A doctor took my 8 year olds in a room alone for a "talking"

[YLVD]

It doesn't sound like the anger issue some are making it into. The kid wasn't yelling, he wasn't throwing things, he just was seething, because he found out some WOMAN that he doesn't know was going to be looking at his "junk". Hello people!!!! Of course he was upset!!! But he didn't yell or shout or whatever. Then when he was not where his mom could hear him he said something about hating his mom. I can totally see a kid mumbling that. He was going to be violated sexually as far as he was concerned, and his mom was going to let it happen!

 

I know a lot of you say that your child would never say they hate you. Are you SURE they have never said it when out of your earshot? This kid didn't say it to his mom. He said it behind her back. I'm sure I said that, or something similar, many times as a kid, behind my mom's back.

 

Again, I think people are not realizing that in this kid's view he was going to be sexually violated with his mom's permission. Getting upset seems reasonable.

 

Yes, I'm sure. But, my DD is a bit atypical in that she pretty much won't say anything bad about anyone and tends to see the world as a happy, rosy place and she's 15. She gets mad at me when I get irritated with drivers on the road. That doesn't make me some super mom, that's just her personality.

 

I was quite possibly the worst teen in the world and I remember thinking it a few times but never said it out loud.

 

I actually think it's worse that he said it behind her back, tbh. At least if it's in front of you, it's often done to incite a reaction.

 

I'm sure her son is fine but I do think it's something to pay attention to. I don't see anything wrong with a doctor commenting on it or talking to him. Sometimes kids need to hear that from another authority figure.

 

I will say that the boy should have the right to express his discomfort with the exam and perhaps refuse at this young age.

[AuntieM]

Okay, I have only read two pages of replies, but I have to say what I find most shocking is the fact that so many replies think that what that doc did was in any way okay!

 

Yes, other people in my life may tell me my child has an anger management problem. That is, any person who has a developed relationship with my family. Not a one-shot Sally with an authority complex.

 

And a nekkid exam on an EIGHT YEAR OLD without a parent present? No way!

 

I have run into these kinds of docs before. I move along to the next practice. OP, I suggest you do the same.

 

Until the Nanny State is in full control, I will fully exercise my parental rights AND responsibilities.

[angel marie]

honestly i think the intentions were good, but could have been handled better by md. i think if md would have taken a little more time in finding history of incident and getting some info from mom--like if this kind of thing happens alot, the outcome would have been better for everyone.

 

i would have talked to mom alone and gotten the above needed info. if happens alot, offer counseling to help and give some providers names that i think are worthy. next, if i thought the child needed to hear something from me, i would have discussed this plan with mom, made sure it was okay with her, and then talked to child in front of mom about being polite etc...

 

as far as the sexual abuse...it doesn't sound like he was looking for this based on info that mom gave and what the doc discussed with kids without her--so i don't think he was suspecting this at all even though "yes" a child not wanting an exam of private parts COULD be a sign of this abuse. the child's response is a normal response given the subject matter.

i am a nurse and worked as a school nurse for a few years. i had to deal without alot of this kind of thing.

mom, sorry the situation went down like this. the only thing i am happy about is they seemed to go the extra mile to help. it just needs to be done appropiately!

[AuntieM]

I couldn't imagine it either -- although out of my two sons the one who did it is the more likely.

 

He's never done anything remotely like this before. Ever. Never. It seemed obvious to me afterwards that it was situational.

 

I'm looking for family practitioner. I had no idea some did and some didn't do private part checks.

 

Alley

 

Keep in mind your son's point of view. Perhaps he felt he was about to be completely humiliated in front of an unfamiliar female. I'm pretty sure that makes an evil word like "hate" a bit easier to slip out. Just sayin....

[funschooler5]

Okay, I have only read two pages of replies, but I have to say what I find most shocking is the fact that so many replies think that what that doc did was in any way okay!

 

Yes, other people in my life may tell me my child has an anger management problem. That is, any person who has a developed relationship with my family. Not a one-shot Sally with an authority complex.

 

And a nekkid exam on an EIGHT YEAR OLD without a parent present? No way!

I have run into these kinds of docs before. I move along to the next practice. OP, I suggest you do the same.

 

Until the Nanny State is in full control, I will fully exercise my parental rights AND responsibilities.

 

:iagree:

Especially with the bolded. Is this normal for child exams? I admit we don't do regular checkups past 1 year in our family, but our kids have been to the doctor for various illnesses over the years. I would be shocked if the doctor asked any of them to fully disrobe. And if it was needed for some reason, I would expect a warning ahead of time, and I would expect to be in the same room when it happened.

[cindergretta]

:001_huh: Wow, reading through this thread makes me feel like a derailed train. :confused:

 

OP, I wouldn't get all wound up about one of my dc muttering they hate me when they find themselves in a freaky and unexpected situation where they think it might actually be my fault. We don't have that "culture" in our family where hate is some big bugaboo, either. We talk about what it means and the strength behind using it, but I don't :willy_nilly: or :svengo: because an immature human being with limited expression skills mutters the word hate.

