Online P.S....anyone else see them as a HUGE threat to homeschooling?

[LisaKinVA]

I gotta give this one a "What on earth?!" It's about the funding not the method of delivery.

 

No, it's not merely about who is funding it. Did you know that in some states parents have to pay extra money :gasp: to be a part of the Virtual Charter Schools? $500 a child (the amount varies). It's not altogether free. Some states have this luxury, others do not.

 

I am upset because the arguments I continually hear against public charters, and why we should "beware" it's because parents lose their ability to direct the education of their children. But having seen both a full-service private "school at home" option up front, and the public "school at home" option up front, there really is very little actual difference in how they are applied within the home.

 

The private option costs a bit more, and is considered by almost everyone here to be a full homeschooler.

 

Public "School at homer" -- Parents opt into a program, and agree to the curriculum provided, because it allows for the child to move at their own pace, it allows flexibility in course placement, it covers state mandated testing, they have a year to complete curriculum, have to maintain attendance and hours, but can school in the morning, in the evening, on the weekends, and supplement and enrich to their hearts desires. Samples of some work are sent into the evaluating authority to monitor progress/grade.

 

Private "Home School Academy" (full service) -- Parents opt into a program, and agree to the curriculum provided, it allows the child to move at their own pace, may allow some flexibility in course placement, and depending upon where you live, take state mandated tests and may or may not register as a home schooler (some schools say you don't have to register because you are really enrolled in a private school), students usually have a year to complete curriculum. Parents may not have to maintain attendance and hours (depends on the state), but can school in the morning, in the evening, on the weekends, and supplement and enrich to their hearts desires. Samples (or entire course of daily work) may be required to be sent into the evaluating authority to assign final grades.

 

In these cases, if the teachers in either group (private or public) "supporting" the family decide that the participating student should receive a D -- the parents don't get to go back and change the grade. They can appeal, but in the end, it's the school's authority. In one particular (but not unique) Private Homeschool case, a girl received a D on her daily work -- when it was correct and completed according to the standards set forth; the person grading the work marked it down because it was done in "short answer form" instead of "complete sentences." However, the curriculum guidelines for that course STIPULATED "short answer form." When the parent appealed the decision, the school revised the daily work grade to a "C", but said it would not go higher -- DESPITE the daily work being 99% correct, as corrected by her parent.

 

These parents have OPTED for a school at home option. They use the curriculum they chose by opting into that school. They get the support they paid for by choosing that school, and they agree to comply with the directives on how and when the schoolwork should be completed to meet official deadlines. Work is submitted, reviewed and given final grades by someone OTHER than the parents in both of these examples. Yet, the public charter families, are ostracized, and the private families are welcomed.

 

For the record, the NEA does not like cyber charter schools any more than home schooling. They routinely come out against all forms of charter schools, but especially loathe public "school at home" options. The NEA does not feel that parents should have anything to do with schooling of children other than by paying taxes and supporting schools through fundraisers. They are against choice of any kind... period.

 

We all want the same things -- the choice to educate our children the best way we can. Some families simply cannot "do it" in what some deem an ideal fashion. They do the best they can with the options they have.

 

Private school at home options have been around for decades -- but no one here is worried that because this type of private school at home option exists that homeschooling choices will be limited. Because if the state wanted to, it could have limited homeschool choices to that. In fact, I believe some states do require just that (although, crafty families have figured out ways around the spirit of the law, but live by the letter).

 

But people (like me, and others) fought for more choice. And, I'm still fighting for choices, because there are so many children trapped in bad school situations, and parents who are frustrated beyond belief because they can't afford private school, don't think they can homeschool, and are at a loss of what to do to help their children.

 

Everything is on a state-by-state basis. Some states require much more of homeschoolers than Texas. Some states already "track" homeschoolers through registrations and mandated annual testing.

 

Most of the arguments against public virtual schools are nothing more than overblown hyperbole of things that "could" happen, but have no actual basis in reality.

 

Freedom -- of all types -- requires vigilance. It does not, however, rely on fear to drive that point home. Fear is the weapon of tyrants.

 

So if you are going to fight, fight for more educational choices -- not fewer -- because when you fight against educational choices, you agree with the premise that educational choices should be limited, and that is where you start down that slippery slope.

[tex-mex]

I am sure they do good work and have helped numerous homeschooling families that fit within their parameters of those they wish to represent. My only point was that just because HSLDA says they can or can't do something, doesn't mean that is the end of the story legally.

Hi Cammie,

No problem. :) I understand what you are saying -- and you are correct. However, many people have been helped by HSLDA, including myself. And I agree that we are arguing over semantics. The concept of homeschooling as we now view it is more of a wide spectrum of choices. Compared to what choices homeschoolers had 25+ years ago... it is remarkable. But does bring up a new host of complexities and legalities over privacy with public schools. :confused:

[tex-mex]

I think it's so sad when people are intentionally excluded. I'm not directing this at you, personally, but just the idea makes me so sad. I wouldn't be proud of denying membership to families who obviously need support.

I agree with you -- but our support group decided to go this route to avoid public scrutiny by public schools via these families. It is a touchy subject with the crowd of (conservative) homeschoolers that we're with.

Edited May 7, 2010 by tex-mex

[Sputterduck]

This feels like a "We are *real* homeschoolers, and more pure than you" thing.

