Do you see a strong economic recovery for the U.S. . . .ever?

[Aelwydd]

I do wonder. I think we're all being fed a bunch of pacifying tripe from news media and politicians (from all sides).

 

Food, gas, housing, health care, education--prices are soaring with inflation in every sector. This makes me extremely nervous about the next few years.

 

This website predicts that things will get much worse. A lot of it, I have already read from other sources. Some of it is new. All of it is disturbing. Especially when its laid out like that.

 

So, what say others here? Is this just more hype from doomsdayers? Or are we all being duped by a bunch of soothsayers?

[LittleIzumi]

I think our previous economy was falsely inflated by the paper-shuffling/imaginary money mortgage bubble, so it cannot return to that. The actual economy cannot support the same level of economy & lifestyle. I think it will stabilize, but at a different level--less jobs, higher prices.

[seraphina]

I really don't know. I want to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. My husband's business has actually been doing good the last few years. I am grateful that we have been blessed so we are trying to put money and food away and trying to just generally make our family more self-reliant.

 

I figure it's best to be prepared rather than caught off guard. Honestly though I try not to worry too much because in the end we can only control so much. I do worry though too often about what kind of world my kids will inherit.

[ChristineW]

I really don't know. I want to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. My husband's business has actually been doing good the last few years. I am grateful that we have been blessed so we are trying to put money and food away and trying to just generally make our family more self-reliant.

 

I figure it's best to be prepared rather than caught off guard. Honestly though I try not to worry too much because in the end we can only control so much. I do worry though too often about what kind of world my kids will inherit.

 

:iagree:I've never seen DH so busy at work but all the leading economic indicators are bad. I think it will get better eventually. History is a cycle of busts and booms, but its going to be a slog for the next few years.

 

Christine

[justamouse]

Do I think it's that bad? Yep. But I also think it can change, and quickly.

[elegantlion]

Nationwide? I have hope of things shifting to a new positive normal. I am concerned about the education bubble and have no clue how that would affect the nation.

 

I believe there is hype and BS from the doomsayers and those other people. I don't know if it's going to get worse, or if it's just going to be different.

Edited September 28, 2011 by elegantlion
removing personal info

[BillieBoy]

There are a lot of doomsdayers and soothsayers out there, however we are living in the reality of it. Everyone in this nation has been affected in one way or another.

 

All economies collapse eventually. It's the nature of the structure. I subscribe to the 'this too shall pass' truth.

 

I don't want to get caught with my proverbial pants down so our family strives to be more self-sufficient

 

P.S. I'd be careful not to turn this into a political thread, it's a fine line. ;)

[Caterpiller]

I think it will get worse before it gets better. But then I think I am a doomsdayer by nature, though an optimist in the day to day. LOL How's that? :D

[Aelwydd]

I agree things can change quickly. What I'm wondering is how can this economy be jump started? What can you jump start it with? Housing? No way. Tech? Hardly--that's replacing jobs faster than IT folks from overseas. Health sector? Uh, not with the crushing numbers of uninsured and underinsured peeps. Manufacturing? That ship sailed, like, 20 years ago. To places like Indonesia and Asia.

 

Cutting government spending means also cutting services and sources of income for many unemployed, and that only means a boomerang effect on consumer spending and more shrinkage. My dh got laid off from his job due to spending cuts last month.

 

Yet, we have no choice but to cut spending. At the same time, we need to bring in more income. Raising taxes has the same help/hinder effect in the end that cutting spending does. Helps in some areas, hurts in others.

 

But even if these were, in and of themselves, enough to haul us out, our government is comprised of lots of rich individuals, in both parties, who are hardly in touch with the middle class, and who lack the political will to make hard choices. They'd rather fight and grandstand then solve this problem.

 

And I'm starting to wonder if this problem can be solved. Chris Martenson is a nonpartisan economist that has a course on economics, and he explains the US monetary system, and how and when it was created.

 

Basically, our money is debt. The more money is printed, the more money is incurred. There is no physical hard limit to how much is printed. And the system is predicated upon the future expectation of a bigger economy, more workers, more resources, more everything.

 

I don't think it's realistic to expect our economy, and the global economy to continue to be accommodated endlessly by physical resources, such as oil, gas, precious metals, etc. I don't believe in alchemy. So, when we have mined 99% of our gold reserves, I'm not expecting the earth to suddenly produce another huge deposit. What we have is what we have.

 

And we have had two very expensive wars (Martenson states that a law of economics is that war is always inflationary), combined with cut taxes, a burgeoning Baby Boomer population on the cusp of retiring and ready to draw upon Social Security and Medicare, and all that we have to offset that is...printed paper money. Debt.