 

In terms of the dr, while I can appreciate that maybe she thought she was "helping" me, I would be irritated. We have seen the same ped for 17+ years and she would speak to *me* and *ask* me if I wanted her to have a discussion with said child. She would *never* have me leave the room for any reason and she never has. The parent leaving is *always* up to the child. Period.

 

I'm sorry you found yourself in such a cruddy situation and then got blind sided again here. :grouphug:

[woolybear]

I agree with this. I think it is fine for someone else to speak up about inappropriate behavior with kids.

 

I agree and I also think it might be more powerful if they said it in front of the mom. That way the kids know that mom knows and that the doctor and the parent appear to be on the same side.

[YLVD]

I agree and I also think it might be more powerful if they said it in front of the mom. That way the kids know that mom knows and that the doctor and the parent appear to be on the same side.

 

:iagree:

[5LittleMonkeys]

My dc don't go into the exam room without me. I also don't need the village raising my dc.

 

If the doctor had concerns she should have discussed them with you. She could have asked you if you wanted her to talk to them but imo had no right to circumnavigate your parental rights and talk to them about something without your permission.

 

What if a doctor took it upon themselves to discuss pre-marital sex and contraception with your 10 year old because your dc off-handedly mentioned to the nurse that he\she had a boyfriend\girlfriend? Yes, telling a child not to say they hate their mother and talking to them about sex are not the same thing, but who gets to decide where the line of unacceptable is? Shouldn't the parent get to decide what is acceptable and what isn't for their own child?

 

I'm sorry, OP, that you had to get blindsided with that and I hope you will find a family doctor that respects your rights as a parent.:grouphug:

[*********]

I don't know. I can't imagine my 8 year old saying "I hate my mom" about anything. I think that is unusual for an 8 yo, so I can see the doctor exploring that a little more.

 

Ok, I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this. I honestly can't imagine my son saying that, and if he did, I just have no idea how I'd react. It would be so completely, well, unacceptable! Let's just say that the doctor wouldn't need to give him a 'talking to', I'd be handling that on my own.

 

I, as a rule, do not allow my small boys alone with medical professionals. I don't think it's wise. My job as a mom is to protect my kids, and there's no 'law of the universe' that says a child molester cannot be an x-ray tech, a nurse, or even a doctor. Just sayin'.

[Barb_]

I agree and I also think it might be more powerful if they said it in front of the mom. That way the kids know that mom knows and that the doctor and the parent appear to be on the same side.

 

Good point.

[Unicorn.]

Barb, just so you know, I don't tolerate it either. But I have heard many a child say it, mine included. My comment was in response to so many saying that the child had an anger problem and would hurt his family when he grew up. I find that utterly ridiculous. At 8 yrs old, he felt betrayed, scared, angry and had a momentary lapse of self control.

[Snickerdoodle]

Again, I think people are not realizing that in this kid's view he was going to be sexually violated with his mom's permission. Getting upset seems reasonable.

 

 

This is what came to my mind.

Patients have the right (as do parents on their behalf) to refuse parts of exams. You/your son could have said, "I refuse the testicle exam".

 

I bet the boy didn't realize that. Hence, his frustration.

[FairProspects]

:001_huh: Wow, reading through this thread makes me feel like a derailed train. :confused:

 

OP, I wouldn't get all wound up about one of my dc muttering they hate me when they find themselves in a freaky and unexpected situation where they think it might actually be my fault. We don't have that "culture" in our family where hate is some big bugaboo, either. We talk about what it means and the strength behind using it, but I don't :willy_nilly: or :svengo: because an immature human being with limited expression skills mutters the word hate.

 

 

I'm sorry you found yourself in such a cruddy situation and then got blind sided again here. :grouphug:

 

:iagree: Sorry OP :grouphug:.

[TranquilMind]

Keep in mind your son's point of view. Perhaps he felt he was about to be completely humiliated in front of an unfamiliar female. I'm pretty sure that makes an evil word like "hate" a bit easier to slip out. Just sayin....

 

No kidding!

 

It is almost like hardly anyone is looking at this from the kid's point of view. This IS an outrage and a violation, especially unforeseen.

 

And to those who say it is normal, I'd find another doctor. No doctor has ever looked at my 15 year old daughter in that area yet, except right after birth to be sure all the parts were normal. And I went in with my kids and the doctor expected it, at the Sports Exams we do. My son only got examined that way for the first time a couple of months ago at 12.5, because he plays a contact sport and hernia checks are required for the sign off. He was upset too, and refused at first. I didn't realize it was going to happen. I've told this story but he began arguing that HE HAD RIGHTS, and THIS WASN'T THE AIRPORT! My doctor fortunately found this pretty funny as he had a childhood friend who was always insisting that he had rights, who went on to become a well known trial attorney.

