If you believe in gentle discipline, but you also believe in chores...

[melissel]

Can you talk to me about how you manage this issue? I'm trying very hard to manage my temper with the kids, be less sharp, etc. (It's a hard road, because it's not how I was raised--my dad was and is very sharp-tongued, and to me that's just how people talk to each other, you know? Anyway...) I need for the kids to start taking more responsibility around here, but when we've instituted new plans or systems, they've gone great for a few days and then devolved in me harping/yelling at the kids, eventually nothing getting done, and me losing steam because I don't like the way I'm acting toward the kids anymore and I just decide to let it go in the interest of my sanity.

 

I don't want to do this anymore, but I also don't want to be a dictator. I've tried discussing their responsibilities as members of the household, chore charts, paying for chores, not paying for anything unless basic chores are done, not doing anything that day until chores are done, etc.

 

Ideally, I'd like to re-start with our morning chore charts, which consist of: Get dressed, smooth out your bed, put away three things in your room, eat breakfast, put your dish in the dishwasher, brush your teeth, put on a happy face, and start your schoolwork (in whatever order works for each kid). I don't think any of this is too much to ask. What (if anything) has worked for you in getting kids to get their chores done with you turning into a crazy, shrieking harpy over it?

 

TIA!

[fairfarmhand]

morning chores must be done before I feed them breakfast.

 

Make bed, get dressed, put away all clothes and shoes. If they don't piddle it should take all of 10 minutes;

 

Before lunch, same kind of thing.

[Julie in Austin]

I prefer "carrots" to "sticks." In your situation, with your age kiddos, this is what I would do: school starts at 9am (or whenever is a good time for you) but if chores aren't done, then they must be done first. And whatever time it takes from 9am to when the chores are done (whether that's 10 minutes or two hours) is deducted from fun time, meaning that instead of playing at the park, they get to sit on the bench at the park for 10 min or instead of TV, they get to sit in their rooms for two hours.

 

What I like about these "automatic" setups is that I don't have to be the bad guy. At 8:50, I can say, "school starts in 10 min, but if your chores aren't done by then, each minute it takes you to finish will be deducted from your TV time." And then I can walk away from the situation and read my email. ;)

[fairfarmhand]

you also have to practice the non-committal shrug.

 

"but it's not fair." shrug

"but I'm STARRRRRVIVVINNG" shrug.

 

If they know the rules that is that. Just shrug and surf the WTM boards.

[Pata]

"Would you like me to clean up your plate or are you going to do it?" I say.

"You, do it", says dd.

"Ok, but you should now that I charge $5 to do that. I'm going to go put my plate in the dishwasher now, when I come back if your plate is still here, I'll know that you want me to take care of it for you."

 

It's win, win, most kids are smart enough to do it themselves, but if they don't you get some cash for chocolate or Starbucks :). I also go over a job in detail before I hand it over to dd. She'll even shadow me for a few times before I say ok, now it's your responsibility. I got these ideas from a book called Loving your Kids on Purpose, it's a Christian book, don't know if your ok with that or not. I have to say that I'm not perfect, I still have those moments when I'm sharp with her, but I ask for forgiveness and overall it's so much more peaceful here. I'm far more in control of my emotions than I used to be, hope that helps :).

[Aggie]

I prefer "carrots" to "sticks." In your situation, with your age kiddos, this is what I would do: school starts at 9am (or whenever is a good time for you) but if chores aren't done, then they must be done first. And whatever time it takes from 9am to when the chores are done (whether that's 10 minutes or two hours) is deducted from fun time, meaning that instead of playing at the park, they get to sit on the bench at the park for 10 min or instead of TV, they get to sit in their rooms for two hours.

 

What I like about these "automatic" setups is that I don't have to be the bad guy. At 8:50, I can say, "school starts in 10 min, but if your chores aren't done by then, each minute it takes you to finish will be deducted from your TV time." And then I can walk away from the situation and read my email. ;)

 

 

This is our approach, as well. "Gentle discipline" does not mean "no consequences" here. :)

 

If ds does not get his chores done, he doesn't have time for karate and playing outside.

 

If dds do not get their chores done, they don't have enough time for dance.

[ChandlerMom]

morning chores must be done before I feed them breakfast.