 

Which economic sector, precisely, that can bail us out of that reality?

Edited September 28, 2011 by Aelwydd

[Tap]

I think our economy is going to continue shifting for a while. There was a lot of over indulgence that was fueled by credit and the shifting of monies not true wealth. I feel that there are going to be fewer jobs because people will be spending less money. I hope that people will be more frugal and not as wasteful. I would love to see less materialism and a return to purchasing items for quality and longevity instead of trendy items that fade in a season or less.

[Aelwydd]

 

P.S. I'd be careful not to turn this into a political thread, it's a fine line. ;)

 

Yes, I agree. It's my opinion that politicians are all more interested in maintaining the status quo, then making the drastic changes necessary. I hope that everyone will avoid turning this into a party vs. party argument.

 

I'm addressing the economic system, and how folks think the cards will fall in the next several years.

[Aelwydd]

I think our economy is going to continue shifting for a while. There was a lot of over indulgence that was fueled by credit and the shifting of monies not true wealth. I feel that there are going to be fewer jobs because people will be spending less money. I hope that people will be more frugal and not as wasteful. I would love to see less materialism and a return to purchasing items for quality and longevity instead of trendy items that fade in a season or less.

 

This is what I hope for as well.

 

What I'm afraid of, is the middle class pretty much completely disappearing, to be replaced by a serfdom of low-wage, working poor people. Interspersed in these depressed communities, are the occasional enclave of small very wealthy corporate owners and other rich individuals, whose walled off town maintains its own guards with AK-47s to keep out the riff raff of the surrounding ghettos.

 

Basically, reversion to a modern day feudalism.

 

It may seem fantastic, but I don't see how continuing wage depression, and the fact that now 41% of new jobs are "low wage" can continue without serious social repercussions.

[scrappyhappymama]

Yes, I agree. It's my opinion that politicians are all more interested in maintaining the status quo, then making the drastic changes necessary. I hope that everyone will avoid turning this into a party vs. party argument.

 

I'm addressing the economic system, and how folks think the cards will fall in the next several years.

 

I agree that both parties are interested in maintaining the status quo, perhaps variations on the spectrum, but essentially the same ol' same ol'.

 

Which is relevant to my answer to the original question, because if we continue with the current economic model, then I think that, no, we will not have a strong economic recovery at least not anytime soon.

 

Personally, I think that recovery will take some brave leaders who make unpopular decisions to shore up the economic foundations of our country. But it's a rare soul who does not succumb to the corruption and the headiness of power.

[Alenee]

Manufacturing is still VERY feasible in this country and my dh's job is proof of that. People buy new technology and when they do, there are American people behind the jobs that made it happen. Dh's company and those he sells contracts to, are in dire need of skilled workers and have many job openings at this time. The problem is, there aren't any skilled workers. I do wholeheartedly believe that if we (individuals, NOT mandated by the Feds) spend as much money on Science, Technology, Engineering, and Manufacturing programs, aka, STEM programs, within schools and co-ops, as we do on the new technology we carry on our person (aka, cell phones, iPods, iPads, e-readers, etc.), we could see a new boom in manufacturing. THIS is investing in our country's economic future. We need to become a country that produces something, rather than consuming and sitting on our rumps.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Alenee

[Serenade]

I am not very hopeful at the moment.

[Serenade]

I do worry though too often about what kind of world my kids will inherit.

 

I worry about this a lot, too.

[Aelwydd]

Manufacturing is still VERY feasible in this country and my dh's job is proof of that. People buy new technology and when they do, there are American people behind the jobs that made it happen. Dh's company and those he sells contracts to, are in dire need of skilled workers and have many job openings at this time. The problem is, there aren't any skilled workers. I do wholeheartedly believe that if we spend as much money on Science, Technology, Engineering, and Manufacturing programs, aka, STEM programs, within schools and co-ops, as we do on the new technology we carry on our person (aka, cell phones, iPods, iPads, e-readers, etc.), we could see a new boom in manufacturing. THIS is investing in our country's economic future. We need to become a country that produces something, rather than consuming and sitting on our rumps.

 

Look, I don't disagree with you that a boon in manufacturing would help. But, to get that boon, you need:

 

a.) tech education or a system of apprentice laborers

b.) healthy, productive workers

c.) manufacturing materials and resources

d.) commitment to domestic workers on behalf of companies

 

...among other things.

 

To go down that same list, education is being cut, and its union groups that have the best established apprentice system. Union groups are being systematically targeted and probably either eliminated, or eventually made irrelevant, if current trends continue.

 

Healthy, productive workers? Much of the middle class is being priced out of health care altogether. Can't afford it.

