Frustrated with myself and my son

[amo_mea_filiis.]

His behavior is out of control. Beyond out of control.

 

He had to go to the Dr for a splinter (I should have googled or posted first, because the visit wasn't necessary in the end) he had in his foot for just over 2 weeks. Poor kid got it the first day of vacation.

 

The PNP decided to get it out. It took myself, and 2 nurses to hold him down on his belly. Of course he was mad, so he was screaming and cursing at me. One of the nurses had the nerve to comment about his language. I say she had nerve because ds is not known for his manners or good behavior, and here we are pinning him down and digging in his sore foot for a splinter.

 

Then today we stopped at the park and a guy said something to him about his hitting dd, and ds started cursing at HIM! He didn't even flinch when the guy got up and started walking towards him (guy is known at park, knows ds is frustrating to deal with, and wanted to prove "manly skills", which obviously didn't work.).

 

I've tried a chart for no cursing which lasted 3 days but he lost control, freaked out, and ripped the chart. I've praised for good language while ignoring the bad, reduced TV, sent him to his room, soaped him, smacked him (not a good idea for an aggressive kid), and anything else I could think of.

 

Without blanket not tolerating/discipline him/punish/there should be consequences statements, can you give me some ideas?

 

Here's an example- We're going to the store, planned and not out of the blue, and he knows going into it that IF he behaves which means walking next to me, not touching his sister, no comments about body parts, he will get 2 quarters for the machine WHEN WE'RE DONE! He knows and repeats this.

 

First he'll get mad that he can't use his quarters before shopping, but I ignore this. Next he may smack his sister, and I'll separate them (she usually doesn't even come). At this point he's already lost his quarters. He'll do a few other things.

 

We get to checkout and he realizes that I'm really not giving in, and he misbehaved, and he'll start cursing. I F****** hate you b****, or anything else he feels like saying. He's already lost the possible store reward. I can't leave and not get what we went in for. I don't mind the embarrassment, but when other people tell him how bad his language is, it eggs him on. He'll get louder and meaner, and will usually say f u to the person. It doesn't matter if the person is man or woman.

 

I DO NOT and never have given in to "shut him up", EVER! I know it would be worse in the long run. I hesitate putting him in martial arts, he can't go to military school because of his disabilities, there is no counseling around here, and my daughter has her moments but has never been anything like him so I don't believe it's all me.

 

The one thing we do not have a problem with is meds and vitamins, and I don't know what I do different. It's a simple "stand here, take it." I've tried looking at other things and I am just as firm, but it isn't the same.

[TXBeth]

:grouphug: I have no advice, but I'm so sorry. I hate that feeling of knowing your child needs discipline, but having no idea how to actually get through to them.

 

Out of curiosity, where did he learn that language in the first place?

[Denise in Florida]

:grouphug::grouphug:

I'm so sorry you are having this problem.

 

I don't have any "real experience" advice to give, but I will offer a suggestion.

 

Is there any way to make the treat/reward a graduated reward so that he doesn't lose it all with the first non-allowed action? It sounded as if he realizes he has blown the treat so there is no reason to modify his behavior anymore. Is there a way to give him 2 or 3 strikes before he is 'out' with successively lesser rewards? Or is that too complicated?

 

I hope you find a solution.

[ChristusG]

I have NO experience with this at all....so I'm just throwing random suggestions out there, so you can take it or leave it, but how would he respond if you told him that if there's any of that behavior that occurs while you are out, then he will not be leaving the house for a week. Or two weeks, whatever. He won't be going to stores, fun activities, shopping, the park, etc. You could tell him that if he can't control himself when he's out, then he cannot go out. Yes, that would make things difficult as you would have to plan outings when your DH could watch him at home, but it sounds like you may need to take drastic measures.

[Ottakee]

You mention meds. Would you care to share what he is on and why. I ask as some meds made my kids WORSE---one made my compliant son turn very arguementative, etc. On the flip side, the proper meds have made a WORLD of difference here.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Looking at your signature, it seems his issues are bigger than just discipline. I don't believe it is all you OR him, honestly.

 

I'll PM the rest....

[Love2Smile]

Oh my...no words of advice because I honestly don't know what to say, but I hope you find some professional help for him. Is he only 6??

[Love2Smile]

Looking at your signature, it seems his issues are bigger than just discipline. I don't believe it is all you OR him, honestly.

 

I'll PM the rest....

I just saw the sig. Looks like you need some real, professional help.

[akmommy]

Have you had him evaluated to be sure there isn't something more behind the behavior?

 

I would remove ALL privileges including removing everything from his room, but his clothing and bed. Toys, outings, and other fun stuff need to be earned at this point. His behavior is out of control and he needs to know that it isn't acceptable.

 

ETA: just read your sig. I have a friend who's son is CP and he has very similar behavior issues. Has he been to see a pediatric neuropshychologist? It really does sound like you and he need some help with this.

Edited August 6, 2011 by akmommy

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Out of curiosity, where did he learn that language in the first place?

 

I am not innocent by any means. The first two words he ever put together were taught by his genetic contributor. It was "Oh S***".

 

Is there any way to make the treat/reward a graduated reward so that he doesn't lose it all with the first non-allowed action? It sounded as if he realizes he has blown the treat so there is no reason to modify his behavior anymore. Is there a way to give him 2 or 3 strikes before he is 'out' with successively lesser rewards? Or is that too complicated?

 

I have tried variations of "pay scales" but it's never seemed to work. You're right that a lost reward means no reason to behave. With pay scales, he'll push it. He learns the system and does just enough to earn what he wants.