[ImAhomeSCHOOLmama]

I do. I think it is just another way of attempting to take away our rights to choose the curriculum of our choice for our kids.

[ImAhomeSCHOOLmama]

This feels like a "We are *real* homeschoolers, and more pure than you" thing.

 

 

I agree with that also but not the sense you intended. Either you homeschool. Or you public school. But public school at home is BS. (sorry, that is my thought on the situation anyway- dodging the glares that I am sure are coming my way.)

[Carrie12345]

I "only" read the first six pages. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm in the "the more options, the better" camp.

My first year of... not sending a child to a brick and mortar school was with a public cyber charter. My first year of bringing ds home was with a public cyber charter. My intent was to use it as a stepping stone, though I may have been willing to stick with it if it had fit my family.

 

As far as "qualifying" oneself, yeah, I would explain the situation to people I knew well. Anyone in the grocery store, asking my kids if school was out, no. I wasn't going to explain the nuances while bagging my produce and wrangling 4 kids. Sorry. The explanation for the people I DID know already took a good chunk of time, and they didn't really "get it" anyway.

 

I never felt any more responsible to explain that situation to strangers than I feel responsible to explain my current curricula choices and funding methods. My priority is to educate my children, not the random people I run into.

 

We did spend some time with a homeschool group when we used the cyber charter, and our current homeschool group has several cyber charter families. We have much more in common than we do differences.

[Renee in NC]

Are you talking about locally funded option? I've never heard of anyone pressured to join a cybercharter :confused: Please, details.

 

Barb

 

No kidding. FL won't *let* homeschoolers enroll in the virtual schools!:tongue_smilie:

[LisaKinVA]

I agree with that also but not the sense you intended. Either you homeschool. Or you public school. But public school at home is BS. (sorry, that is my thought on the situation anyway- dodging the glares that I am sure are coming my way.)

 

So if one uses say, the K12 curriculum as an "independent" it's not BS, but if they use it through a cyber charter it's not? Even though it's the exact same curriculum, and almost identically implemented? (the only difference is that the parent will ship a sample of the work off to a teacher?):001_huh:

[newbie]

We consider ourselves homeschoolers, well b/c we do it out of our home.

 

I dont think I could have made it through high school w/o online school. We do independent b/c I am too much of a control freak.

[at the beach]

So if you are going to fight, fight for more educational choices -- not fewer -- because when you fight against educational choices, you agree with the premise that educational choices should be limited, and that is where you start down that slippery slope.

:iagree: I think virtual public schools are making school at home much more mainstream, which IMO makes our choice to homeschool without government intrusion seem more mainstream as well. I also have seen situations where kids need an option like this. Some parents would not have their kids home without it. Any option that brings a child into the family unit and keeps them close to parents and in a better environment is something that I am okay with.

 

I think the group we need to watch out for is the NEA.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Violet

[LisaKinVA]

I do. I think it is just another way of attempting to take away our rights to choose the curriculum of our choice for our kids.

 

How?

 

Please explain how one parent's right to choose the curriculum of choice is taken away by another parent's exercising of their right to choose the curriculum of their choice?

 

:bigear:

 

I have yet to see (or hear) of any state with a virtual charter saying, "because cyber charters are so popular, we are going to ban homeschooling any other way" -- except by people claiming it to be a threat.

 

Did you know that the groups vehemently opposed to charter schools say that charter schools are trying to kill off regular public schools, by pulling children away from them ?

 

It seems everyone is terrified of those charter school things. They must be really powerful. ;)

 

In Virginia, fewer than 100 students nationwide are enrolled in the K12 Virginia Virtual Academy. There are about 30,000 registered Homeschoolers in VA.

[TeenagerMom]

How?

 

Please explain how one parent's right to choose the curriculum of choice is taken away by another parent's exercising of their right to choose the curriculum of their choice?

 

:bigear:

 

I have yet to see (or hear) of any state with a virtual charter saying, "because cyber charters are so popular, we are going to ban homeschooling any other way" -- except by people claiming it to be a threat.

 

Did you know that the groups vehemently opposed to charter schools say that charter schools are trying to kill off regular public schools, by pulling children away from them ?

 

It seems everyone is terrified of those charter school things. They must be really powerful. ;)

 

In Virginia, fewer than 100 students nationwide are enrolled in the K12 Virginia Virtual Academy. There are about 30,000 registered Homeschoolers in VA.

 

 

Arkansas Virtual Academy only has 500 students a year. That's what the state has our enrollment capped at. They attempted to raise it to 1000 last year, but the legislature decided they needed more data to decide if this form of schooling is effective.

 

My county alone has over 500 homeschooling children registered. In 2008, Arkansas had almost 17,000 homeschooling families.

 

As far as state regulation goes, Arkansas already tracked homeschool. You have to file a notice of intent, provide the subjects you will be teaching as well as how many days a year/hours a week you will be schooling. You also have to do standardized testing every.single.year.

 

Through ARVA, the only things that we do differently than official home schoolers is that the state pays for our curriculum, I speak to DS's teacher 1X per month, and I log attendance. We are required to do 30 hrs/week of school. That's okay with me, because EVERY thing that DS does that is "new" learning to him counts towards attendance. PBS educational shows, reading a book, helping me cook a new dish, working in our garden, etc. ALL counts as "school."