 

Resources, as I mentioned, are already growing scarce. Chris Martenson's series The Crash Course talks about how increasingly difficult it is becoming to find and extract minerals and resources all around the world. Note: he is an economist, not an environmentalist.

 

Finally, a commitment to domestic workers? Um, maybe the odd company here and there. But, I grew up in North Carolina, and was there in the 90's to witness firsthand, the drain that NAFTA had on the textiles industry. The state lost 250,000 jobs over the course of several years. Its had to rebuild its economy on other sectors, because most of those jobs have never come back.

 

The bottom line is, I don't think most Americans choose to "sit on their rumps." Most who are unemployed are desperate for work. And when they're working, they consistently work far longer hours, and get far less vacation, then equivalent workers in many other countries. I just read an article the other day, about how many working Americans have not had a vacation in years. Why? They're afraid if they take those days, they'll be seen as less committed to their jobs, and possibly laid off in the future.

 

My dh lost his job last month. He was consistently the most, or one of the top producers, in his job. He worked very hard, and he got rewarded with a pink slip, and a denial for the unemployment he'd paid deductions for for several years. Despite his many years of experience and his knowledge of his field, his best hope for finding another job is in going back to school to finish a degree.

 

It's not the lack of willingness of Americans to work that is the problem.

[BillieBoy]

We need to become a country that produces something, rather than consuming and sitting on our rumps.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Barb_]

I'm old enough to remember the 70's. High unemployment, the oil crisis, deep recession coupled with runaway inflation, low supplies of just about everything...I would argue that things seemed bleaker then. The wheel continues to turn.

 

Barb

[Audrey]

Short answer: no... not until after the empire completes its decline and fall.

[Bootsie]

And when they're working, they consistently work far longer hours, and get far less vacation, then equivalent workers in many other countries. I just read an article the other day, about how many working Americans have not had a vacation in years. Why? They're afraid if they take those days, they'll be seen as less committed to their jobs, and possibly laid off in the future.

 

Yes, Americans are working longer hours and get far less vacation than equivalent workers in countries like Greece, but I wouldn't trade their economy for ours.

[aggieamy]

:iagree:I've never seen DH so busy at work but all the leading economic indicators are bad. I think it will get better eventually. History is a cycle of busts and booms, but its going to be a slog for the next few years.

 

Christine

 

We are starting to see more work also and we aren't in one of the low wage type jobs. We're engineers and I'm starting to see a lot more projects being built. That's creating a lot of jobs of all type (government to oversee the project, construction workers, manufacturing to create the materials, engineers to design it). I'm also seeing the cost of gas decreasing which I think is a good sign.

 

I think our economy is going to continue shifting for a while. There was a lot of over indulgence that was fueled by credit and the shifting of monies not true wealth. I feel that there are going to be fewer jobs because people will be spending less money. I hope that people will be more frugal and not as wasteful. I would love to see less materialism and a return to purchasing items for quality and longevity instead of trendy items that fade in a season or less.

 

Absolutely. Not everyone can afford a BMW. Not everyone can be upper middle class. Live below your means, not above it. Of course, I'm a huge Dave Ramsey person so my rant could go on for awhile.

[Friederike in Persia]

I really don't know. I want to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. My husband's business has actually been doing good the last few years. I am grateful that we have been blessed so we are trying to put money and food away and trying to just generally make our family more self-reliant.

 

I figure it's best to be prepared rather than caught off guard. Honestly though I try not to worry too much because in the end we can only control so much. I do worry though too often about what kind of world my kids will inherit.

 

 

Your picture suits that life philosophy!:001_smile:

[Aelwydd]

Yes, Americans are working longer hours and get far less vacation than equivalent workers in countries like Greece, but I wouldn't trade their economy for ours.

 

Yeah, but they're also working far longer hours than more prosperous countries like Canada. And in the past, Americans have been able to enjoy more leisure time, and still enjoy prosperity. So I don't buy the "American workers are driving our economy into a slump" argument. As far as I can tell, it was irresponsible banking regulations, combined with greed, that did us in.

[Mama Geek]

Only if there are major changes that I don't think this country is yet willing to make.

[asta]

I go along with Switzerland: there aren't only ten oranges. And they don't only exist at the top of the tree. (even if they did - that's what climbing, ladders and changes of seasons are for - to bring some of them closer to the ground)

 

Every orange has seeds. (stay with me)

 

It only takes one seed to grow a whole new tree - and there are many seeds in one orange.

 

It takes hard work, time, and patience to grow orange trees. There is no quick way to do it. When you have started your grove with one seed from one orange when times were bleak and everyone around you said it was never going to ever get better... but now it is decades later and you're told you are supposed to give up a substantial piece of your grove because...

