State/Gov't Regulation of HS: Good or Bad?

[mommaduck]

Not everyone feels this way. FWIW, I think your comments toward Ester Maria are harsh and inappropriate. I, for one, value her contributions to this discussion.

 

Can we please keep it civil?

Try reading further. I apologised publicly to her ;)

 

Now if you want European laws here, then you are welcome to try to get them here. And others are welcome to try to fight them. Such is our diversity and individuality.

[mommaduck]

Maybe what Ester Maria calls an expert is not the same as what you call an expert.

 

 

 

Heaven forbid we might learn something from others? In comparing Italy with the US, the rest of us are being introduced to different ideas that might actually be worth considering. If we don't think so, we can ignore Ester Maria.

 

 

 

 

"We" doesn't include those non-schoolers, does it? No one is trying to prevent homeschoolers who are doing better than PS from doing what they do. It's the ones who do worse that we're all worried about.

 

Rosie

We've already been over this on this thread. It appears that she was presuming certain things based on her experience with the Italian system. There isn't a comparison. Ideas are fine. Idealism is fine. But reality is different.

Edited September 10, 2010 by mommaduck

[Spy Car]

This whole concept does not exist anywhere, anywhere, anywhere in American public education and has not existed for several decades.

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is simply not so. Public School children in California are tested on skills and facts. Math, grammar, reading comprehension are all included in State testing along with many other basic skills.

 

Bill

[mommaduck]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: FOR THOSE THAT MISSED IT FROM EARLIER IN THE THREAD AND NEED A REPEAT OR FEEL THAT THE PREVIOUS WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH...

 

Ester Maria, I'm sorry that I came off so strong. It was frustrating, seeing especially so many people trying to explain that the system here is very different and run by a different set of rules than what you are accustomed and it seemed you could not comprehend that. I also was not sure whether you were offering idealism or thought that what you suggested was reality here. Sometimes we hit and miss, causing misunderstanding. But things are different here and it's difficult when parents here do the darnest they can to do better and the suggestions, if they were put in place in our current bureaucratic structure, would just hinder us more as homeschooling parents. I like your idealism. I'm glad that you have something that you find you can trust and depend on. I do think that's great.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I'm sorry, but this is simply not so. Public School children in California are tested on skills and facts. Math, grammar, reading comprehension are all included in State testing along with many other basic skills.

 

Bill

 

Bill, have you read Dumbing Us Down by Charles Sykes? The chapter on Dumbing Down the Tests was quite enlightening, and almost exclusively about California tests.

 

From another chapter, "How Did Einstein Feel?"

 

The California Learning Assessment System (CLAS) is perhaps the nation's widest scale test of so-called "performance based" and "outcome based" learning. Nearly a million and a half of the state's fourth, eighth, and tenth graders took the test in 1994. Students taking the test are graded on a six-point scale. On the writing section, a score of one would indicate that the student's sample was "brief, incoherent, disorganized and undeveloped." A student could earn a score of six for writing that is deemed to be "confident, purposefully coherent and clearly focused."

 

In May 1994, The New York Times published three eighth graders' answers to this question on the state's reading test: "Think about Einstein as a person and as a scientist. In the split 'profile' and below it, use symbols, images, drawings, and/or words (emphasis added).....

 

The [CLAS], in other words, is a test of writing skills with a test that does not require students to write complete sentences, much less paragraphs. By eighth grade, students should theoretically be able to express ideas and thoughts without drawing pictures, but the California test lets students use "symbols, images, and drawings" in place of language. to give your ideas about Einstein the person and Einstein the scientist."

 

The chapter goes on to explain how a student was able to score a 6/6 with scribbles, misspelled and randomly placed words, and an absence of any reference to Einstein's scientific contributions.

 

That was in 1994. I don't know how things have changed in CA since then but it is hard to believe that the schools have improved when one looks at the increase in homeschooling in CA over the past 15 years.

[Rosie_0801]

I did read the public service announcement eventually. Sorry, but I have to sleep sometimes and you people really can fill up pages while I'm doing that :D

 

But how does it work nationally? Husband went to high school in Texas, then went to university in Texas - easy. But are there databases of high schools for inter-state university applications? And how about a good high school with, for example, a useless physics teacher: how can a university assess an 'A' without knowing each individual teacher and marking scale?

 

 

If students are being tested individually on a written test and in an interview such as Ester Maria's kids are, if Good High School had a useless teacher, Good High School would freak out and boot the teacher when they realise the whole class got crappy marks. If most students taking that test on that year and every other are getting 85%, give or take a little, and Useless Teacher's students are averaging 45%, there'd be trouble. Presumably the testers keep a national standard by administering the same tests and comparing it carefully with the previous years tests to ensure it is equal, though worded differently? Over the years, statisticians will pick up trends and it if is found that Z state consistently scores worse than everyone else, they will say so and Z state ought to be embarrassed enough to switch curricula and start doing whatever it is that the high achieving Y state is doing.

 

Assuming there are experts somewhere, their contracts can be written so that a few weeks of state testing per year is part of their job. Or at least I can't think right now why they couldn't. What kind of expert, I mean expert, not "expert" wouldn't care to be part of a process that was making sure others were being well educated in their favourite field? The expert doesn't have to be the local PS teacher. The expert shouldn't even be one person. There should be cross marking.

 

In our county, the number one foreign language expert is not state certified to teach. But if I cared to have my child evaluated to see what his or her proficiency in a variety of European languages was, this man would be the one to do it. Yet, though foreign language instruction is abyssmal in this county, he cannot enter a classroom and assist because he is not an "expert".....because expert means state certified.

 

But if you and all your mates had to have your kids tested and jumped up and down demanding this guy, or only people who could pass the UN language tests (or some equivalent) then you'd eventually get your way. Very few people and their anti-homeschool neighbours would shout you down about this one!

 

Sensible practice might not be able to be implemented tomorrow, but less stupid can be eventually if people make enough noise.

 

 

Here's an example:

 

In Michigan, when I grew up, swimming was a required class for graduation. I was on the high school swim team and had been on an age group swim team since I was 9. I qualified for the State Championships in freestyle all four years. I could definitely do freestyle. The gym teacher had each student swim one length of the pool freestyle. She gave the kids who could barely stay on top of the water a C.

 

She failed me.

 

No, nothing ever happened to her. She had years and years of tenure. She continued to teach at the school and continued to give failing grades to students she didn't like.

 

Wow. My mother would have seriously kicked that teacher's behind, and the principal's too. Actually, she did, and they rarely pulled those kinds of stunts again.

 

Rosie

[Perry]

 

That was in 1994. I don't know how things have changed in CA since then but it is hard to believe that the schools have improved when one looks at the increase in homeschooling in CA over the past 15 years.