 

I have NO experience with this at all....so I'm just throwing random suggestions out there, so you can take it or leave it, but how would he respond if you told him that if there's any of that behavior that occurs while you are out, then he will not be leaving the house for a week. Or two weeks, whatever. He won't be going to stores, fun activities, shopping, the park, etc. You could tell him that if he can't control himself when he's out, then he cannot go out. Yes, that would make things difficult as you would have to plan outings when your DH could watch him at home, but it sounds like you may need to take drastic measures.

 

I'm single, so he only stays home when he's on good behavior and hangs with dd. Most of his horrid behavior occurs because he wants to go home. He wants to get out of some place. I could use home alone with dd as a reward for x days decent behavior. I'm not sure why we go to the park anymore, it's always a disaster (but I don't tell him this).

 

You mention meds. Would you care to share what he is on and why. I ask as some meds made my kids WORSE---one made my compliant son turn very arguementative, etc. On the flip side, the proper meds have made a WORLD of difference here.

 

He's only on advair, prevacid, and vitamins. He's been on or tried anti-psychotics, stimulants, and others in the past. All had negative effects.

 

Thank you all for the support!

[amo_mea_filiis.]

That would be so, utterly and completely, unacceptable around here. I don't care what others think, my son would have his face slapped for every curse word out of his mouth.

 

 

I'm ashamed to say that I have face slapped him. However, I could never do it for everything that comes out of his mouth, nor will I ever do it again. He didn't see it, but I cried, not him!

[SonshineLearner]

Poor Thing!! I'm assuming he doesn't hear cursing at home? If he does, apologies and a turn from that could help. If, as I'm assuming, this isn't the case.... then figuring out if it's medical would be the start. If it's not medical, then I would try some serious discipline tactics. But, I would first do the whole... figuring out what the underlying problem could be. So sorry you're dealing with this. Parenting is never easy!!

[AK_Mom4]

:grouphug:

No, you aren't the first (or the worst!) to have a special kiddo with rage problems who swears like a sailor.

:grouphug:

 

My short-term fix would be to stop taking him places where it causes problems. That might mean he only gets to go to the park at 8am or 9pm when no one else is there. And probably *never* to a store when I needed to shop for things. And it's really tough because it confines you to home too.

 

No - I don't think this is something you can punish out of him. And he may have things going on that makes even rewards too difficult. There are some OT and behavioral therapy stuff that might help diminish the rage level - especially with SPD. I'm not an expert and don't know your kiddo to say for sure, but you certainly have all my sympathy on this one!

 

:grouphug:

[Mandy in TN]

Before I did any more consequence/ punish/ reward, I would have him checked for Tourette Syndrome.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[amo_mea_filiis.]

We had "professional" help in home for about 6 months. They said to put him in time out, were nearly antagonistic in any approach, and did nothing.

 

There is no one else around here, no other help.

 

I'm still holding out hope that fixing his sleep will be the magic wand, but that chances are slim.

 

He's been evaluated way too many times, but this last group really made sense of him. He has CP but doesn't. There isn't evidence of it on the MRI, but his motor, language, vision, and sleep problems fit CP the best.

 

During my obsessive research I know that it is easier to use emotional words (like curses) when frustrated, and that emotional words are tied to many parts of the brain, but I don't how to use that info to help him.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

:grouphug: I know it must be exhausting.

 

What is his diet like? I swear that cutting processed food and sugar from my kids diets has done wonders for their behavior. I'm not saying it will fix all your issues with your son, but it might help. Also, food additives, especially colors have been known to cause problems.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know you've tried professional help but you need to go and find someone else- someone who can help you much more than any of us can.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Tourettes was ruled out. He has 2 motor tics, or stims depending on which type of Dr you'd ask, one of which is tied to being sleepy and possibly his vision issues. His language does not come across as a tic. It's a frustrated or mad F U as opposed to a string of fufufufufu. At least this is what the new neuro said.

 

He CAN control himself, but has no tolerance for frustration and that's what sets him off.

[Mandy in TN]

Tourettes was ruled out. He has 2 motor tics, or stims depending on which type of Dr you'd ask, one of which is tied to being sleepy and possibly his vision issues. His language does not come across as a tic. It's a frustrated or mad F U as opposed to a string of fufufufufu. At least this is what the new neuro said.

 

He CAN control himself, but has no tolerance for frustration and that's what sets him off.

I may would seek another opinion. Dytonia is associated with Tourettes.

Mandy

[spaceman]

:grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I'd suggest looking into Jane Nelson's Positive Discipline series. The a-z book is particularly practical. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307345572/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0761514708&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=11M0SQMPNFKWYEBZGEZX

 

Here is her "Mistaken Goals" chart: http://www.creducation.org/resources/Mistaken_Goals_Chart.doc

 

Might he be falling under her category of "revenge-seeking"? You can see her suggestions, though very abridged.

[jelbe5]

Before I did any more consequence/ punish/ reward, I would have him checked for Tourette Syndrome.

 

:iagree:

 

This is exactly what I was thinking! I would encourage you to look into this possibility.

 

:grouphug:

 

I am so sorry . . . this must be so hard . . .

 

Another thought . . . have seizures been ruled out? I am talking about subclinical seizures which are barely noticeable to others . . . they would interfere with sleep, etc. My son with autism was found to have subclinical seizures as a very young child. Once he was on Depakote he began to sleep properly and his language began to develop . . . he had several ambulatory EEG's done when he was very young (between 2 1/2 and 5). I agree you need to keep seeking a professional or professionals who can help you.

Edited August 6, 2011 by jelbe5

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I know you've tried professional help but you need to go and find someone else- someone who can help you much more than any of us can.

