4 year old that doesn't want to learn...

[parias1126]

My 4-yr old DS still does not know his ABC's, can't not identify his letters, does not know his letter sounds, does not recognize his numbers 1-10. Now, let me just say I haven't done anything differently with him then my other DC. All my other children loved music at a very young age. DS4 just started enjoying music and singing along about 4 months ago (he was 4 in Jan). The only thing he knows very well is his colors which he taught to himself at a pretty young age right about the same time he learned how to talk (he was a late talker and in speech therapy from the age of 2-4). I have bought him letters for the tub that stick to the sides and try to work with him with identifying them and their sounds. His response to most everything if you ask him a question like, "What letter is this?" is "I don't know." If I ask him to draw them in the air like an airplane his response would be, "I don't know how to do that." "I don't know how to do that" is a very common response to most everything if what he is trying to do requires skill or thought.

 

So....I am REALLY worried!

 

 

Let me also say I am not forcing him to learn anything and don't generally believe in any formal curriculum before K, but my other DC just learned most everything on their own. They would beg to play on Starfall, would beg to watch the Leap Frog Letter DVDs, and many other things. DS4 is just not interested. I wasn't worried before because I assumed he would start to pick something up by playing with letters in the tub, listening to ABCs in the car while we travel, watching the Leap Frog Letter Factory, etc.

 

As much as I dont want to put any of my children in the public school, I have enrolled him in Pre-K and am waiting to see if he gets accepted.

[2_girls_mommy]

My 2nd dd was like that. She did not get the letters and numbers on her own. She didn't get them when I explained them and put up posters. She cried when I tried to sit with her for a few minutes and get her to count with me while pointing to the poster and counting things, etc. My other dd loved all of that stuff! I was so confused :confused:

 

She did however like when I read to her. So I read to her a lot. We did a little bit of letter of the week when she was 4. I read her a lot of the stories that were on the lists. I taught her the sign language letters to give her a motion to go with the sound. Being a kinesthetic type of girl, she needed that movement. Sge had the R&S ABC workbooks, but she only did a page or two a week for most of the year. I made the flashcards and we did them at the table during eating time. I made her do them for just a few minutes at a time.

 

I just wanted to say that now, at the end of 1st grade, she is reading Frog and Toad books and Amelia Bedelia. I really didn't think that was going to happen. Schoolwork has always been tough with her. She still resists some, and I have to move slower than I would like. But she is doing it. I think I just needed to go more slowly with her. She wasn't ready to go at it as much or as quickly as some. I kept thinking, this program is designed for 6 yr olds. She should be able to do it. But now, going into 2nd, she is doing it. She seems to be right on track for 2nd grade.

 

Good luck to you!

[EKS]

You're going to get a lot of people telling you that he is just 4 and to chill out.

 

However, I think you're right to be concerned. I have two boys, one dyslexic and one not, and the difference between them, even at age 4, was striking. My older (dyslexic) son seemed to be in a haze of confusion at that age. He couldn't recognize letters, numbers, songs, anything really. The younger one was reading on a 2nd grade level and doing K-1 math.

 

I highly recommend the book Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz as it has lists of symptoms for even very young children. I also recommend the book The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide.

 

ETA: I don't think an evaluation is in order just yet. Just keep an eye on him.

Edited June 15, 2011 by EKS

[HiddenJewel]

Can he count audibly and just can't recognize the written numbers? What if he just isn't ready? If he is a late learner, he will pick it up very quickly when he does start.

Edited June 15, 2011 by HiddenJewel

[joannqn]

Definitely get him evaluated, if for no reason than your own peace of mind. If there's a concern, you can get the help he needs. If there's no concern, you'll know to relax and continue looking for ways to motivate him.