 

The standards have changed a great deal, and are actually quite impressive. I don't know how it works out in reality, but on paper they look great.

 

Standards

 

Edexcellence has an analysis, and gives California excellent marks.

[Lolly]

Maybe it's a personality thing. I'm extremely difficult to intimidate, both my daughters are extremely difficult to intimidate too.

 

In an exam situation (not talking regular school attendance situation with all the innumerable possibilities of all types of bullying, just an exam), they ask you concrete questions on concrete material that's agreed upon in advance. No matter how uncomfortable they can be, if you know, you KNOW, and there is no way they can fail you. At worst, they can lower your grade, for about a grade or so. But they cannot FAIL you - not if you know the prescribed content.

 

I've met dozens of what you would call intimidating professors, but at the end of the day it comes to your concrete knowledge. They cannot manipulate your grade and do you wrong very much - especially not if there's a commission, i.e. a few people rather than a single person. What CAN happen is that you're so blocked that you can't think anymore - exams on whole can be a stressful situation.

 

We had an Art History professor in school and there were "correct" answers to questions such as "Which is your favorite church in Rome?". She could really favor somebody on the grounds of such things, and go in an overall easier direction with kids who agreed with her on Art taste. But still, even if you didn't agree with her... she couldn't ask you things that weren't in the program. And if you knew, you knew, no matter her nasty comments on your lack of artistic taste and appreciation and degradation of our culture because of people like you. Likewise, if she failed you, she failed you because you didn't know concrete things she asked you - even if those were more difficult questions, you could never be asked things that weren't in the program, and everybody knew it.

 

It's nearly impossible to fail somebody who knows things, kwim?

 

If in an oral exam, the child did not speak; what would happen then? I'm guessing that child would be failed. I have one child who even though they know the material, would absolutely refuse to speak to an adult they did not know. They would have just been scared stiff. You can say that they just shouldn't be intimidated, but it isn't enough. A child on their own in front of a stranger just isn't strong enough sometimes.

 

I have known "experts" who WOULD fail you if you chose the wrong church in Rome as your favorite. My dd had a world view class in 8th grade in a private school. If you did not have the "correct" world view, you failed. It didn't matter if you backed your views and principles up. You had to agree with the teacher's manual when it came to answers. I have had "expert" teachers at a college level who would fail you if you did not regurgitate their views on novels back to them that you were given in class. Higher order thinking, forget it. Just agree with what was fed. In an ideal world, these things wouldn't happen. I don't know about you, but I do not live in an ideal world.

[TravelingChris]

I have been homeschooling for a long time, since my oldest was in 2nd grade and he is 21 now. I have homeschooled in medium regulation states and very low/no regulations areas. I have never homeschooled in a very high regulated state like PA or NY. But the funny thing is, I haven't changed the basic way we homeschool. When we lived in Europe for a few years and I didn't test for two out of three years, when I moved back and tested, everyone was right where I thought they would be.

 

I live in VA right now and do the minimum testing since I don't need more. I haven't met these non schooling parents in all my years of education. The closest thing to that I have ever met is one parent who was thinking of homeschooling her dropout high school son by tutoring him to pass the GED. She wasn't sure he would do that anyway. But I don't even consider that a nonschooler but rather a mom with a troubled teen trying to do the best she can.

I don't doubt that some of you have met slacker parents. But I would guess that slacker parents also don't provide their children with good preventative health care (including visits to dentists, checkups from doctors, etc), don't provide meaningful activities for their children, take the easy way out with meals (and I have met a child who went to PS and had no food in the house since all meals came from fast food joints and she was amazed that my daughter ate home cooked meals) and no one thinks to regulate them for that. Well I am against regulation. I am for education. So having PSAs touting how you should take your kid to the dentist is fine. Having the gov't vhevk up on you isn't. Same with homeschooling. Seems to me medical care and proper nutrition is even more important than education so no, I don't think they should regulate us.

[Spy Car]

The standards have changed a great deal, and are actually quite impressive. I don't know how it works out in reality, but on paper they look great.

 

Standards

 

Edexcellence has an analysis, and gives California excellent marks.

 

The schools here are not perfect. There are still too many low functioning schools. Generally there are social problems (crime, poverty, etc) associate with low performing schools, but that is not an excuse for not improving.

 

But there are also a good number of highly (or even very highly) performing schools. We have the good fortune to have our child in one of LA's best Public Schools.

 

The test scores are pretty accurate in comparing schools where the children are getting a great education with those that are in trouble. Is any test perfect? I doubt it.

 

Still, what's wrong with aiming for high standards and designing tests to evaluate achievement?

 

If homeschool children take the tests and outperform highly functioning public schools it could only strengthen the home school movement, and push the Public School community (including parents) to do better.

 

I also think some home school parents would be shocked to see just how highly the "good schools" perform. I think it might be an eye-opener for some.

 

Bill

Edited September 10, 2010 by Spy Car

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I realize I have been reactionary and inflammatory in this thread.

 

My anti-school rhetoric is becoming more inflated because I am physically and mentally exhausted! It frustrates me that I can not turn to our local schools (who suck me dry in property taxes) at this point when I would really, really like to send my older two to school so I can have more time and mental energy to deal with financial issues.

 

I do believe that....

 

1. There are good public schools.

2. There are good teachers.

3. Many schools outperform many homeschoolers, to our shame.

4. There will be doctors, lawyers, judges, presidents, scientists, writers, and mathematicians to come out of today's public schools.

 

I also believe that....

 

1. None of those good schools are near me. I have checked.

 

2. The quality of public education in America is a total crap shoot. Each child is at the mercy of his location and the gulf between the have's and the have not's is ever widening. Good schools may be getting better, but bad schools are getting to be so bad that the children who have no choice but to attend (and/or drop out) will have almost no hope of an independent future.

 

And that's the problem. That's why I painted it the way I did for Ester Maria. The schools have no social contract with the child. In parts of Europe, sending your child to school means that he will be exposed to proper teaching in various subjects. That is not what it means here.

 

Spy Car, you have a decent income and some choices concerning your child's education. You can find him a good school, and you can supplement the few weak areas that you want to address. Those options are for fewer and fewer Americans.

 

Most of us have two options in 2010: 1. Put our kids on that bus headed for Nowheresville, or 2. homeschool.

 

We can't even move to better school districts because of the housing crisis.

 

The whole scenario sucks.

[In2why]

I haven't read ahead, and I haven't really thought out they what ifs of regulation. But my knee jerk reaction is that yes there should be some type of accountability. At least a basic Math and English proficiency test. I know in Virginia we test yearly and the bare minimum passing is something that every child should be able to accomplish. If they can't there needs to be a valid reason as to why not. I don't like testing in general, and I don't teach according to the state, or WTM's recommendations, and I pretty much bristle at state intervention, but children need to be taught the 3 R's and I don't want homeschooling used as a way for lazy parents to avoid their responsibility.

