BTW: We're all arrogant idiots.

[dangermom]

http://www.gocomics.com/frazz/2011/09/21

 

Interesting final line: "I wonder how many other people have screwed up peace because they were busy hating something they didn't understand."

[Mrs Mungo]

explaining to them WHY "love at first sight" equaled "true love" in Shakespeare's plays.

 

Wait...what? I don't think this is necessarily true. It's definitely not true in R&J, at least not for Romeo. He's all heartsick and mooning over Rosaline at the beginning of the play.

 

eta: Take the line, "what's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet," this line is long thought to refer to Romeo replacing Rosaline with Juliet. One girl is about the same as another to Romeo. The difference in the two girls is in *their own actions.* Juliet drives much of the action in the play.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[Aubrey]

Wait...what? I don't think this is necessarily true. It's definitely not true in R&J, at least not for Romeo. He's all heartsick and mooning over Rosaline at the beginning of the play.

 

eta: Take the line, "what's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet," this line is long thought to refer to Romeo replacing Rosaline with Juliet. One girl is about the same as another to Romeo. The difference in the two girls is in *their own actions.* Juliet drives much of the action in the play.

 

But his love for Rosaline wasn't TRUE because it wasn't Beatific, it wasn't divinely-inspired at-first-sight. Juliet = Beatrice.

 

Accepting the premise that this IS true love influences one's understanding of the play. Or so they said while studying Dante, not Shakespeare, at my Catholic university. I didn't *think* this was a biased approach, but I guess there's the possibility. ;)

 

ETA: Plus, if one girl was as good as another, why did he risk marrying Juliet? Why did he kill himself (sorry, spoiler! ;)) when he found her "dead"? She was fundamentally different from Rosaline.

[Lovedtodeath]

Just like politicians, teachers cannot be expected to fix all of our society’s ills that are simply mirrored in our school systems.

Oh, wow. You just convinced me to send my kids to school.

[Mrs Mungo]

But his love for Rosaline wasn't TRUE because it wasn't Beatific, it wasn't divinely-inspired at-first-sight. Juliet = Beatrice.

 

Accepting the premise that this IS true love influences one's understanding of the play. Or so they said while studying Dante, not Shakespeare, at my Catholic university. I didn't *think* this was a biased approach, but I guess there's the possibility. ;)

 

*LOL*!

 

I don't know that I view R&J as portraying true love. I think it's portraying young love. Read it again and take away that filter. Juliet really steamrolls everyone into doing things her way and it doesn't work out because she is *not* a clear-thinking adult applying a dose of logic to the situation. The nurse and friar should have forced the couple come clean after Tybalt was killed. The play might have had a happier ending.

 

Also, that view totally ignores Much Ado About Nothing in which the character *actually named* Beatrice hates her "true love" (and that one is portrayed as a mature love, one that is more of what I think of as true love) in the beginning. :D

[pdalley]

Oh, wow. You just convinced me to send my kids to school.

 

 

:iagree: Cause I want my kid's teachers to see their special needs as 'society's ills' that they have to deal with......

[Aubrey]

*LOL*!

 

I don't know that I view R&J as portraying true love. I think it's portraying young love. Read it again and take away that filter.

 

Until college, I thought the play was stupid because I thought it was young love, too. But I *think* that that view is reading it w/ a modern filter. We briefly talked about Dante's influence on Shakespeare & the general western view of love in a class on *Dante.* I didn't reread R&J until the summer before I had to teach it, & I was so surprised by how much richer the play was w/ the understanding of Dante's influence on that time period.

 

Juliet really steamrolls everyone into doing things her way and it doesn't work out because she is *not* a clear-thinking adult applying a dose of logic to the situation. The nurse and friar should have forced the couple come clean after Tybalt was killed. The play might have had a happier ending.

 

Sure, but I don't think that J can be held responsible for the nurse's or the friar's lack of adult behavior.

 

Also, that view totally ignores Much Ado About Nothing in which the character *actually named* Beatrice hates her "true love" (and that one is portrayed as a mature love, one that is more of what I think of as true love) in the beginning. :D

 

But don't you think it's possible that MAAN is tongue-in-cheek? I mean, the whole play is so funny, it kind-of makes it funnier to name the main character Beatrice & have her hate her true love.