 

Make bed, get dressed, put away all clothes and shoes. If they don't piddle it should take all of 10 minutes;

 

Before lunch, same kind of thing.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm a "natural consequences" type. They need a set order (though each kid can be different and you can let them have input, but then post the list). If they want to be fed, they need to finish their chores. Period.

 

Around here, their coursework starts on the hour and when the list is done, they get a break until the next one. If they want to piddle around, less break. They need XYZ done if they want ot play outside during their brother's nap. They need to have ALL schoolwork done before tv or Wii. If they aren't done by 3pm, they lose any tv/wii/treat.

 

They choose the behavior, they choose the consequence (good or bad). :D

[jasar31629]

I have only one, and even though she is at the age where she loves to help and be a part of the family chore system (please tell me some of you have experience where this lasts beyond 11!) she also needs reminders. I live with it...I give a reminder after breakfast to go get 'readied up'...she knows this means teeth brushed, jammies away, bed made, dressed, etc. I double check usually- if she comes out all freshly scrubbed I'll just ask 'did you make your bed?'...if she comes out disheveled I'll know she probably made the bed but forgot to brush her hair, etc. 9 times out of 10 she'll have done it all, and if something is forgotten it usually is truly forgotten- not that she was misbehaving.

 

Other chores are done when I do my own chores...she helps clean bathrooms by doing the sink and tub while I do the mirrors and toilet. On cleaning day she dusts furniture and whatnot while I sweep/mop/vacuum. Once a month she will take a sponge to the woodwork around the edges of the linoleum just after I mop to get all the nitpicky crumblies that are left even after mopping (I remember doing this when I was young and she sings the EXACT same tune I did...Cinderella! lol).

 

She's in charge of cleaning up her desk area now and then, and before cleaning day (or that morning I'll remind her). I don't really mind the reminders...she is a heck of a lot better than I was growing up (and my sisters) and my sewing stuff gets out of control much more quickly than her little projects here and there.

 

Try making the gentle reminders part of your routine so you aren't frustrated when you've forgotten to remind them about the a.m. rituals and you find out mid-afternoon that they haven't brushed teeth/made beds. It will become habit- perhaps it is right after breakfast. Perhaps you would like beds made before breakfast...in that case when they arrive at the table you'll want to check that each of them completed that chore before they dig in. When you go to unload the dishwasher or clean up after lunch, that would be a good time to send the children off to complete another one of theirs before getting involved in afternoon activities. Make it natural (as your own chores are...necessary and not exactly fun, but something to take care of and move on, yk?).

 

This was probably far too long of a response for what information and advice I've given :tongue_smilie: I hope something in there helps.

[jasar31629]

I'll add that we're not a scheduled type unless we're in the office which my dh does right now. Mealtimes are perfect markers for us since we don't skip meals but we'd never hit the '10am we do this, noon we do that'. If you are a scheduled person that may work better for you.

[Soror]

My kids generally comply pretty easily usually they are young! However, I started them v. v. young with doing little things, trying to make it part of life. It is just set as an expectation, we do as some others certain tasks have to be done before others. If they aren't done then there aren't privleges. Rooms not kept clean(more for the older one now) means there is too much stuff and I clean it, which means I will get rid of toys that are not being used.

 

On teaching them just start with small easy jobs, like dusting, washing the walls, scrubbing the toilet and emptying the trash. There isn't a lot to any of those. You have to learn to schedule their work so you are not left dependent on them finishing to do something else, lest you want to rush in and finish it yourself or rush them along. Working alongside each other helps with motivation as well.

 

My dd helps peel veggies for supper I set her up at the start so she has plenty of time and then when she gets tired I finish it up. They often will make the scrambled eggs- I set it up for her to crack and mix the eggs and do little odds and ends in the kitchen while she works on that.

 

We have a general routine as well that I think makes things run smoother.

[laurad1125]

What I like about these "automatic" setups is that I don't have to be the bad guy. At 8:50, I can say, "school starts in 10 min, but if your chores aren't done by then, each minute it takes you to finish will be deducted from your TV time." And then I can walk away from the situation and read my email. ;)

:iagree:

 

This is what finally worked for us. (I, too, was raised with lots of yelling and anger and so want to raise my boys differently.)

