These are the type of people who give Christians a bad name.

[spradlin02]

Can you believe this garbage? It drives me crazy when I hear of people like this associating themselves with Christianity.

 

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045

[Remudamom]

Oh don't let's start this up again. Every bunch has got bad apples.

[spradlin02]

Oh don't let's start this up again. Every bunch has got bad apples.

 

Certainly, and I'm not condemning Christians. Just jerks like this. I have a lot of friends that are Christian, and my kids are at a Christian camp as I type this, and I go to an Episcopal Church (sometimes).

[tiffijo1]

Very sad..

[Halcyon]

Can you believe this garbage? It drives me crazy when I hear of people like this associating themselves with Christianity.

 

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100819/ARTICLES/8191045

 

 

That's terrible. :(

[TXMomof4]

My mom and I came up with a new acronym last night. We've all heard of RINOs (Republicans in name only). We came up with CHINOs (Christians in Name only). Not as a judgement on people who make mistakes, but people who proudly proclaim themselves Christians when they are hate-filled, intolerant, unloving people.

[Skadi]

I'm an atheist, so I don't have a dog in this fight...but why is it that people wring their hands and murmur condemnations of Christians doing something so mild as burning Korans while Muslims are actively persecuting and even killing Christians?

 

Here's one of many articles to light your fire. Pun intended. When was the last time Christians stormed a mosque and murdered its inhabitants?

[Remudamom]

I'm an atheist, so I don't have a dog in this fight...but why is it that people wring their hands and murmur condemnations of Christians doing something so mild as burning Korans while Muslims are actively persecuting and even killing Christians?

 

Here's one of many articles to light your fire. Pun intended. When was the last time Christians stormed a mosque and murdered its inhabitants?

 

Ah ha.........someone who gets it.

[Abigail4476]

These people are mild compared to the Westboro Baptist Church. There's a documentary available [on Netflix instant play] called "Fall From Grace" that is revealing and frightening. (And it will really make you mad!)

 

Misguided activists vs. scary zealots.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Does anyone else find it ironic that they have the word "dove" in their name - a symbol of peace? Not very Christlike if you ask me.

[Audrey]

These people are mild compared to the Westboro Baptist Church. There's a documentary available [on Netflix instant play] called "Fall From Grace" that is revealing and frightening. (And it will really make you mad!)

 

Misguided activists vs. scary zealots.

 

 

I don't have a dog in this fight either, but I don't think Christians should have to keep apologizing for Phelps and his gang of loonies. Even *I* know they're quite obviously not representative of Christians.

[Nakia]

I don't have a dog in this fight either, but I don't think Christians should have to keep apologizing for Phelps and his gang of loonies. Even *I* know they're quite obviously not representative of Christians.

 

Thank you for saying that Audrey.

[Guest ME-Mommy]

My mom and I came up with a new acronym last night. We've all heard of RINOs (Republicans in name only). We came up with CHINOs (Christians in Name only). Not as a judgement on people who make mistakes, but people who proudly proclaim themselves Christians when they are hate-filled, intolerant, unloving people.

 

I like it...my pastor spoke last night on the difference between "Christianity" and "Religiousity"...two very different things.

 

...but why is it that people wring their hands and murmur condemnations of Christians doing something so mild as burning Korans while Muslims are actively persecuting and even killing Christians?

 

Here's one of many articles to light your fire. Pun intended. When was the last time Christians stormed a mosque and murdered its inhabitants?

 

Ah ha.........someone who gets it.

 

:iagree:

[Abigail4476]

I don't have a dog in this fight either, but I don't think Christians should have to keep apologizing for Phelps and his gang of loonies. Even *I* know they're quite obviously not representative of Christians.

 

I don't think Christians should have to apologize for extremists, either. I do think that people who dislike Christians use extremists to malign those who are of a more even keel.

 

As a Christian, though, I do find their existence to be as annoying as an elusive fly buzzing around my kitchen. I just want to find a flyswatter and squish them. Which, I admit, isn't a very peaceable thought. :D So I acknowledge their right to free speech and celebrate the existence of groups like the Patriot Guard Riders.

[akmommy]

Does anyone else find it ironic that they have the word "dove" in their name - a symbol of peace?

 

I wondered about that, too.