 

My second child was in public preschool from three days after his 3rd birthday until the beginning of summer before kindergarten. He continued to get speech therapy through the school for an additional year while we homeschooled. It was a great experience for him. In fact, I was hoping my 4 year old qualified and get the same teacher.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

My 6 1/2 year old ds was like that. Infact- he still didn't know all his letters and sounds on his 6th birthday. He could not count to 10. I PANICKED. Around Feb something clicked and now he is at a 1st grade reading level and will not start 1st grade until August. He can count to 100 (with minimal help) and count by 10's (again with minimal help) My advice is do NOT push him. I pushed my son and he pushed back, VERY hard. I really regret doing that to him. Now he LOVES school! Let your son come to you. It WILL happen and he will get "caught up" when he is ready!

[regentrude]

My kids had no interest in letters and numbers at age 4.

Having moved to the US from another country where there is no push for early academics (and formal schooling does not begin until age 6), my DD did not know her ABCs until she started public K at age 5 1/2, as one of few kids in her class. Yet 5 months later she was reading thick chapter books and tested reading at high school level in 3rd grade.

So, it is perfectly possible that he simply is not ready.

[boscopup]

He sounds a lot like my DS2. He was a late talker and in speech therapy this past year. He's done everything academic much later than his big brother did, and it did slightly worry me for a while, but he's coming around now. In the last 6 months, things have "turned on" in his brain, bit by bit, as his speech has also gotten significantly better. He didn't know any of his letters when he turned 4. Now he can sound out CVC words and determine what the word is (we're still sounding out *every* word, but he can "read" a whole sentence, sounding it all out, then going back and reading each word without sounding it out... slow, but steady and HUGE progress). He couldn't count to 10 last summer and had no clue what a number was. Now he is adding and subtracting small numbers and memorizing the smaller math facts quite quickly. He also didn't pick up colors until I specifically taught them via R&S ABC workbooks (which he LOVED, btw).

 

Now this child *does* enjoy me teaching him things, but it has to be stuff he's wanting to learn at that moment, or I will get those same answers "I don't know that." Drives me nuts. :lol:

 

My oldest learned a lot on his own at an early age, but if I tried to teach him anything at age 4, he resisted BIG time. So that's another thing to consider... He just may not be ready for formal learning yet.

 

I'm not saying that your son is normal or not normal. I'm just saying it *could* be normal. Read, read, read. Pop in Leap Frog, just in case he'll get interested. But don't let him know you're wanting him to do this to learn something. ;)

[nmoira]

My almost 7yo's reading only gelled in the last few months and she is still iffy on some letter names. When we started some formal instruction at 5.5, she didn't know all her letter sounds and couldn't identify digits or count much past 10 (she still confuses the names "eleven" and "twelve," though has no problem with "11" or "12"). She was just never interested and in retrospect probably wasn't ready at a younger age, and in a few months has gone from being "behind" grade level wrt reading to being a bit ahead. It really did turn out OK, and I'm glad I didn't push.

[Deniseibase]

It's entirely possible nothing is wrong and he is get getting a little later start, which is no biggie.

 

BUT it sounds like you are worried, that is doesn't 'feel' normal to you. And frankly, if a mom has a strong feeling something is wrong with her child, that's always worth following up on. YOU are the greatest expert on YOUR child, and if it feels wrong to you, then get him checked out.

[EmilyGF]

I'll vote for evaluation. Since you have a literate household, I would be more worried than with an oldest child who might be exposed to less. (I have three kids - each one has picked up things earlier than the one before just because of increased exposure.)

 

I had my son in speech until he aged out of the preschool speech. The evaluation with painless and the therapist we had was great. We'd have had him in speech earlier if he hadn't been our first and I had realized how behind he was! We'd also have put him in physical therapy at 3 months instead of excusing one of his actions that was actually a sign of an injury that needed 9 months of PT after 12 months instead of a month at 3 months.

 

Emily

[truebluexf]

I might have him evaluated for peace of mind. However, I also might just go for a different type of 'curriculum' for him, and go waldorf (maybe Oak Meadow?) The approach might allow him to learn these things in a very different and gentle way, such that he doesn't even realize it and doesn't fight it.

