IEW vs WWE/WWS

[Chloe]

I'd love a comparison. Which is better for VERY reluctant writers? Which is easier to teach?

 

Thanks!

[Jilly]

I can't compare the programs, as I have never used IEW, but my son is a very reluctant writer. He is using WWS, and he just finished his 4th week. I am very happy with his progress so far, and I feel that he will be able to work with this program long term without getting too frustrated. He has already learned a great deal.

[Jaz]

I tried IEW with my reluctant writer but it was a little too fast paced for him. We're zipping through WWE 3 and 4 by just doing the narration/writing portions to move onto WWS. He's making such good progress with WWE. I recommend you start there.

 

BTW, I think IEW is an excellent program. My ds just wasn't ready for it last year.

[laughing lioness]

They are both very easy to teach well and successfully. IEW takes a bit more work of intentional teacher training in the beginning (it's a front end load program/ once you get the training, you're set).

WWE is for k/1 -4/5th graders. I think that it is the best writing program for young learners that is out there. It filled a much needed gap for k-3rd graders. I've used it for 2 years and love it.

IEW is for 3rd through college age kids. I've used it for the past 13 years and love it/ have taught it in co-ops (I'm using 3 of their books for co=ops this year) and have nothing but GREAT things to say about it. They have a couple of theme books for 3rd graders now that I like and are a gentle intro for young writers. (I'm teaching a group of 3rd graders using Fables, myths and fairy tales this year).

I think that IEW is a great program for reluctant writers because it gives the kids a source text. They don't have to generate info as well as write. It breaks the tasks into manageable, bite-sized pieces and focuses on writing instruction. IEW goes through 9 areas so I'd check out what areas you want to work on and see if they fit your need.

WWE does the same thing- using a source text to narrate and dictate from.

How old is your writer. Why are they reluctant? What success and failures have they had so far?

[Lori in MS]

I've used both IEW and WWE WWS. They are similar. A lot of it has to do with different formats. WWS is written instruction, IEW is dvd. My boys love the dvd lessons. They wrote much better for Mr. Pudewa than for me. But they are doing well with WWS also.

 

I think WWS is more throrough and systematic in teaching outlining.

 

Style is treated a little differently in each one but it is taught in both.

 

I really like how Mr. Pudewa teaches the various sentence openers and how to structure paragraphs with a topic and clincher. It is very concrete and not difficult for reluctant writers to understand. My dc have only done 2 weeks of WWS but I am very pleased with the program so far.

[laughing lioness]

IEW can be dvd or it can be taught by you if you use the TWSS or a theme based book.

[happyhomemaker]

Has anyone used both at the same time? Would that be too much? I am using WWE 3 with my 4th grade dd and have been debating about adding something else in as well. Could I use a theme book from IEW without having seen any of the DVDs? I was thinking about getting the middle ages or fables one to give dd some more confidence.

[laughing lioness]

I think it would be fine to do both. I wanted to add WWE to the small group of 3rd graders I'm teaching Fairy Tales... too but the other mom's thought it's be too much. I think it would be a winning combo.

[Hedgehogs4]

I cannot compare the two, but WWS was written with the reluctant writers in mind.

[tuesdayschild]

:bigear:

[FriedClams]

My kids really like the DVD guy, mr. p. He's very engaging an my kids don't mind IEW much at all. I like the scope and sequence of IEW, and I like having the DVD to teach this one subject. I tried WWE, but it just felt like we'd never get to actual writing. I think it would have been great if I did the whole WWE1, WWE2, etc. And then done the progression. We didn't, but I am very pleased with IEW.

[Chloe]

Thanks so much! Still pondering this.....

[Trilliums]

I used IEW SWI B for my 7th and 8th graders the second half of last year. The kids had not used formal writing programs up to that point. At the time, I considered them both very reluctant writers. We did use the DVDs but I did not use the separate program that teaches you how to implement the program. Once it was set up, the program was easy for the kids to follow independently. They completed a bit more than half of the SWI B and I do believe the program helped them overcome much of their resistance to writing. Neither of them is currently a fan of writing, but at least writing now longer produces that startled deer caught in headlights look. At the same time they started the Killgallon Middle School Grammar and Figuratively Speaking (for learning literary terms). I was very pleased with this combination as it gave them tools to approach writing, plus it helped them think about literature. They are avid readers. Also, the Killgallon program has gone a long way in increasing their sentence variety.