[KarenNC]

I agree with you -- but our support group decided to go this route to avoid public scrutiny by public schools via these families. It is a touchy subject with the crowd of (conservative) homeschoolers that we're with.

 

 

Obviously your group has the right to exclude anyone they want, but the reasoning escapes me in this one. Could you clarify what you mean by "avoid public scrutiny by public schools via these families," because from where I'm sitting it sounds an awful lot like you are accusing these people of being some sort of mole or spy with a negative intent toward people who do not use the virtual charter.

[Lizzie in Ma]

it is no threat to me because i will never use that for my kids. it's kind of like mcdonalds...it's another option, albeit a cr*ppy one. i don't have to walk into the store if i don't want to.

 

 

:lol::lol::iagree::iagree:

[Wheres Toto]

I don't see them as a problem. Before they could use them to restrict homeschoolers to more regulation the states would have to get together on a set of regulations in the first place. Some states already have curriculum, testing, reporting and attendance requirements; others require nothing. Some states don't even offer online public schools; some require you register as a private/religious school. Is someone from a state requiring no information more of a "homeschooler" than someone who has to jump through a few hoops? What about states that allow you to claim a certain amount of educational materials on your taxes? Does that count as state funding? I was able to join a Resource Center run by my state DOE so I'm technically using a service provided by the DOE - does that count as state support?

[Haiku]

So if you are going to fight, fight for more educational choices -- not fewer -- because when you fight against educational choices, you agree with the premise that educational choices should be limited, and that is where you start down that slippery slope.

 

I agree. If the people who have chosen alternative methods of schooling their children based on a desire to be more involved in said education view each other as enemies rather than allies, well, that's the real threat to homeschooling. If it's that easy to divide us, it's that easy to conquer us. If we'd rather spend our time infighting than pushing for greater and greater freedom of educational choice (even if that choice includes *gasp* more public school options!), then we are suffering from both narrow vision and short-sightedness.

 

As far as virtual school students being excluded from a homeschool group for fear of "scrutiny," well, we have had over the years several virtual school families in our group. Shockingly, no one from the Big School Establishment has never shown one iota of interest in what we are doing. The schools don't care what homeschool groups are up to. That's the least of the least of their worries. By that logic, people who also have kids in public school (like me) would also be open to more scrutiny. No one from any of my dd's schools has ever bothered to ask what we're up to. I just have to say, shame on those who would exclude children.

 

Tara

[galtgrl]

Thought I should chime in again, since I started this mess...:tongue_smilie:

It seems to me that a lot of the disagreements here stem from the differences in the homeschool laws for each state. Also, I have not heard of public virtual schools (i.e., taxpayer funded) that allow the parents to choose their own curriculum and schedule. The ones I referenced (the ones that sent post cards) and the ones my friends here use sure don't.

I know that California homeschoolers in particular are in a difficult situation, and you all have my support (fwiw) to homeschool however you can get it done there.

I was floored that in some states you can use taxpayer money to fund things like horseback riding and karate lessons if you're part of a virtual p.s. :001_huh:

[LisaKinVA]

Obviously your group has the right to exclude anyone they want, but the reasoning escapes me in this one. Could you clarify what you mean by "avoid public scrutiny by public schools via these families," because from where I'm sitting it sounds an awful lot like you are accusing these people of being some sort of mole or spy with a negative intent toward people who do not use the virtual charter.

 

:iagree:

[Carrie12345]

I agree. If the people who have chosen alternative methods of schooling their children based on a desire to be more involved in said education view each other as enemies rather than allies, well, that's the real threat to homeschooling. If it's that easy to divide us, it's that easy to conquer us. If we'd rather spend our time infighting than pushing for greater and greater freedom of educational choice (even if that choice includes *gasp* more public school options!), then we are suffering from both narrow vision and short-sightedness.

 

 

 

Yup!

Either we support a family's right to educate as they see fit, or we don't. If we don't, and choose to spend our time quibbling over what "types" of "homeschooling" are acceptable, we're weakening our own argument.

[Haiku]

Either we support a family's right to educate as they see fit, or we don't. If we don't, and choose to spend our time quibbling over what "types" of "homeschooling" are acceptable, we're weakening our own argument.

 

You said it better than I ...

 

Tara

[angela in ohio]

This has all probably been said, and I know it depends on what state you are in, so this is based on Ohio (Michigan has none) but...

 

I think the way that the schools themselves and the families enrolled in them 'blur the lines' is a threat. If it's a great option, why not just say they are in a virtual school? Why do they call themselves homeschoolers? It has nothing to do with whether a family should be free to choose one, that is a separate issue. This is an issue with what they call themselves, and the effect it has on homeschoolers. Everytime I see this discussion, the second issue is defended with the first. Totally different arguments.

 

I have met far too many people who find out we are homeschooling and start to rant at me about how, "all these homeschoolers get free computers and my kids' school is laying off teachers." Because many virtual school students have told them that (1.) they are homeschoolers, and (2.) they get a 'free' computer, that is what they think. It is turning public opinion against homeschoolers, and when the only thing securing your right is the legislative body (and thus public opinion,) that matters.

 

There was a law passed in Ohio to get the schools to stop advertising themselves as a homeschooling option. They are legally not homeschoolers, as this word is defined by state regulations.

