please share your "gave up on full-quiver" stories

[Ipsey]

. . .or any related "used-to-be-anti-birth-control, but-am-now-for-it."

 

I've been trying to read some places online for support, but not really finding anything as I try to . . . deal with my change of thinking.

 

When I first married, I was interested in going "no-birth-control" if not necessarily full-quiver.

 

I prayed over it, presented my hopes to my husband, But we decided to use birth control for a while and then go off BC when we were financially ready, and "let God" do the rest.

 

After 5 c-sections, 5 happy, healthy, wonderful children, painful recurrent inguinal hernias with each, I got my tubes tied.

 

I'm also an atheist now.

 

I have several Christian friends who used to be anti-BC and even full-quiver, but after having "real life" happen to them, most are on some form of BC, or family planning, etc. I haven't really had the courage to talk to them about it because I know the issue of my apostasy will come up.

 

I've been thinking of this more lately because the couple who wrote "Open Embrace: A Protestant Couple Reconsiders Contraception," have recently explained they are no longer anti-BC, and are divorced, remarried and very liberal Christians. In fact, they repudiate their former book.

 

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone would share their stories, how it changed their faith, etc. Anything related to once being anti-BC and now being pro.

 

Please, if your purpose is to convince other people that BC or family planning is wrong, feel free to start your own thread, but I'm hoping this one can be a kind, caring one for those who have had to make big, difficult changes from something they once believed in.

 

I'll be happy to share more of my own journey on this issue as soon as I can get back to the computer. I have to get dinner on now :)

 

Lots of hungry mouths around here!

 

:)

[Denisemomof4]

dh made the decision for me. I have a slight scoliosis, and pregnancy was VERY hard on me. My boys were HUGE and gave me SEVERE back pain. Once I was stuck on the couch until dh got home to help me up so I could pee. I almost didn't make it for his return. He watched me suffer through three pregnancies and then said he couldn't watch me suffer anymore. He got a V and that was that.

 

Then we adopted. I was already praying for our second adoption and I hadn't even had our first child in our hands! She came to us with severe behavioral issues and we were done at 4. I knew I'd never adopt again.

 

So that is how we came to 4. I always wanted six, dh wanted 2, so we have the perfect number. I still wish, sometimes, that we had had more, but I think 4 was truly perfect for us. Certainly not quiver full. :sad:

[Ginevra]

I don't know for sure if I would fit the category you're looking for, because dh was never on board with the QF concept, but I was about 95% in that category. (The remaining 5% was that I don't think QF is right for everybody and I don't think it's "sinning" to use BC.)

 

After we had 2 kids, dh did not want any more, but I had "been convicted" of QF. (I put in quotes, because, while the story of how I came to think that way is truly astounding, I can't be certain any longer that that was God leading me to it.) I prayed every day that if it be God's will, he would bring another child into our lives. Almost a year after I began that prayer, dh abruptly and spectacularly changed his mind and conceded to have another baby. (Even the way that happened was amazing enough to look miraculous.)

 

It took us 10 months to conceive, but it was the most peaceful and wonderful time I've ever had. It was 100% in God's hands and I was not anxious about anything.

 

We finally did conceive. The pregnancy was also wonderful. I felt incredibly blessed and rewarded by God for trusting in Him. I still continued to pray everyday for this perfect baby that was my great reward, proof that God is faithful.

 

At 39 weeks and 2 days, my water broke and I prepared to go have my baby. To make a long and horrible story short, my precious baby girl died in utero, about an hour before birth.

 

You might think this immediately changed my mind about QF and God's role in birth, but it didn't. I still trusted God to bring children in His correct timing if it was His Plan. I had thoughts of not wanting to get pregnant for at least six months after my traumatic birth and loss. But it was prayed over and still left in God's hands.

 

Right on the mark, I got pregnant again six months after Lydia's death. I assembled a band of good people who would pray for my new baby every day and plead for mercy on my behalf.

 

Let me interject for a minute here and say that during this time, the only other person I knew IRL who was QF also suffered a terrible tragedy surrounding birth and lost a daughter. I remember bawling in my closet, on my knees with my forehead on the floor, screaming at God, "WHY! Why do you crush those who trust in You?! Why do you take life from those who have opened to it?"

 

My prayer team had a very short assignment. I miscarried that baby at 8 weeks.

 

This is when something happened to me inside. At the very least, faith as I knew it ended. I could not trust the same. A deep and severe apathy settled into my soul. It didn't happen immediately, but I did go apostate for a couple of years, or I went with Deism.

 

I got pregnant again with my youngest, Mason. I could not pray. I no longer could ask for God's will to be done because I know longer trusted it. I could not pray to sustain the life of my baby when God had turned his back on my prayers earlier. Mason arrived, though that birth was dicey, too. For a moment, I was astounded that he was alive.

 

DH has long been "done," though nothing official or permanent. For a long time, I hoped against hope that we would have or adopt another child. That is looking pretty unlikely now. I came back to the faith, but I still have deep scars and I don't think it's possible for me to really have that "first love" kind of faith again. If God had tripped my mind and given me another couple of kids or changed dh's heart about it, it might have almost made up for it, but that hasn't happened yet and I am almost at the point of not wanting it anymore. I still wish I had a family of 6 or 7 kids, or 4 (living) at the very least, but the practicalities are weighing extremely far against it by now.