 

A few days ago, I started the WWS sample with my now 8th grader. He is also finishing up IEW SWI B and the Killgallon book. I find it is going very smoothly for him, but we have just started. I do not expect to finish the entire WWS or even to have him do it daily. For us, that is just too much repetition and we prefer a bit of variety. The narrations have been interesting for him and even though it is a different approach from the IEW, which focuses on developing key work outlines, he doesn't have a problem adapting to either program. He just completed a lesson in IEW on writing mini-reports. He was so proud of merging the information from different sources into his own paragraphs. I do not know if WWS eventually covers this type of writing as I haven't looked that far ahead, but I am grateful DS had this very gentle training approach to writing non-fiction paragraphs. From the first few weeks of WWS that I have looked through, it may not be the best long term fit for my son. The text seems somewhat overwhelming with information at some points without enough clear and short instructions (IEW has a lot of short and clear instructions and the kids seemed to respond well to this). I guess they don't want a huge theory behind writing, but do want the basic skills to get information across. I am reluctant to actually write that as my kids generally love to learn about all sorts of things. They don't seem to crave learning about the basis for writing though!

 

My older son (now 9th grade) has started IEW History Based Writing. Having worked through most of the IEW SWI B definitely helped him, but the History Based Writing does start with a review of the KeyWordOutline methodology. He has matured into a very good writer without a lot of other writing instruction but he still doesn't particularly like writing.

 

I do think that teaching a reluctant writer the basic KWO method without all the specific dress ups taught in IEW can help them gain more confidence in writing. We are a bit flexible with the specific dress ups, but the kids definitely respond to including those kinds of qualities in their writing.

[Janice in NJ]

Hi. I used IEW years ago to get my oldest moving. It worked. He started writing.

 

I have the longer 20-week pdf's of WWS. I would heartily recommend that you take your kids through the program.

 

The teacher's guide is simple and direct. Just do what it says every day. Unlike IEW, there is no grand scheme to unravel. It's open and go.

 

WWS respects the logic stage. The child is analyzing and writing slanted character descriptions by week seventeen. This kind of analysis is useful across the curriculum - in history, science, and literature. Finally, a program that recognizes that middle-schoolers are ready to unearth author bias.

 

WWS respects the child's ear. In week seventeen, the student begins altering sentences by examining their grammatical structure and recasting prepositional phrases as descriptive adjectives. Rather than save concision for later, the program addresses it right away. IEW admits that certain dress-ups are clunky; as the writer matures, they "fall off the checklist." Bauer jumps directly to integrating the child's grammar curriculum into the composition program. Grammar exercises become relevant; they are useful now rather than something to save for later. For example, upper level writing programs encourage writers to eliminate useless adverbs. The verbs should be doing the heavy lifting in the sentence. In this case, the thesaurus is the writer's friend. You would never say, "The sailor pulled diligently on the oar." Instead you write, "The sailor strained against the oar." In general, -ly adverbs are dead wood. In the WWS copia lessons, the child is instructed to read her work aloud and generate new constructions through conscious grammatical choices until her ear is satisfied - not until the checklist is satisfied.

 

WWS uses adult-level tools. Unlike IEW which provides lists of synonyms to choose from, WWS explains how to use an adult thesaurus very early in the program. Rather than provide a crutch, WWS jumps right to the adult tool. The crutch isn't necessary. In this case the crutch sends the wrong message. In real life, no one provides a printed list of the words to hang on the wall. Writing takes time. Loads of time. It's hard work; sometimes you have to look up a word in that big, huge book. Often it pays to work on a sentence until it's Goldilocks-just-right. (Looking for a good synonym for "foolish"? Goldilocks could be witless, moronic, or maudlin. Hmmmm.... dictionary, please. Just as you might choose to color a zebra purple, you might want to color Goldilocks maudlin. But you would want to make that choice intentionally. Someone might question it; you'll want an answer at the ready. ANOTHER teaching moment. NOT to be missed. Priceless, actually.)

 

WWS asks the child to analyze more sophisticated excerpts.