[mommaduck]

I posted.

 

JC

[Hedgehog]

I cracked and cracked and cracked. I didn't attempt suicide, but it certainly crossed my mind as a kid. So did running away. School wasn't a "liberating experience" for me; it was a hellhole. It didn't make me stronger (I didn't get that until I was already an adult). Honestly, school is almost too painful to talk about even to this day. Highschool went a bit easier, but before that, no. It's the number one reason that I initially chose to homeschool my kids. Now I have about a thousand other reasons.

 

:grouphug::grouphug: I totally understand. I went through the same thing myself.

 

Instead of making me stronger, I just developed a hard shell which covered up a sensitive inner. It's taken me years to thin that shell - and it's not completely gone yet. I did not learn to interact with other people from going to school; I learned it from watching my parents, extended family and friends outside school. School merely taught me how to hide who I was.

[....]

I was frustrayed by the comment about hsers being soft.

 

Yeah, that comment upsets me every time. :glare: I have grade schoolers dissecting cow eyes, for crying out loud. What do you want from me?! :tongue_smilie: You can only push them so much. I can't put a working NASA space station in our living room and have my kids engineer their own physics experiments.

 

or can I...:rolleyes:

Edited September 23, 2011 by starrbuck12

[Mrs Mungo]

Until college, I thought the play was stupid because I thought it was young love, too. But I *think* that that view is reading it w/ a modern filter. We briefly talked about Dante's influence on Shakespeare & the general western view of love in a class on *Dante.* I didn't reread R&J until the summer before I had to teach it, & I was so surprised by how much richer the play was w/ the understanding of Dante's influence on that time period.

 

I definitely see how Dante influenced Shakespeare, don't get me wrong. I think those symbols are *there*, but I don't know that R&J is written in such a manner that is indicating complete *agreement* with Dante. Does that make sense?

 

Romeo certainly undergoes changes, he *does* take more action than he did with Rosaline. His speech becomes less dreamy and moony. I am not trying to say there is nothing upon which one could base the argument you make. But, when I look it this play in context with his body of work? I have a hard time thinking that he held Dante's version of beatific love.

 

Sure, but I don't think that J can be held responsible for the nurse's or the friar's lack of adult behavior.

Oh, I agree.

 

But don't you think it's possible that MAAN is tongue-in-cheek? I mean, the whole play is so funny, it kind-of makes it funnier to name the main character Beatrice & have her hate her true love.

Certainly, absolutely, and that's my point. A LOT of his plays use play on words, identity confusion, pretending to be the opposite sex, there are many, many plays on the theme you describe. I *completely* agree that Dante's work influenced Shakespeare, I do not agree that Shakespeare *agreed* with Dante's view of love.

[elegantlion]

But his love for Rosaline wasn't TRUE because it wasn't Beatific, it wasn't divinely-inspired at-first-sight. Juliet = Beatrice.

 

Accepting the premise that this IS true love influences one's understanding of the play. Or so they said while studying Dante, not Shakespeare, at my Catholic university. I didn't *think* this was a biased approach, but I guess there's the possibility. ;)

 

ETA: Plus, if one girl was as good as another, why did he risk marrying Juliet? Why did he kill himself (sorry, spoiler! ;)) when he found her "dead"? She was fundamentally different from Rosaline.

 

Dagnabbit, now you've gone and spoiled it for me! A nearby college is putting on R&J next month and now I'll know the ending!!! :glare::tongue_smilie:

[elegantlion]

Any insight into Dante's influence on Macbeth? We're reading Dante now and heading straight into Macbeth afterwards. We using this version, and spent the morning in Purgatory.

 

~Paula (who is loving the irony of reading a discussion on Shakespeare and Dante in a thread about homeschoolers being idiots)

[chepyl]

Yeah, that comments upset me every time. :glare: I have grade schoolers dissecting cow eyes, for crying out loud. What do you want from me?! :tongue_smilie: You can only push them so much. I can't put a working NASA space station in our living room and have my kids engineer their own physics experiments.