[milovany]

I'm an atheist, so I don't have a dog in this fight...but why is it that people wring their hands and murmur condemnations of Christians doing something so mild as burning Korans while Muslims are actively persecuting and even killing Christians?

 

Here's one of many articles to light your fire. Pun intended. When was the last time Christians stormed a mosque and murdered its inhabitants?

 

Thanks for being willing to submit this post.

[wulfbourne]

I don't have a dog in this fight either, but I don't think Christians should have to keep apologizing for Phelps and his gang of loonies. Even *I* know they're quite obviously not representative of Christians.

 

I question if they believe half of what they say. After reading this I'm inclined to believe they are a money making scam.

 

http://kanewj.com/wbc/

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Very good link, Wulfbourne.

 

I would be willing to go to the Dove "church" and throw their bibles into the bonfire. I'm sure THAT would get them all "fired up".

[Nakia]

Very good link, Wulfbourne.

 

I would be willing to go to the Dove "church" and throw their bibles into the bonfire. I'm sure THAT would get them all "fired up".

 

Now, now, Cyndi, what would your husband's mother-in-law think of that kind of talk?????

[justamouse]

every religious group is made up of a spectrum and a loud, obnoxious minority that doesn't represent the majority. I call them whackadoos.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Now, now, Cyndi, what would your husband's mother-in-law think of that kind of talk?????

 

 

She's at one of her cult meetings as we "speak". Perhaps you should text her and tell on me?

[Nakia]

She's at one of her cult meetings as we "speak". Perhaps you should text her and tell on me?

 

I'll get my mom to do it. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[OnTheBrink]

She's at one of her cult meetings as we "speak". Perhaps you should text her and tell on me?

 

My MIL is part of the same cult as yours. Think they know each other??

[Ravin]

I find the whole book-burning--any books--incredibly noxious. Maybe even evil. I don't understand why people condemn the mainstream of any religion for the acts of the extreme fringes of it. That's true of this fringe group giving Christianity a bad name, and of their act in burning Qu'rans (which they probably bought, thus putting money in the hands of Muslims somewhere), as if the extremists who carried out 9/11 were representative of what most of Islam is about.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm an atheist, so I don't have a dog in this fight...but why is it that people wring their hands and murmur condemnations of Christians doing something so mild as burning Korans while Muslims are actively persecuting and even killing Christians?

 

Here's one of many articles to light your fire. Pun intended. When was the last time Christians stormed a mosque and murdered its inhabitants?

 

We've done more than our fair share of that sort of thing. As luck would have it much of Christianity these days seems to happen in fairly stable and wealthy nations so it shouldn't be a big surprise that we're not out burning and killing. But we've killed piles of people in the past. Enough that I don't think comparisons in the violence between Islam and Christianity point to anything more then the good fortune of many modern Christians to live where they do.

[Rivka]

I'm an atheist, so I don't have a dog in this fight...but why is it that people wring their hands and murmur condemnations of Christians doing something so mild as burning Korans while Muslims are actively persecuting and even killing Christians?

 

Here's one of many articles to light your fire. Pun intended. When was the last time Christians stormed a mosque and murdered its inhabitants?

 

When I read about something horrifying, I don't stop to ask myself, "Now, let me see, is this the worst thing anyone has EVER done? If it isn't, I guess I shouldn't say anything."

 

I am an American who is proud of the civil rights and liberties generations of Americans have fought and died to defend. I find it loathsome to see other Americans defend oppression and intolerance on the grounds that Middle Eastern dictatorships do it so we should too.

 

"Not the worst people in the world" might be good enough for you, but it isn't good enough for me.

[emubird]

I'm an atheist, so I don't have a dog in this fight...but why is it that people wring their hands and murmur condemnations of Christians doing something so mild as burning Korans while Muslims are actively persecuting and even killing Christians?

 

Here's one of many articles to light your fire. Pun intended. When was the last time Christians stormed a mosque and murdered its inhabitants?

 

Why? Because I have very little influence over what happens in other countries. I may not have very much here in the US either, but at least here I can vote and speak out against lunacy. Not only that, but if we don't speak out against hate, we may very well end up with a country where it is acceptable to kill people because we don't happen to like the way they do things, even if at the moment it's just a little book burning.

 

That's why.

 

And why is that you seem to think that people in the US who speak out against the hate filled messages here, don't find these atrocities in other countries reprehensible as well?