 

The program even addresses active and passive voice. In the level 5 text. She instructs the student when to eliminate it and when to use it.

 

I could go on.

 

The programs are not equal.

 

I used IEW. Sure, my kids started writing. The program generated relief. That was priceless at the time. But we had to go back and undo a slew of bad habits. I knew they were bad habits. My kids knew it too; they could hear it when they read their work aloud. But I was desperate to move past endless S-P constructions and groans of, "I have no idea what to write." At the time I couldn't find any other path.

 

WWS is gold. Don't pass it up.

 

(Sheesh! I sound like a commercial.) Can you believe some of us tried to do ancient history with first graders before SOTW? Yup. We exist. When SOTW with the activity guide was published, we gushed. "Where has this been? Where?" It's a bit like spending four years hacking through the jungle only to look back and see someone else being offered a newly paved, four-lane highway and an air-conditioned Jag for the journey. It's a bit bewildered to think that, given the options, someone else might be strapping on hiking boots and picking up a machete.

 

But I get it: I'm projecting. One man's machete is another man's sports car. I understand. I'm sure IEW is still a great fit for some families. However, I can't imagine comparing it to WWS. They are not in the same category.

 

My opinion. For what it's worth.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[melmichigan]

My DD did IEW SWI-B last year. She is doing WWS this year and I think it is a very good choice for the reasons Janice has already listed in great detail (thank you!). IEW got my DD to write, now we are building from that point.

[Capt_Uhura]

Janice - I LOVED your post! THank you!

[deeinfl]

Wow Janice, what a post! You've got me reconsidering WWS. :) I'm going to go check it out one more time right now.

 

Dee

 

ps We are loving IEW right now but I'm not sure we will use it longterm for several of the reasons that have already been mentioned, however, it has been great for teaching my eldest son structure; Style he already had.

[Beth in SW WA]

Thanks, Janice. I, too, wish WWS was around when my olders were in middle school. I slogged through w/ CW Homer & eventually dd took English 2 via TPS.

 

I won't miss WWS with my dds. Dd8 won't be ready for awhile so I'll just enjoy reading progress reports until then... :)

[5LittleMonkeys]

WWS respects the logic stage. The child is analyzing and writing slanted character descriptions by week seventeen. This kind of analysis is useful across the curriculum - in history, science, and literature. Finally, a program that recognizes that middle-schoolers are ready to unearth author bias.

 

WWS respects the child's ear. In week seventeen, the student begins altering sentences by examining their grammatical structure and recasting prepositional phrases as descriptive adjectives. Rather than save concision for later, the program addresses it right away. IEW admits that certain dress-ups are clunky; as the writer matures, they "fall off the checklist." Bauer jumps directly to integrating the child's grammar curriculum into the composition program. Grammar exercises become relevant; they are useful now rather than something to save for later. For example, upper level writing programs encourage writers to eliminate useless adverbs. The verbs should be doing the heavy lifting in the sentence. In this case, the thesaurus is the writer's friend. You would never say, "The sailor pulled diligently on the oar." Instead you write, "The sailor strained against the oar." In general, -ly adverbs are dead wood. In the WWS copia lessons, the child is instructed to read her work aloud and generate new constructions through conscious grammatical choices until her ear is satisfied - not until the checklist is satisfied.

 

WWS uses adult-level tools. Unlike IEW which provides lists of synonyms to choose from, WWS explains how to use an adult thesaurus very early in the program. Rather than provide a crutch, WWS jumps right to the adult tool. The crutch isn't necessary. In this case the crutch sends the wrong message. In real life, no one provides a printed list of the words to hang on the wall. Writing takes time. Loads of time. It's hard work; sometimes you have to look up a word in that big, huge book. Often it pays to work on a sentence until it's Goldilocks-just-right. (Looking for a good synonym for "foolish"? Goldilocks could be witless, moronic, or maudlin. Hmmmm.... dictionary, please. Just as you might choose to color a zebra purple, you might want to color Goldilocks maudlin. But you would want to make that choice intentionally. Someone might question it; you'll want an answer at the ready. ANOTHER teaching moment. NOT to be missed. Priceless, actually.)

 

WWS asks the child to analyze more sophisticated excerpts.