 

I fully support homeschool groups excluding families with only virtual school students, mostly because one of the schools here pays for new recruits. As soon as a mom talks about how stressed she is, a virtual schooler jumps in and offers it as the best and only option, sometimes because she has a financial incentive. If homeschool parents are putting in their time and money to run a homeschool group (an often thankless and dangerous job, trust me,) they should decide who benefits from their time and money. If someone wants a group with virtual school students, they should start their own group and put in their own time and money.

[TravelingChris]

Florida Virtual School is an option I would like to see in more states. You don't lose your homeschooling legal rights. You enroll your kids in as many classes as you want and they do them. THey do not give out HS diplomas since they aren't a degree granting institution. They are not part of the public school system but are paid by the public schools or individual schools or students or the state. The only requirements for a given class are whatever the requirements are for that class.

 

By the way, HSLDA does allow you to pursue issues like dual enrollment, Florida Virtual School, or taking a class at a public school. I believe that half of your education has to be parent directed. But that doesn't mean that even if you use an outside provider it isn't. Adter all, when I used Calvert with one of my kids, I decided when and where she would do the assignments. I modified the assignments. It was parent directed.

[TXMomof4]

Freedom -- of all types -- requires vigilance. It does not, however, rely on fear to drive that point home. Fear is the weapon of tyrants.

 

So if you are going to fight, fight for more educational choices -- not fewer -- because when you fight against educational choices, you agree with the premise that educational choices should be limited, and that is where you start down that slippery slope.

 

Bravo!

[TeenagerMom]

This has all probably been said, and I know it depends on what state you are in, so this is based on Ohio (Michigan has none) but...

 

I think the way that the schools themselves and the families enrolled in them 'blur the lines' is a threat. If it's a great option, why not just say they are in a virtual school? Why do they call themselves homeschoolers? It has nothing to do with whether a family should be free to choose one, that is a separate issue. This is an issue with what they call themselves, and the effect it has on homeschoolers. Everytime I see this discussion, the second issue is defended with the first. Totally different arguments.

 

I have met far too many people who find out we are homeschooling and start to rant at me about how, "all these homeschoolers get free computers and my kids' school is laying off teachers." Because many virtual school students have told them that (1.) they are homeschoolers, and (2.) they get a 'free' computer, that is what they think. It is turning public opinion against homeschoolers, and when the only thing securing your right is the legislative body (and thus public opinion,) that matters.

 

There was a law passed in Ohio to get the schools to stop advertising themselves as a homeschooling option. They are legally not homeschoolers, as this word is defined by state regulations.

 

I fully support homeschool groups excluding families with only virtual school students, mostly because one of the schools here pays for new recruits. As soon as a mom talks about how stressed she is, a virtual schooler jumps in and offers it as the best and only option, sometimes because she has a financial incentive. If homeschool parents are putting in their time and money to run a homeschool group (an often thankless and dangerous job, trust me,) they should decide who benefits from their time and money. If someone wants a group with virtual school students, they should start their own group and put in their own time and money.

 

Our Virtual Academy does NOT pay for new recruits and you only get a free computer IF you do not already have one.

 

The problem with saying that VA students should start their own group is that with OUR state virtual academy, there are only 5 students in a 2 hour drive from my house. We are TOO spread out to start a meet up support group for our kids, otherwise I would more than happy to do it. I DO have a problem with being excluded because just LIKE a homeschooling family, we have chosen an alternative option to a brick & mortar school and my kids shouldn't be SHUNNED by the HS community for doing a virtual academy that I have chosen because of the benefits.

[angela in ohio]

Our Virtual Academy does NOT pay for new recruits and you only get a free computer IF you do not already have one.

 

The problem with saying that VA students should start their own group is that with OUR state virtual academy, there are only 5 students in a 2 hour drive from my house. We are TOO spread out to start a meet up support group for our kids, otherwise I would more than happy to do it. I DO have a problem with being excluded because just LIKE a homeschooling family, we have chosen an alternative option to a brick & mortar school and my kids shouldn't be SHUNNED by the HS community for doing a virtual academy that I have chosen because of the benefits.

 

I didn't say the VA families should start their own group; I said that if homeschoolers want to have a group WITH them, they should start a new one that welcomes them. Their effort, their rules.

 

On a side note, honestly, there are pros and cons to every decision. If not being in a homeschool group is a con, then there must still be enough pros to make it worth it to you. I have friends fighting right now to get their dc in sports at the public school on the same argument (their choices shouldn't affect it,) but really, in life, there are going to be pros and cons to every decision we make. We can't just take the pros (free curriculum and computer) and be mad about the cons (not eligible to participate in a group's activites.)

Edited May 7, 2010 by angela in ohio

[TeenagerMom]

I didn't say the VA families should start their own group; I said that if homeschoolers want to have a group WITH them, they should start a new one that welcomes them. Their effort, their rules.

 

:) I get what you are saying now.

[TXMomof4]

 

 

I fully support homeschool groups excluding families with only virtual school students, mostly because one of the schools here pays for new recruits. As soon as a mom talks about how stressed she is, a virtual schooler jumps in and offers it as the best and only option, sometimes because she has a financial incentive. If homeschool parents are putting in their time and money to run a homeschool group (an often thankless and dangerous job, trust me,) they should decide who benefits from their time and money. If someone wants a group with virtual school students, they should start their own group and put in their own time and money.