 

There are only ten oranges, and they should be shared equally, don't you know.

 

Economies rise and fall. Those who survive plant seeds in the troughs which grow in the cr@p and blossom on the hills. And then they pray that others don't take it away from them in the name of "fairness".

 

So, no, this economist says we aren't getting out of this anytime soon. And we won't be going back to "what was". There is a structural realignment of the economy occurring. And a cultural one as well. As Audrey says "not until after the empire completes its decline and fall".

 

Sometimes (most of the time), one must hit rock bottom before one realizes it is time to pick oneself back up.

 

 

asta

[DawnM]

Until we stop borrowing money from other countries we will not get our act together financially.

 

Americans have overspent for decades and now we need to pay for it.

 

Any economy based on credit and spending is a house of cards.

 

I actually wish we didn't own a home right now....or at least wish that we owned some smaller inexpensive place where we could have it paid off.

 

Dawn

[creekland]

Eventually the economy will hit bottom, then will be built back up on something sustainable (for a while), then unsustainable because no lessons were really learned, then it will fall again.

 

It's a cycle.

 

Around here, it's still down and probably won't improve until spring at least. Hubby's been underemployed for about 2 - 3 years (Engineering) and is now looking at combining with another firm. Several firms have gone out of business or drastically cut workers (he heard from one that went from 35 down to 8).

 

It's the private economy that needs to bring us back up. I saw a quote the other day that pretty much summed up what gov't spending does to the US overall (no matter which party spends)...

 

"Gov't spending is like taking a pail of water from the deep end of the swimming pool and pouring it in the shallow end while hoping the level of the water will go up."

 

I wish I could remember WHO said it. Maybe someone else knows? It was a recent quote.

 

Granted the shallow end that gets the pail will see an increase for a relatively brief period of time just as credit card spending allows a "better" economy until the bill is due, but neither work in the long run.

 

That said, sooner or later the private economy will build a "true" economy IMO. I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

[MSNative]

It's the private economy that needs to bring us back up. I saw a quote the other day that pretty much summed up what gov't spending does to the US overall (no matter which party spends)...

 

"Gov't spending is like taking a pail of water from the deep end of the swimming pool and pouring it in the shallow end while hoping the level of the water will go up."

 

I wish I could remember WHO said it. Maybe someone else knows? It was a recent quote.

 

Granted the shallow end that gets the pail will see an increase for a relatively brief period of time just as credit card spending allows a "better" economy until the bill is due, but neither work in the long run.

 

That said, sooner or later the private economy will build a "true" economy IMO. I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

 

I think it was Herman Cain.

[Trish]

I do wonder. I think we're all being fed a bunch of pacifying tripe from news media and politicians (from all sides).

 

Food, gas, housing, health care, education--prices are soaring with inflation in every sector. This makes me extremely nervous about the next few years.

 

This website predicts that things will get much worse. A lot of it, I have already read from other sources. Some of it is new. All of it is disturbing. Especially when its laid out like that.

 

So, what say others here? Is this just more hype from doomsdayers? Or are we all being duped by a bunch of soothsayers?

 

Well, that whole website is predicated on the fact that we are collapsing, so it's not exactly oriented toward a balanced view. (i.e. they're not going to run an article that doesn't agree with their main thesis) Having made that disclaimer, yes, I DO agree with their premise. And there are other sites that are warning that things are not as rosy as the media paints them to be. (interesting to put it that way -- many would say things are NOT particularly optimistic in the media, however in general I would say the media is putting things in a more hopeful light than the situation warrants.)

 

Here is why things will not be getting better. After the shock/panic in the Fall of 2008, instead of dealing with the problems of too much debt and the housing crisis (basically the fact that the "value" in housing was pretty much fictitious at those levels, and therefore the banks would be insolvent if they acknowledged that), we papered over the problem by throwing money at banks, and using stimulus and quantitative easing to prop up the economy.

 

Even if the U.S. could right its ship (doubtful), the economy will be taken down once everyone realizes the European problem CANNOT be solved without an outright Greek default, or a severe threat to the economies of the stable members of the Eurozone.

 

So there's no way we get out of this without a major Depression. In fact I would regad that as the Better Case Scenario. A disorganized financial meltdown (of the type that was averted in 2008) is also possible, and that would be much more dire because it would interrupt goods and services. If credit markets get frozen up and can't be released, then stuff starts not getting delivered, plain and simple.

 

Here's a site that does a good job of outlining what's going on in the economy: Zero Hedge

[Onceuponatime]

So, no, this economist says we aren't getting out of this anytime soon. And we won't be going back to "what was". There is a structural realignment of the economy occurring. And a cultural one as well. As Audrey says "not until after the empire completes its decline and fall".