 

At any rate, with some encouragement, he agreed to do it, and I stepped out in the hall. 10 seconds, cough, and it was over and the doctor called me back in.

 

This is my doctor of 30 years, who cared for my parents, siblings, husband and myself and now my kids. Some unknown doctor taking off with my EIGHT year olds and removing ME? H3LL, NO!

[Jan in SC]

I'm a little confused. You were in the room for the private part exam? If so, then what did the doctor ask you that made you leave?

 

As a mom of three boys, mine are always checked "down there" at a physical. It actually caught a hernia before it got too bad. Urine samples are always taken by our lab, too.

 

I think it's weird that she asked you to leave, but I think she was trying to stick up for you. Did you tell her that he was reacting to the fact that you told him the private exam and cup peeing wouldn't happen? If told, my ped would have laughed at the response and then tell him why it was important and what was being checked.

[Nakia]

Well, our family must be completely weird because all 3 of my girls have told me they hate me before. All kids test their parents and say things they don't mean, and I guess that is one way mine have demonstrated that. I don't get worked up about it; I just tell them that "hate" is a really strong word, and they need to make sure they are using the correct words to express their feelings. No biggie. My oldest two haven't said it in a long time, but my 5 year old said it last week.

 

Anyway to the OP, I'm sorry that happened. I think it is incredibly inappropriate for a physician to speak to an 8 year old without you present. Sure, you should have said no, but of course, you know that now. Chin up, girl! It will be okay!

[Barb_]

Barb, just so you know, I don't tolerate it either. But I have heard many a child say it, mine included. My comment was in response to so many saying that the child had an anger problem and would hurt his family when he grew up. I find that utterly ridiculous. At 8 yrs old, he felt betrayed, scared, angry and had a momentary lapse of self control.

 

I get it :001_smile: I was one who said that based on the OP the son could have a problem, especially if this type of reaction was a recurring theme. I'm willing (and happy) to be wrong about that. But that was my honest initial reaction and I thought it was important to say because there is always the possibility that the one closest to the situation has the toughest time seeing. KWIM?

[Sputterduck]

I would be thrilled if someone like a doctor took my son aside for a talking to if he said something like that to me. Thrilled. I want him to know that other people will react to his behavior, not just mom. I can see why other wouldn't feel that way.

 

I can also see why your son would be outraged. It's *his* body. He has a right to feel upset if someone he doesn't know is going to touch him and he doesn't want them to. Of course, we all have to be seen by a doc at some point for things of that nature. But he still has a right to have a very strong opinion about it, and the right to say no.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Sputterduck

[TranquilMind]

ktgrok: It doesn't sound like the anger issue some are making it into. The kid wasn't yelling, he wasn't throwing things, he just was seething, because he found out some WOMAN that he doesn't know was going to be looking at his "junk". Hello people!!!! Of course he was upset!!! But he didn't yell or shout or whatever. Then when he was not where his mom could hear him he said something about hating his mom. I can totally see a kid mumbling that. He was going to be violated sexually as far as he was concerned, and his mom was going to let it happen!

 

No freaking kidding. I can't believe all this, "The doctor was right to follow through on this "anger problem" I am hearing here.

 

I know a lot of you say that your child would never say they hate you. Are you SURE they have never said it when out of your earshot? This kid didn't say it to his mom. He said it behind her back. I'm sure I said that, or something similar, many times as a kid, behind my mom's back.

 

No kidding. I'm glad everyone else has such perfect kids who would never say anything like this when an unknown woman was going to feel them up for reasons not understood to them with Mom's permission.

 

Mine would fight back, I hope.

 

Again, I think people are not realizing that in this kid's view he was going to be sexually violated with his mom's permission. Getting upset seems reasonable.

 

YES! It would be more worrisome if he just said, "Great!"

[Brigitte]

I didn't hear him say this. He's never said it to be before.

 

Does anyone ever read the original post??????????????????????

 

Thank you to the supportive people -- yes, I was blindsided because a) I didn't hear him say the I hate you thing and b) I'd never heard it before. Ever. I was something of a deer in headlights.

 

Alley

 

The problem as I see it is the doctor should have asked you what his temperament is like, is this normal for him, etc. She should not tell you he has "anger issues" without knowing more of his history. If my kid told me to my face that he hated me, I would correct him and move on because I understand the situation at hand that caused that irrational outburst. It would bother me as a mom, however, that my kid told someone else that he hated me. That does seem pretty strong and the other person does not know all the history behind the comment. The "talking to" the doctor gave the boys probably was appropriate, in that case. Given the responsibility and liability that is placed on the medical community, I would not be over the top angry with the doctor. However, your relationship and your children's relationship with the doctor are now tainted, so you probably should find another doctor. :grouphug:

[Sahamamama]

I'd refuse this. Nobody "sends me away" from my kids.