 

The center-point of my hurt is this: If God did lead me to QF, as I believed, what was the point? We have 3 living children, broken hearts and shattered faith. Why did He get me to say Yes so that he could cruelly tell me No? We're certainly not any wonderful testimony to trusting God with family size.

 

I still honestly don't know what to think about how the beginning part of this story went - my mind was changed towards QF in ways that did look like Divine Intervention. But the end result is that, not just because of my story, but because of so many other stories where more children were not a good plan and God did not "rescue" people from pain or tragedy or hardship because they trusted Him.

 

If you read all that, I applaud you! ;)

[NotSoObvious]

What does full quiver mean???

[Blueridge]

Let's be careful about sharing so much personal information here. Just sayin'.

[Ipsey]

Let's be careful about sharing so much personal information here. Just sayin'.

 

Thank you for the reminder. I'm sure we're all grown-ups enough to take these matters into account when we're posting personal stories.

[Ipsey]

What does full quiver mean???

 

A belief espoused by some Christians that a married couple should do nothing to prevent conception, under any circumstances, including medical reasons, finances, etc. The bearing of children is the Lord's, and only His, to grant. One is not to thwart, or make extraordinary effort in the conception of offspring.

 

You can find lots on it if you'll Google.

[Ipsey]

dh made the decision for me. I have a slight scoliosis, and pregnancy was VERY hard on me. My boys were HUGE and gave me SEVERE back pain. Once I was stuck on the couch until dh got home to help me up so I could pee. I almost didn't make it for his return. He watched me suffer through three pregnancies and then said he couldn't watch me suffer anymore. He got a V and that was that.

 

Then we adopted. I was already praying for our second adoption and I hadn't even had our first child in our hands! She came to us with severe behavioral issues and we were done at 4. I knew I'd never adopt again.

 

So that is how we came to 4. I always wanted six, dh wanted 2, so we have the perfect number. I still wish, sometimes, that we had had more, but I think 4 was truly perfect for us. Certainly not quiver full. :sad:

 

I'm sorry for your grief in not being QF. I hope you have much healing and joy in your family. Thanks for sharing.

[Ipsey]

I don't know for sure if I would fit the category you're looking for, because dh was never on board with the QF concept, but I was about 95% in that category. (The remaining 5% was that I don't think QF is right for everybody and I don't think it's "sinning" to use BC.)

 

After we had 2 kids, dh did not want any more, but I had "been convicted" of QF. (I put in quotes, because, while the story of how I came to think that way is truly astounding, I can't be certain any longer that that was God leading me to it.) I prayed every day that if it be God's will, he would bring another child into our lives. Almost a year after I began that prayer, dh abruptly and spectacularly changed his mind and conceded to have another baby. (Even the way that happened was amazing enough to look miraculous.)

 

It took us 10 months to conceive, but it was the most peaceful and wonderful time I've ever had. It was 100% in God's hands and I was not anxious about anything.

 

We finally did conceive. The pregnancy was also wonderful. I felt incredibly blessed and rewarded by God for trusting in Him. I still continued to pray everyday for this perfect baby that was my great reward, proof that God is faithful.

 

At 39 weeks and 2 days, my water broke and I prepared to go have my baby. To make a long and horrible story short, my precious baby girl died in utero, about an hour before birth.

 

You might think this immediately changed my mind about QF and God's role in birth, but it didn't. I still trusted God to bring children in His correct timing if it was His Plan. I had thoughts of not wanting to get pregnant for at least six months after my traumatic birth and loss. But it was prayed over and still left in God's hands.

 

Right on the mark, I got pregnant again six months after Lydia's death. I assembled a band of good people who would pray for my new baby every day and plead for mercy on my behalf.

 

Let me interject for a minute here and say that during this time, the only other person I knew IRL who was QF also suffered a terrible tragedy surrounding birth and lost a daughter. I remember bawling in my closet, on my knees with my forehead on the floor, screaming at God, "WHY! Why do you crush those who trust in You?! Why do you take life from those who have opened to it?"

 

My prayer team had a very short assignment. I miscarried that baby at 8 weeks.

 

This is when something happened to me inside. At the very least, faith as I knew it ended. I could not trust the same. A deep and severe apathy settled into my soul. It didn't happen immediately, but I did go apostate for a couple of years, or I went with Deism.

 

I got pregnant again with my youngest, Mason. I could not pray. I no longer could ask for God's will to be done because I know longer trusted it. I could not pray to sustain the life of my baby when God had turned his back on my prayers earlier. Mason arrived, though that birth was dicey, too. For a moment, I was astounded that he was alive.

 

DH has long been "done," though nothing official or permanent. For a long time, I hoped against hope that we would have or adopt another child. That is looking pretty unlikely now. I came back to the faith, but I still have deep scars and I don't think it's possible for me to really have that "first love" kind of faith again. If God had tripped my mind and given me another couple of kids or changed dh's heart about it, it might have almost made up for it, but that hasn't happened yet and I am almost at the point of not wanting it anymore. I still wish I had a family of 6 or 7 kids, or 4 (living) at the very least, but the practicalities are weighing extremely far against it by now.