[Crimson Wife]

Can he count audibly and just can't recognize the written numbers? What if he just isn't ready? If he is a late learner, he will pick it up very quickly when he does start.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

My 2nd was a late talker and I was worried about CAPD, especially when he wasn't rhyming at 4 1/2. Then all of a sudden, one day something clicked for him and he could rhyme up a storm. Three weeks later, he figured out how to decode. That was last July. Since then, he's gone from S-L-O-W-L-Y sounding out CVC words to fluently reading chapter books like the Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle series now.

[Rosie_0801]

You could try putting him on fish oil tablets. My kiddie's speech has increased quite a bit since we did that. Of course it helps that she wants to learn to speak now :glare:

 

What does your boy do? Mine couldn't speak, but she sure could climb, and she can do 50 piece jigsaw puzzles. Could it be that his interests are just oriented elsewhere?

 

Rosie

[Irishmommy]

I would get him checked out as it sounds like you are really concerned and I would read, read, read, to him every chance I got. My son had very little interest in "schooly" activities, but loved being read to. He still doesn't love school, but he's a very studious person on his own and he reads like there is no tomorrow. So I guess my son is "normal", whatever that means...

 

Hugs to you, though, as you go through this scary time. I know what it is like to feel like something may not be on track for his age. Knowledge is power and early intervention in the form of therapy is the best (as you already know with speech).

[justamouse]

My kids had no interest in letters and numbers at age 4.

Having moved to the US from another country where there is no push for early academics (and formal schooling does not begin until age 6), my DD did not know her ABCs until she started public K at age 5 1/2, as one of few kids in her class. Yet 5 months later she was reading thick chapter books and tested reading at high school level in 3rd grade.

So, it is perfectly possible that he simply is not ready.

:iagree::iagree:

[parias1126]

Can he count audibly and just can't recognize the written numbers? What if he just isn't ready? If he is a late learner, he will pick it up very quickly when he does start.

 

He can barely count to 10, but can do it with help. I have to make a huge deal and get all goofy and silly and play like it's a game just to get him to count for me or with me and could only get him to do it just this past week. I was astonished when he got to 7 actually because I didn't think he knew that much. He needed help with 8, 9, and 10.

[parias1126]

My 6 1/2 year old ds was like that. Infact- he still didn't know all his letters and sounds on his 6th birthday. He could not count to 10. I PANICKED. Around Feb something clicked and now he is at a 1st grade reading level and will not start 1st grade until August. He can count to 100 (with minimal help) and count by 10's (again with minimal help) My advice is do NOT push him. I pushed my son and he pushed back, VERY hard. I really regret doing that to him. Now he LOVES school! Let your son come to you. It WILL happen and he will get "caught up" when he is ready!

 

Thank you for leading me to think there is hope and he just isn't ready. I would never push him. Like I said, I really believe in learning through play and everyday life at this age. My problem is that he isn't learning this way and doesn't want to whereas my other 3 children were the complete opposite even the two that are very slow learners.

[katiejean]

I agree that in time it will probably come and that you shouldn't worry yourself about it just yet. My ds who is 8 now was very slow. I took him for an evaluation at the beginning of second grade and his spelling was atrocious. I was mortified. But inwas assured by the evaluator that he was an emergent reader/speller and not to worry. (he has a speech issue that slowed him down some) About midway through the year, he suddenly took off like a shot. He now reads Magic Treehouse and is doing splendid. He needs some help with spelling and writing some but the progress he's made assures me he will be fine soon. His older brother was the same way-fluent reading didn't click till 2nd grade.

 

My dd in 1st now, also is more behind than I would prefer. She's reading but some days she isn't "connected" or

something, like last night she looked at a "w" and called it a "u"! I nearly fell over. One week into summer break and we already are forgetting our letters? :/ Anyway, these are kids #3 and #4 and #1 and #2 have no problems so I'm not panicking just yet. We will get there! I don't like putting pressure on them when I know they are smart as whips and just prefer dramatic play more than the three "R's".

 

If it makes you feel better to have him evaluated then by all means do so but I'd be hesitant that it may make you feel worse as the standards set forth for what a child "should know" changes greatly and tends to be more and more steep each year.