 

 

asta

 

This.

 

Me, I wonder what will replace materialism. Culture needs a philosophy, a reason for existence. The new reality will be extremely traumatic for so many people. Are we coming upon a great cultural/philosophical shift?

 

Some people groups still haven't even fully made the shift to materialism. Where will they be when the 1st world tells them "Oops, we were wrong. Go back to what you were doing before we destroyed your way of life."

[Trish]

Aside from the actual threats to the economy (debt, Europe, housing), the trends are not looking good in terms of where we are heading. My brother works for a good-sized consulting firm in NYC as a mid- to upper level accountant. Last fall he was told the firm planned to open a unit in India to do a lot of their accounting work. It has become obvious that many of the workers currently employed by the firm (entry and mid-leve accountants, IT people, etc.) are going to be expendable once this unit is opened. They are spending in excess of $100 million to complete this transition, so obviously they are highly committed to moving these jobs overseas. By next spring my brother is going to have to start firing people. People who are not going to be able to readily find other jobs. And new college grads? Maybe they should think about moving to India.

 

It started decades ago with manufacturing. Then the customer service call centers. Then the low level IT and accounting. Now the mid-level accounting and IT jobs are migrating. (I've heard this is also happening in the law sector.) I believe Ford is also opening a new plant in India.

 

And so it goes...

[creekland]

Regarding "my" quote

"Gov't spending is like taking a pail of water from the deep end of the swimming pool and pouring it in the shallow end while hoping the level of the water will go up."

 

I wish I could remember WHO said it. Maybe someone else knows? It was a recent quote.

 

Granted the shallow end that gets the pail will see an increase for a relatively brief period of time just as credit card spending allows a "better" economy until the bill is due, but neither work in the long run.

I think it was Herman Cain.

 

Thanks for the info! That could likely be it as I looked at his site a little bit after he won Florida's straw poll. (BUT, I'm not endorsing him by using his quote. I'm not in favor of a Federal Sales Tax which I believe I read he supports. I just like his quote as it's so true IMO.)

[Serenade]

 

It started decades ago with manufacturing. Then the customer service call centers. Then the low level IT and accounting. Now the mid-level accounting and IT jobs are migrating. (I've heard this is also happening in the law sector.) I believe Ford is also opening a new plant in India.

 

And so it goes...

 

Engineering jobs are being shifted to India as well. My DH has gotten some good consulting jobs from work that was shifted to India, but then was not done well, and had to be brought back to the US to be completed. However, I think that will change eventually, as engineering companies in India improve the skills they can deliver. Then, perhaps, we won't have as many Indian engineers coming to the US -- they'll stay at home where the jobs are.

[Denisemomof4]

Aside from the actual threats to the economy (debt, Europe, housing), the trends are not looking good in terms of where we are heading. My brother works for a good-sized consulting firm in NYC as a mid- to upper level accountant. Last fall he was told the firm planned to open a unit in India to do a lot of their accounting work. It has become obvious that many of the workers currently employed by the firm (entry and mid-leve accountants, IT people, etc.) are going to be expendable once this unit is opened. They are spending in excess of $100 million to complete this transition, so obviously they are highly committed to moving these jobs overseas. By next spring my brother is going to have to start firing people. People who are not going to be able to readily find other jobs. And new college grads? Maybe they should think about moving to India.

 

It started decades ago with manufacturing. Then the customer service call centers. Then the low level IT and accounting. Now the mid-level accounting and IT jobs are migrating. (I've heard this is also happening in the law sector.) I believe Ford is also opening a new plant in India.

 

And so it goes...

 

stupid, stupid, stupid.

[DawnM]

I think we are all going to have to just learn to live with less.

 

The days when someone could earn over $60K a year as a janitor and get full benefits and pension because he had a union are gone.

 

However, instead of offering the person above a job for $45K and partial benefits, he was fired completely.

 

We tend to have an all or nothing approach to things here.

 

Just my perspective.

[4everHis]

Aside from the actual threats to the economy (debt, Europe, housing), the trends are not looking good in terms of where we are heading. My brother works for a good-sized consulting firm in NYC as a mid- to upper level accountant. Last fall he was told the firm planned to open a unit in India to do a lot of their accounting work. It has become obvious that many of the workers currently employed by the firm (entry and mid-leve accountants, IT people, etc.) are going to be expendable once this unit is opened. They are spending in excess of $100 million to complete this transition, so obviously they are highly committed to moving these jobs overseas. By next spring my brother is going to have to start firing people. People who are not going to be able to readily find other jobs. And new college grads? Maybe they should think about moving to India.