 

There really isn't anyone. NHS in our town has a joke of a psychologist and I will never deal with him again. Friendship house has no openings, and he just lost his autism label which is what they deal with (Neuro would give back ASD label if we found useful services). MHMR sends you to NHS. NHS in 2 other neighboring towns doesn't currently have a psychologist and are not accepting anyone new. His ped has no ideas, except of course to discipline him :confused:, but no ideas on HOW!

 

I've been fighting systems for 6 years (started at 8 months old) with him and I'm sick of it. I pulled him from school (using a cyber for now) so we can spend a year dealing with behavior and therapies.

[Mandy in TN]

He CAN control himself, but has no tolerance for frustration and that's what sets him off.

Another thought. You said he CAN control himself and yet your description made him sound out of control.

 

Can he truly control himself? If so, I may would start with explaining that it is fine to be angry. Anger is a legitimate emotion. It is not alright to vomit that emotion all over others. Explain that he needs to go to his safe spot and get himself under control. Whenever he is ready, he can come rejoin the family. When at home, attempt to catch it before he looses it and walk him to his room or whatever place you/he chose as his safe spot. Do not do this out of the blue when he is out of control. Explain all of this while he is fine. Do not try to discuss anything with him while he is raging.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Wabi Sabi]

I know you said you don't have any other professionals around you, but in your situation I would find another child psych and probably a behaviorist even if it meant having to drive quite a ways. At this point do you have much to lose?

 

I'm sorry, I know it's tough. I have a younger sibling with similar outbursts and major behavioral issues (he is on the PPD-NOS spectrum.) Sadly, over the years my mother has refused to get help and his behavior is escalating with age. It isn't easy for her at all.

[itsheresomewhere]

There really isn't anyone. NHS in our town has a joke of a psychologist and I will never deal with him again. Friendship house has no openings, and he just lost his autism label which is what they deal with (Neuro would give back ASD label if we found useful services). MHMR sends you to NHS. NHS in 2 other neighboring towns doesn't currently have a psychologist and are not accepting anyone new. His ped has no ideas, except of course to discipline him :confused:, but no ideas on HOW!

 

I've been fighting systems for 6 years (started at 8 months old) with him and I'm sick of it. I pulled him from school (using a cyber for now) so we can spend a year dealing with behavior and therapies.

 

 

 

I am not sure how far in northeastern pa you are but if you are willing to drive about 2ish hours from Scranton, I can give you a dr who can help or get you to the right person. This guy only advocates meds when necessary. I have the same issues with my ds who is autistic. Also, was he like this before advair or did he have a dose change in it and increase behaviors? Advair made a family member a very nasty individual- worst mood swings I have ever seen.

[swellmomma]

:grouphug: No ideas to help you off the top of my head. Though I had an interesting/frustrating day here dealing with ds that proved a couple triggers for him.

 

Today all 3 big kids were playing with matchbox cars. There is a bunch my ds7 has bought with his own money so when he didn't want to share those ones I was okay with that, there was another 200 to pick from. DS12 wanted one of the ones belonging to DS7. WHen he couldn't have it he threw a major fit. Kicking shelves, throwing toys and finally punching DS7 in the knee of his broken leg. I had video taped the whole ordeal though I shut it off as soon as he hurt DS, and hauled him off to his room so I could tend to ds7.

 

Once he had calmed down I showed him the video tape. He was so ashamed of what he saw. This was not one of his meltdowns that he can not control this was a temper tantrum because he didn't get his way. We watched it together 4 times talking about what he looked like to someone else, etc. His behaviour has been pretty good since that today, he made amends with ds7, and has lost screen time for the weekend.

 

As for triggers, 2 days ago I let him rent a video game due to his excellent behaviour as of late. It was a Bourne Conspiracy game. After only playing it for 2 days for a couple hours total, he was acting very aggressively, getting frustrated much faster and over all just not the sweet boy he had been for the last 2 weeks. He definitely responds negatively to what he sees on the screen moreso with video games than with movies etc. The other thing different today was he had a package of flavoured instant oatmeal rather than making regular oatmeal. I had had him only eating regular oatmeal (with syrup on it, so it wasn't just the sugar), cream of wheat, or toast for breakfast for the last 2 weeks. Today he had the instant flavoured stuff with much more junk in it. He only had 1 package, but I noticed he was much angrier today within 30 minutes of eating it than he was before he ate it or any other day for the last 2 weeks.

 

So once his grounding from screen time is over, he will be back to very limited video game use and the types will be cut back (no more violent ones at all), and no more instant oatmeal packages for him.

 

If you can figure out any kind of triggers that would help but is so hard to do. For Ds I am still figuring it out, but slowly am building the list. None of those things cause the actual outburst, but they seem to reduce his patience level and ability to deal with the things that frustrate him kwim.

 

Maybe the video taping will work with him, maybe not. At this point I do not know if it will actually work long term with ds, but for him at least seeing himself from the outside helped him see what he was really doing kwim. Maybe something similiar would help your ds, maybe not.

 

It is so hard to figure out what will help our kids when they have forgotten to read the same parenting books we have.

[swellmomma]

There really isn't anyone. NHS in our town has a joke of a psychologist and I will never deal with him again. Friendship house has no openings, and he just lost his autism label which is what they deal with (Neuro would give back ASD label if we found useful services). MHMR sends you to NHS. NHS in 2 other neighboring towns doesn't currently have a psychologist and are not accepting anyone new. His ped has no ideas, except of course to discipline him :confused:, but no ideas on HOW!

 

I've been fighting systems for 6 years (started at 8 months old) with him and I'm sick of it. I pulled him from school (using a cyber for now) so we can spend a year dealing with behavior and therapies.

