annandatje Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 While intriguing and sometimes inspiring stories of religious conversions and de-conversions abound, seldom do we hear of cradle naturalists who either were never given to magical thinking or abandoned it by their own personal age of reason. Are there people here who, regardless of genuine efforts at religious training, were unable to absorb spiritual beliefs that were based upon supernatural paradigms because of their own lucid rejection of the supernatural? People who do not grapple with the troubling issues discussed in de-conversion stories because they do not find the basic premises of religions credible? People who were born unable to believe something without a perceived sound basis for doing so even if millions or billions believed it and even if the individual wished it were true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 i gave birth to one of those. she is third of four dds, and from the time she was 2, it was clear that her brain worked like dhs, and not like mine or the other 3 dds. it is an amazing thing to watch and learn and live with. it is as if she were born with critical thinking skills already fully intact, rather than learned, and she applies them to everything. most adults become uncomfortable discussing politics with her, for example, because she sees clearly what many attempt to make murky. fascinating! and yes, she applies it to religious and magical beliefs, too. she willingly suspends disbelief to enjoy startrek, and fantasy literature, but she's clear that is what she is doing. hth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I might have been, but I was taught to be a good girl ;) so that's not how the story played out. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I think many people are naturally as you describe, until they are taught otherwise. Certainly some people have more innate capacity to maintain religious beliefs than other people. I know I'm deficient - when I went to a religious school I sincerely tried my hardest to be religious but it was like trying to make myself believe in the tooth fairy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Me. I tried so hard for years to "fit in". Heck - my MiL is a United Methodist pastor! I finally figured out that no amount of study, research, soul searching, etc, was going to change my non-belief. Now - I do believe in God - but a God who created the rules of the universe as it is, and one that does not intervene or break his own rules with miracles and prophets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mejane Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Are there people here who, regardless of genuine efforts at religious training, were unable to absorb spiritual beliefs that were based upon supernatural paradigms because of their own lucid rejection of the supernatural? Well, I wasn't systematically trained as a young child, but I tried to train myself as a teen and as a young adult. I wanted to believe, I tried to believe, I read, I prayed, I went to church... nothing. I used to cry in church because I couldn't feel what the others were feeling. It was all just too illogical. My daughter is exactly the same. She says she just can't buy into the supernatural element. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) While intriguing and sometimes inspiring stories of religious conversions and de-conversions abound, seldom do we hear of cradle naturalists who either were never given to magical thinking or abandoned it by their own personal age of reason. Are there people here who, regardless of genuine efforts at religious training, were unable to absorb spiritual beliefs that were based upon supernatural paradigms because of their own lucid rejection of the supernatural? People who do not grapple with the troubling issues discussed in de-conversion stories because they do not find the basic premises of religions credible? People who were born unable to believe something without a perceived sound basis for doing so even if millions or billions believed it and even if the individual wished it were true? Yes. Very long story short. I was raised Methodist, but I never bought the bull. I played along, but it felt like lying. So, when I was out on my own, I quit playing. My son doesn't buy it either, even though his grandfather's wife keeps trying to convert him. Edited January 7, 2011 by Audrey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I remembered Mum trying to teach us to pray. She gave up after two or three nights. The whole down on the knees thing felt so silly and I didn't get why gabbling a formulaic prayer was a good thing. If you didn't actually have anything to say, why bother? I do remember praying of my own accord, but I think I was believing in God in the way you believe whatever it is your parents say until something makes you stop to think about it. And, as I said, I was taught to do as I was told. Mum was never heavy handed about it, but it was obvious we were supposed to believe in God, so being a good girl, that's what I did. It's definitely not something I'd have gone looking for of my own accord, if I hadn't been taught to believe it and I think it was gone by the end of year 8. There was enough authority figures in my life already, I didn't need that one too :lol: How oppressive! I have never benefited from the theory that I'm not ok. I'm fine with needing improvement, but the unworthy sinner stuff sure planted seeds of rebellion. And the churchy contact I had made me wonder why everyone didn't lighten up a bit. Of course now I know the answer to that one :) I did a short course on world religions when I was about 19 and was surprised to find there was a name for what I was. I've evolved a bit since then, but it's been more of an expansion than a change. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annandatje Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 In my family, religious training was available to those who were interested. Fortunately neither parent pushed or pressured us into any sort of religious observations or rituals, but certain overbearing people in our lives did repeatedly attempt conversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~cindy~ Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Yes, me:001_smile: I remember being taken to Sunday School as a small child and thinking that I do not believe this and I never will. If you cannot convince me at 4 you will not convince me at 43:lol: I cannot even fathom faith in a god. It is an alien concept to me :001_huh: My mind will not think that way so I have never struggled with my lack of faith in a god :) Edited January 7, 2011 by ~cindy~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Well, I wasn't systematically trained as a young child, but I tried to train myself as a teen and as a young adult. I wanted to believe, I tried to believe, I read, I prayed, I went to church... nothing. I used to cry in church because I couldn't feel what the others were feeling. It was all just too illogical. My daughter is exactly the same. She says she just can't buy into the supernatural element. This. Just couldn't 'go there', intellectually. Hopefully, THIS thread will stick around~! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelissaCC Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Yes. I was raised Catholic but was agnostic by the time I hit double digits. My dd's pray and believe in God. My ds is only 6 but he is more like me, unable to believe, even in things like Santa, let alone a deity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I was raised Anglican, but I told my parents at 8 (maybe 9) that I could no longer attend church because it would be hypocritical. I just don't get spirituality at all, didn't from a very young age. The one thing it would be impossible to emphasize too strongly is that I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything: I've more than once wished I were of a different sexual orientation, but never once wished I could be religious or even mildly spiritual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelissaCC Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I sometimes wish I could believe but I just can't. Don't even have that mustard seed to work with! What confirmed my non-belief was studying modern history in high school. I was unable to believe that a benevolent God would allow a Jewish baby to be kicked as a football by guards in a concentration camp, for example. Anyway...probably best not to get into it too much here :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I seem to remember praying to a tree when I was very small. That was my last spiritual experience. I've never believed or felt I wanted to believe anything beyond the tangible/scientific. Calvin is similar. Hobbes could go either way, although he is currently influenced by his brother. My parents were not believers but they didn't preach atheism to us: my eldest brother chose to go to Sunday school for a while. We all went to Christian schools - all UK schools that were not attached to some other faith included Christian worship. It had no affect on me whatsoever. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Me- in that I never took on the belief systems of Christianity because they just didnt make sense, despite being exposed to them strongly at school. I recognised from a young age that religions involved belief, and that they all involved different beliefs, and that while they were all trying to find the truth, truth and belief are pretty much mutually exclusive, because truth is truth no matter what you believe, wheras a belief will stand in for truth. However i do not equate non belief in religions with there being no such thing as what tends to be called the "supernatural". I see the supernatural as a certina way of perceiving, and current scientific based thinking, as well as religious beliefs, tend to block seeing magically- which is really seeing clearly. I am talking from the perspective of someone who has experimented with hallucinagenic substances used in traditional cultures in her younger years, and I do not think our generally narrow range of perception is by any means all there is....and some people naturally perceive things others cant, such as energies, auras, dead people etc. But to me that is a world apart from religious beliefs, which I never really took on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CarolineUK Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Now - I do believe in God - but a God who created the rules of the universe as it is, and one that does not intervene or break his own rules with miracles and prophets. I really like that. I may become a convert. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I really like that. I may become a convert. Thank you. Google Deism :) The only thing I have issue with on some of the websites is the acidic tone towards other people's choice of religion. I respect others' choices, and believe we all have to find our own path to God. You might also find the history of Platonism interesting. Rosie - I didn't know my belief system had a name until I was 31!!! I thought I was just an odd duck. I was actually very relieved to see that I wasn't alone and that my beliefs actually had a long history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I went to 8am services and Sunday School (after service, not in lieu of) nearly every Sunday of my life to age 16 or so. I even TAUGHT Sunday School when there weren't enough volunteers. I don't recall truly believing any of it past the age of believing the Santa/Tooth Fairy stories. I really did try in my early teen years though. It just didn't take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freethinkermama Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Oooh, I envy you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I guess you're describing me, although I did go to catechism through Confirmation. By the time I was 12 and supposed to be confirmed, I was a pretty thorough atheist and a bit mouthy about it. My parents both separately (and possibly without knowing the other did this) told me that of course Christianity wasn't true, but that it didn't matter, going through the rites of passage was culturally important. I was very relieved to know that they didn't actually expect me to believe in religion, just to follow the outer forms and found that easy to do. Dh has a very similar point of view which he must have learned from his parents, although I can't imagine them stating it as baldly as my parents did. We did actually discuss whether we were going to follow this model with our kids or just skip the rituals. Dh felt very strongly about following tradition, I was more for opting out but didn't really mind much. Ds2 hasn't