 

And it doesn't matter if the family of the students in the VA are paying the same money and taking the same time to be involved in a homeschool group? Their desire for any options for their children is removed because they chose the evil VA? How many of us promote whatever curriculum we LOVE because it has worked for us and we want to share?

 

This is truly blowing my mind. I had no idea there was such a disdain and dislike of people using the options available to them. I am choosing this as the BEST option for my family at this time. It may not last longer than this year, but it is the best option for right now. Yes, I am aware I am giving up some of the freedom of homeschooling. However, I am not handing my children over to the schools 8 hours a day. I am doing what I can to keep them home. If the only other option is the school building, this looks pretty darn good.

 

Little did I know that I was going to completely ostracize myself and my children and be personally responsible for the downfall of all homeschooling in the USA. Good grief. :confused:

[2cents]

I don't see online schools as a threat at all. Nobody is compelled to partake of them. It is simply another option. We have an online school that homeschoolers can enroll in and take classes. We keep our status as independent homeschoolers but the option of the online classes is an added benefit to us. My son was able to take High School Latin for 2 years with the free online school. I loved that because foreign language always got stuck on the back burner when I did it. Now my girls are doing Spanish and it is challenging and getting done. I love that! All the kids took keyboarding via virtual. I see virtual school and just another useful tool to our homeschool. I don't see it as a plot to entice homeschoolers to public school at all. Those who want to do it full time under a public school umbrella will do it and if it works for them then that is all that matters IMO.

[Gooblink]

After giving it a little thought and reading through some of the other posts, I'm starting to see more of the picture.

 

In Texas, where I live, homeschools are treated as private schools by law. As such, they are granted freedom to teach in any way fit as long as the curriculum includes the 3 r's and civics. We are allowed to teach about creation, pray in class, teach about God and choose curricula which supports our values and beliefs - even if we believe earth was populated by aliens.

 

Should 'virtual public schools' be classified as homeschooling, then it does have potential to modify the definition by law and subject our choices to that definition as well as to school district administrators.

 

So, I can see why separating the two might be important. Although, in my mind, I define 'homeschoolers' to be anyone directing their child's education in the home, there is a 'legal' definition to consider and potential threat to our liberty if that legal definition changes.

[StartingOver]

I fully support homeschool groups excluding families with only virtual school students, mostly because one of the schools here pays for new recruits. As soon as a mom talks about how stressed she is, a virtual schooler jumps in and offers it as the best and only option, sometimes because she has a financial incentive. If homeschool parents are putting in their time and money to run a homeschool group (an often thankless and dangerous job, trust me,) they should decide who benefits from their time and money. If someone wants a group with virtual school students, they should start their own group and put in their own time and money.

 

And it doesn't matter if the family of the students in the VA are paying the same money and taking the same time to be involved in a homeschool group? Their desire for any options for their children is removed because they chose the evil VA? How many of us promote whatever curriculum we LOVE because it has worked for us and we want to share? :confused:

 

There are groups all over the country, those that require a statement of faith, those that only accept unschoolers, those that only accept classical schoolers, etc, etc, etc. This is nothing new.

[Haiku]

 

Should 'virtual public schools' be classified as homeschooling, then it does have potential to modify the definition by law and subject our choices to that definition as well as to school district administrators.

 

In my state, that is not the trend. The trend here is for virtual schools to be more and more clear about the fact that they are NOT homeschool programs but are, in fact, PUBLIC schools. And they use this as a selling point. They don't try to fool people into thinking it's homeschooling.

 

Tara

[MrsBasil]

I'm in Colorado and there seems to be a few different options for homeschooling. I've only been researching for the past couple of months, so I'm hoping I have this right.

 

There's actual homeschooling where the parent teaches and funds the curriculum. There are options to participate in an umbrella school or co-op that's privately run, but your child is still considered homeschooled. The PS doesn't come into play here.

 

There's a virtual charter that uses the K12 curriculum. You use the entire curriculum and your child is legally considered a public school student in a charter school. This is free.

 

The other option in my area is an enrichment academy run by a public school district or a charter school. Your child goes to the school one day a week and participates in classes like music, drama, art, spanish, math games or whatever is available. Your child is considered a part time student of the school or district that is running the program and a part time home schooler. They have no say in what curriculum you choose or how you school your kids. One of the 2 options in my area has a lending library of curricula that you can borrow for a year. There's no obligation to use it.

 

 

For legal purposes I do think there's a legitimate concern about school administrators wanting more oversight over independent homeschoolers and I understand wanting clear cut legal definitions.

 

In every day conversation, it's less important to me.

[shinyhappypeople]

After giving it a little thought and reading through some of the other posts, I'm starting to see more of the picture.

 

In Texas, where I live, homeschools are treated as private schools by law. As such, they are granted freedom to teach in any way fit as long as the curriculum includes the 3 r's and civics. We are allowed to teach about creation, pray in class, teach about God and choose curricula which supports our values and beliefs - even if we believe earth was populated by aliens.

 

Should 'virtual public schools' be classified as homeschooling, then it does have potential to modify the definition by law and subject our choices to that definition as well as to school district administrators.

 

So, I can see why separating the two might be important. Although, in my mind, I define 'homeschoolers' to be anyone directing their child's education in the home, there is a 'legal' definition to consider and potential threat to our liberty if that legal definition changes.

 

For the purposes of everyday conversation and homeschool activities, I totally agree with the part that I bolded.