 

:grouphug: BTDT still doing it, in my area and DS is hitting 13.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Another thought. You said he CAN control himself and yet your description made him sound out of control.

 

Can he truly control himself? If so, I may would start with explaining that it is fine to be angry. Anger is a legitimate emotion. It is not alright to vomit that emotion all over others. Explain that he needs to go to his safe spot and get himself under control. Whenever he is ready, he can come rejoin the family. When at home, attempt to catch it before he looses it and walk him to his room or whatever place you/he chose as his safe spot. Do not do this out of the blue when he is out of control. Explain all of this while he is fine. Do not try to discuss anything with him while he is raging.

 

HTH-

Mandy

 

I think he can.

 

The crazy cursing started while I was working with a psychologist on his extreme aggressive behaviors. We targeted attacks on dd. He went from 10 per day to 0 per day. While this was reducing, he started cursing. Psychologist said, and I agreed at the time, that it's great he's using words instead of hitting. He said we'd address the cursing with his speech therapist once the aggressive behavior has been fixed for a few weeks. Well a few weeks went by and school was over, we moved, and no one here knew what to do.

 

He went 2 full days with no cursing. On the 3rd day between 12-1pm (behavior chart was timed) he slipped and was told he wouldn't not get the sticker for that hour, but to keep up the great work and he'll earn the next hour's sticker. He flipped out and ripped the chart and the following 2 I printed to try and motivate him again with.

[ktgrok]

I think you need to break down the rewards into smaller chunks. Instead of two quarters at the end, how about 5 cents each aisle, and he can trade in for how ever many quarters he has earned at the end? That way he can regroup.

 

Also, can you go to the store, for instance, when you don't need groceries, and try walking, say, 1 aisle up and back, with the cart, just like normal, and then leave and reward him if he was good. Then after he rides say great, let's try TWO aisles!!! Then go back in, do two aisles, and if he was good come out and ride again. Then say, great, you did so well lets do 4 aisles! Then maybe go home. Leave him wanting more. Again, it is breaking it down into smaller, more doable chunks, so he doesn't get frustrated and give up.

 

Finally, look into something called Tag Teaching. This sounds awful, but it is basically clicker training like with a dog, but with a person. You "tag" the good behavior with a sound or a word, and they can keep track and get rewards. So as you are walking you every so often "tag" him if he is behaving. In the beginning you have to do it a LOT, but then you can decrease the frequency. They have lanyards with beads the kids can use to keep track of the tags, to earn rewards. I know it is used in classrooms, and in gymnastics.

 

hugs. it isn't you. it's him.

[Anna Marie]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: to you!

 

My nephew (almost 18), Has CP it was caused by brain damage. (he's about 4th/5th grade level mentally) He also has ADHD

 

He was exactly like this: swore, threw major tantrums, etc.

 

It wasn't until he was about 10 that they changed his medicine; It changed his whole personality! Now he's so nice,friendly, etc.

 

I hope you can solve the problem! :grouphug:

Edited August 6, 2011 by Anna Marie

[eternalknot]

:grouphug: This sounds so completely overwhelming.

 

I know it's too late now, but in the future for someone like the nurse -that is, a professional- I think you'd be fully in line to quietly suggest: "Please. That's not helpful, and I am/we are doing my/our best given the situation."

 

I'd be okay with the guy at the park continuing to talk to my son. I am okay with this with my own kids, now, but I know not everyone is a fan of the village thing. I think only with consistency and in time will this man make any affect on your son, and that there will likely be a period of posturing in which your son genuinely doesn't care enough about this guy or his own behavior to change it (in front of him).

 

I don't think reward systems work for all kids and personality behaviors. I mean both the explicit, tangible systems (charts) but also the understood kind (forced praise). I wonder if your son, deep down, knows he is out of control and is just as frightened by it as you are. I wonder if he doesn't think he can successfully complete a chart - so when he feels the urge to do something 'bad' he runs with it, is disappointed in himself, knows he has disappointed you, and then goes after the chart to literally destroy the tangible evidence of his intangible (mis)actions. I wonder if he is confused by your well-meaning attempts to ignore his outright (perhaps testing in nature) poor behaviors and focusing only on his good actions; especially if he thinks he has "fooled" you into thinking he's good, when he really "knows" he is bad. Naturally that would fuel more feelings of x, y, and z that would contribute to his acting out.

 

And when I suggest he thinks he is bad, I want you to know that I don't think parenting is always -or even usually- the root of those feelings. I sincerely think some kids -people, even- just internalize things this way, and would regardless of parenting. Or any relationship for that matter.

 

I think the best idea I can offer is to focus on correcting behaviors - keep things very black and white. Don't focus on feelings, or what he "is" or "isn't", or anything gray. Maybe this will (in time) (in his mind) separate what he thinks about himself from what misbehaviors he needs to work on changing. I might move away from a disciplinary/punishment mindset, and more into a consequences/training point of view; it's a subtle distinction, but one that can make or break you -the adult- in the heat of the moment. It's easier, I think, to keep one's cool when we're thinking that we're training and teaching an individual than it is to stay in control when we feel like someone is being bad and we're needing to dole out a punishment.

 

What does that look like? Let's look at your example in the store.

 

Here's an example- We're going to the store, planned and not out of the blue, and he knows going into it that IF he behaves which means walking next to me, not touching his sister, no comments about body parts, he will get 2 quarters for the machine WHEN WE'RE DONE! He knows and repeats this.