 

:iagree:Yes, this. Over my cold, dead body do you separate my young children from me at a medical, vision, or dental visit, for any reason, except for going into the OR for surgery (and even then, my husband can get into some ORs, because he works in them). Otherwise, I stay with them.

 

My husband, who has worked with doctors, nurses, techs, etc. for nearly 20 years matter-of-factly says that health care professionals are legally required to investigate further if there is suspected abuse (e.g., "suspicious bruises"). This might mean a private examination in which the child is separated from the parent. Also, he says that there are at times medical reasons for examining private parts, especially in boys (and if your son is a new patient, the doctor might not know if certain parts have "come down").

 

My take on this is a bit more maternal. :glare: I'm trying to imagine my 6.5 year old being told out of the blue to take off her underwear and let herself be examined by the doctor "down there," while I step out of the room. I know she would react in a similar fashion to your son, though I don't think she would say, "I hate my mom." Probably she would cry, if she had to go through it, but she wouldn't, because I would NOT leave the room. Nor would there be such an exam, without a very good reason for it. :glare:

 

We went to the ocean this summer (around the time of the hurricanes, of course). The surf was so strong, the girls barely went near the water. When I tried to rinse off my oldest, a wave knocked her over. She came up spluttering, "I hate the ocean!"

 

It was fear. Nothing but fear. Getting knocked over scared her, even though I was right there, holding her in a vice grip. :D

 

OP, IMO your son said what he said out of fear, embarrassment, and loss of control of his own body. I disagree with the way this visit was conducted by the doctor (you should have been forewarned), and I don't think you are over-reacting. :grouphug: FWIW, I would look around for another practice, since you're not too invested in this one.

[Ria]

I would absolutely change doctors. Why in the world was a nurse taking your son to the bathroom instead of you taking him?

 

I'm sure the nurse showed him where the bathroom was and waited outside. Jeez, does an 8-year old need Mommy constantly?

[cindergretta]

I get it :001_smile: I was one who said that based on the OP the son could have a problem, especially if this type of reaction was a recurring theme. I'm willing (and happy) to be wrong about that. But that was my honest initial reaction and I thought it was important to say because there is always the possibility that the one closest to the situation has the toughest time seeing. KWIM?

 

I agree in theory that those closest to a situation may not see it clearly. That said, a doctor who has never met nor interacted with this family isn't going to have any keen insight on them. A regular family doctor who has been seeing the family for a while and knows the dynamic would be thus entitled to have an educated opinion. But someone brand new to the scene? Nope, not in my opinion.

[Cheryl in NM]

My son has never had a private part exam, even when he played football. If it had been required for football I would have instructed him to submit to the exam without attitude or not play.

 

It sounds like this 8 year old had this type of exam before, but was told it wouldn't happen at this appointment. If that is a correct statement, then he had no reason to believe he was going to be sexually molested as a few posted have suggested. I think likening a medical exam with sexual molestation is a severe over-reaction to make a point. It is emotional manipulation and I wish people wouldn't do it.

 

If this child had NOT had an exam like this before this appointment I can understand him being upset. The nurse should have gotten the mother and let the mother explain the medical exam to her son. The mother, at that point, could refuse it. It sounds like the poor mother didn't know this part of the exam would be happening either. This is a lack of communication on the part of the doctor's office.

 

I agree that the dr. talking to the mom should have asked questions instead of assumed. I think the dr. should have asked the mom if she could talk to the son about his disrespectful words. I don't think a dr has the right to remove an 8 year from their parents, even if the dr. suspects abuse, I think he must just report it.

 

OP~I'm sorry your son said he hates you, but you know he didn't mean it. It sounds like he was frustrated and mad and blamed you. It could be a teaching point with him that even when he's mad he should watch his words. I don't think 8 is too young to begin working on that. You could also explain that the talk from the dr was the result of those words.

 

I understand following the dr.s "orders" to leave the room. Those of us raised in a brick & mortar mentality were taught to listen to authority figures first and ask questions later. I still think it's disrespectful for a child to get mouthy and refuse to cooperate in a routine exam. Maybe instruct your son to insist on you being in the room. I don't think the nurse or doctor would be allowed to refuse that.

 

I probably would not return to that doctor. She doesn't seem like a fit for your family. Since the nurse was also involved, that practice might not be a fit for your family. I think next time you will make sure you know what will be involved in the exam and coach your ds accordingly. If something will be included that your not comfortable with refuse it before hand and if they have a problem with that, cancel the appointment. They really don't need annual exams anyway unless there are problems or you are vaccinating. You, as Mom, know when there is a problem. As homeschooling parents, we are usually so involved with our children we know almost everything about them.

 

:grouphug: to you and your son. It was a rough day.

[Shellydon]

Agree. And as far as the people who say they can't imagine their child saying that..I'm kind of shocked. I haven't met a kid yet who doesn't say stuff like that from time to time.

 

 

Really? My kids have never, ever told anyone that they hate them. Not once. Not even a "I don't like you" to a sibling.