 

The center-point of my hurt is this: If God did lead me to QF, as I believed, what was the point? We have 3 living children, broken hearts and shattered faith. Why did He get me to say Yes so that he could cruelly tell me No? We're certainly not any wonderful testimony to trusting God with family size.

 

I still honestly don't know what to think about how the beginning part of this story went - my mind was changed towards QF in ways that did look like Divine Intervention. But the end result is that, not just because of my story, but because of so many other stories where more children were not a good plan and God did not "rescue" people from pain or tragedy or hardship because they trusted Him.

 

If you read all that, I applaud you! ;)

 

Thanks so much for sharing. These are some of the things I've been dealing with. I'm so sorry for your losses. Heart-breaking. I can't begin to imagine.

 

It's been tough looking back and knowing I'd have made different choices if I'd known we'd be in the situation we're in now. Not that I'd give up any of my children. Not one! But that's a different story. I love them so much. But if I could go back and talk to the me of 21. . . I think things might have turned out differently with my family (If I'd have listened to me ;)

 

The religious/spiritual aspect was a real tough one for me, and still is. As I deconvert, I've been thinking back on my previous beliefs and how I came to them, and how I see them differently now.

 

Particularly with what's happening in Sudan. You see the pictures of the starving children, and it's just horrifying. Back in my more anti-BC days, I believed that God would provide, that every child was a blessing, and that His love was so great, and his providence so perfect, that He would maintain us whatever our financial situation. But, I think part of that was based on my own, limited experience as a fortunate American. There are Christian children, born to Christian parents who starve to death. Hundreds of them. Have been thousands of them. But it wouldn't happen to me.

 

Girls as young as 9 and 10 are having babies in some cultures, where they are wedded to older men. They die in child birth. I wonder if these babies are a blessing to.

 

I just came to the acceptance that not every baby is a blessing in every situation. It was just an easy thing for me to pretend.

 

I love babies. I love children. I certainly love my own children. But the reality I saw was different than what I was trying to convince myself of when I was anti-bc/pro-God.

 

Thanks again. I don't want to start a war; I just want to hear from others. Thinking, and sharing with other people has been very helpful, and sort of like a therapeutic thing. I'm grateful to you.

[eloquacious]

My husband and I were never really "quiver full," though before we married, we joked about having enough children to fill a Sprinter. Really, though? I think we were going for five or six, with the plan of having them in a reasonable period of time and then using non-hormonal/ non-abortifacient BC to limit our family's size.

 

We did nothing to prevent a pregnancy, and conceived more or less on the first go around, and our first son was baptized on our first wedding anniversary. His birth was... not what we planned. Our home birth turned into an emergency Cesarean. Then came the colic. OH THE COLIC.

 

At that point, we were pretty sure one was it for us! ;)

 

As soon as he was walking and sleeping through the night and reasonably independent, we suddenly felt as though the time was right to go for #2. When that turned into Cesarean #2 (my second son was pretending he was "Superman" by sticking his arm out in front of his head), a busybody nurse came in and declared, "You know this means you can only have three, right?" I was so angry. Not only is this not true (we have several women in our acquaintance who have had four, one woman who has had five, and two women who have had 6 Cesarean deliveries) but I was just plain annoyed with her interference.

 

Something clicked in my husband's head at that point, though. He decided then and there that we would have three, and that's it. It suits us and our lifestyle better for a number of reasons, and rationally I get it. But still, I had hoped for four or five, so it's a bit of a blow.

 

Right now I'm praying that #3 turns into #s 3 and 4. :-P Twins might be crazy, but that's one way to solve the "only one more Cesarean" rule!

[NotSoObvious]

A belief espoused by some Christians that a married couple should do nothing to prevent conception, under any circumstances, including medical reasons, finances, etc. The bearing of children is the Lord's, and only His, to grant. One is not to thwart, or make extraordinary effort in the conception of offspring.

 

You can find lots on it if you'll Google.

 

Ahhhhhh, thanks.

[eloquacious]

Incidentally, though I know the OP is coming from a post-Christian viewpoint, our church is doing a study on Bioethics this summer, and I found our birth control discussion to be very edifying. Our church body is diverse. We have couples who are childless due to medical necessity and choice, those with two children, and those with five or more, who also foster kids all the time. (We had a family a few years back with ten, but six is our maximum now, with most settling in at three to five.)

 

If you are at all interested, the link to the audio is here: http://emmanuelphx.org/bioethics-course/the-family-birth-control-and-fertility/

 

I believe that our teacher, a full-time firefighter and part-time college professor who just happens to be awesome, did a fantastic job here, especially given the philosophical differences in our church body when it comes to this topic.

[Ginevra]

The religious/spiritual aspect was a real tough one for me, and still is. As I deconvert, I've been thinking back on my previous beliefs and how I came to them, and how I see them differently now.

 

Particularly with what's happening in Sudan. You see the pictures of the starving children, and it's just horrifying. Back in my more anti-BC days, I believed that God would provide, that every child was a blessing, and that His love was so great, and his providence so perfect, that He would maintain us whatever our financial situation. But, I think part of that was based on my own, limited experience as a fortunate American. There are Christian children, born to Christian parents who starve to death. Hundreds of them. Have been thousands of them. But it wouldn't happen to me.

 

Girls as young as 9 and 10 are having babies in some cultures, where they are wedded to older men. They die in child birth. I wonder if these babies are a blessing to.