 

By the way, you might want to watch this Olbermann piece if you want a bit of perspective:

http://www.politicususa.com/en/olbermann-ground-zero-mosque

Although this is about the mosque in NY issue (which he points out isn't even a mosque), he also reports on a bombing incident at a mosque in FL:

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/fbi-finds-pipe-bomb-used-in-blast-at-fla-mosque/19475001

Why did this bomb not kill everyone inside? Apparently because the bomber was an idiot. But the next one may not be an idiot, and then you will have an article about people getting killed in mosques right here in the US that you can post. Citing killings in Christian churches in other countries won't be such a convincing argument then (if it ever was).

 

Use it while you can, I guess.

[asta]

Thanks for being willing to submit this post.

 

I was scanning this thread and had to do a double take on this response.

 

I always find it interesting that Islam does not translate as "peace", it translates as "submission".

 

Explains a lot, actually.

 

 

asta

[Mejane]

I don't think Christians should have to apologize for extremists, either.

 

Not apologize, but decry LOUDLY. Simple disassociation won't cut it. Mainstream Muslims need to do the same. Until the mainstream stands up and shouts as loudly as the radicals, those crazies will always get the attention, which is exactly what they want.

[wulfbourne]

Not apologize, but decry LOUDLY. Simple disassociation won't cut it. Mainstream Muslims need to do the same. Until the mainstream stands up and shouts as loudly as the radicals, those crazies will always get the attention, which is exactly what they want.

 

No matter how loudly the mainstream shouts though, they won't get the attention. Perception in this country is driven by the media. The media is driven by ratings. They get better ratings by focusing on the crazy than on the normal.

[Mimm]

I'm an atheist, so I don't have a dog in this fight...but why is it that people wring their hands and murmur condemnations of Christians doing something so mild as burning Korans while Muslims are actively persecuting and even killing Christians?

 

Here's one of many articles to light your fire. Pun intended. When was the last time Christians stormed a mosque and murdered its inhabitants?

 

That is a good point, and obviously those actions should be condemned much more than a simple book burning. However, with regard to the book burning, I think it's so upsetting because it doesn't accomplish anything. It's not a ritual that glorifies God, it's not an outreach that help the community, it's not even a way to honor the people that died that day. It's nothing more than an expression of hate. And it's deliberately offensive for no good purpose.

[TXMomof4]

That is a good point, and obviously those actions should be condemned much more than a simple book burning. However, with regard to the book burning, I think it's so upsetting because it doesn't accomplish anything. It's not a ritual that glorifies God, it's not an outreach that help the community, it's not even a way to honor the people that died that day. It's nothing more than an expression of hate. And it's deliberately offensive for no good purpose.

 

:iagree:

[Laurie4b]

Why give them publicity by posting it here? In the article, even the mayor calls them "a tiny fringe group" that is an "embarrassment to their community."

[Kathleen in VA]

These people are mild compared to the Westboro Baptist Church. There's a documentary available [on Netflix instant play] called "Fall From Grace" that is revealing and frightening. (And it will really make you mad!)

 

Misguided activists vs. scary zealots.

 

Ds21 and I just had a conversation about these folks last night. He said they are the modern-day pharisees. They show no love. They miss the whole point of Christianity.

 

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing." I Corinthians 13:1-3

[Laurie4b]

Very good link, Wulfbourne.

 

I would be willing to go to the Dove "church" and throw their bibles into the bonfire. I'm sure THAT would get them all "fired up".

 

 

Hmm.

[Caitilin]

We've done more than our fair share of that sort of thing. As luck would have it much of Christianity these days seems to happen in fairly stable and wealthy nations so it shouldn't be a big surprise that we're not out burning and killing. But we've killed piles of people in the past. Enough that I don't think comparisons in the violence between Islam and Christianity point to anything more then the good fortune of many modern Christians to live where they do.

 

:iagree:completely.

[Stacy in NJ]

We've done more than our fair share of that sort of thing. As luck would have it much of Christianity these days seems to happen in fairly stable and wealthy nations so it shouldn't be a big surprise that we're not out burning and killing. But we've killed piles of people in the past. Enough that I don't think comparisons in the violence between Islam and Christianity point to anything more then the good fortune of many modern Christians to live where they do.