 

I have a degree in Early Childhood Education and a teaching credential; so I know quite well the "proper"

milestones and accomplishments suggested for students, I tend to buck the system, however, I believe each child is different and learns at his own pace. He may be a sponge in another area-such as building or art. Let him flourish where he is successful. The rest will come in time. 

[parias1126]

You could try putting him on fish oil tablets. My kiddie's speech has increased quite a bit since we did that. Of course it helps that she wants to learn to speak now :glare:

 

What does your boy do? Mine couldn't speak, but she sure could climb, and she can do 50 piece jigsaw puzzles. Could it be that his interests are just oriented elsewhere?

 

Rosie

 

He would never sit down to do a puzzle. His favorite thing to do is actually play with the iPad. He has one app where he wil trace the letters with his finger, but does not recognize the letter later. He can trace on the iPad with his finger but can not write anything with a pencil. He made me a picture just yesterday and was very excited about it, but it was a huge circular shape of scribble with the pencil. I told him how amazing it was and his face lit up. He does like being read to so we do that in the evenings. His 8 yr old sister reads to him and it's also great for her because she is a struggling reader so it servers two purposes which is wonderful.

 

He has no interest in TV (which isn't necessarily a bad thing since I don't allow much tv in my home). He has an extremely short attention span with anything he does. He gets frustrated VERY quickly if he can't do something and immediatey starts crying and screaming that he needs help.

 

He can't do things like hopping on one foot and isn't very coordinated which worried me for awhile, but he has gotten better. He couldn't even climb much until recently. I have been worried about him for a long time for more then just the topics at hand. He was "released" from speech therapy but I really don't think he should had been. I thin that was the public schools way of getting me to apply for their More at Four program. I was told if I had any other concerns then they would be able to identify them more clearly if he was there everyday Mon-Fri rather then 1 hour a week.

[HiddenJewel]

He can barely count to 10, but can do it with help. I have to make a huge deal and get all goofy and silly and play like it's a game just to get him to count for me or with me and could only get him to do it just this past week. I was astonished when he got to 7 actually because I didn't think he knew that much. He needed help with 8, 9, and 10.

 

Sounds like my ds4 and he doesn't do letters either. And he has 3 older siblings.

[calandalsmom]

Complete evaluation is warranted. Sounds to me like he may qualify for quite a lot of services- OT, speech and more.

 

 

I am also very comfortable with learning thru play but this sounds pretty unusual.

 

 

I wouldn't allow them to rail road me into prek but I'd sure take OT.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think there are benefits to using school sometimes (though I wish school wasn't full day for 3 and 4 year olds).

 

Though we hope to be able to adopt our 3, 4, and 5yr olds and hope that if we do they will be homeschooled later, I am VERY glad they are all three going to school next year (well, I'm a little less sure about the 5yr old who I think could get more academically out of homeschooling).

 

Anyway, my kiddos have some extra needs and it sounds like your little guy may also as your description makes him seem behind my 4 yr old who *is* developmentally delayed and gets special services (through the school and privately). So I think it's worth checking into a school services evaluation and possibly preK (or HeadStart which has it's own pros and cons in comparison).

 

HOWEVER, I want to tell you that it can work out just fine even without jumping that direction. As I read your description, it sounded a lot like my son. He was definitely different about learning. He generally did things quite late, but in HUGE spurts. We did do speech along the way, but he finally just caught up. It was HARD though. I just don't think school would have helped in his case (btw, he did try school a short time which was a nightmare).

 

It'll work out, one way or another. Just do whatever will give you peace now and you can tweak it along the way.

[parias1126]

I just wanted to say that I am so excited! Today, while he was in the bath, I dumped all the letters/numbers I bought on Amazon into the tub. He picked up the "o" and said, "Mommy, this is an o"! Then he picked up the "3" and said, "Mommy, this is a 3"!