 

The program even addresses active and passive voice. In the level 5 text. She instructs the student when to eliminate it and when to use it.

 

 

 

Oh. my. That is a very persuasive piece of writing. I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread. I've avoided it up until just now. :glare: Hmmmm, free first 20 weeks? Hmmmm....

[Chloe]

Thanks so much, Janice! I have been leaning towards WWS, and now I feel my decision has been confirmed.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Hi. I used IEW years ago to get my oldest moving. It worked. He started writing.

 

I have the longer 20-week pdf's of WWS. I would heartily recommend that you take your kids through the program.

 

The teacher's guide is simple and direct. Just do what it says every day. Unlike IEW, there is no grand scheme to unravel. It's open and go.

 

WWS respects the logic stage. The child is analyzing and writing slanted character descriptions by week seventeen. This kind of analysis is useful across the curriculum - in history, science, and literature. Finally, a program that recognizes that middle-schoolers are ready to unearth author bias.

 

WWS respects the child's ear. In week seventeen, the student begins altering sentences by examining their grammatical structure and recasting prepositional phrases as descriptive adjectives. Rather than save concision for later, the program addresses it right away. IEW admits that certain dress-ups are clunky; as the writer matures, they "fall off the checklist." Bauer jumps directly to integrating the child's grammar curriculum into the composition program. Grammar exercises become relevant; they are useful now rather than something to save for later. For example, upper level writing programs encourage writers to eliminate useless adverbs. The verbs should be doing the heavy lifting in the sentence. In this case, the thesaurus is the writer's friend. You would never say, "The sailor pulled diligently on the oar." Instead you write, "The sailor strained against the oar." In general, -ly adverbs are dead wood. In the WWS copia lessons, the child is instructed to read her work aloud and generate new constructions through conscious grammatical choices until her ear is satisfied - not until the checklist is satisfied.

 

WWS uses adult-level tools. Unlike IEW which provides lists of synonyms to choose from, WWS explains how to use an adult thesaurus very early in the program. Rather than provide a crutch, WWS jumps right to the adult tool. The crutch isn't necessary. In this case the crutch sends the wrong message. In real life, no one provides a printed list of the words to hang on the wall. Writing takes time. Loads of time. It's hard work; sometimes you have to look up a word in that big, huge book. Often it pays to work on a sentence until it's Goldilocks-just-right. (Looking for a good synonym for "foolish"? Goldilocks could be witless, moronic, or maudlin. Hmmmm.... dictionary, please. Just as you might choose to color a zebra purple, you might want to color Goldilocks maudlin. But you would want to make that choice intentionally. Someone might question it; you'll want an answer at the ready. ANOTHER teaching moment. NOT to be missed. Priceless, actually.)

 

WWS asks the child to analyze more sophisticated excerpts.

 

The program even addresses active and passive voice. In the level 5 text. She instructs the student when to eliminate it and when to use it.

 

I could go on.

 

The programs are not equal.

 

I used IEW. Sure, my kids started writing. The program generated relief. That was priceless at the time. But we had to go back and undo a slew of bad habits. I knew they were bad habits. My kids knew it too; they could hear it when they read their work aloud. But I was desperate to move past endless S-P constructions and groans of, "I have no idea what to write." At the time I couldn't find any other path.

 

WWS is gold. Don't pass it up.

 

(Sheesh! I sound like a commercial.) Can you believe some of us tried to do ancient history with first graders before SOTW? Yup. We exist. When SOTW with the activity guide was published, we gushed. "Where has this been? Where?" It's a bit like spending four years hacking through the jungle only to look back and see someone else being offered a newly paved, four-lane highway and an air-conditioned Jag for the journey. It's a bit bewildered to think that, given the options, someone else might be strapping on hiking boots and picking up a machete.

 

But I get it: I'm projecting. One man's machete is another man's sports car. I understand. I'm sure IEW is still a great fit for some families. However, I can't imagine comparing it to WWS. They are not in the same category.

 

My opinion. For what it's worth.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

Janice,

You do sound like a commercial, but I loved reading it. It makes me rethink my decision of doing IEW. I already purchased it, but haven't started it. My sons are 9 and 7 and we are using WWE 1, 2 and 3 now for them. I wonder if I should finish WWE 3 with ds9 and start IEW SWI A to get him started and then go on to WWS? Please advise since you have done both. Or should I stick to WWE and move him on to WWE 4 after WWE 3? He does enjoy doing it.