[Barb_]

 

We went to the ocean this summer (around the time of the hurricanes, of course). The surf was so strong, the girls barely went near the water. When I tried to rinse off my oldest, a wave knocked her over. She came up spluttering, "I hate the ocean!"

 

It was fear. Nothing but fear. Getting knocked over scared her, even though I was right there, holding her in a vice grip. :D

 

OP, IMO your son said what he said out of fear, embarrassment, and loss of control of his own body. I disagree with the way this visit was conducted by the doctor (you should have been forewarned), and I don't think you are over-reacting. :grouphug: FWIW, I would look around for another practice, since you're not too invested in this one.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. If the child had said, "I hate the doctor's office," or "I hate doctors," or even "I hate YOU!" then I doubt there would have been a blip. But he said, "I hate my mom" and she wasn't even in the room. I think that is what made some of us (and the medical staff) go :001_huh:

[Ria]

Ok, I've read the OP and all the replies.

 

If I am reading this correctly, this is the situation:

 

No one, except the nurse, knows *exactly* what the child said beyond "I hate my mom." There was something else said about math. If anything else was said, we don't know.. We do not know the tone. We do not exactly know the circumstances.

 

As for the nurse:

Perhaps the child's tone was a bit "off" to the nurse. She sees kids daily. She's not naive. Something about what this kid said raised enough of a red flag that she said something to the doctor.

 

As for the doctor:

She's a doctor. She has to intervene...it's her job. (An aside: If you don't want intervention, treat yourselves!) The doc was told something by the nurse. It was enough to cause her to talk to mom and the kids.

 

As for the OP: She took her kids for a well-child visit. It's totally her responsibility to know what goes on at a well-check visit...that's her job as a mom, so that if there are going to be concerns she can address them beforehand. Whatever the reason...forgetfulness, lack of foresight, being passive, whatever....she is not happy with the result of the visit.

 

OP, I feel sorry for the discomfort this caused you. That said, it's one thing for a child to scream at his parents, "I hate you!" It's totally different for a calm child to tell a stranger that he hates his mom and then go off about other things that make his mom mean (math assignments are the only thing mentioned).

 

I think the nurse did her job. The doctor's behavior....well, I feel she was totally correct in talking to you, but the talk with the kids was a bit over the top, but it's great that she addressed the issue with them (I would have preferred to be present if these were my kids). HOWEVER - and here is where that passive stuff comes into play - you could have told her that she was not taking those kids in a room for a talk alone. You didn't.

 

You allowed her to speak to the children alone. I don't think that gives you any room to complain.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Ria

[Catherine]

I personally would be grateful to a person in in authority if they talked to my child and set them straight about what is acceptable.

 

It sounds to me like your son was very angry and did a childish thing-complained about you to an outsider. I did stuff like that when I was immature too. I'm not sure his actions were that worrisome, particularly given that he's "spirited" as you say. But what I'd like to point out is that I'm surprised by the responses that indicate that the doctor's telling the child not to talk about you that way is wrong, because I totally disagree! How I've longed for the times when I knew my child would hear the same cultural message I'm trying to give them, which is that they should express themselves respectfully, from some source other than me. What they tend to hear everywhere is more support in our culture for treating adults disrespectfully and disregarding their needs. I would welcome another source telling them otherwise.

 

I'm sorry that you were so taken by surprise by her actions. I hope you can perceive them in another light.

[Rebecca VA]

Alley, were you expecting everyone to completely agree with you? For you to get angry because some of the posters have different takes on this situation is a little unrealistic. No one is being hateful to you, and no one is blindsiding you. You've been around this board long enough to realize that we collectively have a wide range of opinions and experiences.

[cindergretta]

I think you hit the nail on the head. If the child had said, "I hate the doctor's office," or "I hate doctors," or even "I hate YOU!" then I doubt there would have been a blip. But he said, "I hate my mom" and she wasn't even in the room. I think that is what made some of us (and the medical staff) go :001_huh:

 

I feel like I am arguing with you and I really don't mean to. :grouphug: But this doesn't "work" for me, either. He felt like his mother had mislead him and while what he meant was "I hate this situation," what he said was he hated his mom BECAUSE she is the one by whom he felt betrayed AND she is safe. He can have HUGE feelings against her and she will still love him and protect him. Saying he hates this office to the nurse might mean she will be mean to him, in his mind. She isn't safe, nor is this office, near as he can tell. Just my opinion. :)

[Barb_]

I feel like I am arguing with you and I really don't mean to. :grouphug: But this doesn't "work" for me, either. He felt like his mother had mislead him and while what he meant was "I hate this situation," what he said was he hated his mom BECAUSE she is the one by whom he felt betrayed AND she is safe. He can have HUGE feelings against her and she will still love him and protect him. Saying he hates this office to the nurse might mean she will be mean to him, in his mind. She isn't safe, nor is this office, near as he can tell. Just my opinion. :)

 

Pfft. Just discussing. I see your point, but the fact that he didn't say it *to* her but about her (and then went on about Math, etc) seems to remove the "he was lashing out" portion of the equation. At least from the staff's point of view. It's very possible that's exactly the way it went down...he was seriously p*ssed and blamed his mom for taking him there. Then not understanding his own feelings or why he was mad at his mom, he started searching for answers (she makes me do math). But then that circles back to my first post, that maybe he needs some support...some help understanding his own feelings because maybe his first response is just to blame the people closest to him when he has unpleasant feelings. The OP did say he was Sprited. Which is often code for, "has trouble managing his feelings."