 

I seriously thought I was going to fall over! How does that even work out? He has never made any progress in months and months and I post this to WTM cause I am so worried and the following day he surprises me like this??? :D:D:D:001_smile::001_smile:

[nmoira]

Woo hoo! :)

 

I seriously thought I was going to fall over! How does that even work out? He has never made any progress in months and months and I post this to WTM cause I am so worried and the following day he surprises me like this??? :D:D:D:001_smile::001_smile:

My youngest didn't speak more than two words in combination (except at times of extreme pique) until the moment I'd handed over the cheque at the speech therapist's for an evaluation.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I want to also suggest you don't "test" him or ask him to perform at this point. Think about how scary that can be when you are just figuring things out. Until he's confident with what he's learned (like in the bath), he may not want to try. Obviously, that may need to change in time, but....

 

Also, a lot of kids do really well on some aspects but not others. For example, my 4yr old draws letters in the air for various sounds (he knows the first sound for each letter). He cannot say the H says /h/ though. So your son may just be in an inbetween area like that which allows him to know some information, but either cannot yet express it or express it consistently or can usually only express it "differently."

 

As it becomes second nature, it'll just come out, just like the situation in the tub :)

 

And again, yes, he'll have to get over that to some degree as he becomes older, further in school, etc; but I think it's just fine for a preschooler.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Get him tested if it will make you feel better. Money well spent. That said, none of mine, NONE, could do any of that before 5 or for two of my sons, 7. My oldest 3 are straight A honors students so while concern is understandable Don't .freak. out.

[boscopup]

I just wanted to say that I am so excited! Today, while he was in the bath, I dumped all the letters/numbers I bought on Amazon into the tub. He picked up the "o" and said, "Mommy, this is an o"! Then he picked up the "3" and said, "Mommy, this is a 3"!

 

I seriously thought I was going to fall over! How does that even work out? He has never made any progress in months and months and I post this to WTM cause I am so worried and the following day he surprises me like this??? :D:D:D:001_smile::001_smile:

 

:lol: It always happens that way, doesn't it?!?!?

 

My middle son, who is much like yours (speech delays and it seemed he was a bit "behind" in most cognitive areas) will go a long time knowing nothing about a subject, then suddenly something turns on in his brain and he knows a bunch and even more than the average child his age might do. It's very strange! My oldest did not progress in this manner... except for reading. He knew his letters and sounds and how to chunk a word for a good year, but he could NOT blend and figure out the word. Then one day he picked up a grade level 1.5 book and read 30 pages of it, with me going :blink:. Apparently, though he couldn't express that he knew things, he was picking them up. My middle son does that with everything, and it drives me nuts, but he's doing well. I just have to be patient sometimes! :D

[Irishmommy]

The same thing would happen with me and my oldest. I'd post about him and he would clear up whatever issue I raised!

 

So happy for you, sounds like he's on his own time table!!!!:grouphug::D

[QuirkyKapers]

I started reading and was going to recommend evaluation if it would make you feel better. But it sounds like you had a break through. :)

Keep putting letters and numbers in the bath. Eventually, you can ask him to find the letter c, than the letter a then the letter t and ask if he knows that word :)

[Sahamamama]

(Haven't read the other responses)

 

In the situation you described, I would be concerned, too. I would have his hearing tested, as well as his vision.

 

Keep reading to him, let him listen to audiobooks, and try to have one-on-one conversations with him -- not "teaching times" so much as genuine conversations.

 

He may be a later bloomer... he may just need time to play and grow up a bit.

 

But, yes, I would be concerned, too, if he were my boy, and I would at least have his hearing and vision tested. Good luck!

[parias1126]

(Haven't read the other responses)

 

In the situation you described, I would be concerned, too. I would have his hearing tested, as well as his vision.

 

Keep reading to him, let him listen to audiobooks, and try to have one-on-one conversations with him -- not "teaching times" so much as genuine conversations.

 

He may be a later bloomer... he may just need time to play and grow up a bit.

 

But, yes, I would be concerned, too, if he were my boy, and I would at least have his hearing and vision tested. Good luck!

He has had his hearing and vision tested. The county does that prior to deciding if he needs speech therapy or not. It has been a while though so maybe we are due.