 

I didn't realize Texas law treated "homeschoolers" as private schools. It's the same in California. File a private school affidavit and you're done. So, legally my kids would be private school students, not homeschoolers because homeschooling doesn't exist here (again, from a LEGAL standpoint). I had no idea that homeschooling, per se, didn't exist in Texas, either :)

 

Semantics are fun. :D

 

IMO, it's pretty unlikely that any state's gov't would start regulating private schools and restricting what and how they teach. I think in California, being a private school offers me FAR more freedom and flexibility than carrying the legal label of "homeschool."

 

FWIW, I support educational options for families, whether it's a traditional brick and mortar school, private school, family-based private school (aka "homeschool"), virtual academy, etc.

[LisaKinVA]

In my state, that is not the trend. The trend here is for virtual schools to be more and more clear about the fact that they are NOT homeschool programs but are, in fact, PUBLIC schools. And they use this as a selling point. They don't try to fool people into thinking it's homeschooling.

Tara

 

Same here. Everyone was very quick at the senate legislative hearing to clearly state this was NOT homeschooling, but was public schooling in the home.

 

So far, of the 40 or so virtual academy families I've met, 80% came from public school and 20% private or home schooled, most of the homeschoolers were using the K12 curriculum already, and viewed it as a cost-saving measure.

 

We were using the K12 curriculum almost exclusively. It's a bit more "work" to do the VA, but it cut our yearly expenses tremendously. We don't plan to do this forever, mainly elementary school (grades 1-6, assuming they keep granting our children accelerated placements).

 

After that, we're doing middle/high school at home for two reasons (1) poor reputation of the online high school program, and (2) my need to seriously adjust my children's directions in middle school.

 

My oldest needs a "break" from the advanced Language Arts curriculum, so we're going to back off grammar, etc. He wants to write a book -- so we're going to let him. Practical application is better IMO than workbooks anyhow.

[Ellie]

So if one uses say, the K12 curriculum as an "independent" it's not BS, but if they use it through a cyber charter it's not? Even though it's the exact same curriculum, and almost identically implemented? (the only difference is that the parent will ship a sample of the work off to a teacher?):001_huh:

Do you not see the difference between enrolling your children in a public school and complying with the homeschool statutes in your state? The instructional materials or methodology used is irrelevant. The "only difference" is a big difference: one is public school at home, one is not.

[LisaKinVA]

Do you not see the difference between enrolling your children in a public school and complying with the homeschool statutes in your state? The instructional materials or methodology used is irrelevant. The "only difference" is a big difference: one is public school at home, one is not.

 

But that, my friend, does not make it BS.

[Rosy]

I agree. If the people who have chosen alternative methods of schooling their children based on a desire to be more involved in said education view each other as enemies rather than allies, well, that's the real threat to homeschooling. If it's that easy to divide us, it's that easy to conquer us. If we'd rather spend our time infighting than pushing for greater and greater freedom of educational choice (even if that choice includes *gasp* more public school options!), then we are suffering from both narrow vision and short-sightedness.

 

Very well said.

 

Also, I wanted to say that if someone wants to end or restrict homeschooling, they don't need a VA to do it. There are politicians (and always have been, and probably always will be) who distrust parents and want the government to be involved in directing kids' lives from birth through "adulthood". The strength in homeschooling from an outsider's perspective has always been the results we get, academically and behaviorally, and as long as that's there I don't worry about the government taking more control away from parents.

 

Also, no one can tell me as a virtual schooler that I can't teach creation, pray "during class", talk about God, etc. That's ridiculous! I am still their parent, and parents have always taught their kids about creation, and probably many other things that went against what the culture taught as true. That is not a part of our "school", but it is a part of our lives.

 

The state doesn't approve my curriculum choices, they pay for the books that meet their criteria, but I am free to use whatever I want, so long as I make progress toward the educational objectives I have set. They do approve those. But mine were wildly divergent from the school's scope & sequence, and that was fine.

 

To Ellie: I see the difference. My kids are legally public school students. They are getting *exactly* the education I want them to have. In the 8 years my program has been in existence, it has done nothing to erode public or governmental support for legal homeschooling and has done much to bolster many families who are directing their kids' educations at home. I'm not going to deny my kids some wonderfully beneficial experiences because of some unfounded fears (no, I don't trust HSLDA) that my participation in this program will make it impossible for other parents to direct their kids' educations.

[joannqn]

Also, not all virtual public schools are lousy IMHO.

 

:iagree:

 

Ours lets us run our schooling any way I wish. They have never told me what to teach, how to teach, or when to teach. I choose the curriculum, even religious curriculum. I choose the method. I choose the schedule. I even issue the diploma (though I can opt for a state issued diploma if I want).

 

I use many of the same curricula you all do: Spelling Power, Michael Clay Thompson, Math U See, Math Olympiad, Art of Problem Solving, Story of the World, Apologia, Excellence in Writing, Teaching the Classics, etc. We do school in the morning, afternoons, evenings, or weekends as our schedule allows. I even have times when I practically do no formal school at all. (We've done about 4 hours of seat work in two weeks. Our best friends are moving away so we are spending all of our free time with them.) In the three years we've been using the virtual academy, we've done no online classes, unless you count playing Timez Attack online school.