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Only the OP knows that. But I think it needed to be said.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I didn't "seem passive." Ds did all of this when I was out of earshot. I didn't hear any of this.

 

Yes, I got the vibe as he was walking away w/ the nurse to do his urine that he was mad. But I didn't hear a word -- or I would have addressed it.

 

"When I had been so passive. . ."

 

I don't know even know what to say to that.

 

Alley

 

Alley - the only thing we can do is to comment based on how we would see it going down if we were in a similar situation.

 

If I was at the doctor with an 8 year old, this is what I see me doing.

 

I would first of all question why an 8 year old had to give a urine sample. Unless I had told them symptoms that pointed to either diabetes or a urinary tract infection, I would not expect this at a well child visit. I would have questioned it and would have helped my own child in the bathroom. I would have helped my child, not because my 8 year old always needs to be with mommy (this is a comment directed toward Ria) but because urine samples have to be done in such a way that the catch is clean and an 8 year old needs some supervision doing that. I would not want a nurse to be providing that kind of supervision. My kids would not have been comfortable with it and neither would I.

 

As for the private exam, if it seemed to be in any way something other than a 2 second check, with me present in the room, then I would not have given my permission. And yes, doctors need my permission to do anything to my underage child.

 

As for taking my children into another room or going into the waiting room, myself. I can't conceive of allowing that. I might come here to vent at the doctor trying to take them but I would have said "no" loudly.

 

As to the comments made by the doctor, I just don't see them as that huge a deal. Recommending counseling isn't that big a deal. If you don't think it's needed, then don't go. Telling your kids to respect you doesn't seem that big a deal either (though taking them into another room is for me).

[Ria]

The OP did say he was Sprited. Which is often code for, "has trouble managing his feelings."

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Only the OP knows that. But I think it needed to be said.

 

:iagree:

 

I've found that moms who claim their kids are "spirited" often have kids with major issues. It does, indeed, seem to be a code for parents who don't want to admit there might be more than just spirit going on.

[justamouse]

I wouldn't let my child go ANYWHERE on a well child check with out me. Period. If they were taking a sample? I should have been told that beforehand, and been given a cup. I can do a clean catch.

 

I think he was angry at his privates being looked at by strangers. I know I would be.

 

I wouldn't go there ever again.

Edited September 29, 2011 by justamouse

[Ria]

Unless I had told them symptoms that pointed to either diabetes or a urinary tract infection, I would not expect this at a well child visit. I would have questioned it and would have helped my own child in the bathroom. I would have helped my child, not because my 8 year old always needs to be with mommy (this is a comment directed toward Ria) but because urine samples have to be done in such a way that the catch is clean and an 8 year old needs some supervision doing that. I would not want a nurse to be providing that kind of supervision.

 

Good catch, Jean. I had not considered the clean catch at all. I understand now and agree...depending on the kid, I think it could have been explained, but I do understand what you are saying.

[Shellydon]

I am surprised that there are doctors that don't do a private part check. I think it is a necessary part of health for the variety of reason mentioned here (descended testicles, fused labia, etc). Also, a prime spot to purposely injure a child is burning them with a cigarette or other object on the perineum, it is hidden and abusers know that. A quick 5 second look with make sure everything looks like it is developing normally and there is no odd scaring just protects a child.

[clarkacademy]

So if this office had done nothing at all and the kid went home and stabbed his mother or something and later the office stated they knew he had anger issues because of behavior well wouldn't everyone kinda be blaming them? Wasn't that one of the big deals of that school shooting? People knew he was angry yet no one did anything? I see this all the time. People keep complaining that no one does anything yet when they do they are wrong for it.

 

Every one knew little Susie was sad and wanted to kill herself but nobody did anything. If a school nurse would be calling CPS people would be screaming mind your own business. I mean I feel sorry for people. Airport security does their job yet I have seen complaints on this board over and over. Well be happy you aren't getting blown up. Kids are not taught to behave and teachers have to deal with them but they are wrong for saying anything to them at the same time. Your kid gets in trouble at co-op for not behaving but the teachers wrong for saying anything.

 

This is a very darned if you do darned if you don't situation.

[Snickerdoodle]

So if this office had done nothing at all and the kid went home and stabbed his mother or something and later the office stated they knew he had anger issues because of behavior well wouldn't everyone kinda be blaming them?

 

Wow, that's a huge leap.