[LizzyBee]

I haven't read the other posts, so I might be repeating some things that have already been said. Speech and language delays are often the first sign of dyslexia or other language based learning disabilities.

 

My favorite website about dyslexia is http://www.dys-add.com. It is a wealth of information.

 

My favorite book about LDs is The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide. They are medical doctors who homeschooled their own children for several years because of LDs. Their book is a nice mix of medical/neuroscience and practical information. I also really liked The Everything Parents Guide to Children with Dyslexia by Abigail Marshall, too.

 

A friend of mine took 2 years to teach her son the alphabet and the sounds each letter makes. Two years. But at age 14, he began volunteering at the state history museum as a tour guide. He is intelligent and articulate, and you would never guess how much he struggled if he or his mom didn't share his story. Don't be discouraged. You may have a long journey ahead of you, but you'll get there. :grouphug:

[lakotajm]

Your son just sounds like he needs more space and time, to me. My husband, according to his mother, was much like this, then taught himself to read at 4 1/2 with his sister's textbooks and encyclopedias. But a few months before that, when she would ask him what is this or how do you say or spell that, he would say "I no know." But he probably did, only without the confidence he needed within himself to let it out. He is one who needs to get it all lined out perfectly in his head before letting it fly.

 

Your son actually sounds like a perfect candidate for Montessori. Do they have a school near you? They are very child-led and work well for kids with various learning styles. You could also try to read up on it at home and make some of the materials yourself. I did that with my own for preschool. Check out the montessorimakers yahoo group.

 

4 is still a bit young, maybe time will be all he needs.

 

Great to hear of the bathtub breakthrough! Keep up the great work!

 

Lakota

[lighthouseacademy]

I don't have time to read replies but these are my thoughts-

Is it possible that he doesn't like the question? My son HATED direct questions for YEARS. I think he was in 3rd grade (oh wait, that was a year ago!) before I could ask him a direct question and expect an answer. If I had asked him what letter is that, he wouldn't answer or would say I don't know because he wanted it to be perfect and fears mistakes (he was a late talker because he didn't want to make a mistake). So instead, I would say, please hand me the _________. Or, I need a ___________. I have had the opposite experience of some ladies with multiple kids. Some of my younger ones have actually taken longer to do some things. For example, my 3rd child was my latest talker and my latest figuring out letter names etc but as she is almost 5 all of a sudden she is obsessed with learning to read and letter identification. If you are concerned, then investigate, otherwise I would just watch and wait and read LOTS of books to him.

(oh, and my oldest learned numbers by looking at page numbers).

[8filltheheart]

I personally wouldn't worry at 4. My dd will be 6 in July. She simply wasn't ready for K at the beginning of this past school yr. She couldn't recall the name of a letter we had just been singing about, gluing stuff on, playing with, etc 5 mins after we stopped. By Jan, she was telling the names of a lot of letters w/o my even doing anything.

 

She was still drawing picture immaturely (a circle with arms and legs directly out of the head), she learned her colors late (I actually had to teach her her colors. I have never had to do that before), etc. She simply matured much later than my other kids. But, now at almost 6 she seems almost on par with a couple of them at the same age. Some kids really do just mature later.

 

Now if you were having this conversation about a 6-7 yr old, my response would probably be different.

[janainaz]

I don't remember exactly, but my second ds (now 6.5) did not learn his letters and numbers until he was closer to 5 years old. I spent a lot of time with him going over and over them in different ways and he would say the same thing, "I don't know" when asked to identify letters and numbers.

 

I tried the Leap Frog Letter Factory and made him watch it once a day. He knew his letters and sounds in a matter of months. He really started to progress from there and now he's an excellent reader. He's at least on a 3rd grade reading level (thank you OPGTTR).

 

I think if he seems pretty normal in all the other ways I would not worry too much. Some kids are just not ready at 4 years old! They walk and talk at different times and they just aren't cut from the same cloth.

 

However, I think a mom does have a sixth sense when there might be something a little more concerning - so trust your own instinct, but don't immediately jump to conclusions that he's got an issue - he's 4!