 

or can I...:rolleyes:

 

A six year old is not supposed to be tough. And it is okay for boys to cry. It is okay for men to cry. This idea of being tough is ridiculous! Kids in PS aren't necessarily tough. They might be scared to show their feelings because the kid who admitted he was scared of Harry Potter got teased!

 

Some kids don't feel that they can tell anyone how they feel. They have a different teacher every year and for some kids, they see that teacher more than any other adult in their lives. But, at the end of the year, that teacher is gone.

 

Tough and strong are not the same. A child can be "soft" and strong. They can be open about their feelings while being a person of strong character who can stand up for what they believe. This is what I want for my children.

[Aubrey]

Certainly, absolutely, and that's my point. A LOT of his plays use play on words, identity confusion, pretending to be the opposite sex, there are many, many plays on the theme you describe. I *completely* agree that Dante's work influenced Shakespeare, I do not agree that Shakespeare *agreed* with Dante's view of love.

 

Ok, I can agree w/ that. I see Shakespeare as the class clown who's secretly gifted, so no one takes him seriously at first. He uses humor to hide his sword & the fact that he's making you question things you accept as a matter of course.

 

Where that leaves R & J, I don't know. I like reading it as a comedy instead of a tragedy, but I wasn't going to say that up front because I think it removes my credibility. :lol: But I do mean comedy in the classic sense, not comedic. ;)

[Mrs Mungo]

Any insight into Dante's influence on Macbeth? We're reading Dante now and heading straight into Macbeth afterwards. We using this version, and spent the morning in Purgatory.

 

There are a TON of allusions to Dante in Macbeth. Just as one example, the reasons Macbeth gives for not killing Duncan? Those are the four sins punished in Dante's last circle of hell.

 

~Paula (who is loving the irony of reading a discussion on Shakespeare and Dante in a thread about homeschoolers being idiots)

 

:lol:

[Mrs Mungo]

Ok, I can agree w/ that. I see Shakespeare as the class clown who's secretly gifted, so no one takes him seriously at first. He uses humor to hide his sword & the fact that he's making you question things you accept as a matter of course.

 

I think this is a very valid POV.

 

Where that leaves R & J, I don't know. I like reading it as a comedy instead of a tragedy, but I wasn't going to say that up front because I think it removes my credibility. :lol: But I do mean comedy in the classic sense, not comedic. ;)

 

That's the thing about R&J. There is always a feeling in the play that things could still turn out okay right up until the end. THAT is the beauty and magic of the play to me.

[elegantlion]

There are a TON of allusions to Dante in Macbeth. Just as one example, the reasons Macbeth gives for not killing Duncan? Those are the four sins punished in Dante's last circle of hell.

 

 

 

:lol:

 

Oh, I'll go back and mark those. Thank you.

[....]

A six year old is not supposed to be tough. And it is okay for boys to cry. It is okay for men to cry. This idea of being tough is ridiculous! Kids in PS aren't necessarily tough. They might be scared to show their feelings because the kid who admitted he was scared of Harry Potter got teased!

 

Some kids don't feel that they can tell anyone how they feel. They have a different teacher every year and for some kids, they see that teacher more than any other adult in their lives. But, at the end of the year, that teacher is gone.

 

Tough and strong are not the same. A child can be "soft" and strong. They can be open about their feelings while being a person of strong character who can stand up for what they believe. This is what I want for my children.

 

Sorry about the typo. I was multi-tasking! :D

 

I agree with you, BTW.

[MrsBasil]

Dagnabbit, now you've gone and spoiled it for me! A nearby college is putting on R&J next month and now I'll know the ending!!! :glare::tongue_smilie:

 

The boat sinks at the end of Titanic, just FYI.

 

 

I am enjoying the idea that all homeschool parents are arrogant idiots who should be putting their kids in school so they can work for change in the system.

 

There's something off about wishing the people you deem idiotic would head the fight to change things about a system you think is vitally important for every child.

[Susanah]

This woman is threatened, frustrated, frightened, jealous and trying to relieve her anxiety by attacking us.