expressed any doubts, but dd is clearly tending atheist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I think many people are naturally as you describe, until they are taught otherwise. Certainly some people have more innate capacity to maintain religious beliefs than other people. I know I'm deficient - when I went to a religious school I sincerely tried my hardest to be religious but it was like trying to make myself believe in the tooth fairy. I have seen it both ways in my kids. Two were born, it seems glorying in the Lord, full of faith, worshipping Jesus from their infant seats. I have two others who are not at all interested in what you call magic and I call faith. Three were sort of blank slates in that field...not particularly "holy" or "cynical" but open to all sorts of discussion, which is the type of person I am. I do believe it is in the nature of a child to be born fully human with a personality, traits, and a distinct "person-print". I think this is why I am so drawn to Charlotte Mason's philosophies. I will never try to change the nature of my child, but gently try to guide that child onto a path that will best suit him, and cause him to have a full and joyous life. Faithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 My son. He went along for the ride at first, but after my deconversion he breathed a sigh of relief and confessed that he didn't believe. He was 8-1/2 at time. People who do not grapple with the troubling issues discussed in de-conversion stories because they do not find the basic premises of religions credible? Though I did once believe, I don't grapple with anything. When I gave up Christianity, I tried on a few other belief systems -- mainly Paganism and New Age. However, after letting go of one type of magical thinking, I couldn't really latch on to any type of magical thinking. I guess that means I don't find the basic premise of religion credible. I don't "wish I could believe". I've never looked back, and have no regrets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorMama Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I was raised Catholic, and went to Catholic school from kindergarten to high school graduation. I had determined well before double-digits that something just wasn't making sense to me, but I tried desperately to find answers. When you're Catholic and go to Catholic school and your entire extended family and all your parents' friends are Catholic, it's extremely distressing to go through a childhood crisis of faith. Nobody would or could answer my questions or understand why I was so troubled by the whole concept. Nobody seemed to think about it much at all. I thought I was crazy because I was the only one having these issues (or so it seemed). By high school I'd made peace with it...and in that much larger school, finally found that I wasn't the only one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I seem to remember praying to a tree when I was very small. That was my last spiritual experience. Funny you should mention that. I've felt energy from a tree before. The same sort of energy you (well me) would feel from a pet dog if you were upset. Considering, a pagan/Western Taoist isn't a surprising place to have ended up. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punchie Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I was raised by a secular humanist / deist mother. I am now nominally Episcopalian as I like rituals, churchy-feeling churches/services, and the sense of community. DH is lapsed Catholic, but wants our kids raised in a church for the foundations in gives. Episcopalian is a good middle-ground for us. I don't know if I would consider myself a Christian b/c there are a lot of elements that I do not necessarily agree with. Though by that token, if the gnostics had won the battle in the early years, it might be a different story. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Funny you should mention that. I've felt energy from a tree before. My god died. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Hi. I'm the OP on that "other" thread ;) and I'm just listening in. :seeya: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freethinkermama Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Funny you should mention that. I've felt energy from a tree before. The same sort of energy you (well me) would feel from a pet dog if you were upset. Considering, a pagan/Western Taoist isn't a surprising place to have ended up. Rosie I've been reading some pagan works, but know nothing about Taoism (apart fro having read The Tao of Pooh years ago). What would you suggest to someone interested in learning about this path? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I'm not Rosie, and not a committed Taoist, but I love 365 Tao. I'm starting my second year reading the daily meditation. It always gives me something to think about and I've gotten some really good insights from the readings. http://www.amazon.com/365-Tao-Meditations-Ming-dao-Deng/dp/0062502239/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294453460&sr=8-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiCO Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Well, I wasn't systematically trained as a young child, but I tried to train myself as a teen and as a young adult. I wanted to believe, I tried to believe, I read, I prayed, I went to church... nothing. I used to cry in church because I couldn't feel what the others were feeling. It was all just too illogical. My daughter is exactly the same. She says she just can't buy into the supernatural element. Me too. I'm a third generation atheist, but I really wanted to be like everyone else in high school and college. I actually met dh through a church group, but we both turned out to be atheists who just liked the people in the group. I've taught my dds about various religions, we've read and discussed the bible. I've told them they are more than welcome to go to church and believe what they wish... no takers there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I've been reading some pagan works, but know nothing about Taoism (apart fro having read The Tao of Pooh years ago). What would you suggest to someone interested in learning about this path? I couldn't tell you, I'm afraid! I'm a Western Taoist, not a Chinese Taoist. Any religion has it's share of home grown tradition and since I'm not Chinese, the Chinesey bits of