 

DS12 gets woken up at 8. He is to be at his desk ready for school (chores done, breakfast eaten) at 9. If he's not, he looses 30 minutes of screen time and has to spend his breaks finishing up his chores. He also looses 5 more minutes of screen time for every additional minute he's late. By the end of the year, he'll loose the warning at 8 and will have to set an alarm.

 

DS7 gets more help but a similar system. I wake him at 8 and set a timer (because he likes 5 more minutes) I set a timer for 20 minutes for chores or breakfast (he gets to choose which is first) and then another 20 minute timer for the other. There are no consequences for not beating the timer but they let him know he'd better hurry if he wants to be at his desk on time. If he's not ready at 9 he looses 5 minutes of screen time for each chore that wasn't completed and does them during break.

 

The absolute hardest part of this is not nagging them. DS12 will lie in bed until 10 til 9 and then get up and rush to get it all done and be at his desk hungry. He doesn't get breakfast until a break later. It took forever for me to let him do this without nagging but I focus on the fact that what I need is for him to start at 9 with chores done. It really doesn't matter how it happens. Of course, with a 12yo, letting go of the how and focusing on what needs to happen is a constant goal (and difficulty) for me... :glare:

[dirty ethel rackham]

The short answer is do it with them until they can do it themselves. Until I was satisfied that they knew what to do, I was with them as they did chores. I rarely sent them to do something until I felt they were ready.

 

I also did a list of routines for each child (morning, lunchtime, afterschool and bedtime) - I didn't call them chores but part of their routine. They included age appropriate activities like the ones you mentioned. For the ones who couldn't read yet, I drew pictures next to their assigned chores so they would have a visual cue as to what was expected. Instead of yelling, I would ask them if they were done with their routines. If they didn't know what to do, I would have them check the list. The word "list" became a code word reminder. If they didn't comply right away, I would take their hand and take them to the next thing on their list. Some people don't do meals until the things on the list are done. That just didn't work in my house - my kids were just too hungry in the mornings to be reasonable. BUT, nothing fun happens in the house until the lists are done. Sometimes I used a timer and played "beat the clock" with a prize. Not an everyday thing, but a once in a while thing to show them that they could be faster.

 

I guess the biggest thing that works in my house is MY attitude. If I treat my kids as works in progress rather than faulty kids just trying to get my goad, I could stay more calm. If I just expected that I would have to be available to keep them on task, I would not get frustrated when they got distracted. Knowing that I am not perfect helped me to extend grace to my kids. Part of my attitude adjustment (one that I adopted early in my marriage toward my husband) is always assume the best of intentions - even if the end result was not what I wanted. If I assumed my kids wanted to please me, but fell short, it was easier to get them back on track without big power struggles.

[CalicoKat]

The kids have a list of daily/weekly chores. If they don't get their list done for the day -- barring unforeseen life circumstances-- then they know they'll have an earlier bedtime that evening. It's their decision then to finish or not, but the work does have a way of piling up if they keep at it for a few days.

 

Catch up became impossible for one child so there was a "line drawn" and a "reset" of the daily or early bedtime policy to allow her to succeed. She's staying on task really well now.

[Ellie]

Gentle discipline and requiring dc to do chores are not mutually exclusive.

 

There's nothing un-gentle about looking dc in the eyeball and telling them to get busy.

 

When we give dc chores, we have to instruct, direct, reinforce, reinstruct, model, follow up. We can't hand them a list and tell them to go do it. It doesn't hurt to have time limitations, either, but when we give them specific amounts of time, or specific times of the day, we have to follow up on that and require them to do it.

[ChandlerMom]

The short answer is do it with them until they can do it themselves. Until I was satisfied that they knew what to do, I was with them as they did chores. I rarely sent them to do something until I felt they were ready.

 

I also did a list of routines for each child (morning, lunchtime, afterschool and bedtime) - I didn't call them chores but part of their routine. They included age appropriate activities like the ones you mentioned. For the ones who couldn't read yet, I drew pictures next to their assigned chores so they would have a visual cue as to what was expected. Instead of yelling, I would ask them if they were done with their routines. If they didn't know what to do, I would have them check the list. The word "list" became a code word reminder. If they didn't comply right away, I would take their hand and take them to the next thing on their list. Some people don't do meals until the things on the list are done. That just didn't work in my house - my kids were just too hungry in the mornings to be reasonable. BUT, nothing fun happens in the house until the lists are done. Sometimes I used a timer and played "beat the clock" with a prize. Not an everyday thing, but a once in a while thing to show them that they could be faster.