 

I just came to the acceptance that not every baby is a blessing in every situation. It was just an easy thing for me to pretend.

 

This sort of thing played into my thinking as well, after it started to fall apart for me. I was on the internet e-mail loop for QF and I saw a lot of things that looked quite bad to me. I couldn't just shrug and say, "God works in mysterious ways," just as that has never been a satisfactory answer for the tragedy I endured.

[Dobela]

I had hoped for 5 or 6. Dh waas open to any number as he had 5 siblings. THen I couldn't get pregnant. I had waited too long ( I was 28 when I married) and my reproductive organs were beyond repair. When we turned to adoption, again planning on a full house beliving that our quiver would come thru adoption, I had some very insensitive things said to me, including "You must be harboring sin. If you would just confess I am sure GOd will heal your body and allow you to have children." My son's private adoption happened quickly and easily in 2000. THen we moved to foster care and it was a long horrible road. By the time our dd's adoption was finalized in 2009, we said no more. Our hearts and our emotions were closed. I have no desire for more children. Fortunately most of our friends are not quiverful but we do have some that think we have too little faith and are giving up too soon.

[meggie]

I was never quiverfull, but I was anti birth control. C*nd*ms and NFP were ok. When we got married, I had planned on having 5-8 kids. After two, I realized that I was in over my head. Digby was a really tough baby and not sleeping made me psycho. When I was pregnant with Chuck, I really was at the end of my rope. After she was born, I was going to get my tubes tied. My dr. convinced me to put off a permanent decision and I got a Mirena. So totally went against everything I used to believe in, it's hormonal, it's long term, but in the end it just came down to preservation of self, preservation of species ;). I am a bad mother when I'm super stressed and I don't want to put my children through that again. I figure giving my best to the three I have is the biggest sacrifice I can give right now. That being said, I've never lost a child. My cousin just lost her baby at two days old. My heart breaks for her. I don't even know if I could make it if I lost a child. I don't know if my faith would be reparable.

[MamaJo]

I mentally toyed with idea of quiverful and probably could have been persuaded to go that way if my dh was on board but he never was. That said, when I had number three, I knew I was done. Everything about our family felt complete.

 

 

I am curious about your OP. I skimmed Open Embrace: A Protestant Couple Reconsiders Contraception years and years ago and had not heard the update on the couple who wrote it. When you said they were remarried did you mean to each other?

[KungFuPanda]

I've never been quiverful and I use an IUD, so mine is not a 'conversion story. I got pregnant easily and had uneventful pregnancies and routine births. If I wanted to be quiverful, it's possible that I could have had 3 more children (and one on the way) BEFORE my son's diagnosis. If those children were boys, they'd have a 50/50 shot at having Duchene's Muscular Dystrophy.

 

Taking care of a disabled child with DMD is so hard in so many ways you don't want to imagine. We didn't know he had it until he was 7 years old. Until that diagnosis, we were a normal family with one boy and one girl. It's devastating and I can't imagine how much harder it would be to push a wheelchair AND cope with babies and strollers. I don't know how people manage who have more than one son afflicted with this disease. A quiverful philosophy could have been devastating for my family. Our resources are stretched so thin with only two children. I just don't know how we'd survive if we had a houseful of children. The two we have need all the time and attention we can give them and it's assuming a lot to believe that you'll only ever have healthy children and nothing unusual can ever happen to your family.

[eloquacious]

That said, when I had number three, I knew I was done. Everything about our family felt complete.

 

 

I really hope I'll feel that way after #3. I so wish that we (my husband and I) will be totally in agreement. ;)

[jenniferlee]

nm

Edited August 15, 2011 by jenniferlee

[Ipsey]

I mentally toyed with idea of quiverful and probably could have been persuaded to go that way if my dh was on board but he never was. That said, when I had number three, I knew I was done. Everything about our family felt complete.

 

 

I am curious about your OP. I skimmed Open Embrace: A Protestant Couple Reconsiders Contraception years and years ago and had not heard the update on the couple who wrote it. When you said they were remarried did you mean to each other?

 

Ah, I may have been mistaken. They aren't remarried; I got that wrong. Here's the article. I read it several weeks ago, and didn't remember the details.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/09/us/09beliefs.html?_r=1

[Audrey]

You might find this blog helpful. It was started by one woman and her story of leaving the quiverfull movement, but is now a collective of several ex-quiverfull women.

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

nm

Edited August 16, 2011 by JENinOR

[Ipsey]

I've never been quiverful and I use an IUD, so mine is not a 'conversion story. I got pregnant easily and had uneventful pregnancies and routine births. If I wanted to be quiverful, it's possible that I could have had 3 more children (and one on the way) BEFORE my son's diagnosis. If those children were boys, they'd have a 50/50 shot at having Duchene's Muscular Dystrophy.

 

Taking care of a disabled child with DMD is so hard in so many ways you don't want to imagine. We didn't know he had it until he was 7 years old. Until that diagnosis, we were a normal family with one boy and one girl. It's devastating and I can't imagine how much harder it would be to push a wheelchair AND cope with babies and strollers. I don't know how people manage who have more than one son afflicted with this disease. A quiverful philosophy could have been devastating for my family. Our resources are stretched so thin with only two children. I just don't know how we'd survive if we had a houseful of children. The two we have need all the time and attention we can give them and it's assuming a lot to believe that you'll only ever have healthy children and nothing unusual can ever happen to your family.