 

That's all. She is small and irrelevant, and I pity her.

[Aubrey]

That's the thing about R&J. There is always a feeling in the play that things could still turn out okay right up until the end. THAT is the beauty and magic of the play to me.

 

And I see it as a comedy because, despite the tragic ending, the families reconcile in the end, bringing unity.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Just an open ended question here...

 

Do you think it harms the company image of the advertisers on that web site when there is controversy like this?

 

I do.

 

Everytime I see Happycrawler leggings, I'm going to instantly think of this article....

[chepyl]

I start teaching MacBeth to my co-op class in a few weeks...it has been a LONG LONG LONG time since I read Dante...just ordered my copy to read and be ready for discussions! I will recommend it as supplementary reading for those taking the class for credit. Thanks :)

[FO4UR]

There's something off about wishing the people you deem idiotic would head the fight to change things about a system you think is vitally important for every child.

 

 

:iagree:

 

 

If I thought I could change the system from the inside, I might try...but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I can enact change on anyone but myself. (regardless of my shameless tongue-in-cheek "I am that arrogant." post earlier in the thread...)

 

That said, I recall listening with great interest to the school board vs Parents bickerings from Wake Co. NC back when I was contemplating school-choice for my oldest. Parents lost. I don't think adding my name to that list would have changed a THING b/c the system is set up so that the people who have the most intimate involvement in the childrens' lives (parents and teachers) have the least power to make intelligent decisions.

 

 

 

...and I too love the irony of the Shakespeare/Dante hijack...I'm still trying to figure out what I think about the whole reading of Gatsby 50 times. I remember reading that one in high school, and my teacher had been through it 50 times atleast (I'm certain!) b/c she was disinterested in the book, the class, the students. I remember reading R&J too...that one was fun, but we didn't get as deep as *this thread* in that class.:001_huh::lol:

 

I think this is a case of "Real Life doesn't lie"...and the Titanic really does sink at the end, no matter how boastful the Captain and Crew may be before the ship even sets out into the great big sea.

[Mimm]

I love how threads around here end up in such strange places. :)

[Carpe]

I love how threads around here end up in such strange places. :)

:iagree:

[ChrissySC]

Just an open ended question here...

 

Do you think it harms the company image of the advertisers on that web site when there is controversy like this?

 

I do.

 

Everytime I see Happycrawler leggings, I'm going to instantly think of this article....

 

 

I would tend to discredit or de-value a product that comes from a site such as this. The advertising would appear to be supporting this topic by its mere presence.

[Impish]

...and then there's tragedies like the one I posted about (Tragic End To Bullying) that makes me think there's no way under the sun I would willingly risk my child to a ps setting.

[ChrissySC]

...and then there's tragedies like the one I posted about (Tragic End To Bullying) that makes me think there's no way under the sun I would willingly risk my child to a ps setting.

 

 

I just read that - heartbreaking.:grouphug:

[Aelwydd]

She makes an impassioned argument that applies to some hs'ers (the ones that are okay with a 12 yo who can't read). However, I think it's ironic how she bristles at having all ps blamed for the problems of education, and universally disrespected. Then, she turns around an lumps all hs'ers in one category.

 

In the spirit of the Shakesperean discussion here, I'll just sum up my response:

 

By the picking of my nose, something stupid this way posts.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

My favorite quote from the Bitter Homeschooler's Wish List, and a sentiment discussed here I think is the most succinct answer to this blogger's statements:

 

"If spending at least twelve years in the kind of chew-it-up-and-spit-it-out educational facility we call public school left me with so little information in my memory banks that I can't teach the basics of an elementary education to my nearest and dearest, maybe there's a reason I'm so reluctant to send my child to school."

[elegantlion]

 

In the spirit of the Shakesperean discussion here, I'll just sum up my response:

 

By the picking of my nose, something stupid this way posts.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[*Inna*]

Awwww :grouphug:

 

Wolf beeps at me when I climb in and out of bed. You know, imitating a the signal of a large truck backing up?

:lol::lol::lol: That is so wrong!