 

I guess the biggest thing that works in my house is MY attitude. If I treat my kids as works in progress rather than faulty kids just trying to get my goad, I could stay more calm. If I just expected that I would have to be available to keep them on task, I would not get frustrated when they got distracted. Knowing that I am not perfect helped me to extend grace to my kids. Part of my attitude adjustment (one that I adopted early in my marriage toward my husband) is always assume the best of intentions - even if the end result was not what I wanted. If I assumed my kids wanted to please me, but fell short, it was easier to get them back on track without big power struggles.

 

:iagree: I really like how you put this. It is about attitude and it goes much smoother when you start doing things WITH them. Doesn't give you the satisfying "free" time to go get other things done, but if you approach it not expecting to be able to totally hand it off (for now), it helps! Bedtime routine is like that -- after a few nights of being frustrated they weren't getting ready fast enough, we realized they still just need us there, or we give them X minutes before we head up. ;)

 

Our family motto is "zero net impact" -- the idea that the goal for each of us (them) is to ultimately have a net zero impact on the workload of the family with the understanding that right now that's not realistic, but something to move towards. I think the big picture team aspect also has helped us.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I'm big on saying "after x (chore, request, whatever) we can have our meal, go play, watch tv, go to Cubs. The desirable thing doesn't happen until the responsibility is fulfilled. We have whining from the 3 and 4 yo's but usually by the time they are 5 or 6 they just do what they need to do.

[melissel]

Gentle discipline and requiring dc to do chores are not mutually exclusive.

 

There's nothing un-gentle about looking dc in the eyeball and telling them to get busy.

 

When we give dc chores, we have to instruct, direct, reinforce, reinstruct, model, follow up. We can't hand them a list and tell them to go do it. It doesn't hurt to have time limitations, either, but when we give them specific amounts of time, or specific times of the day, we have to follow up on that and require them to do it.

 

Thanks, I do realize this. I was mainly trying to head off responses that suggested spankings for disobedience as well as responses that tended toward the "Well, I ask my child to do something, but if she chooses not to, I respect her need for free time as a human being and do the job myself!" I'm active on another board where that's a prevailing attitude, and it just doesn't fly here!

[Farrar]

Gentle discipline and requiring dc to do chores are not mutually exclusive.

 

There's nothing un-gentle about looking dc in the eyeball and telling them to get busy.

 

:iagree: I think a lot of people who believe really strongly in "gentle discipline" also feel like directing their kids outright is at odds with that. As in, that they want to create a situation where they've encouraged the behavior without saying "Go do that!" Obviously, when you can use the carrot, great, and it's good to look for new ways to do that - but when you can't, then you have to be prepared with a very gentle, metaphorical stick in the form of a firm voice and some preset consequences. :D

 

you also have to practice the non-committal shrug.

 

 

:iagree: Yup. Don't take it personally - especially not in the implementation stage. Obviously, it's good to re-evaluate your expectations or the routine if the kids are miserable day in day out with the chores... but your expectations sound really reasonable. Just go forward and make it happen.

[myfunnybunch]

We do something very similar to Julie in Austin, except school time starts at 9 a.m. on the dot, chores done or not. What is not finished before 9 a.m. gets finished during break/play time. Play time is not extended to allow extra time for chores, so a child may end up finishing chores during the entire break or before we leave to play with a friend.

 

All chores, school, reading and music practice must be finished before video game time (5:30) or the child cannot play video games.

 

What I like about these "automatic" setups is that I don't have to be the bad guy.

 

Yes, this. We came up with the rules together, we agreed on them and now we all must follow through.

 

For my kids, the first few days after we implement a new system usually go swimmingly. Then it gets challenging for a while. Consistently following through and maintaining the routine help smooth things out. It takes some time but it's worth it. My kids started setting the alarm to get up and do their chores before breakfast so that they can play between breakfast and school.

 

:)

 

Cat

Edited December 29, 2010 by myfunnybunch

[Sasharowan]

Age mostly, my older 3 mostly keep their rooms neat due to some re-organizing and getting mature enough that it bothered them. Around 10, Dad pointing out that Mom picking up all the mess led to a grumpy Mom and not much time for fun stuff, but if everyone helped, then we had time for family games or movies.