 

Whew! Yes, I sympathize. I can't imagine. I knew a family who had 5 children, and the final 4 had a peculiar genetic disorder that made the partially blind and deaf and . . .well, they all died in their late teens due to related heart issues. They didn't resort to birth control even after the first two ill children, and only gave it up once they realized it was too difficult on their family. They felt like failures; that God wasn't going to give them more than they could handle, but they just couldn't do it any more.

 

I'm glad you haven't felt that hurt and you did what worked for your family!

[BamaTanya]

of going from dr to dr and therapist to therapist to find out what was going on with our ds (#2). And then with the youngest ds (#4). We have 2 sons on the autism spectrum. As blessed as we feel that our dss are so "high functioning," our hearts break continually. We ran up a lot of debt seeking answers and treatments and educational services. Mostly unfruitful.

 

And then our #1 was diagnosed with severe scoliosis and had to have back surgery requiring 6 weeks of recovery . . . and recently physical therapy.

 

In my mind, QF may work if your dc are healthy and have no special needs. So many health issues required tremendous juggling to cover childcare for the others while one was being evaluated or in therapy or in the hospital . . .

 

And very often, the networking that occurs within communities does not happen for the families of dc with behavioral disorders. Neighbors aren't quick to say, "Sure, let him stay with us while you take the other to the appt." or "The others can spend the night with us while you're in the hospital with your dd." People aren't sure how to deal with autistic dc and they aren't comfortable having the dc around them.

 

Since my mother's death, we -- dh and I -- are on our own. And we haven't been willing to face the risk of bringing more stress into the lives of our dc than is already present.

 

I know other parents may manage this better than we have. This is just the way it's worked for us. Being in "survival mode" for years isn't the best life we had planned. Some things have gotten easier as we have grown with our dss, but it is still challenging. Seems like we move from crisis to crisis.

[Hedgehog]

I was in two minds for a long time. DH never agreed with being QF. In the end, my decision was made by reading John 1:12-13: "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.". I understand this to indicate that where God chooses his children, children born in the natural way are the result of a human decision. There is no condemnation for this choice, and it appears to be an assumed fact which is used as a supporting argument.

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

I was in two minds for a long time. DH never agreed with being QF. In the end, my decision was made by reading John 1:12-13: "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.". I understand this to indicate that where God chooses his children, children born in the natural way are the result of a human decision. There is no condemnation for this choice, and it appears to be an assumed fact which is used as a supporting argument.

 

That is exactly the scripture that came to my mind when I began seeking the truth from God about QF teachings.

[Veritaserum]

We were QF for babies 2-5. Then we were overwhelmed and I became very grateful for birth control. I got an IUD instead of dh getting a vasectomy because I wanted time to think about being done. I'm glad I got an IUD instead because we decided (now that our youngest is 3) to have one more baby. Planned by us. ;)

[Carol in Cal.]

I come at this from a different place but I have some food for thought about some of the issues in this thread.

 

First, regarding hardship on God's people, preachers who imply that God will always make sure that His people will prosper are really ignoring a great deal of the Bible. Read Paul about his various tortures and afflictions. think of Stephen. Think of Jesus Christ Himself! It's not even remotely Scriptural to create an expectation that God always provides material benefits, health, or even safety to His people.

 

Second, one of the reasons that I have never been of the quiverfull mindset, although I am a very conservative Christian, is something I heard years ago when I was in my teens, that I have never heard a good refutation of. It is that when God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, it had a STOP in it. Guess what? The earth is basically full, and it has been for quite a while. So that command has been fulfilled, at least for the time being. Something to think about!

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

Well, I'm still a Christian, and I'm still semi-QF, BUT...

 

A few years ago I did some research on my own about exactly HOW MANY arrows fill a quiver? The QF verse was written during the Bronze Age, and written by someone in the middle east. If you research middle eastern quivers from the Bronze Age, you will discover that it held approximately FIVE or SIX arrows.

 

So, applying that historical knowledge to the verse, it seems to me that the modern interpretation of "have as many kids as you can conceive" is not what was meant by the verse. Seems to me that the more accurate interpretation would be to have about six kids.

 

Additionally, given the time that the verse was written, only MALES would have been counted as filling the quiver. So apparently six MALES would be considered a full quiver. And that fits me perfectly! :lol:

 

:lol: Though I have always wondered about the how many arrows it takes to fill a quiver idea. If you were going to battle, wouldn't you want to have a quiver that fit more arrows than 6?

[twoforjoy]

I was never anti-BC for religious reasons (liberal Episcopalian here), but I did have a brief period where I was pretty sure we were going to use NFP, because I'm kind of crunchy that way. My reasoning was that, we're getting older anyway, having 4-5 kids didn't seem unreasonable, and we'd probably not end up with more than that.

 

Then, like a month after I felt pretty confident with that decision, we got pregnant. DD was only 7 months old, we were using withdrawal and barely having sex (thinking that would keep us pretty safe until I felt more confident about tracking my cycles), and at that point we decided that perhaps I'd underestimated our fertility and we'd better go back to using BC after the baby was born. ;)

[mommaduck]

First off, QF doesn't mean the same to each family, nor to each group.

