contrast was so stark. It certainly doesn't cure everything, but wow, it's worth trying!

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That was me. :) The reason I said it is because I've fostered and adopted myself. We have two children that were adopted as infants and still see behaviors of inattachment in both of them (in different ways). It include constant lying, some pretending, feelings of abandonment from one of them, thinking Mom is the bad guy, Dad is all good), etc.

 

I'm actually interested in the telecoinseling you mentioned Denise. Is that the Heather you linked to before? Can you give me more info? Cost? I need someone to talk to about the issues revolving around the abandonment struggles. I've tried everything...

 

yes, it was with Heather Forbes. You can find her by doing a google search. It was $120 per hour, and she could break it down by minutes, too. Initially you're probably going to need the full hour.

 

She also has a yahoo group that could help you. There are probably trained therapists on it just as there are on many of the groups.

 

Also check into the consciously parenting project. They had teleconferences where people around the world would call in with questions/concerns, and it all was lead by a trained therapist or a mom trained to lead these. They went up in price significantly since they first started doing them.

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I know I'm not a part of this conversation, but since you mentioned PTSD, have you tried EMDR? They can do it on even nonverbal children, and it can work WONDERS. I tried it myself, not at all expecting it to work, and not in any way trying to make it work. I was suddenly so much calmer in everyday life, the contrast was so stark. It certainly doesn't cure everything, but wow, it's worth trying!

 

Thanks for mentioning this. I had read years ago about it for PTSD. My only concern with this is that there's a very real chance that she could have clear memories of the abuse she likely suffered through if she went through it. That's why I haven't even tried, because with some of the things I've read, and knowing about some of the conditions in orphanages, I just don't think I should risk it. I have been reading about tapping, and I believe that will produce similar results. Dh and I also bought neurofeedback equipment, which I know can work wonders. We have the first level of equipment, but the second level requires extensive training, and dh and I can't do it right now.

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Denise,

 

You have to decide what you believe is best for your daughter, but....A lot of times the unknown is more haunting than the known. So it would hurt and be awful for her to learn of her past, but it may be able to allow her a different level of healing.

 

I have a situation for myself like this. There is NO doubt, based on my behavior as a child and some things that have happened since, that I was abused in a way I cannot remember. I also had hints of it watching this person with a child 12 years my junior. I know there is *something* because people don't do what I did without there being a precipitating factor. It drives me nuts that I just can't figure it out. I wish I could remember rather than have pieces of junk floating through my head. Also, I have pretty much come up with a story, but what if it was much different?

 

Bottom line, I just wish I knew.

 

This is a real fear for me with "the three" also. I would hate that they might have so many gaps in their early history that are playing out and will play out in their lives if they aren't mindful about not letting it happen that way. Additionally, I would hate for them to think that at any time, they weren't safe here.

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Denise,

 

You have to decide what you believe is best for your daughter, but....A lot of times the unknown is more haunting than the known. So it would hurt and be awful for her to learn of her past, but it may be able to allow her a different level of healing.

 

I have a situation for myself like this. There is NO doubt, based on my behavior as a child and some things that have happened since, that I was abused in a way I cannot remember. I also had hints of it watching this person with a child 12 years my junior. I know there is *something* because people don't do what I did without there being a precipitating factor. It drives me nuts that I just can't figure it out. I wish I could remember rather than have pieces of junk floating through my head. Also, I have pretty much come up with a story, but what if it was much different?

 

Bottom line, I just wish I knew.

 

This is a real fear for me with "the three" also. I would hate that they might have so many gaps in their early history that are playing out and will play out in their lives if they aren't mindful about not letting it happen that way. Additionally, I would hate for them to think that at any time, they weren't safe here.

 

that's certainly something to think about. I haven't done any reading on this in at least 3 years now. I need to check into this all to refresh my memory. I know we bought the neurofeedback equipment, which was expensive, because I was certain it would help her. And I know tapping helps traumatized people. It calms them without bringing the memories to the forefront.

 

I was going to do EMDR to help my own PTSD I got from a near death experience. I had heavy warnings ahead of time, and I found that to not have all the pieces myself to my own story was easier to live with than to have the entire situation unfold before my eyes (mind) so I never went through with it. I have total peace from my decision. I understand your point, but I also came to the conclusion for me that I didn't want to know more than I already did. What I did know was horrifying enough.