[Spy Car]

The whole scenario sucks.

 

Believe me, I understand the frustration of those with poor (or very poor) Public School choices. And I think you're correct in seeing a widening gap between those who have access to good schools and those that don't. This is not a good situation for society in general.

 

I also understand that many homeschooling parents give their children educations that would be the envy of even those with children in the "best schools." My wife and I spend considerqble effort "after schooling" (despite being in a top rated school) because we share the values common to "homeschoolers" that the fundamental basics such as phonics, grammar, and math are understood at a "classical" level. And there, even really good schools are not perfect.

 

That said, there is a richness of experience that I see that is very different that the stereotype of all Public Schools. I wish everyone who wanted it had the option of a really good school for their children if that was their choice. I'm very grateful we have that option. I understand and regret that's not the case for everyone. It's a shame.

 

Bill

[Sahamamama]

Here's an example:

 

In Michigan, when I grew up, swimming was a required class for graduation. I was on the high school swim team and had been on an age group swim team since I was 9. I qualified for the State Championships in freestyle all four years. I could definitely do freestyle. The gym teacher had each student swim one length of the pool freestyle. She gave the kids who could barely stay on top of the water a C.

 

She failed me.

 

No, nothing ever happened to her. She had years and years of tenure. She continued to teach at the school and continued to give failing grades to students she didn't like.

 

Here's another example:

 

In one class we had to take an exam. When we received our graded exam papers, we were surprised at who had done well (the "slackers") and who had done poorly (the "honors" students).

 

It turned out that the teacher had graded the exams by deducting many point for every item answered incorrectly, BUT did not deduct ANY points for an item that was left unanswered.

 

So a student who had completed the test (a very poorly constructed test by any measure) would possibly receive a lower mark than a student who had only completed a portion, even less than half, of the exam.

 

There were students who had completed EVERY item, yet failed the test, because so many points were deducted for "wrong answers."

 

There were students who had barely made an attempt at doing the exam, but they passed because they were only graded on what they attempted.

 

Despite protests by the highest ranking students in the school, despite protests by their parents, NOTHING was EVER done about this teacher. He continued to teach -- and test -- in this manner for many years.

 

He had tenure. :tongue_smilie:

[Sahamamama]

Ester Maria, I am getting the impression that Italian children are tested on the content of their lessons. They are learning academic facts, such as geographical locations, dates, scientific knowledge, grammar, Latin, or whatever.

 

Fourth graders have a test on material that all fourth graders should know by the time they finish fourth grade. It is quite black-and-white, and the bias of the test administrator does not come into play because either the child knows the periodic table or he does not.

 

This whole concept does not exist anywhere, anywhere, anywhere in American public education and has not existed for several decades.

 

Fourth graders are not learning concrete material about geography, history, science, mathematics, grammar, or languages. They are guinea pigs in various experiments of pedagogy, and no two school districts are experimenting on the children in the same way.

 

Lessons are not equal. Tests are not equal. Qualifications of teachers are not equal.

 

Nothing is actually measurable.

 

Teachers scramble around trying to prepare children for tests that are primarily psychological and sociological evaluations. The children aren't going to be asked what is the capital of Massachusetts. They are going to be filling in little bubbles on scan tron tests to prove that they absorbed whatever educationist jargon they were exposed to over the last 9 months.

 

The children have zero assurance that their lessons or their exams have anything at all to do with getting into university, or even advancing to the next grade in grammar school. They are being tested on their feelings, on their prejudices, and on their group-think skills.

 

If homeschoolers get sucked into this bizarre vortex in the same dreamlike way that Alice fell down the rabbit hole, the teachers (who are the ones who administer tests) are suspicious of the child's performance because they know for a fact that he has not been sitting through this year's educational experiment. And who knows what psychology his ignorant parents have been practicing on him. And so the judgment begins.

 

If he does better than his peers academically, they suspect his parents of being cruel. If he seems to hold a different worldview, they suspect his parents of brainwashing him. If he is a loner but quite content, they suspect he is a sociopath.

 

He isn't tested on history or science. He is tested on current theories held by people who do not have academic degrees but teaching certificates.

 

In some school districts, a child educated with The Well-Trained Mind or the Latin-Centered Curriculum will test as "behind" in a public school, even though the public school never, ever teaches phonics, grammar, ancient history, or languages.

 

He's "behind" because he hasn't learned to play the fake education game his peers have been playing since they went to school.

 

Italian Education: Oranges.

American Education: Apples.

 

This is true, unless the public/charter school is a Core Knowledge school. In that case, hopefully, there IS agreed-upon (and therefore, testable) CONTENT to be mastered as part of the curriculum.

 

http://www.coreknowledge.org/

[Sahamamama]

This needn't be argumentative. There is no reason why we should be enemies. We ought to remember we are interested in the same goal, that the children in question are making progress in their education. That means we are on the same team.

Rosie

 

Hi, Rosie, thanks for taking part in this conversation. :D

 

I just think that in the US, so many of us feel that we are NOT interested in the same goal. I'm not sure how this enmity came about, but it definitely doesn't FEEL as though we are on the same team.

 

I am glad that in Australia, for you, it does feel that way. I hope you keep that freedom and partnership with your public school people for a long time to come.

 

But I'd say that we're past that here, at least where I live.

 

Blessings.

[Rosie_0801]

Hi, Rosie, thanks for taking part in this conversation. :D

I just think that in the US, so many of us feel that we are NOT interested in the same goal. I'm not sure how this enmity came about, but it definitely doesn't FEEL as though we are on the same team.

 

 

 

I was talking about the ideal. I realise not everyone out there is as mature as we are.

 

:D

 

We don't have inspectors in our state but buddies elsewhere do and give mixed reviews. Some inspectors are great, like having a cheerful auntie come to have coffee and talk shop. Some are convinced all homeschoolers should be under surveillance by ASIO.

 

Rosie

[Retired]

LOLOLOL...In our area you may occassionally see a sign in front of a house:

 

RABBITS FOR SALE - FOR PETS OR MEAT

 

This thread has re-energized me...It's been a very depressing summer for me with the political/economic scene and with many HS's we know falling away...we feel a bit alone lately...glad to see some sisters of liberty out there.

 

from, a NJ emigrant.:001_smile:

 

This has nothing to do with thread but there is local sign selling 5 gallon buckets of rabbit pellets for $5.00 if your interested:lol:

[pdalley]

I realize I have been reactionary and inflammatory in this thread.