 

Secondly, there are those that are QF that believe a woman should try to have babies no matter what the circumstances. Some believe in natural spacing. Others simply believe in being open to life.

 

We became against BCP. We still are. We are also against IUD. However, we did finally reach the decision to sterilise. Our priest approved (probably more than I did). I get pregnant very easily. But I have trouble carrying to term now, have difficult pregnancies, and my pregnancies are dangerous to me. Eleven pregnancies in fourteen years, eight living children, one stillbirth, and two miscarriages...PUPPPS and three hyperemesis pregnancies. Thankfully, no cesareans. I think I've done more than my time. I love my children. I wanted a large family. I don't blame God for anything...not even my losses. I know the statistics. I know the reality...more than I did five years ago.

[BakersDozen]

I remember clearly when I decided to be QF. I was hugely pg w/#4, my other dc were 3, 2 and 1. I was actually washing my kitchen floor and laughing as my belly hit the floor, thinking about how much I loved being pg and of the dozen kids I wanted...then I froze as I realized I really wanted to be done having dc by the time I was 30 yet that would mean having 8 more dc in 3 more years. Not going to happen. So I said out loud, "OK, maybe 35...35 isn't that old." The next instant the word "menopause" was in my head and I almost yelled, "Seriously, God?! Are you kidding me??" Yet I knew in my heart that in that moment my belief was changing regarding age and the timing of babies, that God created menopause as His way of telling a woman it was time to be done with having babies.

 

That was in my fertile days. The days of no loss, of almost instant conception, of ignorance and judgment on women who chose differently than I did whether it was by using b/c or pursuing fertility treatment. I confidently (OK, smugly) told people we were letting God plan our family size even while telling myself that I would have my dozen kids just as I'd always wanted. Oh, how stupid I was.

 

After #4 was born the losses began including a devastating double loss (uterine and ectopic). I was confused and angry and broken-hearted. All around me friends were getting pg including those who didn't want to be. It was the worst time of my life.

 

To condense the next 10 years, I did get pg, I had more losses, I faced secondary infertility. I entered a world of hurting hearts unlike anything I could have imagined. I realized that getting pg/staying pg/having babies was not as simple as I'd once thought and my beliefs began to change.

 

I now believe that faith in God's plan for our family size doesn't equate to being QF. I believe one can have faith yet pursue fertility treatment or use b/c and it doesn't make them a horrible Christian/person. I believe God has provided technology, medicines and knowledge for us to use either way.

 

I consider myself "open" rather than QF because while I am not at all against having more babies (see my signature, lol) I am also not at all against using what God has allowed humans to discover/know in order to grow/prevent growth in family size.

 

This is a subject that is dear to my heart and I hope what I posted makes some sense. It's hard to take such deep thoughts and emotions and accurately convey them sometimes.

[AngelBee]

First off, QF doesn't mean the same to each family, nor to each group.

 

Secondly, there are those that are QF that believe a woman should try to have babies no matter what the circumstances. Some believe in natural spacing. Others simply believe in being open to life.

 

We became against BCP. We still are. We are also against IUD. However, we did finally reach the decision to sterilise. Our priest approved (probably more than I did). I get pregnant very easily. But I have trouble carrying to term now, have difficult pregnancies, and my pregnancies are dangerous to me. Eleven pregnancies in fourteen years, eight living children, one stillbirth, and two miscarriages...PUPPPS and three hyperemesis pregnancies. Thankfully, no cesareans. I think I've done more than my time. I love my children. I wanted a large family. I don't blame God for anything...not even my losses. I know the statistics. I know the reality...more than I did five years ago.

:iagree: with your explaination of qful differences.

:grouphug: foe u and the others sharing their stories.

[mommaduck]

... thinking about how much I loved being pg and of the dozen kids I wanted....

 

That was in my fertile days. The days of no loss, of almost instant conception, of ignorance and judgment on women who chose differently than I did whether it was by using b/c or pursuing fertility treatment. I confidently (OK, smugly) told people we were letting God plan our family size even while telling myself that I would have my dozen kids just as I'd always wanted. Oh, how stupid I was.

 

....

 

I now believe that faith in God's plan for our family size doesn't equate to being QF. I believe one can have faith yet pursue fertility treatment or use b/c and it doesn't make them a horrible Christian/person. I believe God has provided technology, medicines and knowledge for us to use either way.

 

 

 

I can relate to so much here.

[AuntieM]

Haven't read all the replies. Just jumping in to say that having a doctor look you square in the eye and say, "You could die <from this pregnancy>, and the baby, too," does a lot to make one feel like that quiver is full, even at less than 6 or 8 kids.

 

That was at my initial visit right after a positive pregnancy test with my last child. If a situation arose where a baby could be placed in my home without me giving birth, I'd be open to it. But no more babies are coming out of this body. :D

 

FWIW, I have expressed my discouragement in the past over the term "quiverful" being co-opted by the large-family movement. Who's to say my quiver isn't full at 1, 2, 3, 4? Some of those arrows take more space and are heavier than others, kwim?

[LibraryLover]

I love that NYT article. I've often wished that secular Christianity was as common and accepted as secular Judaism.