[clarkacademy]

Wow, that's a huge leap.

 

But it is true. If this was on the news right now everyone would be saying how dare that office do nothing. I have seen it over and over.

[WishboneDawn]

Wow, that's a huge leap.

 

Yes, but it might not be far off from what the doctor was thinking.

 

"What might happen in the future if I let this mom and son go home without saying anything?"

[Snickerdoodle]

If the doctor was jaded from seeing so many dysfunctional people in her career, I can imagine it.

 

However, an 8yo behaving in a whiny way doesn't seem extreme to me. Most 8yo's aren't that articulate when expressing their frustrations.

[Laurie4b]

Agree. And as far as the people who say they can't imagine their child saying that..I'm kind of shocked. I haven't met a kid yet who doesn't say stuff like that from time to time. There is no way I would have allowed the doc to talk to my 8 yr olds alone, and no way would I be going back to her.

 

I think this is kind of like the "Shut up!" issue. For some people, it's a way of saying "Be quiet!" and means nothing more. For others, it's horribly rude.

 

Some families assign full meaning to the word "hate" and react accordingly if that word is used. Some over-react. Others would take it on the same level of horror as a kid who said , "I hate green beans." Many parents would interpret an "I hate you" as " I am trying to get back at you emotionally for upsetting me" and would not give it all that much import.

 

In the OP's situation, it clearly meant, "I am really upset with my mother right now" and yes, I would guess because he was upset about the exam,etc.

 

OP: I used to be in children's mental health and for one part of that time worked with THE most violent kids in our state. I do not hear even a hint of anything I would call an "anger problem" in this situation. Strangers, however, alone with the child, may have interpreted his angst at the exam as being emotion typical for his attitude toward you, since they didn't have the context.

 

I wouldn't go back to the practice myself. It's this kind of thing that made me choose an old-fashioned family practitioner. I never had to worry about weird interpretations, secret talks, lectures when my sons cut themselves with penknives, etc. etc.

[cindergretta]

Yes, but it might not be far off from what the doctor was thinking.

 

"What might happen in the future if I let this mom and son go home without saying anything?"

 

First of all, it is a leap.

 

Secondly, kids don't go killing people after one random upset. There is generally a pattern of depression, rage, etc. (Not a kid muttering in what he deems a lousy situation.)

 

Thirdly, if this doctor knew this family *at all,* she would have known if this was a pattern or not.

 

Lastly, if there was a concern that this child was going to go murdering people over his embarassment and immature anger at humiliation, by all means, talk to the parent. Ask the parent what they want to see happen. Talk to the child in front of the parent.

 

And people screaming for someone to be held responsible is part of the problem, not the solution. If there is a series of signs, a history of behaviour, then there might be a paper trail of liability. But a one off? That scares me. What else do we want big brother over seeing?

 

Like a PP said, I don't want the village raising my child *unless* I invite them to.

[9763653]

It's a great shame that our culture has become what it has!! Everyone is under suspicion. Everyone except parents are expected to raise children.

 

Parents are treated as though we know nothing. And Dr's feel they have to be diligent and look for trouble or they will get in trouble themselves.

 

Someone working with children all the time should have been able to grasp what was going on. At least the staff person/nurse should have been able to figure it out. Honestly, I wouldn't go back to that Dr.

 

I'm pretty fed up with Dr's myself these days. (Can you tell?)

 

:iagree:

 

And personally, I would have be fine with my kids refusing an exam of private parts (the urine sample is another matter). Imagine being told you must have your private parts examined and you don't want that. Unless there are specific medical concerns in that area, I don't see any reason for that happening at a well child check-up. I would feel cheated, too, if I were that kid.

 

Many doctors (especially pediatricians) have this "lovely", condescending manner of dealing with parents. That is not acceptable at all.

[Embassy]

It sounds like this 8 year old had this type of exam before, but was told it wouldn't happen at this appointment. If that is a correct statement, then he had no reason to believe he was going to be sexually molested as a few posted have suggested. I think likening a medical exam with sexual molestation is a severe over-reaction to make a point.

 

:iagree: This is a doctor's visit. The doctor is supposed to examine the body and the genital area is part of the body. It is just science - nothing sexual. Sure there are some doctors that abuse, but that is not the norm. If my child had a strong emotional reaction to a doctor's examination of his private area I might wonder why.

[WishboneDawn]

If the doctor was jaded from seeing so many dysfunctional people in her career, I can imagine it.

 

However, an 8yo behaving in a whiny way doesn't seem extreme to me. Most 8yo's aren't that articulate when expressing their frustrations.

 

Neither the doctor nor the OP was privy to how the son sounded when he uttered those words. Just the nurse. So much depends on the tone. The doctor acted on what info she had, which may not have been simply "whiny".

 

And yes, doctors are witness to all sorts of dysfunctional folks but if she were jaded she likely would have brushed it off and ignored it, not taken the time to alert mom and lecture the boys.