[Impish]

:lol::lol::lol: That is so wrong!

Tell me about it!

[Maus]

 

i honestly don’t think that the writer of this article was intentionally trying to bash homeschoolers, but state her highly educated opinion on the matter. Truth is- she is a teacher-a teacher with a masters degree- and has seen it all- just like me.

Anyone know in what field the blog author earned her Master's Degree?

[Hedgehog]

Wolf beeps at me when I climb in and out of bed. You know, imitating a the signal of a large truck backing up?

 

I've offered to shave his head as he sleeps. He's quit beeping. For now.

 

:lol: Such a threat would not move my dh in the least; he's already shaved his head more than once by his own choice!

[Cricket]

Awwww :grouphug:

 

Wolf beeps at me when I climb in and out of bed. You know, imitating a the signal of a large truck backing up?

 

I've offered to shave his head as he sleeps. He's quit beeping. For now.

 

That . is . freaking . hilarious.

 

Although if it was my dh, I'd probably crack him in the head with something.

 

Or put a Jerusalem cricket in his lunchbox.

[Impish]

:lol: Such a threat would not move my dh in the least; he's already shaved his head more than once by his own choice!

Wolf's a bit paranoid about his hair. He had an ex gf that would cut his hair in his sleep to convince him he was going bald :lol:

That . is . freaking . hilarious.

 

Although if it was my dh, I'd probably crack him in the head with something.

 

Or put a Jerusalem cricket in his lunchbox.

*shudder* That would require me being in close proximity to the mutant critter from Hades. No thanks.

[Hedgehog]

Wolf's a bit paranoid about his hair. He had an ex gf that would cut his hair in his sleep to convince him he was going bald :lol:

 

:lol::lol::lol: Actually - dh would be affected by a threat to shave off his eyebrows in his sleep. *evil chuckle* :sneaky2:

 

Hmm.. why is it that you only ever get the great ideas when there's no reason to use them?

[Impish]

:lol::lol::lol: Actually - dh would be affected by a threat to shave off his eyebrows in his sleep. *evil chuckle* :sneaky2:

 

Hmm.. why is it that you only ever get the great ideas when there's no reason to use them?

Better yet, shave one eyebrow. Or half off each side, so he has to finish the job *evil grin*

[RegGuheert]

Arrogant idiots -> Dante's effect on Shakespeare -> Effective husband nighttime threats

 

A logical progression... :lol:

[Mommy22alyns]

There was a 9 yro here who also committed suicide at the school during school hours.

 

 

Oh my gosh. :crying: Nine??

 

 

Good to see Pencil Pusher!

[Impish]

Arrogant idiots -> Dante's effect on Shakespeare -> Effective husband nighttime threats

 

A logical progression... :lol:

Well, duh. Circle of H*ll and all that...

[GoVanGogh]

Originally Posted by starrbuck12

There was a 9 yro here who also committed suicide at the school during school hours.

 

Oh my gosh. :crying: Nine??

That was in my school district.

One of the top-rated in the state. :glare:

[Nscribe]

Oink , actually Zhombie Oink.

[Hedgehog]

Better yet, shave one eyebrow. Or half off each side, so he has to finish the job *evil grin*

 

Just don't tell him I got the idea from you.. he'd never let me on here again!!

[Impish]

Just don't tell him I got the idea from you.. he'd never let me on here again!!

I do an amazing 'innocent' :001_smile:

[Aubrey]

Well, duh. Circle of H*ll and all that...

 

What better motivation to be good?

 

*Cue scary voice* And at the lowest circle of Hell, there will be illogical arguments...stupid people...perhaps even...bureaucracy...mwhahahaa

[Melissa in NC]

I went back to my university several years ago and saw one of my professors from my days of studying Chemical Engineering. When I told him that I am homeschooling, he told me "Good". He wanted his wife to homeschool.

 

My dh also taught for a while on the sophmore level in Electrical Engineering. The other professors liked the homeschool kids because they knew how to study and learn. Homeschool kids were responsible and did not whine.

 

I take the opinions of college professors more seriously than the opinion of a high school teacher.