 

It would be amazing to take part in a congregation dedicated to embracing and living the best of Jesus and his acceptance. Certainly his words, deeds, thoughts are lessons enough. Imagine a united and loving relgion without the wasted time spent on the hating of gay marraige, closed wombs, tank tops etc. Screaming about sin is not the same as encouraging care & love. I've read the parables, I've read the bible ('NT', in this case) and I just do not see how the words of Jesus jibes with any the flaming pastoral condemnation of all humanity that is most often spouted by the likes of the Jim Bakers and the many other hypocrites we've seen fall so hard. (And I certainly put the Jessop, Haggard, Jim Jones etc tragedies in that category.)

 

More Jesus, Less Religion.

Edited August 15, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Ipsey]

You might find this blog helpful. It was started by one woman and her story of leaving the quiverfull movement, but is now a collective of several ex-quiverfull women.

 

Yes, I've been there quite a bit. . .but it's a little long-winded for me. ;)

[Ipsey]

Haven't read all the replies. Just jumping in to say that having a doctor look you square in the eye and say, "You could die <from this pregnancy>, and the baby, too," does a lot to make one feel like that quiver is full, even at less than 6 or 8 kids.

 

That was at my initial visit right after a positive pregnancy test with my last child. If a situation arose where a baby could be placed in my home without me giving birth, I'd be open to it. But no more babies are coming out of this body. :D

 

FWIW, I have expressed my discouragement in the past over the term "quiverful" being co-opted by the large-family movement. Who's to say my quiver isn't full at 1, 2, 3, 4? Some of those arrows take more space and are heavier than others, kwim?

 

Yes, the man who married us used to continue the metaphor by saying that warriors had to fashion and take care of each arrow on their own. It took time and effort to fashion an arrow, and that the quantity of arrows wasn't the point so much as the quality of each.

 

The argument I always heard was that only God knew what your quiver could hold, and that one should trust Him to do the best thing for your quiver.

 

Either way. . .meh :) But, even when I was a still a Christian, and was no longer QF-ish, I'd have felt exactly like you. Quivers, like snowflakes, are different :)

[AngelBee]

[quote name=AuntieM;3042094

 

FWIW' date=' I have expressed my discouragement in the past over the term "quiverful" being co-opted by the large-family movement. Who's to say my quiver isn't full at 1, 2, 3, 4? Some of those arrows take more space and are heavier than others, kwim?

 

I am anti birth control and I agree.

I also am disgusted at the level of pride in the movement. Treating medical situations is not lack of faith. It is unfortunate and divisive in the Christian community.

 

I love all my sisters. Those who love Christ and those of other faiths and belief systems. Those who leave their family size in Gods hands and those who take a more proactive approach.

 

Ones journey with God and His will for your life is a personal one. I have NO issue with discussion but their is no excuse for judgemental self rightousness masked as Christianity. It breaks my heart that some of you have been at the short end of that stick. I have too for choosing not to use BC. :(

[SeekingHim77]

I've always thought that terms like secular Christianity, secular Judiasm, secular Catholicism, etc. were oxymorons. What does that mean anyhow?

[AngelBee]

I've always thought that terms like secular Christianity, secular Judiasm, secular Catholicism, etc. were oxymorons. What does that mean anyhow?

I too dont get it.

:001_huh:

[Joanne]

I was never quiverful. However, I went from a fairly staunch feminist to at at home, "attachment minded" mom of 3 closely spaced kids. I read "The Way Home" by Mary Pride and embraced it.

 

{insert 14 years of joys, blessings, challenges, chaos, abuse}

 

Life got real, it got hard and I've returned to a more informed, experiencial, practical feminism, an open spirituality, and a radically altered view.

 

Edited to add:

 

I always kinda questioned the "each child is a blessing" mantra. Now, in my clinical work setting, I absolutely don't believe it. I believe God's biology created each child, but not that God shapes each child and "opens and closes" each womb. The God I love does not bring children into the world to experience what these kids have exeprienced.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Joanne

[Rosy]

I haven't read the thread yet...I hope to go back and read it all tonight.

 

It makes me sad when someone's faith is so tied up in QF that they can't let QF go without deserting the faith. Yours isn't the first case that I've heard of like that. I'm not intending to express pity, just sorrow that what I believe to be a misunderstanding of God's Word can have such far-reaching consequences.

 

I objected to birth control (somewhat) from the beginning, but came to see it as a moral issue when I was due to have my first. She came from a Bill Gothard background and believed that my womb was the Lord's to open and close as He wills, without interference from me (she wasn't married at the time). I was easily influenced by this friend and shortly thereafter delved into some reading on the subject and became fully convinced that God's will was for me to use no birth control.

 

I challenged my husband on the subject. I invited him to share which Scriptures supported his point of view, and I would share mine (he wisely declined my "invitation"). I conceded to his desire to use NFP, believing it wasn't God's best for us.

 

All of that changed after we had our 3rd. Suddenly, it was clear to me that we were letting biology lead, not God. It wasn't God's perfect will for us to have 3 kids in under 3 years, and it was taking a serious toll on my emotional well-being. However, I still felt that our family wasn't finished (DH was fine with that) so we stuck with NFP. Through all of this I had concerns (and still do) about chemical birth control methods, as I believe that many will cause the body to reject a fertilized egg before implantation. I got pregnant with #4 and before the delivery, DH had a vasectomy.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with a family deciding, for whatever reason, not to use birth control. But I do not believe it is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith, nor do I believe it is a blanket command that God gives all Christians. Children are a blessing from the Lord, and the man whose quiver is full is blessed, but that doesn't dictate a certain number, or even mindset, other than that children are a blessing.