Thanks!

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Just FYI, I posted this link in the stickied thread about WWS. This is my working scope and sequence, so it may not be terribly helpful...but if you have questions I'll try to answer them.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Topoi-expanded.pdf

[Heather in VA]

Oops - wrong thread

[fiddle]

We're using IEW Student Intensive B (just started), and it has been extremely helpful with my dd who is 6th grade and 1st year homeschooling. She was totally overwhelmed with having to do any outlining or summarizing and was not taught that skill in public school.

 

I've also been taking a look at the WWS for next year. It looks really good, but my dd hasn't done any of the WWE or really learned classical narration. I've looked at quite a few of the IEW materials and it looks like they DO have a lot of material for older students (even one specifically on doing 20+pg research papers, one on doing rhetoric, essay intensive for the SAT, etc.)

 

I guess my question is to those who've used both IEW and WWS, do you think it's too confusing to continue IEW and do WWS? And would it be too much of a burden workload-wise? I plan to do a lit program for dd next year, but would it be too much to do literary analysis through another program, WWS and maybe IEW theme based like Middle Ages (which we planned on studying anyway). And do you think the skills set out in WWS are so different than the skills taught in IEW that it's a "must"?

 

I know that before WWS came out, there were many who used IEW exclusively and all the way through high school. So, I'm just trying to get some perspective and am suffering from the "wanting to do it all" syndrome, but I don't want to overload my reluctant, now blossoming, writer. :001_huh:

 

Any thoughts appreciate!

Paula

[fluffybunny]

The reason I chose WWE and WWS was because the thought of sitting through 8 hours of parent training videos of IEW gave me a headache. WWS works great with my very reluctant writer. Plus he has already had years of SOTW and knows "Susan". So, if he says: "I don't wanna do it this way", I merely have to say: "well, Susan says you have to to it this way" he will do it. - I hope that if you are reading this, SWB, that you'll get a laugh out of it. - I also told him that "Susan" was writing the next book WWS2 so he'd better make sure he finishes this one in time, and he replied: "What, you means she's still alive!!!?" LOL

Edited April 13, 2012 by fluffybunny

[Crimson Wife]

WWE/WWS is affordable...

[brownie]

DS11 has done 2 years of IEW. It's great...I love it. I plan to try WWS next year with him to develop some new skills/tools.

 

DS9 is in his first year of IEW. It's even better for him. He's not only reluctant to write new content (journal entries make him cry), but also hates the thought of writing a full page of material. He can write an outline and then dictate his paragraph to me. I write it on the dry erase board where he can see it and we edit and add style together. He actually smiles!

 

I don't know if I will pull ds9 into WWS or leave him another year in IEW. I need to get my hands on WWS before I decide.

 

Brownie

[Cosmos]

The reason I chose WWE and WWS was because the thought of sitting through 8 hours of parent training videos of IEW gave me a headache. WWS works great with my very reluctant writer. Plus he has already had years of SOTW and knows "Susan". So, if he says: "I wanna do it this way", I merely have to say: "well, Susan says you have to to it this way" he will do it. - I hope that if you are reading this, SWB, that you'll get a laugh out of it. - I also told him that "Susan" was writing the next book WWS2 so he'd better make sure he finishes this one in time, and he replied: "What, you means she's still alive!!!?" LOL

 

:lol:

 

I'm going to have to try the "Susan says so" line. I bet that would work with my ds too.

[Mommamia]

Bumping because I found Janice's thoughts so helpful.

[Jim]

We've used both WWE and IEW's SWI-A and theme-based programs. First, wethought they dovetailed nicely with WWE working on the mental aspects of writing and IEW getting pen to paper using outlining and technical tools.

 

Most are already familiar with WWE. It's open and go if using the workbooks. Lessons are short and painless.