 

It started decades ago with manufacturing. Then the customer service call centers. Then the low level IT and accounting. Now the mid-level accounting and IT jobs are migrating. (I've heard this is also happening in the law sector.) I believe Ford is also opening a new plant in India.

 

And so it goes...

 

OK! My question is this. . .is it because people here WON'T take lower pay so jobs can stay here? I guess I just don't understand how it's cheaper to send a whole Unit to India. I'm in MI, high unemployment rate and yet see companies advertising for workers. Are workers unwilling to take 'less' or have they left the state?

[Happy]

Aside from the actual threats to the economy (debt, Europe, housing), the trends are not looking good in terms of where we are heading. My brother works for a good-sized consulting firm in NYC as a mid- to upper level accountant. Last fall he was told the firm planned to open a unit in India to do a lot of their accounting work. It has become obvious that many of the workers currently employed by the firm (entry and mid-leve accountants, IT people, etc.) are going to be expendable once this unit is opened. They are spending in excess of $100 million to complete this transition, so obviously they are highly committed to moving these jobs overseas. By next spring my brother is going to have to start firing people. People who are not going to be able to readily find other jobs. And new college grads? Maybe they should think about moving to India.

 

It started decades ago with manufacturing. Then the customer service call centers. Then the low level IT and accounting. Now the mid-level accounting and IT jobs are migrating. (I've heard this is also happening in the law sector.) I believe Ford is also opening a new plant in India.

 

And so it goes...

 

This is the problem as I see it. That and the banking industry. (I'm in real estate. The banking industry frustrates and scares me...)

 

If we could encourage companies to keep jobs here in the U.S. our economy would pick up. There's just so much uncertainty about whether a person will have a job this time next year.

 

I would like to see incentives to companies to keep or bring back manufacturing, call centers, and all to the U.S.

 

Major tax incentives. A plaque from the President. Free cookies and Dr Pepper breaks...whatever it takes to help a company suceed right here in the states.

 

I'd be willing to send a couple dozen cookies a month to help out....

[Alenee]

1) To be clear, I did NOT say that unemployed workers are sitting on their rumps. Which leads me to my next comment.

 

2) Your post back to me sounds largely as if you've given up on America. You have every right to do so. However, that is what I was talking about. Not you personally, but the American spirit is dying and we therefore, sit on our rumps buying, buying, buying without any thought to investing a portion of what we spend on programs within the country to build it up (and again, not saying Feds should mandate our giving). I could go on a more philosophical path here but I'll stick with economics. We've allowed the ball to be in someone else's court when we *could* take it back and be in control of where our country goes from here.

 

That's why I mentioned STEM programs. Invest in the future of our kids. It can't hurt and, well, it just might help! Do I sound too optimistic? Maybe. But I'm not willing to give up. I have kids who will inherit this country and so, in the meantime, we'll do what we can as a family to give them the best.

 

To give some credence to what I speak of, my dh was also laid-off BUT was re-hired by the company and again, they cannot find skilled workers and they have contracts being sold and/or renewed at a quick rate...contracts that need to filled right here in the USA.

 

 

Look, I don't disagree with you that a boon in manufacturing would help. But, to get that boon, you need:

 

a.) tech education or a system of apprentice laborers

b.) healthy, productive workers

c.) manufacturing materials and resources

d.) commitment to domestic workers on behalf of companies

 

...among other things.

 

To go down that same list, education is being cut, and its union groups that have the best established apprentice system. Union groups are being systematically targeted and probably either eliminated, or eventually made irrelevant, if current trends continue.

 

Healthy, productive workers? Much of the middle class is being priced out of health care altogether. Can't afford it.

 

Resources, as I mentioned, are already growing scarce. Chris Martenson's series The Crash Course talks about how increasingly difficult it is becoming to find and extract minerals and resources all around the world. Note: he is an economist, not an environmentalist.

 

Finally, a commitment to domestic workers? Um, maybe the odd company here and there. But, I grew up in North Carolina, and was there in the 90's to witness firsthand, the drain that NAFTA had on the textiles industry. The state lost 250,000 jobs over the course of several years. Its had to rebuild its economy on other sectors, because most of those jobs have never come back.

 

The bottom line is, I don't think most Americans choose to "sit on their rumps." Most who are unemployed are desperate for work. And when they're working, they consistently work far longer hours, and get far less vacation, then equivalent workers in many other countries. I just read an article the other day, about how many working Americans have not had a vacation in years. Why? They're afraid if they take those days, they'll be seen as less committed to their jobs, and possibly laid off in the future.