 

Many homeschoolers fear that the state will force homeschoolers into virtual schools. Our state attempted to do the opposite this year: take away virtual schools and force the students back into homeschooling.

[Imprimis]

No kidding. FL won't *let* homeschoolers enroll in the virtual schools!:tongue_smilie:

 

Homeschoolers in Florida are able to take classes--free of charge--through FLVS http://www.examiner.com/x-29147-Jacksonville-Homeschooling-Examiner~y2009m12d3-Abundant-high-school-options-for-Florida-homeschoolers.

 

ETA: FLVS is for middle and high schoolers

Edited May 7, 2010 by Imprimis

[ImAhomeSCHOOLmama]

How?

 

Please explain how one parent's right to choose the curriculum of choice is taken away by another parent's exercising of their right to choose the curriculum of their choice?

 

:bigear:

 

I have yet to see (or hear) of any state with a virtual charter saying, "because cyber charters are so popular, we are going to ban homeschooling any other way" -- except by people claiming it to be a threat.

 

Did you know that the groups vehemently opposed to charter schools say that charter schools are trying to kill off regular public schools, by pulling children away from them ?

 

It seems everyone is terrified of those charter school things. They must be really powerful. ;)

 

In Virginia, fewer than 100 students nationwide are enrolled in the K12 Virginia Virtual Academy. There are about 30,000 registered Homeschoolers in VA.

 

 

Because the more we "need" Their help for OUR choice to homeschool, the harder laws are going to get. The more foothold we give them in what they say or do the tougher it will be. MANY states (SD included) have been getting harder laws than before due to "homeschoolers" reliance on the system. More were doing math or science classes, then they started requiring testing. Now they are attmepting to make a law that you need your curriculum approved and need to know in advance whether you will be using any of their classes due to imcompetence in an area.

 

Either you homeschoool, or your public school (virtual online charter academy, vitrual online public school is virtual bs--either take the initiative to educate your children as homeschoolers or dont-- but dont pretend to do both)

[ImAhomeSCHOOLmama]

So if one uses say, the K12 curriculum as an "independent" it's not BS, but if they use it through a cyber charter it's not? Even though it's the exact same curriculum, and almost identically implemented? (the only difference is that the parent will ship a sample of the work off to a teacher?):001_huh:

 

 

No K-12 is bs no matter how it is used. Either you homeschool, buy your own curriculum, do not get paid by ps, do not allow them to give you a laptop, do not allow the school to get money for your student. You have a choice, homeschoool, or public school. If you choose to homeschool then you choose to pay for your childs education. You can not have it both ways. That is like saying I am self employed but my check comes from the government.

[StartingOver]

No K-12 is bs no matter how it is used. Either you homeschool, buy your own curriculum, do not get paid by ps, do not allow them to give you a laptop, do not allow the school to get money for your student. You have a choice, homeschoool, or public school. If you choose to homeschool then you choose to pay for your childs education. You can not have it both ways. That is like saying I am self employed but my check comes from the government.

 

 

That reminds me of a neighbor one time, that claimed to be self employed but really was receiving welfare !! She was flustered when the IRS wanted to know where here income was.

 

You just can't have it both ways. It is an either or situation.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

No K-12 is bs no matter how it is used. Either you homeschool, buy your own curriculum, do not get paid by ps, do not allow them to give you a laptop, do not allow the school to get money for your student. You have a choice, homeschoool, or public school. If you choose to homeschool then you choose to pay for your childs education. You can not have it both ways. That is like saying I am self employed but my check comes from the government.

 

Actually the K12 curriculum can be used via a public cyber charter school, via the private K12 academy, or via homeschooling. The private school K12 option and the homeschool option both require you to pay full price:)

 

Frankly, I cannot understand the fear since, at least in my neck of the woods, the brick and mortar public schools hate with a passion public cyber charter schools as well as charter schools since they have to cough up money (from the taxes I paid;)) to the charter schools. Lately, I have been reading article article about the school districts whining about cyber charter schools and regular charter schools since they "take our money." In fact, since school districts all over the country are hurting, I think there has been a very vocal movement against charter schools:( The problem is, in my opinion, is that the school districts would not be hurting if they were more fiscally responsible and stopped building cadillac buildings and buying million dollar fuzzy curricula to name a few:)

 

I think the school districts around here would be thrilled to bits if I chose to homeschool my ds :D

 

I think we just need to maintain vigilance and fight for radical school choice and homeschooling:)

[wapiti]

I submit that at least some students of cyber schools may be BOTH public schoolers AND homeschoolers, possibly both from a legal perspective (depending on the state of course; e.g., if the student only takes part of their classes from the cyber school) and from a social perspective.

 

IMO, anything that increases school choice is a good thing, for everyone, and cyber schools certainly increase choice. The one-size-fits-all approach of the traditional public schools does not work, at least not for my kids. My kids are in a charter school and we do a bit of afterschooling. Later they'll probably be in a private school. If it all goes down the tubes, I'm also somewhat prepared to homeschool (that's one of the reasons I spend so much time on this site, to learn how y'all do it!). I just saw an old bumper sticker in the parking lot this morning, "Public Charter School Parent By Choice." I admit, I'm a control freak - I crave choice when it comes to my kids' education. I think of homeschooling as the ultimate in choice - the completely custom version, the haute couture of education ;). Perhaps the cyber school is the knock-off I might find at Target (is this a possible reason it ruffles feathers?). Maybe the quality isn't there, maybe it is, but I love that choices are increasing where I live. We have 9 charters and another 8 "alternative" schools in our district - one cyber charter and one cyber "alternative" school are among them. Our district also offers dual enrollment for homeschoolers and otherwise seems very HS friendly - forms and info clearly available on the district website. (Isn't a dual-enrolled homeschooler a homeschooler AND a public school student?)