 

IEW seems more complicated, though it need not be so. We started with the full program, the disks that explain the program entirely and allow you to impliment it yourself and SWI-A. In the SWI-A Mr. P. teaches the lesson and leaves the child to complete the task. Each lesson adds a new tool, such as a new sentence opener or -ly adverb, to the toolbox available to the writer. It's important to understand that when practicing all the tools the result might sound odd. The goal is to practice all the tools. Later, as the writer matures they can decide when it's appropriate to use certain tools and to discard others (in the writing project at hand) and that will result in a polished product. I think this is the most misunderstood aspect of IEW's approach.

 

As for the parent disks. There is no need to view them in total. When using the dvds the instructions will alert the adult when it's time to watch the next segment. I like to stay a section or two ahead so I see where we're headed.

 

Many ask whether you need the parent dvds at all. If using the SWI series it's not necessary though I would recommend them. For the theme-based I think they are needed, unless you've already completed an SWI product.

 

Like WWE, once you understand the program you could do it yourself. That's where the parent disks are required since you would need to understand each step. That could be you're only investment in writing over a number of years and any number of children and is, therefore, not as expensive as many believe.

 

As to cost, The resale value of IEW products is strong, approaching 75% of new. They are non-consumable. And, if you purchase the program directly you can return the product at any time if you decide not to use it or feel it didn't work for you - no time limit. They pay shipping. Basically, they stand behind it and want you to be satisfied.

 

I can't comment on WWS other to say I will probably buy the first phase to review. If it is a better fit for ds at the time we would consider switching or using both if it's not overwhelming. If it's anything like WWE I'm sure it will do the job. I also feel IEW does the job.

 

 

Jim

[Heathermomster]

Janice summed up my thoughts about IEW rather well.

 

My son is presently using IEW's ATFF with an O-G tutor. DS is dyslexic and everyone I know locally recommends IEW for these kiddos. A few words come to mind each time I think of my son's class: irritating, pedantic, and fussy. Obviously, YMMV.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Heathermomster
I wasn't homeschooled...

[TNLisa]

I totally agree with Janice's post! After three years of Writing Strands (didn't ever try IEW) WWS is a breath of fresh air! I, too, thought "where has this been all my life?" ha-ha!

Love the program, and love that my daughter is finally understanding and able to follow through with writing skills.

[BlsdMama]

I think it would be fine to do both. I wanted to add WWE to the small group of 3rd graders I'm teaching Fairy Tales... too but the other mom's thought it's be too much. I think it would be a winning combo.

 

 

I've taught IEW to three levels now 3rd through 11th. We're doing Elegant Essay and we're preparing to start one of the themed books.

 

My son is ALSO doing WWS.

 

I feel IEW is excellent for hesitant writers because it gives them a structure to follow - a "recipe." I think it is far harder for great writers, because it feels "false." I think if you're teaching a struggling writer you will LOVE it. I feel if you are teaching a naturally competent writer, teach it other than how it is intended. ;) In other words, you use his teaching as "suggestions" and "tools" rather than a how to write course.

 

I will say I love Elegant Essay.

 

DS is using WWS. He's an eighth grader, so older than your average WWS student. We're only in week six. However, it is completely self contained and no needing source materials. Compared to IEW it is both a perk and a drawback. IEW also gives source materials (some in the packets that come with TWSS and the SWIs and more you can purchase) but the beauty is that they learn to apply it to their history reading and their science reading. With WWS, you use what is there. I like it because it's EASY.

 

WWS is certainly written TO the student. IEW is definitely a teacher hands-on class. I would tell you to get the TWSS over the SWI any day of the week. I feel the TWSS is VITAL and the SWI is optional.

 

We have also used the test prep writing from IEW. That was VERY useful but only for a junior or senior.

 

I am a die-hard IEW fan, even though I definitely see the drawbacks. The drawbacks being formulaic writing. BUT, I will also say that most people who believe IEW is only formulaic are the ones who used it either when their kids were young, *or* they used it for only a year, *or* they are uncomfortable teaching writing.

 

I think kids who spend time (a few years) in IEW use the formulas to get comfy in writing and then move on using it as a guide rather than a rule and their writing is well beyond what it otherwise would have been if they had never followed the "formula" for a couple years. ;)

 

That said, it takes TIME. IEW isn't something to use for this year then tuck away.

 

WWS is lovely because you feel like you're really getting through something, lol, whereas with IEW you can wonder if you're actually making progress.

 

I've used WWE a little. I'm actually going back to it for DD(10) and DD(8).