 

As mentioned above, I'd skip the reward approach with this child. I think he feels he can't successfully do what he's being asked to, for whatever reason, which is why he tries to get his quarters at the start of the trip. Rather than tie the quarters to his behavior, just decide whether or not you'll give quarters this particular trip. Some times he'll be bad, but you'll have decided ahead of time to do the quarters - do the quarters; some times he'll be good, but you'll have decided ahead of time to not do the quarters - don't do the quarters. Don't make the treat contingent upon anything. Be consistent in this: "Sometimes we get quarters, sometimes we don't" and work on that. It's black/white, it's not gray (subjective to anyone's behavior). He'll have tantrums sometimes, but you handle those however you do and keep repeating that sometimes we get quarters, sometimes we don't. He may say, "But I was good!" as a justification for earning quarters during a trip you've already decided not to hand them out -- agree that yes he was, and that sometimes we get quarters, sometimes we don't. This trip is a don't.

 

First he'll get mad that he can't use his quarters before shopping, but I ignore this. Next he may smack his sister, and I'll separate them (she usually doesn't even come). At this point he's already lost his quarters. He'll do a few other things.

 

I can't say I blame him :blush: and I'd probably do the same. If I'm already out my quarters, what other incentive is there to continue behaving? I think that's why reward systems don't work well with all personality types - child OR adult. Some of us will figure, well - all's lost, may as well go out with a bang. You know?

 

We get to checkout and he realizes that I'm really not giving in, and he misbehaved, and he'll start cursing. I F****** hate you b****, or anything else he feels like saying. He's already lost the possible store reward. I can't leave and not get what we went in for. I don't mind the embarrassment, but when other people tell him how bad his language is, it eggs him on. He'll get louder and meaner, and will usually say f u to the person. It doesn't matter if the person is man or woman.

 

I think this is one of those awful phases kids sometimes go through when they realize you're not giving in. The whole storm before the rainbow thing, where it gets worse before it gets better. It sounds like you're good about keeping your calm, and it's good that you don't let the embarassment change how you handle him OR how you finish your trip. Because you can do that, I think it'll be easier for you to do the whole black/white thing here, too, rather than worry about the gray. So focus on behaviors (the black/white) rather than the feelings (the gray). How?

 

"You may f*n hate me, you may think I'm a B!tch, but you may not call me either, in public or in private." And you repeat it as many times as you need to, calmly as you can. One trick I learned from working around a lot of drunks is to whisper when you want someone loud to listen. My kid went through a phase like this and I'd touch his shoulder (often he'd roughly shoo me away, and that was fine because it was more of a signal than anything else so once the initial touch was made I was good). As I touched his shoulder, I'd say the sentence. He'd react physically and verbally, and I'd do it again. I'd repeat it as often as he did (he comes by his stubborness honestly ;)) it was a challenge to maintain my cool as he escalated his own behavior, but the pay-off has been worth it. It's been a few years, and now even just a touch to his shoulder signals him to calm/control himself.

 

I did have well-meaning strangers step in. They did so more when they thought I was not doing anything by ignoring him (what they didn't realize was that by ignoring him in public I was keeping him from escalating, and that I'd deal with him in the privacy of the car/home). I empathize in that regard. I actually don't mind people stepping in, but when they're not helping I feel free to say so. Sometimes I gently suggest they not encourage him by engaging him (which they seem to understand), but I never say "I have it under control" because they always argue that ::sigh::. If a stranger did engage your son, and he did start cursing at them, I'd do the same thing with the shoulder touch and sentence: "You may think she's a B!tch, but you may not say so."

 

My kid like this was actually a pretty intuitive kid; meaning, I didn't have to really explain to him why his behavior was unacceptable. Once the moment had passed and he was 'normal' he understood what he had done wrong, and why I reacted the way I did. Our struggle was controlling his personal demons - he thought he was a hostage to his feelings, and those feelings told him he was a bad person. (His dad kept deploying or leaving for training, and he internalized that as abandonment and unworthiness.)

 

I DO NOT and never have given in to "shut him up", EVER! I know it would be worse in the long run. I hesitate putting him in martial arts, he can't go to military school because of his disabilities, there is no counseling around here, and my daughter has her moments but has never been anything like him so I don't believe it's all me.

 

My kids do martial arts. There are some misfits in the class, and I'm amazed at how far some of them have come in terms of self-control, respect for others, and pride in themselves and their accomplishments. I think the coach makes a difference, and can be especially helpful if he understands part of your motivation for enrolling your son.

 

It's reassuring to see that you're so normal about this. I get so sad when I see moms beating themselves up, when the truth is ... some kids are just like this ... independent of parenting. You sound like an amazing mother and woman, and I hope you find relief soon with your son.

 

:grouphug:

[5LittleMonkeys]

First...:grouphug:.

 

Have you asked him why he curses like he does? Is it just the way he is best able to express his frustration or does he curse like that to get at you; to punish you?

 

You mentioned that he can control his behavior. Under what circumstances is he able to do this?

 

You mentioned that you are single; who does he stay with when you are working? Are there any other adult caretakers in his life? How long is he away from you each day and what are his typical activities during that time?

 

Sorry for all of the questions...they will effect the advice I give.

[Mandy in TN]

:grouphug: This sounds so completely overwhelming.

 

I know it's too late now, but in the future for someone like the nurse -that is, a professional- I think you'd be fully in line to quietly suggest: "Please. That's not helpful, and I am/we are doing my/our best given the situation."

 

I'd be okay with the guy at the park continuing to talk to my son. I am okay with this with my own kids, now, but I know not everyone is a fan of the village thing. I think only with consistency and in time will this man make any affect on your son, and that there will likely be a period of posturing in which your son genuinely doesn't care enough about this guy or his own behavior to change it (in front of him).