 

As a practical matter, I can see how cyber school could potentially create opportunities for those with sinister motives against homeschooling, but the homeschooling community is so large and so accepted (where I live anyway) that any attempted crackdown would be cause for enormous uproar. Regardless, I think the ultimate argument in favor of choice, even for those politically against it, is that most choices (charter, cyber, private) cost the government less per student than traditional public school - private school and total homeschooling being the ultimate cheapest for the government at a cost of $0. (ETA: the trouble is that the teachers' unions are the ones that may lose out on $ by losing out on traditional public school students). A district cutting down on choices is shooting itself in the foot, cost-wise. Cutting off its nose to spite its face. That's where more union control of a district, at a board of ed level, presents a conflict of interest. ok I better stop babbling before I get myself in more trouble :D

Edited May 7, 2010 by wapiti

[Wheres Toto]

In NJ there is no such thing as public virtual schools. I can use K12 as my curriculum and pay for it myself and legally I am considered a homeschooler. It is just one of the many curriculum choices I can make.

 

Someone in PA, using the EXACT same curriculum would be considered (legally) a public schooler even though they are doing the exact same thing I am doing. It is one of the choices they can make if they don't want to send their kids to a b&m school.

 

Someone is a state with high oversight of homeschoolers may be doing a mix of other curriculums but have to submit attendance records, curriculum choices, portfolios and testing but still be considered homeschoolers despite the high level of government oversight.

 

It seems unfair to be arguing semantics and telling people they can't call themselves homeschoolers. I think anyone who is taking responsibility for the children's education and implementing it at home, is a homeschooler. There are many, many different ways to implement it.

[Ellie]

I don't see them as a problem. Before they could use them to restrict homeschoolers to more regulation the states would have to get together on a set of regulations in the first place.

How do you figure? This just doesn't make sense to me at all. Do you mean all 50 states getting together to agree on a single set of regulations?:confused:

 

Some states already have curriculum, testing, reporting and attendance requirements; others require nothing. Some states don't even offer online public schools; some require you register as a private/religious school. Is someone from a state requiring no information more of a "homeschooler" than someone who has to jump through a few hoops? What about states that allow you to claim a certain amount of educational materials on your taxes? Does that count as state funding? I was able to join a Resource Center run by my state DOE so I'm technically using a service provided by the DOE - does that count as state support?

States use government-funded charter schools (on-line and otherwise) to suck hsers in with offers of all sorts of free stuff; hsers instantly become accountable to and controlled by the state, without the state having to pass more restrictive laws. Government-funded charter schools are more common in states with little restriction, such as California--not that other states don't have them, but that there are more of them in those states.

 

Let's not forget that in any state, the government will receive funding for the students it enrolls in its programs, yet another reason that it is in the best interest of the government to suck hsers in. The state gets no moneys from the *homeschoolers.*

[Barb_]

In my state, that is not the trend. The trend here is for virtual schools to be more and more clear about the fact that they are NOT homeschool programs but are, in fact, PUBLIC schools. And they use this as a selling point. They don't try to fool people into thinking it's homeschooling.

 

Tara

 

That's pretty true across the board. The schools themselves don't want anyone to confuse them with homeschooling. They bill themselves as free public education with the flexibility of learning on one's own time. That's why they have "teachers" who do little but paperwork and parent "learning coaches" who do all the teaching. They have no interest in confusing the public or the politicians because doing so could mean a loss of their funding. Virtual charters do everything they can to separate themselves semantically, politically, and ideologically from private homeschooling because they see it in their best interests to do so. There is no danger of any virtual charter becoming the official homeschooling outlet in a state. The virtual charter lobby is too strong.

 

Virtual charters have been around for 9 years and have been widespread for 5. Sooner or later, Chicken Little is going to have to admit she's been overreacting.

 

Barb

 

Barb

[Mekanamom]

Oh boy, I don't have time to read all the responses... heading off to park day in a bit.

 

#1) No, I don't see them as a threat

 

#2) It's difficult to make generalizations about this issue in a forum of this type because the rules and regulations regarding home education vary state by state.

 

#2a) In CA, there are NO homeschoolers. We have 3 legal home education options. Private school at home. Public school at home. Tutoring.

#2b) So... who gets to use the word "homeschooling" in CA? No one owns it here. Either all home educators should be able to use that word, or none. It is a legally meaningless term. Yet it accurately describes the type of education going on in all three legal home education options in this state.

 

#3) I freely admit I do not know all the ins and outs of homeschooling/home education laws in other states, and am not qualified to address this issue beyond my own state.

[Barb_]

 

Someone in PA, using the EXACT same curriculum would be considered (legally) a public schooler even though they are doing the exact same thing I am doing. It is one of the choices they can make if they don't want to send their kids to a b&m schoo.

 

No, they could use K12 with a virtual charter and be considered a legal public schooler. They are also free to purchase the curriculum and use it privately exactly the way you do. It's an important distinction.

 

Barb