[Laura Corin]

Written lists work best for me. Rather than chasing the children for each task, I drink a cup of tea and keep saying calmly, 'Go and look at your list.' Then, when the child claims to have finished the list, I can wander around and check.

 

Laura

[Joanne]

:iagree: I think a lot of people who believe really strongly in "gentle discipline" also feel like directing their kids outright is at odds with that. As in, that they want to create a situation where they've encouraged the behavior without saying "Go do that!" Obviously, when you can use the carrot, great, and it's good to look for new ways to do that - but when you can't, then you have to be prepared with a very gentle, metaphorical stick in the form of a firm voice and some preset consequences. :D

 

 

:iagree: Yup. Don't take it personally - especially not in the implementation stage. Obviously, it's good to re-evaluate your expectations or the routine if the kids are miserable day in day out with the chores... but your expectations sound really reasonable. Just go forward and make it happen.

 

 

I've counseled Christian women for 15 years in the areas of "gentle discipline". There is a certain percentage of them who are less comfortable with stern, with firm expectations and with direct discipline.

 

OP, it's common for new chore systems to lose momentum. Here, the focus point has always been my follow up and consistency. I'd have to start there when interest wanes.

 

I agree with other posters that recreational time is what gets eliminated if chores and schoolwork are not done. Although a "gentle discipline" advocate, (the name is a bit of a misnomer), I will also add *more* chores if whining, attitude, and negativity or severe delay happens.

 

Sometimes phrasing helps "As soon as the dishes are done, we'll go to the park" is better than "if you don't do the dishes, there will be no park".

[alpidarkomama]

Ours are still little - 7, 5, 4, and 3. They each have their jobs to do. If they balk at doing a particular job, then they can pay $0.25 to a sibling to do the job for them. There's no lack of siblings interested in earning an extra $0.25. They each get pocket money each week (not directly connected to their allowance). They can spend it on their own things (we pitch in 50% if it's something educational) or they can spend it paying someone to do their job/s. I would say someone earns an extra quarter only 1-2x/week. :) Their pocket money is pretty small too. $1.50-2.00/week.

[LibraryLover]

I believe in families working together, and I believe in chores to make life more pleasant for all of us. We all have chores, but we do not have charts, and there are no rewards for chores, but also no punishments if something happens and you can't get to it. We know everyone is doing the best they can, even the youngest ones.

 

We talk about what needs to be done (dishes, laundry, vac, indoor pets, barn animals, gardens, shoveling, mowing, bathrooms etc) , and we do it. Sometimes we switch things around, depending on schedules. Sometimes dh and I might say, 'Hey, Brother was supposed to unload the dishwasher, but he had an unexpected assignment. Will someone trade with him?" etc. We've been very flex, and kids respect this. People are often surprised by how much our kids do (without argument) to help keep things running smoothly. I think it is partly their personalities, but I also think not making chores a deal with stars and/or punishments/yelling, has helped OUR family, given our particular personalities. (I do think lists are a good thing). We help each other because it's the right thing to do, and because it means everyone gets what they need, without making one person (Mom?) responsible for everything. None of this team work is based on anyone losing anything; it's all about everyone working together to get done what needs to get done.

Edited December 29, 2010 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

Written lists work best for me. Rather than chasing the children for each task, I drink a cup of tea and keep saying calmly, 'Go and look at your list.' Then, when the child claims to have finished the list, I can wander around and check.

 

Laura

 

 

I like it. I think kids don't often know how they can help, or they are often overwhelmed by what might need doing. I think lists can work well.

Edited December 29, 2010 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

The thing that worked the best for me when they were younger, and now with the 5 yr old and the 11 yr old (infrequently) is to walk them through it. I want the bowl in the sink, so I say "Please put your bowl in the sink" and I help if needed. Meaning I might hand the bowl to them, or I might be standing near the sink when they get there, and I take it from them. "Thanks!" When it's time to brush teeth, I hand the toothbrush to the 5 year old. Even the 11 yr old might need a little company if tired. "Here babe. Time to brush. Finish up and then I'll braid your hair while you read to me, then I'll read to you". If it's time to get dressed, I hand the child the T shirt. Beds can be made in seconds if there is only a quilt to pull up to the pillows. "You get on the that side, and I'll help on this side." My 18 and 17 yr old are certainly not asking me to help make their beds or help them get dressed. lol Even my 11 yr old needs only minor support, and even then only at times when she is tired. Not true at 5, however.