Taoism didn't mean much to me so I left them out and filled up the gaps with Rosie-ish pagany bits, though I do have the Tao of Pooh around here and re-read it occasionally. When I was younger, I read a few books written by white, Protestant Americans, but funnily enough, they didn't do much for me. I haven't even read Tao Te Ching, though I probably will get to it eventually. I'm not trying to be a good Taoist, see, I'm trying to be a good Rosie. I recommend you trust chiguirre's recommendations :D Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 since I'm not Chinese, em out and filled up the gaps with Rosie-ish pagany bits I love that :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I love that :) I am not quite sure, so correct me please if I am wrong, but paganism is a religion with many traditions, beliefs, spiritualism, tenets etc. I would never consider a pagan an athiest or an agnostic but poly-theist. I have met very spiritual faith-filled pagans. I do not know anything about Tao, but isn't there ancestor worship involved in Buddhist thought?? Or is that some other Eastern religion. I think when we talk about atheism it is very different than agnostic or a belief in some higher power. Faithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I am not quite sure, so correct me please if I am wrong, but paganism is a religion with many traditions, beliefs, spiritualism, tenets etc. I would never consider a pagan an athiest or an agnostic but poly-theist. I have met very spiritual faith-filled pagans. You are correct enough about the bolded bit, but not necessarily about the rest. I don't call myself an atheist because it gives the wrong idea about where I am, but I don't believe in any gods. Pagans can be atheists, monotheists or polytheists. I do not know anything about Tao, but isn't there ancestor worship involved in Buddhist thought?? Or is that some other Eastern religion. That seems a common idea to all Eastern religions. Even if they don't worship, per se, there does seem to be more emphasis placed on those who came before. I guess there are positives and negatives to that. I don't know how Buddhism sits with these ideas. I get cross and shout at books about Buddhism. :o I think when we talk about atheism it is very different than agnostic or a belief in some higher power. They are loaded words, aren't they? And you can't be sure everyone is attaching the same connotations. About that bolded bit. Not everyone considers that power as higher. But "higher" isn't a word with one strict definition either... :) Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freethinkermama Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I am not quite sure, so correct me please if I am wrong, but paganism is a religion with many traditions, beliefs, spiritualism, tenets etc. I would never consider a pagan an athiest or an agnostic but poly-theist. I have met very spiritual faith-filled pagans. I do not know anything about Tao, but isn't there ancestor worship involved in Buddhist thought?? Or is that some other Eastern religion. I think when we talk about atheism it is very different than agnostic or a belief in some higher power. Faithe I have met many atheist pagans. You can actually google "atheist pagan." You're going to have to take peoples' words when they say they don't believe in gods, but do revere nature and have a belief system structured around the cycles of nature, etc. Just because a pagan may be spiritual, it is not just for you to label them agnostic or deist, especially if they call themselves atheist. Though, certainly, pagans can be deists/theists. I also know a couple of Wiccans who do ceremonies thinking of specific deities, but don't actually believe in the deities. They're considered archetypes. Again, they don't BELIEVE these gods exist (though, certainly, some do). But, for someone to say, "These people are actually deists," when they may reject gods, is not kind, and imposes an external belief system on them. As for the Tao--I didn't even know that was a Western vs. Chinese Taoism (though I should have figured that from Rosie's post.) Blargh. Maybe I don't have time for this :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freethinkermama Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I'm not Rosie, and not a committed Taoist, but I love 365 Tao. I'm starting my second year reading the daily meditation. It always gives me something to think about and I've gotten some really good insights from the readings. http://www.amazon.com/365-Tao-Meditations-Ming-dao-Deng/dp/0062502239/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294453460&sr=8-1 Hmm, this is interesting. There's another by this author that is "Everyday Tao." I may try that one :) Thanks for sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I like a lot of the ideas in the Tao. It isn't necessarily religious, but if I do find theistic parts, I just toss them out. I know that could be done with any religion's writings, but it seems easiest to do with the Tao. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 This thread makes me think of the Mortimer Adler quote (I scarfed it from Wikipedia) about modern secularism: "I suggest that the men and women who have given up religion because of the impact on their minds of modern science and philosophy were never truly religious in the first place, but only superstitious. The prevalence and predominance of science in our culture has cured a great many of the superstitious beliefs that constituted their false religiosity. The increase of secularism and irreligion in our society does not reflect a decrease in the number of persons who are truly religious, but a decrease in the number of those who are falsely religious; that is, merely superstitious. There is no question but that science is the cure for superstition, and, if given half the chance with education, it will reduce the amount that exists. The truths of religion must be compatible with the truths of science and the truths of philosophy. As scientific knowledge advances, and as philosophical analysis improves, religion is progressively purified of the superstitions that accidentally attach themselves to it as parasites. That being so, it is easier in fact to be more truly religious today than ever before, precisely because of the advances that have been made in science and philosophy. That is to say, it is easier for those who will make the effort to think clearly in and about religion, not for those whose addiction to religion is nothing more than a slavish adherence to inherited superstition. Throughout the whole of the past, only a small number of men were ever truly religious. The vast majority who gave their epochs and their societies the appearance of being religious were primarily and essentially superstitious.