[UnsinkableKristen]

Suddenly, it was clear to me that we were letting biology lead, not God.

 

 

That is a very interesting thought. I need to mull that over for awhile :001_smile:.

[MamaJo]

Suddenly, it was clear to me that we were letting biology lead, not God.

 

 

Makes me think of a girl I know got pregnant in her late teens and had been with enough boys that she had no idea who the father was. She told her pastor the she was convinced it was God's will or else she would not have gotten pregnant. Her pastor told her that it was not God's will that she had only proved that her plumbing worked.

[LucyStoner]

I've always thought that terms like secular Christianity, secular Judiasm, secular Catholicism, etc. were oxymorons. What does that mean anyhow?

 

It is used both to reference people who were raised in a strong faith community and perhaps are still connected to it (family, community, friends) but who have a more secular worldview; and also those who come from a religious community closely tied to a genetic line or community but who are not devout members of the religion and have a more secular worldview.

 

It is often used interchangeably with "cultural Catholic" or "culturally Jewish"

 

I was raised Catholic, born into a family of lifelong cradle to grave, very devout Catholics. My great-great Grandfather was lynched by the KKK for being Catholic. I went to religious classes many days per week, I went to confession, had

First Communion, was confirmed etc. I long was assumed by many to be headed for religious life as a nun. But as an adult, I no longer consider my beliefs in line with the Catholic church- I can't be a member of a church that does not allow for female priests, birth control, gay marriage or many other things that I consider very, very important. Neither can my gay brother. But culturally, he and I are very much Catholic because we have the same point of reference, mores, shared experiences etc as so many other Catholics. That does not mean we are Catholic any longer, it just means that when asked to identify our cultural background it is far, far more Catholic than anything else. I am not tossing out my mother's rosary or the Catholic family Bible, these things are a very improtant part of who I am as a person. Does that make sense?

Edited August 15, 2011 by kijipt

[SeekingHim77]

Katie-I suppose that makes sense. Cultural sounds more appropriate than secular. Secular means something like absent of religion while Catholicism, Christianity, Judaism are all religions so I still don't get the term secular being used in that sense.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

:)

[ByGrace3]

I truly have enjoyed reading this thread. :grouphug: to the many of you who have shared your stories and your losses...

 

Before I got married, I was adamant that I wanted God to plan my family. I assumed that meant just allowing God to bless us with as many children as He wanted. Dh said he was ok with that at first, but as the wedding approached he began mentioning some NFP, asking me if I would be willing to consider anything along those lines (understanding and even agreeing with my moral objections to hormonal birth control). I was so torn. I knew God had brought this man into my life, yet how could we think differently about such a great issue. I finally agreed to a counting/barrier method plan. Less than a month after we were married, I felt God strongly tell me that we were to stop planning, and trust Him. We did. I got pregnant that week. After dd1 was born, we went back to using barrier methods. When dd was about a year, I felt a stirring for another. DH was not on board. We began praying, agreed to start counting again. I got pg. When ds was about 2, I began to feel like I was ready again, but was unsure if it was me or God (I was positive the other 2 times). We prayed, but because I wasn't sure and dh wasn't "ready" we continued to prevent. I had some medical issues at the time, was scheduled for 2 surgeries, and dh and I decided after the surgery we would back off our planning and see if it truly was time. We never got that opportunity. Barrier method malfunction ;) enter #3 :tongue_smilie: God was clear that He was saying "yes," yet bc of some medical concerns, we were saying "no". He is sovereign and we are forever grateful!

I am confident that while we have not been "free" with our fertility, God has been in control every step of the way. He has planned every child and we have sought Him at every step. While I "know" this, I still struggle with the future. I trust God to tell us if and when to have another, yet I have the internal struggle of will I ever be able to say "enough"? I don't know that I could... I have had 3 c-sections and know my body will eventually have a limit. Some days our family feels complete with only 3, others I desire a houseful. I trust God will make it clear to us as He has every other time.

The heart behind QF is to allow God to plan your family. We are doing that, it just looks different. ;)

[Audrey]

Makes me think of a girl I know got pregnant in her late teens and had been with enough boys that she had no idea who the father was. She told her pastor the she was convinced it was God's will or else she would not have gotten pregnant. Her pastor told her that it was not God's will that she had only proved that her plumbing worked.

 

 

That is certainly an interesting way to look at it.

[sewingmama]

I consider myself "open" rather than QF because while I am not at all against having more babies (see my signature, lol) I am also not at all against using what God has allowed humans to discover/know in order to grow/prevent growth in family size.

 

:iagree:

 

I am not QF - but we have not used BC since we married 12 years ago and only have 3 children. I believe our "quiver is full" because if God wanted us to have more children he would have given them to us and he didn't so I guess this is what our full quiver looks like.

 

It took us 5 years of trying before our 1st was concieved - then we had 2 more in quick succession. I have had 2 miscarriages since the last one and have been feeling like we are done for a while now.