 

She has calmed SIGNIFICANTLY through the years. I was surprised to hear her tell me sometimes she wakes up anxious. I never even thought to clarify if it was anxious as in excited to get started, or anxious as in nervous.

 

What calms her and keeps her regulated more than anything is a scheduled day, not much activity going on outside, and no stress in the home. She rarely shows signs of anxiety then.

 

Now that I think of it, she had the toileting issues in Sept, and she had the anxiety in Sept. Sept. has never been a difficult month for us before, but I think she just delayed her summer issues into Sept this year. So I'm not surprised, now that I think of it, that she felt anxious.

 

I probably wouldn't have put those two together without this post!

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yes, it was with Heather Forbes. You can find her by doing a google search. It was $120 per hour, and she could break it down by minutes, too. Initially you're probably going to need the full hour.

 

She also has a yahoo group that could help you. There are probably trained therapists on it just as there are on many of the groups.

 

Also check into the consciously parenting project. They had teleconferences where people around the world would call in with questions/concerns, and it all was lead by a trained therapist or a mom trained to lead these. They went up in price significantly since they first started doing them.

 

Thank you! This helps a lot.

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Thanks for mentioning this. I had read years ago about it for PTSD. My only concern with this is that there's a very real chance that she could have clear memories of the abuse she likely suffered through if she went through it. That's why I haven't even tried, because with some of the things I've read, and knowing about some of the conditions in orphanages, I just don't think I should risk it. I have been reading about tapping, and I believe that will produce similar results. Dh and I also bought neurofeedback equipment, which I know can work wonders. We have the first level of equipment, but the second level requires extensive training, and dh and I can't do it right now.

 

The thing is, even if you don't know all the details of a traumatic past, those facts may still be affecting you to whatever extent that they will, whether you are aware or not. Your subconscious is already aware, and your anxiety, depression, whatever are living proof of that. The EMDR session may be upsetting, but through the process, you are finally able to LET GO of the trauma of the memory. You will be aware of what happened, but it won't cause anxiety anymore. It's not being aware of what happened that affects us today, it's the anxiety around the memory, you know? Just something to think about.

 

I was going to do EMDR to help my own PTSD I got from a near death experience. I had heavy warnings ahead of time, and I found that to not have all the pieces myself to my own story was easier to live with than to have the entire situation unfold before my eyes (mind) so I never went through with it. I have total peace from my decision. I understand your point, but I also came to the conclusion for me that I didn't want to know more than I already did. What I did know was horrifying enough.

 

For me, it is worse to be affected by memories that I don't have than to be aware of the truth. My past is my own, and whatever bad things happened, it was MY experience. To have that taken away because of self preservation, even though my coping techniques didn't help me become a happy, relaxed person anyway, is traumatic in and of itself. And like I said before, these events affect me today whether I am conscious of them or not. I care more about having peace than I do about not knowing the details of a trauma. And anyway, not knowing the details certainly doesn't make me unware that I had a hard childhood. :glare: Again, just something to think about. I've followed your posts about your dd, and I am so relieved to hear that things are going relatively well right now for you and her. :grouphug:

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RaeAnne wrote things so much better.

 

One consideration, Denise, would be to just open up a dialog with dd. Of course, when to do this would be when you feel she is ready for it. At 13, I kinda think she's big enough to help make decisions; but all kids are a bit different and we all know that children with tough pasts often have emotional ages much younger than their chronological ages.

 

Anyway....

 

UPDATE here: Munchkin has not thrown up since Sunday morning. I kinda expected a phone call when he went back to school yesterday. Instead, he ramped other things up at school including hitting his teacher, ripping off his glasses to break them (SO glad I got him the ti-flex), etc. Teacher reports everything else was as bad as normal. Sorry for her.

 

I do need to talk to her further though because I don't like her new discipline technique (this is a classroom where they use no time out, loss of recess, pulling cards, etc). She started telling him that Mama wouldn't be happy which she said would help him do better temporarily. To me, that is simply inappropriate. I'm trying to attach to these children and though I've let the children know I'm not happy with something, threatening them with it to coerce them to behave, is not appropriate. Of course, the fact that he'll respond even momentarily MAY mean he *is* attaching and cares. Or it may mean he's so desperate out of fear of losing yet another mother or her love...... Regardless, I just think it is wrong.