†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 (edited) I've done and tried almost everything, it seems. Grew up Reformed. Converted to Catholocism going through RCIA, became Wesleyan, became Christian Reformed. And then walked away from pretty much everything except a touch of paganism. It never made any sense to me. I loved the ritual of Catholocism but found the religion itself hateful. The other were short on ritual and just not my taste. So I consider myself a pagan atheist and have for YEARS now. DH is an atheist - he will not even be friends with believers, he's got to have concrete thinkers around him or he goes nuts. DD and DS know about religion but they have never expressed any sort of belief in them. DD thinks Santa and Jesus are nice legends or myths. DS just shakes his head. Edited January 9, 2011 by Jennifer3141 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 "I suggest that the men and women who have given up religion because of the impact on their minds of modern science and philosophy were never truly religious in the first place, but only superstitious. The prevalence and predominance of science in our culture has cured a great many of the superstitious beliefs that constituted their false religiosity. The increase of secularism and irreligion in our society does not reflect a decrease in the number of persons who are truly religious, but a decrease in the number of those who are falsely religious; that is, merely superstitious. There is no question but that science is the cure for superstition, and, if given half the chance with education, it will reduce the amount that exists. The truths of religion must be compatible with the truths of science and the truths of philosophy. As scientific knowledge advances, and as philosophical analysis improves, religion is progressively purified of the superstitions that accidentally attach themselves to it as parasites. That being so, it is easier in fact to be more truly religious today than ever before, precisely because of the advances that have been made in science and philosophy. That is to say, it is easier for those who will make the effort to think clearly in and about religion, not for those whose addiction to religion is nothing more than a slavish adherence to inherited superstition. Throughout the whole of the past, only a small number of men were ever truly religious. The vast majority who gave their epochs and their societies the appearance of being religious were primarily and essentially superstitious.†Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 As for the Tao--I didn't even know that was a Western vs. Chinese Taoism (though I should have figured that from Rosie's post.) Blargh. Maybe I don't have time for this :) There isn't a Western v Chinese Taoism, really. Western Taoist just sounds better than "Taoist without the Chinesey bits so it isn't really Taoism, just kind of based on it using the bits we like." Rosie- likes a bit of DIY in religion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freethinkermama Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 This thread makes me think of the Mortimer Adler quote (I scarfed it from Wikipedia) about modern secularism: "I suggest that the men and women who have given up religion because of the impact on their minds of modern science and philosophy were never truly religious in the first place, but only superstitious. The prevalence and predominance of science in our culture has cured a great many of the superstitious beliefs that constituted their false religiosity. The increase of secularism and irreligion in our society does not reflect a decrease in the number of persons who are truly religious, but a decrease in the number of those who are falsely religious; that is, merely superstitious. There is no question but that science is the cure for superstition, and, if given half the chance with education, it will reduce the amount that exists. The truths of religion must be compatible with the truths of science and the truths of philosophy. As scientific knowledge advances, and as philosophical analysis improves, religion is progressively purified of the superstitions that accidentally attach themselves to it as parasites. That being so, it is easier in fact to be more truly religious today than ever before, precisely because of the advances that have been made in science and philosophy. That is to say, it is easier for those who will make the effort to think clearly in and about religion, not for those whose addiction to religion is nothing more than a slavish adherence to inherited superstition. Throughout the whole of the past, only a small number of men were ever truly religious. The vast majority who gave their epochs and their societies the appearance of being religious were primarily and essentially superstitious.†Hmm, I'm wondering about this. My initial, gut-instinct is to say, "no, I don't think so." I think many, many religious people are truly religious and not superstitious. There's an easy way for truly religious people to deal with the scientific issues that contradict their religion--pseudoscience. It's an epidemic in the US. Many thoughtful, decent religious people simply: insist the science is wrong, that "their" science is correct, and that the true science reveals the truth of their god. Still thinking on this. . . interested in what others think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freethinkermama Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 There isn't a Western v Chinese Taoism, really. Western Taoist just sounds better than "Taoist without the Chinesey bits so it isn't really Taoism, just kind of based on it using the bits we like." Rosie- likes a bit of DIY in religion Aha! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Aha! :) Yep. There's no path to study because all of us doing this sort of thing are cutting our own as we go along. So I've saved you some reading time ;) :) Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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