 

This isn't accurate. While most post-industrial "wealthy" nations are for the most part Christian, Christianity is speading exponentially in many poverty riddled countries. Throughout Asia, Africa, and Central America Christianity is becoming more wide spread and culturally acceptable.

 

Perhaps the the fact that modern Christians seem less violent is a feature not a bug of Christianity?

[Mrs Mungo]

Ds21 and I just had a conversation about these folks last night. He said they are the modern-day pharisees. They show no love. They miss the whole point of Christianity.

 

 

I agree. I also think there are people who are the *same way* when it comes to the constitution.

 

 

"The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word 'Jesus Christ,' so that it should read, 'a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;' the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

 

-Thomas Jefferson

[Tea Time]

We've done more than our fair share of that sort of thing. As luck would have it much of Christianity these days seems to happen in fairly stable and wealthy nations so it shouldn't be a big surprise that we're not out burning and killing. But we've killed piles of people in the past. Enough that I don't think comparisons in the violence between Islam and Christianity point to anything more then the good fortune of many modern Christians to live where they do.

 

Not luck and it did not just "seem to happen," it DID happen. The values and principles you find in Christianity absolutely PRODUCE those kinds of results to the end and extent that they are practiced, which is of course limited and imperfectly.

[Gooblink]

I did some research a while back in answer to the claim that religion is responsible for most of the atrocities committed against humanity. I fully expected to find numbers that concur with that common opinion. However, what I found surprised me. These are two sites I found this morning with stats; I'd have to dig out the sources I found on my own (I think I posted them on my website several months ago).

 

Bottom line: Religion is not to blame, people are to blame.

 

Historical stats on atrocities committed in the name of religion:

 

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atrocities.html

 

Historical death tolls for wars, atrocities, massacres:

 

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

 

Essay:

http://www.newscholars.com/papers/Killing,%20Christianity,%20and%20Atheism.pdf

[Gooblink]

Perhaps the the fact that modern Christians seem less violent is a feature not a bug of Christianity?

 

I love that!

 

For those who believe we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit...that would make a lot of sense.

[TravelingChris]

I an not one for burning books (or actually nuch of anything since I an an asthnatic :001_smile:). I also think the nosque in NYC should be built in another place.

[Greta]

why is it that people wring their hands and murmur condemnations of Christians doing something so mild as burning Korans while Muslims are actively persecuting and even killing Christians?

 

Just a couple of days ago my dh was telling me about a news article he read where a man had been fined $500 for leaving his dog in a car to die of heat exhaustion. What upset my dh as much as the story (we are big dog lovers here) was the comments posted below the article, and how many people thought it was ridiculous to have laws protecting mere dogs and that the life of a dog wasn't worth $500. My comment was that the kind of person who would thoughtlessly, carelessly leave a dog in a car in the middle of summer is the same kind of person who would leave their kid in the car in the middle of summer. He agreed completely, and we talked about how cruelty to animals is linked to violent crimes. He also said that at one time New York City's mayor (forget which one) had a policy of only going after the worst criminals, thinking that the focus should be on the most serious offenses, but as a result ALL crime increased, including the violent crimes that they were really going after. But when the next mayor initiated a "zero tolerance" policy so that even minor crimes like littering were prosecuted, all crimes, even violent ones, began to decrease.

 

This is my long-winded way of saying that the answer to your question is that tolerance of what is wrong will lead to more and more serious wrongs.

 

The kind of person who will burn sacred books in anger and hatred can become the kind of person who will burn *people* in anger and hatred under the right circumstances - I should say wrong circumstances.

 

That's my "secular" answer. My answer as a Christian is that it's very disheartening to see Christians acting so hatefully when Christ commanded us to love our enemies - or in other words, to have no enemies.

 

ETA: And in case in needs pointing out (though it probably doesn't) what I've said above should in no way be taken to mean that I am not troubled, saddened, and even sickened by what is happening to Christians in other parts of the world. I'm only saying that we can take a stand against both, because both are wrong.

Edited August 20, 2010 by GretaLynne

[Melinda in VT]

Not luck and it did not just "seem to happen," it DID happen. The values and principles you find in Christianity absolutely PRODUCE those kinds of results to the end and extent that they are practiced, which is of course limited and imperfectly.

 

Many religions can claim this. When their values and principles are practiced, the world is more peaceful and productive.