 

My anti-school rhetoric is becoming more inflated because I am physically and mentally exhausted! It frustrates me that I can not turn to our local schools (who suck me dry in property taxes) at this point when I would really, really like to send my older two to school so I can have more time and mental energy to deal with financial issues.

 

I do believe that....

 

1. There are good public schools.

2. There are good teachers.

3. Many schools outperform many homeschoolers, to our shame.

4. There will be doctors, lawyers, judges, presidents, scientists, writers, and mathematicians to come out of today's public schools.

 

I also believe that....

 

1. None of those good schools are near me. I have checked.

 

2. The quality of public education in America is a total crap shoot. Each child is at the mercy of his location and the gulf between the have's and the have not's is ever widening. Good schools may be getting better, but bad schools are getting to be so bad that the children who have no choice but to attend (and/or drop out) will have almost no hope of an independent future.

 

And that's the problem. That's why I painted it the way I did for Ester Maria. The schools have no social contract with the child. In parts of Europe, sending your child to school means that he will be exposed to proper teaching in various subjects. That is not what it means here.

 

Spy Car, you have a decent income and some choices concerning your child's education. You can find him a good school, and you can supplement the few weak areas that you want to address. Those options are for fewer and fewer Americans.

 

Most of us have two options in 2010: 1. Put our kids on that bus headed for Nowheresville, or 2. homeschool.

 

We can't even move to better school districts because of the housing crisis.

 

The whole scenario sucks.

:iagree:

 

And in NC there is a cap on charter schools. Only100 charter schools may exist in this entire state. It's a travesty. I - and others in the state- are lobbying for change but the current Gov is not a fan of charters.

 

I have the scars from our experience with our local public schools. Private schools will not touch our kids because of their disabilities even if we could afford it. The waiting list for the good charter in the area is years long.

 

I have no choice at the present time and since the local system has made such a mess of the public schools here you won't find I have good things to say about them. Except that they let us leave with no hassle. In fact I think they were glad to see us go.

 

I'm a product of the NC public schools. I wasn't taught Biology. My teacher spent 180 days ranting and raving about how evil Jerry Fallwell was and gave out grades based on how he felt about each student. He had/has tenure and is still there.

 

And I resent the podunk out of it.

[cathmom]

:iagree:

 

And in NC there is a cap on charter schools. Only100 charter schools may exist in this entire state. It's a travesty. I - and others in the state- are lobbying for change but the current Gov is not a fan of charters.

 

 

 

That is horrible! And I bet most of those 100 are centered around Raleigh and Charlotte, leaving the rest of the state stuck with horrible public schools and no options besides homeschooling.

[Virg]

My experience is that people who aren't going to school their children, don't. We are supposed to turn in a notice and test in 3rd, 5th, 8th and 10th. The people I know who don't want to be dedicated, aren't. They just don't report that their kids are homeschooling. I have never heard of one being in trouble for it. I am sure someone has been caught but I haven't heard of it. I think it is like a lot of laws. The people who obey them do, and the people the law was meant to be for, still don't follow it. lol

[Laura Corin]

If students are being tested individually on a written test and in an interview such as Ester Maria's kids are, if Good High School had a useless teacher, Good High School would freak out and boot the teacher when they realise the whole class got crappy marks.

 

This thread got a little confused: my challenge was not referring to Ester Maria's Italian example, but to the US standard of using transcripts for university entrance.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Rosie_0801]

This thread got a little confused: my challenge was not referring to Ester Maria's Italian example, but to the US standard of using transcripts for university entrance.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

 

 

I was just musing on how things could, possibly, hypothetically work. I don't have the political clout to reform the US education system. :D I can just ponder. You bring me to something I'd been wondering about, though; whether the credit system was a good one. It has pros and cons from where I'm sitting. I'm glad I don't have to do it though.

 

Rosie

[....]

Here's another example:

 

In one class we had to take an exam. When we received our graded exam papers, we were surprised at who had done well (the "slackers") and who had done poorly (the "honors" students).

 

It turned out that the teacher had graded the exams by deducting many point for every item answered incorrectly, BUT did not deduct ANY points for an item that was left unanswered.

 

So a student who had completed the test (a very poorly constructed test by any measure) would possibly receive a lower mark than a student who had only completed a portion, even less than half, of the exam.

 

There were students who had completed EVERY item, yet failed the test, because so many points were deducted for "wrong answers."

 

There were students who had barely made an attempt at doing the exam, but they passed because they were only graded on what they attempted.

 

 

 

YES! They were doing this at my daughter's school before we pulled our kids out. They were grading by how many questions the student answered! I remember standing outside, talking to a group of parents and this one lady was just irrate over this. It was hilarious. :lol: What a big load of *&^%. I had never heard of that "method" before - lol!

[Renee in NC]

YES! They were doing this at my daughter's school before we pulled our kids out. They were grading by how many questions the student answered! I remember standing outside, talking to a group of parents and this one lady was just irrate over this. It was hilarious. :lol: What a big load of *&^%. I had never heard of that "method" before - lol!

 

The SAT is sort of scored that way - you get 1 point for each right answer, 0 points for a wrong answer, and they subtract a quarter point for each wrong answer.

[cathmom]

I think there may be a cultural difference also WRT to oral exams. I only ever had a few oral exams in foreign language classes. The only oral exam I ever had resembling anything close to what Ester Maria is talking about was for my master's degree!

[Sahamamama]

The SAT is sort of scored that way - you get 1 point for each right answer, 0 points for a wrong answer, and they subtract a quarter point for each wrong answer.

 

Yes, the teacher in question graded something like this, only he subtracted many MORE points for an incorrect answer than he gave for a correct one. His explanation was that if you answered the question, you thought you knew the answer. The students that didn't answer KNEW they didn't know, so they were less arrogant. :001_huh:

[happi duck]

Having lived in regulated and non regulated states, the only benefit is that saying there are regulations (affidavits, records, set number of days, tests, evaluations, and portfolios) shuts people like her up and people are less "suspicious" of you. I find homeschooling in this regulated state to be more acceptable than in the non regulated state I lived in. But that is only these two states.

 

This is what we've experienced...people calm down once they decide you're not "getting away with something"

 

I remind people that we are a private school and that no one reports to the state that they've opted to send their children to the local Catholic school etc (at least in this state).

[Tammyla]

Zero, nada, not one charter school in my state.

 

:iagree:

 

And in NC there is a cap on charter schools. Only100 charter schools may exist in this entire state. It's a travesty. I - and others in the state- are lobbying for change but the current Gov is not a fan of charters.