 

I don't think reward systems work for all kids and personality behaviors. I mean both the explicit, tangible systems (charts) but also the understood kind (forced praise). I wonder if your son, deep down, knows he is out of control and is just as frightened by it as you are. I wonder if he doesn't think he can successfully complete a chart - so when he feels the urge to do something 'bad' he runs with it, is disappointed in himself, knows he has disappointed you, and then goes after the chart to literally destroy the tangible evidence of his intangible (mis)actions. I wonder if he is confused by your well-meaning attempts to ignore his outright (perhaps testing in nature) poor behaviors and focusing only on his good actions; especially if he thinks he has "fooled" you into thinking he's good, when he really "knows" he is bad. Naturally that would fuel more feelings of x, y, and z that would contribute to his acting out.

 

And when I suggest he thinks he is bad, I want you to know that I don't think parenting is always -or even usually- the root of those feelings. I sincerely think some kids -people, even- just internalize things this way, and would regardless of parenting. Or any relationship for that matter.

 

I think the best idea I can offer is to focus on correcting behaviors - keep things very black and white. Don't focus on feelings, or what he "is" or "isn't", or anything gray. Maybe this will (in time) (in his mind) separate what he thinks about himself from what misbehaviors he needs to work on changing. I might move away from a disciplinary/punishment mindset, and more into a consequences/training point of view; it's a subtle distinction, but one that can make or break you -the adult- in the heat of the moment. It's easier, I think, to keep one's cool when we're thinking that we're training and teaching an individual than it is to stay in control when we feel like someone is being bad and we're needing to dole out a punishment.

 

What does that look like? Let's look at your example in the store.

 

 

 

As mentioned above, I'd skip the reward approach with this child. I think he feels he can't successfully do what he's being asked to, for whatever reason, which is why he tries to get his quarters at the start of the trip. Rather than tie the quarters to his behavior, just decide whether or not you'll give quarters this particular trip. Some times he'll be bad, but you'll have decided ahead of time to do the quarters - do the quarters; some times he'll be good, but you'll have decided ahead of time to not do the quarters - don't do the quarters. Don't make the treat contingent upon anything. Be consistent in this: "Sometimes we get quarters, sometimes we don't" and work on that. It's black/white, it's not gray (subjective to anyone's behavior). He'll have tantrums sometimes, but you handle those however you do and keep repeating that sometimes we get quarters, sometimes we don't. He may say, "But I was good!" as a justification for earning quarters during a trip you've already decided not to hand them out -- agree that yes he was, and that sometimes we get quarters, sometimes we don't. This trip is a don't.

 

 

 

I can't say I blame him :blush: and I'd probably do the same. If I'm already out my quarters, what other incentive is there to continue behaving? I think that's why reward systems don't work well with all personality types - child OR adult. Some of us will figure, well - all's lost, may as well go out with a bang. You know?

 

 

 

I think this is one of those awful phases kids sometimes go through when they realize you're not giving in. The whole storm before the rainbow thing, where it gets worse before it gets better. It sounds like you're good about keeping your calm, and it's good that you don't let the embarassment change how you handle him OR how you finish your trip. Because you can do that, I think it'll be easier for you to do the whole black/white thing here, too, rather than worry about the gray. So focus on behaviors (the black/white) rather than the feelings (the gray). How?

 

"You may f*n hate me, you may think I'm a B!tch, but you may not call me either, in public or in private." And you repeat it as many times as you need to, calmly as you can. One trick I learned from working around a lot of drunks is to whisper when you want someone loud to listen. My kid went through a phase like this and I'd touch his shoulder (often he'd roughly shoo me away, and that was fine because it was more of a signal than anything else so once the initial touch was made I was good). As I touched his shoulder, I'd say the sentence. He'd react physically and verbally, and I'd do it again. I'd repeat it as often as he did (he comes by his stubborness honestly ;)) it was a challenge to maintain my cool as he escalated his own behavior, but the pay-off has been worth it. It's been a few years, and now even just a touch to his shoulder signals him to calm/control himself.

 

I did have well-meaning strangers step in. They did so more when they thought I was not doing anything by ignoring him (what they didn't realize was that by ignoring him in public I was keeping him from escalating, and that I'd deal with him in the privacy of the car/home). I empathize in that regard. I actually don't mind people stepping in, but when they're not helping I feel free to say so. Sometimes I gently suggest they not encourage him by engaging him (which they seem to understand), but I never say "I have it under control" because they always argue that ::sigh::. If a stranger did engage your son, and he did start cursing at them, I'd do the same thing with the shoulder touch and sentence: "You may think she's a B!tch, but you may not say so."

 

My kid like this was actually a pretty intuitive kid; meaning, I didn't have to really explain to him why his behavior was unacceptable. Once the moment had passed and he was 'normal' he understood what he had done wrong, and why I reacted the way I did. Our struggle was controlling his personal demons - he thought he was a hostage to his feelings, and those feelings told him he was a bad person. (His dad kept deploying or leaving for training, and he internalized that as abandonment and unworthiness.)

 

 

 

My kids do martial arts. There are some misfits in the class, and I'm amazed at how far some of them have come in terms of self-control, respect for others, and pride in themselves and their accomplishments. I think the coach makes a difference, and can be especially helpful if he understands part of your motivation for enrolling your son.

 

It's reassuring to see that you're so normal about this. I get so sad when I see moms beating themselves up, when the truth is ... some kids are just like this ... independent of parenting. You sound like an amazing mother and woman, and I hope you find relief soon with your son.

 

:grouphug:

:iagree:I so agree with this, all of this, but didn't want to say it first. DITCH the rewards: focus on correcting behaviors.