 

I am so unhappy with this classroom. I feel it isn't structured enough. It is too loud. The teacher is inconsistent with response. There isn't enough supervision. And now this. My other fs is in the other class and it is night and day. But I can't have both boys in the same class due to other issues. Maybe we'll get some more insight at parent-teacher conferences next week.

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RaeAnne wrote things so much better.

 

UPDATE here:

I do need to talk to her further though because I don't like her new discipline technique (this is a classroom where they use no time out, loss of recess, pulling cards, etc). She started telling him that Mama wouldn't be happy which she said would help him do better temporarily. To me, that is simply inappropriate. I'm trying to attach to these children and though I've let the children know I'm not happy with something, threatening them with it to coerce them to behave, is not appropriate. Of course, the fact that he'll respond even momentarily MAY mean he *is* attaching and cares. Or it may mean he's so desperate out of fear of losing yet another mother or her love...... Regardless, I just think it is wrong.

 

I am so unhappy with this classroom. I feel it isn't structured enough. It is too loud. The teacher is inconsistent with response. There isn't enough supervision. And now this. My other fs is in the other class and it is night and day. But I can't have both boys in the same class due to other issues. Maybe we'll get some more insight at parent-teacher conferences next week.

 

 

Pamela, I don't blame you one.little.bit. Emotional manipulation is not a very good strategy for discipline under the best of circumstances, and in your case, it's horrible. I hope you jump on that! He needs a classroom with a teacher who exercises better judgment and possibly more experience with extra-challenging kiddoes. Of course, I've never understood the "unstructured" concept of teaching.

 

It's hard if you have another teacher who is a better fit, but cannot have both boys in the same class. I get that completely...kiddoes who have gone through what they've experienced have a tendancy to spark inappropriate behavior in each other.

 

Blessings to you for being their mom and fighting the good fight on their behalf.

 

Faith

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To throw out a hippie option, energy work is an option for dealing with emotional trauma of any kind. The Emotion Code was my intro to the idea, and it was at my local library. (This particular book does operate on the assumption that there is a God, FYI.) I do some of ours & we see a pro for the big issues. My friend resolved a lot of her adopted son's issues with it, and keeps doing it when things crop up (like new abandonment upset when she visited relatives overnight, etc).

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The thing is, even if you don't know all the details of a traumatic past, those facts may still be affecting you to whatever extent that they will, whether you are aware or not. Your subconscious is already aware, and your anxiety, depression, whatever are living proof of that. The EMDR session may be upsetting, but through the process, you are finally able to LET GO of the trauma of the memory. You will be aware of what happened, but it won't cause anxiety anymore. It's not being aware of what happened that affects us today, it's the anxiety around the memory, you know? Just something to think about.

 

 

 

For me, it is worse to be affected by memories that I don't have than to be aware of the truth. My past is my own, and whatever bad things happened, it was MY experience. To have that taken away because of self preservation, even though my coping techniques didn't help me become a happy, relaxed person anyway, is traumatic in and of itself. And like I said before, these events affect me today whether I am conscious of them or not. I care more about having peace than I do about not knowing the details of a trauma. And anyway, not knowing the details certainly doesn't make me unware that I had a hard childhood. :glare: Again, just something to think about. I've followed your posts about your dd, and I am so relieved to hear that things are going relatively well right now for you and her. :grouphug:

 

I understand what you're saying. I want to acknowledge your post, but I'm really sooooooo tired and can't think clearly. I need to think about everything you've said, and honestly, before I do a THING, I need to read about raising kids with trauma in their past. I spent years researching attaching, RAD, how to help, different therapies, etc. It was a couple of years into my research, if I remember right, that trauma started to truly be discussed. I was SO tired of research at that point that I just couldn't research trauma in and of itself. But as time goes on, I truly believe it's something I need to read about and understand. If I do that, then I will be better equipped to make a decision.

 

Right now. I've been in an all day co-op, screaming kids, aching feet, brain fog from not eating enough. I really can't even think clearly, so I will have to revisit this thought again tomorrow.