 

 

[LisaKinVA]

But HOW? I still don't get. Give me concrete examples, okay? Maybe then I'll understand what you're all talking about and I seem to be missing. :)

 

Let's see... How about a 6th grade student that undertakes the task to write an historical play (albeit, a little fictionized) for her class to perform. Writes specific roles for each student, submits the play to the teacher, and has the teacher proclaim LOUDLY in front of the ENTIRE class...

 

"Why would ANYONE write a play about X?" "It has no merit, it is meaningless..." That's really a paraphrase, and the rant lasted more like 5 minutes, than 5 seconds. Instead of my play, we did the fable about tying the bell around the cat. And, my love of writing was crushed... I had a brief moment in high school in my geography class, but was still certain I couldn't write...until one of the most prominent Communication professors in my college praised me, LOUDLY and in front of the ENTIRE class about my thesis. He said he hoped I would go on to develop it more in graduate school -- because it was "that well done."

 

To this day, I am still in a bit of shock.

 

Kids are easily intimidated. I have been called "dumb" by teachers, (I am not), I have had teachers tell students that they were actually "smarter" than me IN FRONT OF US, because the student had a higher IQ score (we were both considered HG, and were separated by a few points). I have had teachers tell me on day 1 of class that I was going to receive a "B" -- and no matter how hard I worked, he always managed to give me a B (He was later brought up on charges of educational misconduct).

 

And, that is only a handful of examples in the various public schools I attended (I went to 11 different schools from K-12).

[FO4UR]

Yes, I expect it would be a better use of tax dollars and would lower most people's stress levels.

 

Dropping compulsory schooling would be a darn silly thing to do, though. Schooling didn't become compulsory only as a babysitting measure to get those lazy housewives out into the workforce. It may not have started this way, but this is how it functions *in practice*...though I'll not say b/c any housewives are lazy, more than likely they assume it's normal and expected to have a career divorced from their children. Still, the result is school=childcare and so parents care more about how many hours they can leave their kids than how those hours are used. Case in point: Wake County NC proposed having early release on Wednesdays once a month so teachers can get together and mentor each other in classroom performance. It reminded me of what I read about Asian math, and I was hopeful. It didn't pass. Childcare was THE issue.

 

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with requiring kids in their parents' education setting of choice from six to sixteen as it is here. I think what they are doing in school during those ten years could be done better, which is why I'm homeschooling. What do you really think would happen if people chose not to school their kids because they had that choice? What would happen if a LOT of people made that choice? Oh, there would be a lot of uneducated kids in the US. But, how is that different from what we have now.:001_huh: The real impact would be *in* the classroom, b/c we could seriously threaten removal from school for behavior issues and lack of work. The kids who were *in* the classroom would probably have a MUCH better education. What if the gov't also had a free (or subsidized based on income) childcare option after school? The hours could effectively mimic current ps hours, but would allow parents to choose that 1/2 day of "real" education and leave the babysitting hours for those who have no other choice. I think, many parents (who don't care a rip about their kids) will take the free childcare and the result for the kids would be no different. The result for the American child with parents who care would be drastically better.

 

Here, for the moment, all we have to do is send in a letter of intent, and providing no one dobs us into CPS, and CPS doesn't find anything wrong, we are fine. I'm not even sure if we have to do the standardized tests, Keptwoman and MelissaL would know. I'd be fine with a yearly visit from an inspector person, providing that person did not consider the PS curriculum to be the epitome of a good education and recognised that there were many ways educating well and that education is both a short and long term process. That person should expect to see medium to long term goals and a decent plan for achieving them; and if we are not making progress, should consider whether the child just needs more time, or if I need to read up on a different approach. I don't see anything wrong with this, and I see good in this, if there is a review process so I or the inspector, could get a second opinion. This needn't be argumentative. There is no reason why we should be enemies. We ought to remember we are interested in the same goal, that the children in question are making progress in their education. That means we are on the same team. If the inspector discovered gross neglect, such as no progress in most subjects, perhaps even a loss of skill, then I certainly think they should order the child to school. Unless the child had been terribly ill for months, then school couldn't fix that so there's no good reason to send them. I see nothing bad, except for our self esteem, to be told "I know you mean well, but your kid is bombing in this area and I need to see significant improvement by our next annual appointment." If the kid just needed time to mature, in most cases they'll have done it by then.

 

Rosie

 

Your last paragraph has lots of "providing that"'s and "If"'s....and that's the issue in the US. We are not provided with any sort of guarantee. We have seen the ps system fail again and again and again...we don't trust the system to be fair b/c well...it isn't.

 

To the bolded: many of us HS in the US b/c the system truly doesn't care one tiny bit if our kids are making progress in their education. I've not met any HSers who want to be the enemy to the ps system, but I have met many parents who yanked their dc after the ps system "fired the first shot."

 

I've also met some amazing teachers in the ps system. I'm stinkin' angry and sad over what they work in daily!:glare: I know some truly gifted teachers who truly CARE about each child, but their hands are tied in the ps system.

 

Now, I do think it's beneficial for HSers to have a pair of "outside eyes" to look at their child's progress. I do think it would be beneficial to have some basic standards (3R's K-3, and adding in basic content areas beyond) for all US students. The reason I will fight "tooth and nail" against any Nat'l Curric at this point is b/c I'm pretty sure it would be filled with a whole lot of nonsense with objectives that deviate from educating the children. Likewise, that pair of "outside eyes" that gives me some good constructive criticism needs to focus in on those basic goals of literacy and let the parents parent.

 

The US system is just sick. No amount of oversight from them is going to heal the failing HSers...it will just spread the viral infection to the ones who are well.

 

I am inspired by Ester Maria's posts. I think we can learn from her pov. Submitting to a failing system doesn't make the system healthy though...I wish it were that easy.

[FO4UR]

But HOW? I still don't get. Give me concrete examples, okay? Maybe then I'll understand what you're all talking about and I seem to be missing. :)

 

I'll give an example from the other side of the coin.

 

I took Latin in high school (3.5 years worth). I passed that class (with A's) by knowing how the teacher wrote and graded her tests. I didn't know Latin. We had a major project one year. It was 20% of our entire grade. Some of the projects were simply amazing, and the teacher rarely gave anything higher than a B for this project. I procrastinated...I started *the morning of* the project. I showed up with a poster board of musical notation and explained the Latin terms (for REAL:tongue_smilie:), and then sang a song in Latin. I didn't even KNOW the song:blush::blink:, but my teacher couldn't read music and I did know enough Latin to pronounce things correctly. I did read the Latin translation, which was given in the sheet music. I literally stood up and "winged it." I got FULL CREDIT!:svengo: I think I was the only one...and I know I was the only one who deserved to fail.

 

I passed calculus and physics too...though not on the merit of my voice, but perhaps I could have gotten A's in those too if the teachers were more musically inclined...:lol:

[Ester Maria]

And, my love of writing was crushed...