 

Both DS (13) and DD(10) will be using both writing curriculums.

DD(10) - Medieval theme via IEW and WWE(4)

DS(13) - WWS and Medieval theme and EE

 

 

It looks like "too much" but I feel it's how you apply it and how the rest of their workload looks.

 

My DS finds very little challenging. He can have all of his work done by noon including WWS. So, adding in IEW is only a tiny bit and I feel he needs the additional writing instruction coming from more than one angle.

 

My DD also can have her work done very quickly and I am hoping this isn't too much for her. She does well with the hands-on approach of IEW with checklists. WWE is super light and easy and she is very familiar with KWO and re-writing a la IEW so I don't believe she'll find IEW overwhelming as long as we proceed gently.

 

So, yes, I think both can be used in tandem. (I actually decided to use CW last year and that was too much for me because I was unfamiliar with the program. I dropped it this year in favor of using the two other programs together.)

[PeterPan]

DS is using WWS. He's an eighth grader, so older than your average WWS student.

 

Just wanted to suggest that I don't think this is the case. :) There seem to be a *lot* of people using WWS with 7th and 8th graders, to the point where I'm about convinced that's the average age and the 5th graders are the outliers. So many people lurk, it's probably hard to get accurate data. There are definitely a lot of people using it with 7th or 8th graders (or older), and in general it seems like those users are happier and having less complaints of struggling with independence, long lessons, etc. I don't think anyone should have the sense that their kid is behind if he's doing it in 7th or 8th or that the dc "ought" to be able to do it in 5th.

 

On the combining thing, well we really don't have time. She's doubling up some of the WWS lessons, and the lit, grammar, and history we're doing have essay responses and writing assignments. Actually I've been saving those extra writing assignments from the lit and grammar. I'm thinking maybe in the summer or when we finish WWS we'll go back and do them. Certainly some *variety* is nice. I just didn't want to stretch out WWS. Tedium seems to be the major complaint people have with it, so I concluded it was better to get in, get it done, and move on to something more broad for the rest of the year. So I'm suggesting someone could do WWS *then* IEW. We just don't have stamina in our house to do them both at the same time.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

I am a die-hard IEW fan, even though I definitely see the drawbacks. The drawbacks being formulaic writing. BUT, I will also say that most people who believe IEW is only formulaic are the ones who used it either when their kids were young, *or* they used it for only a year, *or* they are uncomfortable teaching writing.

 

I think kids who spend time (a few years) in IEW use the formulas to get comfy in writing and then move on using it as a guide rather than a rule and their writing is well beyond what it otherwise would have been if they had never followed the "formula" for a couple years. ;)

 

 

 

:iagree: When my two oldest were first going through IEW I saw a lot of formulaic writing, but as their writing skills matured and they gained more experience I could definitely see how they were taking all those stylistic tools and molding them into their own voice. They both have very distinct and different writing styles from each other. Something you wouldn't see if they truly were only following the IEW "formula".

 

Just wanted to suggest that I don't think this is the case. :) There seem to be a *lot* of people using WWS with 7th and 8th graders, to the point where I'm about convinced that's the average age and the 5th graders are the outliers. So many people lurk, it's probably hard to get accurate data. There are definitely a lot of people using it with 7th or 8th graders (or older), and in general it seems like those users are happier and having less complaints of struggling with independence, long lessons, etc. I don't think anyone should have the sense that their kid is behind if he's doing it in 7th or 8th or that the dc "ought" to be able to do it in 5th.

 

 

 

I'm using it with a 7th\8th and my 9th grader is using it at an accelerated pace. I tend to agree with OhElizabeth about 5th graders breezing through WWS not being the norm. At the very beginning of last year when the 20 week sample first came out I tried it with dd13 and it was way, way too stressful for her. After a year of intense IEW use though she is now plowing through WWS pretty easily.

 

We still use IEW methods as far as making sure to include variation in sentence structures, including stylistic elements, staying away from overused "banned" words, being careful to choose strong verbs and adjectives when appropriate, and making sure to open a paragraph with a strong sentence and closing with a good wrap up. I'll also assign compositions to be written in science and history that they will use fused outlines for.