 

Thank you for writing this all out. I'm wondering, did you do EMDR yourself, and if so, why do you think it is that you don't have full memory of your horrific childhood?

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

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RaeAnne wrote things so much better.

 

One consideration, Denise, would be to just open up a dialog with dd. Of course, when to do this would be when you feel she is ready for it. At 13, I kinda think she's big enough to help make decisions; but all kids are a bit different and we all know that children with tough pasts often have emotional ages much younger than their chronological ages.

 

Anyway....

 

UPDATE here: Munchkin has not thrown up since Sunday morning. I kinda expected a phone call when he went back to school yesterday. Instead, he ramped other things up at school including hitting his teacher, ripping off his glasses to break them (SO glad I got him the ti-flex), etc. Teacher reports everything else was as bad as normal. Sorry for her.

 

I do need to talk to her further though because I don't like her new discipline technique (this is a classroom where they use no time out, loss of recess, pulling cards, etc). She started telling him that Mama wouldn't be happy which she said would help him do better temporarily. To me, that is simply inappropriate. I'm trying to attach to these children and though I've let the children know I'm not happy with something, threatening them with it to coerce them to behave, is not appropriate. Of course, the fact that he'll respond even momentarily MAY mean he *is* attaching and cares. Or it may mean he's so desperate out of fear of losing yet another mother or her love...... Regardless, I just think it is wrong.

 

I am so unhappy with this classroom. I feel it isn't structured enough. It is too loud. The teacher is inconsistent with response. There isn't enough supervision. And now this. My other fs is in the other class and it is night and day. But I can't have both boys in the same class due to other issues. Maybe we'll get some more insight at parent-teacher conferences next week.

 

Pamela, do you have any good reads for raising traumatized kids? Which do you recommend?

 

I will go through my emails to look for something a wonderful woman sent me. She raised 4 kids of her own and then adopted 18 kids from disrupted adoptions. She and I have spoken on the phone a few times and have shared emails. WONDERFUL woman. She sent me a letter one of her kid's therapist created for her to give to the child's teachers. I think it would help you. Also, of you look online, I know I've found sample letters to teachers written by Nancy Thomas herself.

 

When dd was in preschool, I actually gave packets of info. on RAD to her teachers to help them to understand. They truly couldn't fathom my little angel had any issue at all because she was a perfect little peach at school. :glare:

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To throw out a hippie option, energy work is an option for dealing with emotional trauma of any kind. The Emotion Code was my intro to the idea, and it was at my local library. (This particular book does operate on the assumption that there is a God, FYI.) I do some of ours & we see a pro for the big issues. My friend resolved a lot of her adopted son's issues with it, and keeps doing it when things crop up (like new abandonment upset when she visited relatives overnight, etc).

 

this is very interesting. It's probably a foreign concept to most people who will read your post, but I've read about various alternative therapies which have proven hugely beneficial to many adopted kids with severe behavioral issues. Thanks! I just read some of the reviews on Amazon. I'm intrigued!

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Thank you for writing this all out. I'm wondering, did you do EMDR yourself, and if so, why do you think it is that you don't have full memory of your horrific childhood?

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I don't want to say horrific, just very unstable. My mom was bipolar (undiagnosed/treated) and an alcoholic. I think I might have more memories of one particular summer spent with a friend than I do of my entire childhood. I just know that I've blocked a lot of stuff out. Anyway, when I did EMDR, my therapist had me do specific memories that I found traumatic. Each memory was addressed individually. His philosophy was that key traumatic memories, once addressed, will usually clear the anxiety in general. I never told him I wanted to work on memories that I didn't have. Maybe I should have. :001_smile: I wasn't cured of every single thing, but I felt calmer, like there was less noise in my head, almost immediately. Things that upset me just didn't seem that important anymore. I'm still myself (i.e. passionate ;)), but I feel a lot more in control. But no, for me, it didn't uncover anything. Maybe because I'm not sure I have specific, traumatic events overall. Maybe a good analogy would be that your dd wasn't ever fed enough (?). It's not one specific thing, it's just how she had to live life for a long period of time, and that is what made it so traumatic. I hope that makes sense.

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