Because of a single professor's comment?! :confused:

 

At the beginning of the year when they tested your general physical shape in PE lessons, it included measuring how tall and how heavy you are. In front of everyone (of the same sex; girls and boys were separated). With numbers told loud. Was I supposed to get crushed at the "Do your parents feed you at home at all?!" comments received?

 

Most of the written exams were handed to us, when corrected, with the mark being told loud. Often with comments. And if you wrote some kind of a funny blunder, of course that it was read out loud, for everyone's enjoyment. But we didn't get offended at it, it was nearly fun. :D I wrote a lot of nonsense over the years too.

Interrogations (= oral exams) during the year were frequent, often unannounced and perfectly public: the situation in which the professor asks you to come in front of the whole class and examines you on the content of the lessons. Need I mention that very often they called us out to spite us? He doesn't like you, oops, "accidently" he calls you even though half the class hasn't been interrogated yet, and you've been twice. You have the wrong last name, oops, "accidently" you get interrogated three times per semester and not once, because he doesn't like people your parents are associated with in society. You looked at him the wrong way, your name called out.

 

And regarding comments... Several of the professors over the years were a bother and knew exactly how to comment something nasty for it to appear as a joke. Once I didn't know who built some church when asked, so the professor nonchallantly commented, "But of course, I should have asked somebody else; yours are Christ killers, so of course that they didn't teach you that at home." A girl who moved in from province was told (by the same guy) that she'll never really fit in and be Roman, or understand Rome as a phenomenon, because she doesn't have it in her genes (!), not being from there. And once he, full of contempt, told this boy (who didn't really know on oral exam, so he failed him) that he should better look into quitting school and working in agriculture, because "the books are not for you, my boy, you're obviously not made to learn". The boy is a doctor today, very successful and accomplished - he certainly didn't break because of one such odd comment once in eight or ninth grade.

 

And yet, see, I'm not traumatized by any of it (even though that particular guy really had some issues from time to time - he didn't really fit with the rest of the professors who were "normal"), and I managed to have good grades. I don't think my former classmates are traumatized either - we laughed back then most of the time, and now looking back we laugh again. Do I think such things were okay? No. But, were our psyches damaged beyond repair because of a random idiot or two that happened to teach us? Certainly no. Even our parents made sure we know not to take every adult seriosuly at all times.

 

But, I digress. Those are classroom situations - what I'm wondering is, actually, how can they intimidate you on an exam you take once a year. Time is limited, you have written your written part of the exam, you come in for the oral exam. They don't have time to comment on things or distract you, because they're just interested in checking what you know. How can they possibly intimidate you, if you know the content that's been agreed upon in advance?

[Rosie_0801]

Because of a single professor's comment?! :confused:

 

A single professor's comment won't crush someone if they have supportive people they respect in most other places of their life. Not everyone has that.

 

National characters are a generalisation, of course, but there is some truth to them. We're not Italian, remember. ;)

 

Rosie

[LisaKinVA]

Because of a single professor's comment?! :confused:

 

I'm simply going to say "apples and oranges." Ester Maria, you are not me -- and I am not you. Your parents were not mine, nor were your home and school situations either -- and in the same vein, mine were not yours. It feels as if you are looking to explain away how anything impacted anyone else -- because it does not apply to you. Simply because you would not have reacted that way, does not mean it did not occur, or that the experience is somehow invalid. And while, I could go on and provide additional examples of any number of things which contrast strikingly to you -- they would simply be more "apples and oranges."

 

And, who said it was a random "odd comment?" This teacher made this her pattern. This was not a random comment, this incident was a speech, and not the only one. I was either ignored (never called on), or publicly ridiculed. Additionally, this was not an assignment -- it was a personal endeavor I did outside of class and of my own volition. I did it because I thought it would be fun for the class to do our own play -- something unique to our class. At the time I wrote it, every member of the class was excited about performing in it.... until that speech. Did I mention I was the "new girl" again that year? I was finally finding my place socially in the classroom... until that speech. All the other students knew each other before entering that classroom -- some for years. No one knew me. She could (and did) shape the entire classroom's opinion of me. I was isolated. I *lived* for band, lunch, and tutoring, because they got me out of that room, and away from her.

 

It was mental, verbal and emotional abuse for ten very long months.

 

But, I digress -- those classroom situations -- in which I have one teacher all day -- a teacher who set themselves up to utterly disprove of anything I did, or anything I thought was good or correct become wrong -- yes, they could intimidate me on a test -- the cock of the head, the over-the-glasses glare, the tone of the voice, the snide snicker after an answer... these are verbal and non-verbal cues of ridicule, disdain, and create an inference of "wrong." I probably would have come out fine on the other end...but if this test was solely in the hands of this very same one person, I shudder. After all, that teacher would have had an entire year to "break me down mentally." I am certain, that a person as nefarious as she, would have made it her mission to do just that. Not having the same support system as you -- she probably would have succeeded.

 

In your situations, the teacher more or less was an equal opportunity jerk. Your class acknowledged it, and comforted each other.

 

Was my psyche "damaged beyond repair?" No... but it also didn't just "bounce back" either...kind of hard to do that when you're on-your-own, and don't have much of a support system -- and people think it's either "all in your head," or that you must "somehow be asking for it." :tongue_smilie:

[mommaduck]

A single professor's comment won't crush someone if they have supportive people they respect in most other places of their life. Not everyone has that.

 

National characters are a generalisation, of course, but there is some truth to them. We're not Italian, remember. ;)

 

Rosie

Precisely.

[cathmom]

It was mental, verbal and emotional abuse for ten very long months.

 

 

 

:grouphug:

 

My dh experienced the same thing in fifth grade. His teacher abused him the entire year. He never told his mom because she was a single mom who worked and he didn't want to trouble her. She found out at the end of the school year from another mom, who told her, "My daughter comes home every day in tears because of what the teacher does to your son."

 

This really negatively impacted his education.

[LisaKinVA]

:grouphug:

 

My dh experienced the same thing in fifth grade. His teacher abused him the entire year. He never told his mom because she was a single mom who worked and he didn't want to trouble her. She found out at the end of the school year from another mom, who told her, "My daughter comes home every day in tears because of what the teacher does to your son."

 

This really negatively impacted his education.

 

I can imagine. :grouphug:

[Amy in TX]

And regarding comments... Several of the professors over the years were a bother and knew exactly how to comment something nasty for it to appear as a joke. Once I didn't know who built some church when asked, so the professor nonchallantly commented, "But of course, I should have asked somebody else; yours are Christ killers, so of course that they didn't teach you that at home." A girl who moved in from province was told (by the same guy) that she'll never really fit in and be Roman, or understand Rome as a phenomenon, because she doesn't have it in her genes (!), not being from there. And once he, full of contempt, told this boy (who didn't really know on oral exam, so he failed him) that he should better look into quitting school and working in agriculture, because "the books are not for you, my boy, you're obviously not made to learn". The boy is a doctor today, very successful and accomplished - he certainly didn't break because of one such odd comment once in eight or ninth grade.