 

If you compare a relatively good period for one religion with a relatively bad period for another religion, you'll get one impression of the religions. You can get a completely different impression if you look at a different time period.

 

Islam had its golden age while Christian Europe was in the Dark Ages.

 

(And I actually think the Enlightenment has more to do with the current stability and wealth of the western world than Christianity, but I guess that's a different thread.)

[Stacy in NJ]

Many religions can claim this. When their values and principles are practiced, the world is more peaceful and productive.

 

If you compare a relatively good period for one religion with a relatively bad period for another religion, you'll get one impression of the religions. You can get a completely different impression if you look at a different time period.

 

Islam had its golden age while Christian Europe was in the Dark Ages.

 

(And I actually think the Enlightenment has more to do with the current stability and wealth of the western world than Christianity, but I guess that's a different thread.)

 

Yes, but perhaps the Enlightenment happened because of the nature of Christianity, not despite it. Again, a feature not a bug.

[Melinda in VT]

Yes, but perhaps the Enlightenment happened because of the nature of Christianity, not despite it. Again, a feature not a bug.

 

Perhaps.

 

But it certainly took its own sweet time coming.;)

[Tea Time]

Many religions can claim this. When their values and principles are practiced, the world is more peaceful and productive.

 

If you compare a relatively good period for one religion with a relatively bad period for another religion, you'll get one impression of the religions. You can get a completely different impression if you look at a different time period.

 

Islam had its golden age while Christian Europe was in the Dark Ages.

 

(And I actually think the Enlightenment has more to do with the current stability and wealth of the western world than Christianity, but I guess that's a different thread.)

 

Perhaps, but but your post did not acknowledge this bias at all, it simply worked from the bias as if it was a forgone conclusion with no notice of the cause and effect that practiced values have on the net result of the success for failure of a culture. This is a mindset that believes things "just happen" to people and people (and their beliefs) are not responsible for their actions. Why did you frame it in words that read that way, because I doubt you believe that?

 

Just because many religions claim this does not mean that it is not true with Christianity. You can't toss out the argument on those grounds.

 

So perhaps you are right, but we would have look more closely at the values and principles practiced during "golden ages" and see exactly what they are and where they are most valued. But that would require a huge dedication to honesty and humility, not to a given agenda.

 

I think just the opposite of the Enlightenment.

 

That thread is where all threads eventually lead, which is why I have to step out of it now, before it goes all the way there.

 

Best wishes!

[Abigail4476]

Ds21 and I just had a conversation about these folks last night. He said they are the modern-day pharisees. They show no love. They miss the whole point of Christianity.

 

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing." I Corinthians 13:1-3

 

:thumbup:

[Tea Time]

Perhaps.

 

But it certainly took its own sweet time coming.;)

 

Look, for those of us who believe in theistic evolution, it took a long time just to become "human" at all. For God to call us Sons and Daughters. Clearly He has his own time frame for things.

 

"How can the gods meet us face to face till we have faces?" C.S. Lewis

[Melinda in VT]

Perhaps, but but your post did not acknowledge this bias at all, it simply worked from the bias as if it was a forgone conclusion with no notice of the cause and effect that practiced values have on the net result of the success for failure of a culture. This is a mindset that believes things "just happen" to people and people (and their beliefs) are not responsible for their actions. Why did you frame it in words that read that way, because I doubt you believe that?

 

Just because many religions claim this does not mean that it is not true with Christianity. You can't toss out the argument on those grounds.

 

So perhaps you are right, but we would have look more closely at the values and principles practiced during "golden ages" and see exactly what they are and where they are most valued. But that would require a huge dedication to honesty and humility, not to a given agenda.

 

I think just the opposite of the Enlightenment.

 

That thread is where all threads eventually lead, which is why I have to step out of it now, before it goes all the way there.

 

Best wishes!

 

:confused:

 

I think you are confusing me with Wishbone Dawn. She wrote:

 

We've done more than our fair share of that sort of thing. As luck would have it much of Christianity these days seems to happen in fairly stable and wealthy nations so it shouldn't be a big surprise that we're not out burning and killing. But we've killed piles of people in the past. Enough that I don't think comparisons in the violence between Islam and Christianity point to anything more then the good fortune of many modern Christians to live where they do.