 

My dh lost his job last month. He was consistently the most, or one of the top producers, in his job. He worked very hard, and he got rewarded with a pink slip, and a denial for the unemployment he'd paid deductions for for several years. Despite his many years of experience and his knowledge of his field, his best hope for finding another job is in going back to school to finish a degree.

 

It's not the lack of willingness of Americans to work that is the problem.

[bbkaren]

I believe we're living in our new reality, for at least the next decade or so.

 

I also believe that it has to get worse one way or the other.

 

1. We take our medicine and cut back sharply on the things that cost us the most (entitlement programs, "make-work" projects here, overseas nationbuilding). People will suffer badly for this...

 

2. We keep printing money so people "feel rich" and keep spending. Inflation and eventually, a worthless dollar. Do a little research on Argentina or Zimbabwe. Better yet, the Weimar Republic...

 

We will see worse pain before we see recovery.

 

I fear for the futures of my kids, one of whom is in college, one about to join the Army, and one in first grade. What do they have to look forward to?

 

I feel they're being ripped off. We had the "boom years" when everything was great, and jobs were a-plenty. They will pay for it. So sad.

 

JMHO but I'm not alone in this view. It's why we started a garden, stock up on food when it's on sale, and have chickens and meat rabbits.

[TravelingChris]

I think things will start to get a bit better in 2013 or late 2012. I think that economists will eventually say that we went back into a recession this summer or maybe just right now. (A recession is an economic term meaning a drop in the GDP for two consecutive quarters- it doesn't have anything to do with unemployment rates which is why we left the recession in summer of 2009 but never really recovered at all and now we are in a double dip recession). But while I think that psychology does have quite a lot to do with recoveries- it isn't the whole picture. So while business may get much more optimistic depending on elections, the long term problems that were caused by the building boom and mortgage mess- problems that occured in Europe too and have a lot to do with their financial issues also=will lead to better times for many but a larger segment will be left behind.

[Barry Goldwater]

There will always be opportunities to thrive financially for those that are clever enough to identify them, and nimble enough to capitalize on them. But sadly I think 9% reported unemployment rate and 16% or more effective unemployment rate are here for quite awhile...it's just the mathematical reality of our debt crisis and bubble economics that come with debt currencies...Andrew Jackson warned us.

 

The next question for the West and particularly for the US is whether current civil governments can survive the turmoil that has come and will continue to grow with austerity measures and a general worsening of the standard of living that most have come to expect and, yes, feel entitled to...see Greece as one example...and history tells us that if representative republic govts. fall, what follows is hardly going to be...pleasant.:glare:

 

My real challenge as a parent/homeschooler, is how to prepare my kids for a world I recognize less and less with each passing day. Some of the counsel from 20 years ago is somewhat moot in today's world, and tomorrows...

Edited September 28, 2011 by Barry Goldwater
typos

[Lang Syne Boardie]

There will always be opportunities to thrive financially for those that are clever enough to identify them, and nimble enough to capitalize on them. But sadly I think 9% reported unemployment rate and 16% or more effective unemployment rate are here for quite awhile...it's just the mathematical reality of our debt crisis and bubble economics that come with debt currencies...Andrew Jackson warned us.

 

The next question for the West and particularly for the US is whether current civil governments can survive the turmoil that has come and will continue to grow with austerity measures and a general worsening of the standard of living that most have come to expect and, yes, feel entitled to...see Greece as one example...and history tells us that if representative republic govts. fall, what follows is hardly going to be...pleasant.:glare:

 

My real challenge as a parent/homeschooler, is how to prepare my kids for a world I recognize less and less with each passing day. Some of the counsel from 20 years ago is somewhat moot in today's world, and tomorrows...

 

:iagree:

 

I think we're toast. Surely a new normal will emerge within a generation or two, but life as we knew it is gone. The transition is already hurting. I am very concerned for the future of our family, our community, and our nation.

 

As we prepare our children to be globally competitive in math, science, and other academic skills, we're also trying to help them grow to be emotionally and spiritually healthy people. They'll need more than brains to weather the challenges they'll face as young adults.

[Trish]

OK! My question is this. . .is it because people here WON'T take lower pay so jobs can stay here? I guess I just don't understand how it's cheaper to send a whole Unit to India. I'm in MI, high unemployment rate and yet see companies advertising for workers. Are workers unwilling to take 'less' or have they left the state?

 

My understanding is the wages would not be enough to support anyone here. Less than minimum, but more than you'd get for sweatshop rates. Decent by Indian standards, but it wouldn't be realistic (nor legal) to offer those wages here.

 

Truly I don't think we're headed down a sustainable path (for the USA) -- ultimately we will realize this, but probably when it's too late to do anything about it.