 

And yet, see, I'm not traumatized by any of it...

 

This type of thing must really be cultural. Because I am just SHUDDERING at every one of these incidents, and wondering, how can mature adults in positions of authority possibly think these are appropriate things to say to children?

 

And yet, I think my dh (who was raised in Pakistan) would have the same reaction as you, Ester--that these things are not okay, but (shrug) they happen. He's told me a few stories of what seem to me bizarrely unprofessional remarks/behaviors on the part of teachers and doctors when he was growing up, that he actually chuckles over.

 

Are we Americans just thin-skinned? :tongue_smilie: Are we products of the whole PC movement (I have the impression that this kind of thing was more common here, too, a couple of generations ago). You seem (and I mean this as a compliment) fairly tough-skinned, but my dh is not, particularly.

 

If this is common teaching behavior in Europe, I wish we could have an educational system combining the European academic rigor with the American attentiveness to kids' emotional vulnerability to adults.

 

Amy :)

[Lolly]

Because of a single professor's comment?! :confused:

 

At the beginning of the year when they tested your general physical shape in PE lessons, it included measuring how tall and how heavy you are. In front of everyone (of the same sex; girls and boys were separated). With numbers told loud. Was I supposed to get crushed at the "Do your parents feed you at home at all?!" comments received?

 

Most of the written exams were handed to us, when corrected, with the mark being told loud. Often with comments. And if you wrote some kind of a funny blunder, of course that it was read out loud, for everyone's enjoyment. But we didn't get offended at it, it was nearly fun. :D I wrote a lot of nonsense over the years too.

Interrogations (= oral exams) during the year were frequent, often unannounced and perfectly public: the situation in which the professor asks you to come in front of the whole class and examines you on the content of the lessons. Need I mention that very often they called us out to spite us? He doesn't like you, oops, "accidently" he calls you even though half the class hasn't been interrogated yet, and you've been twice. You have the wrong last name, oops, "accidently" you get interrogated three times per semester and not once, because he doesn't like people your parents are associated with in society. You looked at him the wrong way, your name called out.

 

And regarding comments... Several of the professors over the years were a bother and knew exactly how to comment something nasty for it to appear as a joke. Once I didn't know who built some church when asked, so the professor nonchallantly commented, "But of course, I should have asked somebody else; yours are Christ killers, so of course that they didn't teach you that at home." A girl who moved in from province was told (by the same guy) that she'll never really fit in and be Roman, or understand Rome as a phenomenon, because she doesn't have it in her genes (!), not being from there. And once he, full of contempt, told this boy (who didn't really know on oral exam, so he failed him) that he should better look into quitting school and working in agriculture, because "the books are not for you, my boy, you're obviously not made to learn". The boy is a doctor today, very successful and accomplished - he certainly didn't break because of one such odd comment once in eight or ninth grade.

 

And yet, see, I'm not traumatized by any of it (even though that particular guy really had some issues from time to time - he didn't really fit with the rest of the professors who were "normal"), and I managed to have good grades. I don't think my former classmates are traumatized either - we laughed back then most of the time, and now looking back we laugh again. Do I think such things were okay? No. But, were our psyches damaged beyond repair because of a random idiot or two that happened to teach us? Certainly no. Even our parents made sure we know not to take every adult seriosuly at all times.

 

But, I digress. Those are classroom situations - what I'm wondering is, actually, how can they intimidate you on an exam you take once a year. Time is limited, you have written your written part of the exam, you come in for the oral exam. They don't have time to comment on things or distract you, because they're just interested in checking what you know. How can they possibly intimidate you, if you know the content that's been agreed upon in advance?

 

I think you got a single professor's comment because you asked for specific examples. It would be my guess that this was not a single comment but just one example. Many times children who one adult pick on are picked on over and over by others also. Just something in the personality. Your personality may be one that tends to stop it or repels that type of action from coming your way. It may just be that you have the ability to turn off the comments and not worry about them. It would be great if everyone were wired like that, wouldn't it? But, they aren't. Some people cannot stop it from getting under their skin. Some people feel lessoned by being told over and over that their work and thoughts are worthless and stupid. Some people don't have the ability to just shrug it off. It is just the way they are wired. They can't just man up and get over it.

 

Now, what if that professor had the ability to decide that your child was no longer allowed to homeschool? What is to stop them?

[Sahamamama]

This type of thing must really be cultural. Because I am just SHUDDERING at every one of these incidents, and wondering, how can mature adults in positions of authority possibly think these are appropriate things to say to children?

 

And yet, I think my dh (who was raised in Pakistan) would have the same reaction as you, Ester--that these things are not okay, but (shrug) they happen. He's told me a few stories of what seem to me bizarrely unprofessional remarks/behaviors on the part of teachers and doctors when he was growing up, that he actually chuckles over.

 

 

Yes, this. :iagree: My husband's parents emigrated here from Egypt a year before my husband was born. He grew up in California's public schools, but THEY tell stories about school in Egypt! Their tales sound just like Ester Maria's (worse, actually). I listen and think, "Why didn't the whole village rise up in protest? Why did the parents of these children send their children back the next day?"

 

But, of course, the teacher is the TEACHER. I think that teachers are more highly regarded in some cultures -- less "touchable" in some ways. Not that they have tenure, like US teachers might have, but that teachers outside the US (in some cases) are able to "get away" with more, simply by virtue of being a teacher.

 

In Egypt, to hear my in-laws tell it, the teachers were so strict and autocratic, sometimes to the point of being what most Americans would consider abusive (psychologically and/or physically). Pinching, hitting, caning, kicking, strapping, slapping, threatening, yelling, pushing, pulling by the hair or ear, punishing, shaming, shunning, encouraging others to bully one targeted student, labeling the student (stupid, lazy, dumb, "garbage-picker") -- the teachers did all this and more. Apparently, if you believe Wikipedia, this is still happening there:

 

A 1998 study found that physical punishment is used extensively by teachers in Egypt to punish behavior they regard as unacceptable--around 80% of the boys and 60% of the girls by teachers using their hands, sticks, straps, shoes, and kicks. The most common reported injuries were bumps and contusions; wounds, fractures, loss of consciousness and concussions were less common.

 

Wouldn't this intimidate most children? It would me. :crying:

[Ester Maria]

This type of thing must really be cultural. Because I am just SHUDDERING at every one of these incidents, and wondering, how can mature adults in positions of authority possibly think these are appropriate things to say to children?