 

It's been neat to see them doing WWS assignments that contain elements they learned from IEW thrown in. I firmly believe that if they hadn't had that IEW experience their writing would still sound stilted and immature. (Starting every sentence with the subject, and using the shortest most boring words imaginable.:tongue_smilie:)

 

I plan to use a combo of WWE and IEW for the grammar stage (through 5th grade) with all of my remaining children, and assess whether they are ready for WWS in 6th grade. Once they start WWS they will have several years of experience with IEW methods and hopefully, as my two oldest have done, will continue to use the skills they learned to confidently begin focusing on the content of their work more.

[Pink and Green Mom]

After a year of intense IEW use though she is now plowing through WWS pretty easily.

 

We still use IEW methods as far as making sure to include variation in sentence structures, including stylistic elements, staying away from overused "banned" words, being careful to choose strong verbs and adjectives when appropriate, and making sure to open a paragraph with a strong sentence and closing with a good wrap up. I'll also assign compositions to be written in science and history that they will use fused outlines for.

 

It's been neat to see them doing WWS assignments that contain elements they learned from IEW thrown in. I firmly believe that if they hadn't had that IEW experience their writing would still sound stilted and immature. (Starting every sentence with the subject, and using the shortest most boring words imaginable.:tongue_smilie:)

 

I plan to use a combo of WWE and IEW for the grammar stage (through 5th grade) with all of my remaining children, and assess whether they are ready for WWS in 6th grade. Once they start WWS they will have several years of experience with IEW methods and hopefully, as my two oldest have done, will continue to use the skills they learned to confidently begin focusing on the content of their work more.

 

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for this. I have been wringing my hands over what to do with my 5th grade very reluctant writer. We began the school year with WWS and he is just not ready. We are using IEW through Classical Conversations Essentials and your post has given me the push I needed to put WWS on the shelf for another year and get him more comfortable with IEW, which he doesn't seem to have the same "mental block" over.

 

You have made my day.:D

[nukeswife]

I see this is an old thread but I've been bouncing around with writing for years and we've tried IEW, WWE and WWS. My oldest son is in 8th grade and we really need to figure out a plan to stick with. IEW is easy for me because someone else can teach it (Mr. P) but I like what I saw with WWS. He doesn't need WWE anymore, he can do a good narration. Last year we tried WWS, he said he loved it praised SWB, then we hit day 4 of week 1. That assignment had him in tears. I know it's a "challenge" thing, but Oy after that one we had to just walk away from writing for a long time, I know we didn't really give WWS a good honest try and would love to do it again, but I'm afraid of that assignment.

 

Any advice on that? He's currently reviewing IEW and we'll get to the report writing unit soon (we never made it that far before, yes I know I dropped the ball here)

[PeterPan]

I see this is an old thread but I've been bouncing around with writing for years and we've tried IEW, WWE and WWS. My oldest son is in 8th grade and we really need to figure out a plan to stick with. IEW is easy for me because someone else can teach it (Mr. P) but I like what I saw with WWS. He doesn't need WWE anymore, he can do a good narration. Last year we tried WWS, he said he loved it praised SWB, then we hit day 4 of week 1. That assignment had him in tears. I know it's a "challenge" thing, but Oy after that one we had to just walk away from writing for a long time, I know we didn't really give WWS a good honest try and would love to do it again, but I'm afraid of that assignment.

 

Any advice on that? He's currently reviewing IEW and we'll get to the report writing unit soon (we never made it that far before, yes I know I dropped the ball here)

 

Well I can only tell you how we handled that. It was apparent after day 1 I was going to have to help her some. I started going through every lesson and highlighting the jist. Well, like your ds, she was pretty stumped and muffled at points the first couple weeks. I had to actually sit down with her and walk her through them. I was pretty much in despair, but it turns out she just needed to see the pattern and where it was going. The later weeks just add one new twist to what they've already done. So if you can *get him through* those first few weeks and hold his hand as much as it takes, he *might* be fine after that.

 

We had a lot of "You mean all she really wanted me to do was read it and write that one line in the reference section of my notebook?!?! Why didn't she just say that?!?!" Oh the mind of a 13 yo, lol. So whatever is causing the problem, you might help him through it more than you think you ought to have to. For us it settled down once she started seeing the pattern.