[Orthodox6]

[see below]

 

In passing, we always have had male pediatrician for our sons, and female for our daughter. This removes the "embarrassment factor" for the children.

 

Please go easy on me if you don't agree. I'm still pretty stunned and sad.

What I write shall not at all be intended as "being hard on you."

 

In a nutshell, we go to the pediatrician for a well child check. (A new dr. to us, we're in a new state). I haven't figured out that doctors these days do 1) a urine sample and 2) a private part check.

At what point did you find out that this would occur?

 

Okay, so as my very strong willed son is realizing that he has to give a urine sample and a private part check is coming, he becomes irate. But he didn't do anything physical. He didn't yell. He was just mad.

If you allowed the doctor to proceed as announced, then you were granting your permission. Either you did so verbally, or you did so tacitly (by not disagreeing).

If your son had reached "hornet mad stage", then you easily could have rescinded your permission and told the doctor/nurse that it was not a good time for this.

He was very mad because he thought I'd lied to him. I honestly don't remember the drs. doing this every year. Yes, I should know by now.

Cue for telling son that you did not know prior to arrival.

 

Ds takes the cup and goes to the bathroom where the nurse explains what to do. I'm still in the exam room. He apparently tells the nurse, "I hate my mom." And something else inflammatory but I forget now.

Instructions should have been given to your son before he left the room, and the cup given to him to take with him. This is what our doctors do. Your paragraph is written such that it implies the nurse was in the bathroom with your son. If she was, that was wrong. If she was not, then please clarify for us readers, so that we will not express outrage.

 

The nurse apparently relayed the info. to the dr. who doesn't say one word about it until the very end of the exam -- then sends my two sons out and "has a talk w/ me" about ds's anger problem, all that he said (I hate my mom. She gives me too much math etc.)

 

The uptight, not warm female dr. went on about how ds will hurt me when he's a large 16 year old and that maybe he needs to see a counselor.

You have not shared with us what you replied to the doctor. So we cannot evaluate this incident.

Nor do any of us know anything about your boys and their customary behaviour.

 

My take: this "I hate my mom" was situational around the fact that his private area was going to be examined. Situational. He doesn't hate me -- in fact, we're close.

 

Is this kid high spirited? Absolutely. Do I have a ton of books on managing high spirited kids. Yes, I do!

 

So then she sends me to the waiting room and takes both 8 year old boys into the exam room and tell them stuff like, "you need to be more polite to your mom. If you're angry you don't say rude things." etc. etc.

Three cheers for the doctor!

 

I was sitting in the waiting room stunned that my kids were no longer with me.

You could have remained with them.

 

I'm so angry. I get doctors are on the front line for exploring for child abuse, but clearly my kid isn't being abused.

If the doctor lectured your sons about their disrespectful remarks about their mother, she was lecturing your sons, she was not suspecting child abuse.

 

Finally she brought the boys out, gave them a sucker and we left.

 

I want to explain to the doctors that they are not trained in family dynamics. That any idiot could see my kid was angry about the exam. Did he handle it correctly? Obviously not, but honestly, is he the first 8 year old not happy to have a private part exam??

 

Thanks for listening. I'm a warm, loving mom and my boys are, for the most part, wonderful -- and this just came out of the blue.

I hope you can cheer up soon.

 

Alley

[WishboneDawn]

First of all, it is a leap.

 

Secondly, kids don't go killing people after one random upset. There is generally a pattern of depression, rage, etc. (Not a kid muttering in what he deems a lousy situation.)

 

Thirdly, if this doctor knew this family *at all,* she would have known if this was a pattern or not.

 

Lastly, if there was a concern that this child was going to go murdering people over his embarassment and immature anger at humiliation, by all means, talk to the parent. Ask the parent what they want to see happen. Talk to the child in front of the parent.

 

And people screaming for someone to be held responsible is part of the problem, not the solution. If there is a series of signs, a history of behaviour, then there might be a paper trail of liability. But a one off? That scares me. What else do we want big brother over seeing?

 

Like a PP said, I don't want the village raising my child *unless* I invite them to.

 

I think too much is being heaped on this. Big Brother, as a term, means something specific - extreme oversight by the state. This was one doctor addressing a kid who had behaved badly in her private clinic.

 

If someone does not want the village taking a hand in raising her child then perhaps she should not be venturing into other people's huts.

[cindergretta]

I think too much is being heaped on this. Big Brother, as a term, means something specific - extreme oversight by the state. This was one doctor addressing a kid who had behaved badly in her private clinic.

 

If someone does not want the village taking a hand in raising her child then perhaps she should not be venturing into other people's huts.

 

I disagree. Big Brother means all this CYA going on all over the place because everyone is so afraid what everyone else is going to do.

 

And I don't want the village raising my dc, but I do want to be able to safely seek medical care, dental care, or whatever else my family might need without fearing that Big Brother is going to play CYA in case someone might say or do something.