In my case, those really were exceptions; and they were often told the way that they appeared as a joke. I guess that pretty much everyone had a professor or two of the kind for a while, but the vast majority were completely normal people. :)

Are we Americans just thin-skinned? :tongue_smilie: Are we products of the whole PC movement (I have the impression that this kind of thing was more common here, too, a couple of generations ago). You seem (and I mean this as a compliment) fairly tough-skinned, but my dh is not, particularly.

Hate to say it, but yes, you really are thin-skinned, on the whole. I still love you, though. :)

But sometimes I wish I could just talk, normally, with a person without all the layers of self-imposed PC and disclaimers when doing so. Like, openly saying, "No, this is wrong; you don't know this content. Let me correct you." rather than "Well, one might look at it that way [when one might NOT], but... You might have noticed some other things in the book too which contradict it [like, a WHOLE BOOK]... A good try, though! [nope, a terrible try] Would you like to try again? [nope, since you showed you don't know the material AT ALL]" :lol:

 

P.S. I'm not tough-skinned, I'm one of the more fragile people I know. I get upset easily, but I'm not easily intimidated on an exam situaton since it's something that I've been exposed to since first grade. But my kids don't either, and they have exams once or twice per year - of course that during that once a year they see them they won't have time to comment anything nasty even if they wanted as they have to focus on getting them examined. That's, I guess, why I find it so hard to grasp that why would a child suffer emotionally from yearly exams.

If this is common teaching behavior in Europe, I wish we could have an educational system combining the European academic rigor with the American attentiveness to kids' emotional vulnerability to adults.

It's not common. ;) But they ARE a whole lot more open than what you're used to (with all the public situations of oral exams, public comments of how well or bad you did, etc.), though they do keep in mind that they're working with children. The VAST majority of people are professional, correct, even relaxed and thus things happen in a good atmosphere. Edited September 12, 2010 by Ester Maria

[stripe]

Are we Americans just thin-skinned? :tongue_smilie: Are we products of the whole PC movement (I have the impression that this kind of thing was more common here, too, a couple of generations ago). You seem (and I mean this as a compliment) fairly tough-skinned, but my dh is not, particularly.

 

I had an English teacher in 7th grade (at a prestigious school) who insulted us on a daily basis, usually by calling us "lazy." I think my mother complained but no one at the school cared. Apparently he was too holy to discipline. In fact, on a whim, I googled his name, and found a brief bio on a homeschooling supply site lauding his skills! Apparently he's won tons of national awards -- ACK!

 

I think as a culture we Americans hate to be corrected, even if we're wrong. However, enjoying being insulted is another matter. I think, frankly, this is why so many people on here are so upset -- we (as a culture) can't STAND being told what to do, on any issue. There have been some threads on the general board about how mandating seatbelts is so awful and so forth. This is a strain of thought in our culture.

[FaithManor]

Yes, I do think Americans as a general culture can be very thin skinned. The 70s', 80's, and 90's comprised the "don't hurt Jonny's feelings" self esteem movement in education. So children became increasingly told that every paltry effort was good, it became p.c. to not give constructive criticism, etc. Children did not learn to cope and now are much more fragile.

 

Additionally, I think there is culture of professionalism that Ester Maria describes that doesn't exist here. Freedom of Speech in America has been taken to the extreme of "freedom to demean, demoralize, insult, bully, and verbally abuse" and is exercised by a whole lot of individuals that should be "professional" and keep their comments under control and appropriate to the situation. Therefore, on the other hand, though fragile, a large number of children/adults in the U.S. have suffered some pretty extreme intimidation both physical and verbal and therefore are unwilling as homeschoolers to expose their children to the insanity they endured as children.

 

Because of these two extremes, the U.S. being particularly prone to picking extremes instead of the middle ground, many homeschoolers are really pretty scared of losing ground to mandatory testing, oral testing, children meeting alone with "educational professionals", etc....we see a tremendous risk to our children's mental well being.

 

Oh, and here is another instance of the insanity of standardized testing in the U.S......for the 2002 Leap tests (Louisiana achievement tests) teachers were advised by the publisher of the exams that the tests that year would be so intense that they should be prepared for 5-10% of their students in the elementary ages to vomit from the stress! The publisher advised the teachers to NOT attend to the sick child's needs during the exam so as not to disrupt the classroom but to make the child sit in their own vomit until the testing time had expired and then just shake off as much as possible from the test booklet, place it in a gallon baggie, and send it in to be graded! No joke, a young child was expected to sit in their own vomit without so much as a show of compassion from their teacher because it was more important for the timed test to continue than to care for the child. (I got this from an official copy of "teacher advisements" sent to me several years ago by a teacher friend in New Orleans. I'd post the email but I deleted it a while back because my saved message box was so full.) Also, it was recommended that if another test was scheduled to immediately follow the incident, to not dismiss the sick child to the restroom to clean up because this would inspire others kids to want a break as well and children needed to be kept in "testing mode" uninterrupted.

 

I think that public education has gone completely Bonkers in America.

Faith

[Renee in NC]

I had an English teacher in 7th grade (at a prestigious school) who insulted us on a daily basis, usually by calling us "lazy." I think my mother complained but no one at the school cared. Apparently he was too holy to discipline. In fact, on a whim, I googled his name, and found a brief bio on a homeschooling supply site lauding his skills! Apparently he's won tons of national awards -- ACK!

 

I think as a culture we Americans hate to be corrected, even if we're wrong. However, enjoying being insulted is another matter. I think, frankly, this is why so many people on here are so upset -- we (as a culture) can't STAND being told what to do, on any issue. There have been some threads on the general board about how mandating seatbelts is so awful and so forth. This is a strain of thought in our culture.

 

I didn't know that lazy was insulting - I tell my older dc that they are lazy when, well, they are being lazy!:tongue_smilie:

 

I agree about the cultural abhorrence of being told what to do.;)

[stripe]

I didn't know that lazy was insulting - I tell my older dc that they are lazy when, well, they are being lazy!:tongue_smilie:

When it is screamed at an entire class as a matter of course on a daily basis, for an entire school year, OR it is used as the term of address (with another word) to the entire class, then it may feel to those students as if they are being attacked, not being inspired to work harder. I never saw any evidence given as to why we were lazy, either; it was just the term of address.

[Amy in TX]

Hate to say it, but yes, you really are thin-skinned, on the whole.

 

Knew that was coming! :D

 

 

I still love you, though. :)

 

 

Thanks--we still love you too. :)

 

I wonder what you'd make of this book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Europeans-Stuart-Miller/dp/1562612948/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284324574&sr=1-1

 

 

Amy