[celticmom]

My dd6 can act very bratty at times and she gets put on restriction. She loses all screen priveleges and all sweets for a week at a time. If she misbehaves further during that week she gets another week and so on. The first few times she ended up on restriction for a month or more then it finally penetrated her stubborn little mind that there would be serious consequences for misbehavior and her behavior improved dramatically. She loses sweets and screen time because these things are very important to her. In her case it takes relatively long term consequences to get her her attention, otherwise she just out waits whatever punishment she is given and continues to misbehave.

 

What does he value most that is nonessential?

[SonshineLearner]

Just a thought, but I've been reading about the "GAPS" diet and wondered if it's something that might be interesting for you to check out.

[sewingmama]

I have NO experience with this at all....so I'm just throwing random suggestions out there, so you can take it or leave it, but how would he respond if you told him that if there's any of that behavior that occurs while you are out, then he will not be leaving the house for a week. Or two weeks, whatever. He won't be going to stores, fun activities, shopping, the park, etc. You could tell him that if he can't control himself when he's out, then he cannot go out. Yes, that would make things difficult as you would have to plan outings when your DH could watch him at home, but it sounds like you may need to take drastic measures.

 

:iagree:

 

It doesn't seem like loosing quarters is a big enough consequence for something as serious as that amount of swearing. He needs to lose something he really cares about. His behaviour sounds very attention seeking.

 

I don't have much to offer except :grouphug:. My DD has SPD and has behavioural issues that no discipline methods I've tried has had an effect on. I know how frustrating it is to know your child is off the rails but feel clueless as to how to fix it - I don't have that problem with my younger boys - they respond well to appropriate discipline - my DD never has.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Everything has been helpful! Thank you!

 

First...:grouphug:.

 

Have you asked him why he curses like he does? Is it just the way he is best able to express his frustration or does he curse like that to get at you; to punish you? He is pretty language delayed. He can answer yes/no, but not much more. He can talk and have conversations, but doesn't answer questions well. It's hard to explain. If he gives more, it's another person's fault "well, that kid looked at me so I hAD to curse" or "you put me in my room so I had to curse" etc.

 

You mentioned that he can control his behavior. Under what circumstances is he able to do this? He will not curse around babies or kids generally smaller, unless in a really bad mood. He was caught cursing once in school last year, and the teacher camly said he isn't allowed to, and he never did again, at least where adults could hear him.

 

You mentioned that you are single; who does he stay with when you are working? Are there any other adult caretakers in his life? How long is he away from you each day and what are his typical activities during that time? I don't work. He's on disability, so that's pretty much our income. He is with me almost all day, except for the few times I'll run to the store alone. School just ended in June, and this is the first summer he has not had related services, so we're getting used to being together all the time. But, his behavior is not new. It was worse after school or on weekends, almost like he had to get it all out before going back to school. The only school did was give me a 6 hour break away from him, but he'd be worse so the break wasn't worth it at all.

 

Sorry for all of the questions...they will effect the advice I give.

[sewingmama]

Most of his horrid behavior occurs because he wants to go home. He wants to get out of some place.

 

This is likely his SPD speaking. My DD doesn't not swear but when she gets overwhelmed and wants to get out of a place and go home she throws huge ear slitting roll on the floor tantrums.

[Jan in SC]

Please keep searching for professional help. The people on this board are wonderful and have lots of great advice, yet in my humble opinion, this is too serious for advice from strangers. This son of yours will be bigger than you one day soon and you need to have this under control.

[roxanne23]

.

Edited January 4, 2023 by roxanne23

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I'll address specific posts in the morning.

 

I am still looking for in person help. His father is 6'4", I'm 5'1", so I'm terrified of the future.

 

His diet isn't too terrible, but thinking about it, he has not been drinking more than 1-2 pediasures per day so he may not be getting enough calories. This has been on ongoing battle since he was a toddler. He has a feeding evaluation in October. I will look into any diets mentioned, but I have to be careful to make sure he eats enough.

 

He started advair in the spring of '10, so this isn't new. It's helped some behavior because his asthma flaring will cause a behavior increase.

 

We've tried replacement words, but they only work when he's not frustrated.

 

Question- Should dd consistently defend herself, or do I jump in? I try to get involved before he hits, but he'll still get her like while in the car, or if I'm cooking, in the bathroom, etc.

 

There are 2 local martial arts schools. One has only a female instructor and while I'd prefer him to have males in his life for male things, I can afford for all 3 of us to attend. The other place I can only afford ds, maybe dd, but there are many instructors, a bunch male. I think *I* need the discipline of martial arts! But I'm not sure if I need it more than he should have a male instructor.

 

I will revisit different meds next summer after we've had a year home, finished vision therapy, addressed or at least diagnosed his sleep disorders, and tried another behavior "specialist".

 

If his OT continues to talk about what we will do as opposed to doing, we'll be looking for another. Speech is out until school starts due to distance.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Another question- I can never decide about allowance. If I give it, I'd have something meaningful to take away. But if I give it based on work, I don't want to take it away. If I give, I could make a swear jar. If he gets allowance, do I allow him, on a restricted diet to buy candy? I don't want to, but is that fair?

[SailorMom]

:grouphug:

 

Take this for what it is worth - I'm no expert - but I can read people kinda well at times..... This is what he possibly percieves/thinks, but is way too young to explain....

 

He has a lot on his plate for being so young. I'm sure he has some inner anger to work through - and if he has to be miserable about it - everyone else is going to be as well.

 

He really doesn't understand the issues he has - no matter how well or how many times they have been explained. He's too young....