[Mrs Mungo]

Seriously? Touting Andrew Jackson? The man who *against the order of the Supreme Court* threw people out of their homes due to their race, moved them to a desolate prairie with little hope of survival and raffled off their homes and farms just in time for the harvest? I guess that's one way to help one group toward economic recovery.

[Kathleen in VA]

Short answer: no... not until after the empire completes its decline and fall.

 

:iagree:

[LittleIzumi]

 

My dh lost his job last month. He was consistently the most, or one of the top producers, in his job. He worked very hard, and he got rewarded with a pink slip, and a denial for the unemployment he'd paid deductions for for several years. Despite his many years of experience and his knowledge of his field, his best hope for finding another job is in going back to school to finish a degree.

 

It's not the lack of willingness of Americans to work that is the problem.

 

And now SO many people are doing that, I think we'll see another change in a few years when all the new grad students flood the market. I know many people doing this, and dh is going for a grad degree while (so far) continuing to work. I plan to go for more education when he is finished. It seems like a master's is going to be the new bachelor's soon, as it were.

[usetoschool]

Seriously? Touting Andrew Jackson? The man who *against the order of the Supreme Court* threw people out of their homes due to their race, moved them to a desolate prairie with little hope of survival and raffled off their homes and farms just in time for the harvest? I guess that's one way to help one group toward economic recovery.

 

There will always be opportunities to thrive financially for those that are clever enough to identify them, and nimble enough to capitalize on them. But sadly I think 9% reported unemployment rate and 16% or more effective unemployment rate are here for quite awhile...it's just the mathematical reality of our debt crisis and bubble economics that come with debt currencies...Andrew Jackson warned us.

 

I don't know what his (terrible) policy re: Native Americans has to do with his economic policy but I agree with his basic ideas on economics as summed up here:

 

Economic Policy

 

Jackson's fiery defense of national sovereignty was balanced by repeated reminders of the rights of states and the danger inherent in reckless federal spending or incursion of the central government into areas constitutionally closed to national action. Thus his Maysville Road veto of 1830 discouraged the champions of nationalist economic policy, as did his frequent attacks on the Bank of the United States as an agency of "stockjobbers" despoiling honest workmen and corrupting the democratic processes of the state. Behind these sentiments lay a dedication to traditional hard-money principles and a fundamentally conservative economic persuasion.

 

are what we need and would be helpful in our current situation. Spending spending spending and using credit and inflated currency to do it seem to me like the cause of our current problems and until the consumer economy and Keynesian policies go away, I don't think we will improve. Someone made an interesting comment a while back about what good it would do to stop government spending that support those struggling. The government either prints money or gets it through taxes. If they are not taking it from me, I am free to spend it or save it or invest it. An economy cannot prosper when the government is taking the fruits of citizen's labor, taking a huge cut to pay themselves and then doling out the rest as it sees fit - generally involving a lot of pet projects and social engineering.

:rant:

Edited September 28, 2011 by jcooperetc

[creekland]

Seriously? Touting Andrew Jackson? The man who *against the order of the Supreme Court* threw people out of their homes due to their race, moved them to a desolate prairie with little hope of survival and raffled off their homes and farms just in time for the harvest? I guess that's one way to help one group toward economic recovery.

 

Just because someone is totally wrong in one area of decision making doesn't mean they are incorrect about everything. What Jackson did to the native people groups is horrifying. What he warned about debt is worth remembering.

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't know what his (terrible) policy re: Native Americans has to do with his economic policy but I agree with his basic ideas on economics as summed up here:

 

Economic Policy

 

Jackson's fiery defense of national sovereignty was balanced by repeated reminders of the rights of states and the danger inherent in reckless federal spending or incursion of the central government into areas constitutionally closed to national action. Thus his Maysville Road veto of 1830 discouraged the champions of nationalist economic policy, as did his frequent attacks on the Bank of the United States as an agency of "stockjobbers" despoiling honest workmen and corrupting the democratic processes of the state. Behind these sentiments lay a dedication to traditional hard-money principles and a fundamentally conservative economic persuasion.

 

is what we need and would be helpful in our current situation. Spending spending spending and using credit and inflated currency to do it seem to me like the cause of our current problems and until the consumer economy and Keynesian policies go away, I don't think we will improve. Someone made an interesting comment a while back about what good it would do to stop government spending that support those struggling. The government either prints money or gets it through taxes. If they are not taking it from me, I am free to spend it or save it or invest it. An economy cannot prosper when the government is taking the fruits of citizen's labor, taking a huge cut to pay themselves and then doling out the rest as it sees fit - generally involving a lot of pet projects and social engineering.

:rant:

 

I will have to reply to this later (I'm off for now), but I disagree with Jackson on a *lot* of things.