 

But. I don't care if the child does math in jammies. I don't care if their room is totally tidy. Picking up can be done at night, and I can be there with them as I tuck them into bed. "Here, you put this in the hamper, and this book on the shelf, and I will put this shirt in your drawer". I think it takes years of modeling / helping. I think it's time well spent. :)

Edited December 29, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Stacy in NJ]

If they have daily chores they need to do, post the list in a viewable location like their bedroom door or the frig.

 

Mine have both daily lists (make bed, pick up laundry...) and weekly lists for larger chores.

 

 

Written lists work best for me. Rather than chasing the children for each task, I drink a cup of tea and keep saying calmly, 'Go and look at your list.' Then, when the child claims to have finished the list, I can wander around and check.

 

Laura

[Ellie]

Thanks, I do realize this. I was mainly trying to head off responses that suggested spankings for disobedience as well as responses that tended toward the "Well, I ask my child to do something, but if she chooses not to, I respect her need for free time as a human being and do the job myself!" I'm active on another board where that's a prevailing attitude, and it just doesn't fly here!

Oh, good grief.

 

You know, when you live with someone else you don't get to have your freedom at his expense, for goodness' sake.

[Embassy]

"Would you like me to clean up your plate or are you going to do it?" I say.

"You, do it", says dd.

"Ok, but you should now that I charge $5 to do that. I'm going to go put my plate in the dishwasher now, when I come back if your plate is still here, I'll know that you want me to take care of it for you."

 

LOL, I do that too, but instead of charging money I charge precious computer/Wii time. Sometimes they will choose to let me do it, but not often.

 

When they need to clean up an effective strategy has been to let them know that I will keep anything that is still on the floor in x minutes. It is rare for anything to be left on the floor, but when there has been it gets packed away and they have to earn it back with extra chores.

 

Also, in the morning they have to get dressed and complete their exercise before breakfast or there is no chance of having any computer or Wii time all day.

[LibraryLover]

I won't name names ;) lol, but one of mine had a little list we taped to his closet door, and when he was 6 he told me it made him nervous. It simply overwhlemed him, even though there were only 4 items on the list. Not everyone operates in the same way. There is no- one- size- fits- all approach to this. (He was and is a perfectionist, although he has chilled quite a bit, thankfully). I felt terrible, so we ripped it off. He did well without it.

 

I think it does depend on the child. Individual needs matter.

 

 

If they have daily chores they need to do, post the list in a viewable location like their bedroom door or the frig.

 

Mine have both daily lists (make bed, pick up laundry...) and weekly lists for larger chores.

Edited December 29, 2010 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

--Well, I ask my child to do something, but if she chooses not to, I respect her need for free time as a human being and do the job myself!" I'm active on another list. -

 

 

I respect my children. My kids know they are *needed*. They understand it's not fair for one person to be responsible for everything that needs to be done in a home. My dh and I respect each other, and we respect our kids. That means we work together as a family to help each other.

Edited December 29, 2010 by LibraryLover

[duckens]

Ethel says:

The short answer is do it with them until they can do it themselves. Until I was satisfied that they knew what to do, I was with them as they did chores. I rarely sent them to do something until I felt they were ready.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

This worked for me for the last (homeschooling) family for which I babysat. If I remember correctly, the OP's children are 5 and 8. For many years, I did chores/routine WITH the children. By the last summer (ages 7 and 10), I sat around and read a ridiculous amount because the kids were so independent at doing their chores on their own. I knew that the previous 6 years of time investment in the children had paid off.

 

Even with dd4, I ask, do you want to brush your teeth before or after me? Do you want to be first or second?

 

-------------------------

 

As for the yelling, I realized that I yelled at the kids (dd and babysitting kids) wayyyyy too much because they did not listen when I made a repeated request. After asking twice, I started saying, "I've asked you twice already: [insert request here]" With phrasing like that, the kids finally would listen; and if they didn't respond to that, I didn't feel so bad yelling in that situation. :D