 

You are his mom, and in some ways he still thinks you rule the world. So - why aren't you fixing it all for him??? He is by far the angriest with you because you are the one he loves and relies on the most.

 

The language gets your attention, makes you see how angry and upset he is, and he gets a reaction from others as well. Possibly a bigger reaction than any of the physical ways he is acting out. He knows it hurts you, he knows it embarasses you, and he is trying to use it. Not necesarrily to always get his way - maybe to see what you do? Maybe to see if you get it? Get what? I don't know - only he does and he's too young to explain. I suppose he wants you to get that he is angry in a deep way he can't control.

 

I do think discipline is a big part ( I know you've tried it all - I think you have done an amazing job so far). Perhaps weeding the garden, running up and down stairs, doing push-ups (anything physical - wear the little bugger out).

 

Aside from that - I think you need to somehow connect with that part of him that is mad. Give him a safe way to get angry (hitting his pillow, throwing stuffed animals against the wall) - some kids - when they can't express themselves - need to get it out physically. It is ok to be angry - but we all have to learn to be angry in the right way.

 

Explain that you understand that he's mad and frustrated, and that you would be too. It's a bummer, and life has given him some tough stuff to deal with. But you know that he is smart enough and good enough to conquer it all, and you'll help him as much as you can.

 

Read him a few stories - about Helen Keller, Disney (he was dyslexic), Einstein (total failure in school - got kicked out, etc), and others like that. Show him that once he gets past the anger, and gets over life not being fair, that he can succede.

 

I know this seems out there - but I just get the feeling that might be what;s going on.

 

Hang in there.

[Kirch]

Another question- I can never decide about allowance. If I give it, I'd have something meaningful to take away. But if I give it based on work, I don't want to take it away. If I give, I could make a swear jar. If he gets allowance, do I allow him, on a restricted diet to buy candy? I don't want to, but is that fair?

 

It's fair--just because it's his money doesn't make it okay for him to buy things that are off limits for whatever reason (especially if it's a medical reason). Just like you wouldn't let him buy anything else that's off limits, like a new pet that you can't have/can't care for/don't want or something potentially dangerous.

 

:grouphug: What a tough situation. I hope you are able to find some answers.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Kirch

[SailorMom]

Another question- I can never decide about allowance. If I give it, I'd have something meaningful to take away. But if I give it based on work, I don't want to take it away. If I give, I could make a swear jar. If he gets allowance, do I allow him, on a restricted diet to buy candy? I don't want to, but is that fair?

 

 

I'm thinking this is too complicated right now.

I don't know that he can control his anger enough yet to be successful.

Perhaps pay him by job (offer options like washing the car, walking the dog, etc - with $ amounts tied to them). But I wouldn't take away any money earned yet.

Also - you may want to have a stash of stuff he can buy at home - that you have pre-screened. Or have him save up for a game he wants, etc. Rather than bringing the money to the store.

[eternalknot]

Another question- I can never decide about allowance. If I give it, I'd have something meaningful to take away. But if I give it based on work, I don't want to take it away. If I give, I could make a swear jar. If he gets allowance, do I allow him, on a restricted diet to buy candy? I don't want to, but is that fair?

 

I think I'd tackle one thing at a time, but then again I'm a wuss LOL.

 

That said, I don't think you should give an allowance with the ideation that you'll have something to take away. IMO, and consistent with my other post in this thread, you should decide to give it .. or to not give it.

 

If you were to make it contingent upon work, I'd imagine that you'll run into the same problems you're having with a rewards chart or praise. It's a new spin on the same ol' shoot IYKWIM. And since that way of doing things isn't working right now, maybe it's a good time to try something different.

 

I'm not a fan of controlling what one's allowance is spent on, because ... what's the point, then? Why not just randomly pay for things as they come up, that way you get to approve what you want bought? The one exception would be foods (including candy) that were restricted for health reasons. But I'd be prepared to fight that battle on a very regular basis. Knowing that going in, I'd be hesitant to introduce any new battles until I had my existing battles under control.

 

I don't really do an allowance, and I never had one as a kid. My kids do earn their own money, and I don't restrict what they buy; I do sometimes restrict when they can have what they buy, but rarely.

 

"Fair" has come up on this board a fair amount this week. I don't do fair, don't care if it's fair, don't worry if it's fair. I do what I do, and sometimes it's fair ... sometimes it's not ... that's life in the big city (or at least aroud here LOL). If fair is important to you, then I think it's 'fair' would not be to make allowance contingent upon good behavior and aside from any medical restrictions I don't think it'd be fair to control what he uses allowance on - especially if he's had to work hard to earn it. That feels a bit like a set-up (I'm sure unintentionally) because I suspect he'll have a hard time earning his allowance ... but if he works hard and does earn it, now he can't even spend it how he likes? What's the incentive there, you know?

[Rebookie]

That would be so, utterly and completely, unacceptable around here. I don't care what others think, my son would have his face slapped for every curse word out of his mouth.

 

 

I would agree with you on this if he were older (6yo have no idea WHAT the words they say even mean) and didn't other issues.

[Rebookie]

If I knew my son couldn't handle himself in public like a big kid.. I wouldn't take him. That's it.

 

If you have to take him... Give him his quarters first... If he loses something he's never had, he has no concept of what he's missing. Give him the quarters to hold until the end of the trip. When he starts to act up ask him does he still have his money. Share with him you would really hate for him to lose them for acting ugly.

 

That's all I got. =D Good luck with your fella.. I know he's got it in him to do the right thing!

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Please know that I'm saying this gently so as not to offend, but I'm concerned that you said that he hits your daughter but is left alone with her? :grouphug: