Other people's kids...

[LNC]

It comes up often on the boards.... This is not directed at Doran personally! Usually the topics are along the lines of other people's kids are picky eaters, smart mouthed or media obsessed. And you hate being around them. And you feel a need to talk to their parents about their children's behavior and their poor parenting. They may be related to you or your dear friend. And oh yeah. They have something like an autism spectrum or sensory processing disorder but the problem really is that the parents stink. Ladies - really, there is more to it than parenting. Really! Read up on it if you really love these families. If you don't love them, then leave them alone.

 

I've been stared at enough in one trip at the zoo to last a lifetime. My 10 yos with pdd-nos and mild mr literally drew a crowd of 50 people bc of a major meltdown. I refused to buy a toy at the giftshop. We HAD to go in to buy bottled water for my type 1 diabetes son to wash his finger. No drinking fountains to be found.

 

My profoundly handicapped son receives endless compassion from strangers. My son with autism - scorn and derision when he melts down (rarely) or stims.... All because it's an invisible disibility.

 

If you want to understand, then get reading. Otherwise, just get out of the way.

[Night Elf]

ITA! Very well said. I have heard rumors and gossip being said about my parenting style and my children. It always gets back around and I'm surprised that people don't understand that. My heart hurt so much that those people chose to say such awful things about me to other people supposedly because they didn't want to address me and hurt my feelings. I dropped contact with them. That's not friendship, that's ugliness.

 

Beth M.

[Jenstet]

You know how they say "I was a better parent before I had kids". That was me. I would have been staring at you in the zoo. Now the shoe is on the other foot. I now have a kid who has sensory and bi-polar issues. I have more empathy when I see kids acting out. You never know what the family situation is like. It can be very hard especially when the looks come from my in laws. They still don't "get it".

[Janet in WA]

It comes up often on the boards.... This is not directed at Doran personally! Usually the topics are along the lines of other people's kids are picky eaters, smart mouthed or media obsessed. And you hate being around them. And you feel a need to talk to their parents about their children's behavior and their poor parenting. They may be related to you or your dear friend. And oh yeah. They have something like an autism spectrum or sensory processing disorder but the problem really is that the parents stink. Ladies - really, there is more to it than parenting. Really! Read up on it if you really love these families. If you don't love them, then leave them alone.

 

I've been stared at enough in one trip at the zoo to last a lifetime. My 10 yos with pdd-nos and mild mr literally drew a crowd of 50 people bc of a major meltdown. I refused to buy a toy at the giftshop. We HAD to go in to buy bottled water for my type 1 diabetes son to wash his finger. No drinking fountains to be found.

 

My profoundly handicapped son receives endless compassion from strangers. My son with autism - scorn and derision when he melts down (rarely) or stims.... All because it's an invisible disibility.

 

If you want to understand, then get reading. Otherwise, just get out of the way.

I predict a blizzard of replies that say the critics don't mean "your" kids -- or kids who have a "real" or "diagnosed" disorder. They just mean kids who are "clearly spoiled", etc. I think it's the rare parent who will really understand (or accept) your point unless he has been gifted with a special child himself.

[KristineIN]

I'm not really sure how to comment, we have friends who have perfectly normal children, yet they are smart mouthed and picky eaters, it's because the parents put up with it. The mother knows that this is a problem, her boys are in their teens and have been smart mouthed and whiny and the young ones are picky eaters, it's because the parents let them be this way and the children know that if they whine long enough, they will get their way.

 

Kristine

[Janet in WA]

I'm not really sure how to comment, we have friends who have perfectly normal children, yet they are smart mouthed and picky eaters, it's because the parents put up with it. The mother knows that this is a problem, her boys are in their teens and have been smart mouthed and whiny and the young ones are picky eaters, it's because the parents let them be this way and the children know that if they whine long enough, they will get their way.

 

Kristine

I think the point is -- why does one have to comment at all?

[JFSinIL]

but my now 16-yr-old son with PDD/NOS (it is easier to say 'autism" at folks rather than go into the PDD stuff and his Landau-Kleffner Varient diagnosis - "autism" people have heard of) gets SILLY in public. LOUD and SILLY. He will suddenly think of something from the Simpsons movie, or UnderDog, or Monty Python or...sometimes we can't figure it out (his speech is hard to understand although he is verbal) and start laughing about it LOUDLY or singing a song - luckily it is pretty apparent to most folks that this particular almost 6-ft baby-faced kid is "not all there" and we get cut some slack.

 

Autism spectrum kids are far , FAR more common than many people expect!

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I think the point is -- why does one have to comment at all?

 

Because this is sort of the "Water Cooler." This is where we go to vent.

 

And sometimes... SOMETIMES, it all boils down to the fact that the parents cannot be bothered to parent and that those kids are BEGGING in their behavior for some discipline. (Says this mom with a kid on the spectrum.) Some families are just plain ol' messed up. And when we've simply had *enough* of their encroachment into our lives, we use a public forum filled with kindhearted souls to help us process what we may feel is an over-the-top repsonse, to be reassured that no, we are not nuts or yes, we might want to consider the possibility that our reaction was a tiny bit, um, out there.

 

So isn't it wonderful that we have the boards here to make just a few more people aware of hidden disabilities? To say, gently, "Well, your frustration is probably merited, but here is *our* experience"? To open some eyes through yet another conversation about what a super taster really goes through, or what it means to have SI or PDD-NOS, or an autistic child, or an ADHD child?

 

There are a whole HEAP of conversations on this board that I just smile and pass on by because the participants are so misguided in their thinking that it boggles the mind. And there are things I say that make people run for the brain bleach and lock up their children, I'm sure. But it doesn't mean that I think the conversations shouldn't take place. And that said, it doesn't mean that I think the OP shouldn't have posted her opinion as well in *this* thread. But why have the conversation at all? Because that's what we do. Iron sharpening iron. Or at least one hopes.

[j.griff]

I hear your frustration, and I agree with you.

I also think that many of "us" here have a bit of a superiority complex- while we may avidly deny such a thing- actions speak louder than words. The bottom line is- autism/other disorder or no, the people in the world are the people you have to learn to live with- whether you agree with them or not. ITU asking for advice/perspective- but I don't "get" the bashing other people's choices, the need to point out how inadequate their parenting is, how "MY" children would NEVER ... . It's sad, it's SO judgemental, and *I* for one, expect much more from adults (who in *my* opinion should *Know* better) behavior and comments (gossip), than from the struggling children/parents that many adults feel the need to gossip about.

Many times, I think we think of ourselves as "trying to help" the child/adult by "putting them in their place", and by "showing them" that "there are rules of conduct", etc. I think the best thing we could do for others, is to model respect- whether someone is being respectful or you or not; whether you agree with them or not- they don't deserve your ridicule and judgement- they are human beings too, who deserve to be shown the respect that *we* obviously are knowledgeable of. Actions speak louder than words- kindness (whether readily accepted or vehemently rejected) "teaches" people that they are valuable and worthy of our love and kindness.

[Janet in WA]

The problem isn't that we discuss human fiobles. The problem is the judgmental tone. Calling children "spoiled" and "pet peeves". That tone is one of the reasons we didn't socialize much with other homeschoolers. You hear that tone everywhere that parents are found -- but it's particularly dense in homeschooling circles.

 

My reason for avoiding people who talk about other children and their parents in judgmental ways is not defensiveness -- it's that I am trying to avoid being be pulled into conversations of that nature myself. Frankly, that's why I don't hang out around "water coolers" at work either.

[*anj*]

Well as the mother of a "difficult child" it is hard when you look at someone's face and you can tell that they disapprove of your methods. I have one child who is especially difficult. She may or may not be diagnosable. We have just started therapy for her so we'll have to wait and see. But she is not your normal "just be consistent in your discipline" kind of kid. There is something else going on there. I don't know what else I'm trying to say except that the parents of those "special" kids know better than anyone else how hard it is to handle those kids. They don't need even well meaning friends to tell them that their child is not behaving appropriately.

 

And for the record, I think the kid who was at Doran's house the other day sounds like a class a brat.

[Doran]

I appreciate these remarks and the perspective they offer. Although you noted that you weren't referring specifically to my post, I want you to know that I am listening, and learning.

 

I suppose, if we don't know the situation intimately, can't be sure if a child has an "invisible disability" or not, or aren't willing/able to speak directly to the parent(s) of the child, then it's not our place criticize and, as Janet implies, we should simply stay out of it altogether. I do understand how that judgement would be painful and anger-inducing for anyone who is living with the challenges of a child with a disorder simply because it could occur with much greater frequency.

 

I also know that it's hard to discern the difference between kids whose behavior is more medically driven and those for whom it is purely a socio-cultural issue, when there are numerous kids without disorders who act the same way. My overall belief in the philosophy that "it takes a village to raise a child" is shot all to pieces by the concept of not being able to step in when I believe a child is acting out, even when the child is not my own. And, I expect the same to hold true for my child. If she is behaving like an eejit out of my presence, I would hope that someone would call her on it, and call me as well, if they could.

 

But, there is a difference between stepping in and criticizing. Where we go wrong, I think, is when we get into believing that we could do it better, or that if the child was ours, s/he wouldn't act that way. Disorder or not, this is where we need a greater level of humility. Thanks for helping me see that.

 

 

 

Doran

[Needleroozer]

Because this is sort of the "Water Cooler." This is where we go to vent.

 

And sometimes... SOMETIMES, it all boils down to the fact that the parents cannot be bothered to parent and that those kids are BEGGING in their behavior for some discipline. (Says this mom with a kid on the spectrum.) Some families are just plain ol' messed up. And when we've simply had *enough* of their encroachment into our lives, we use a public forum filled with kindhearted souls to help us process what we may feel is an over-the-top repsonse, to be reassured that no, we are not nuts or yes, we might want to consider the possibility that our reaction was a tiny bit, um, out there.

 

So isn't it wonderful that we have the boards here to make just a few more people aware of hidden disabilities? To say, gently, "Well, your frustration is probably merited, but here is *our* experience"? To open some eyes through yet another conversation about what a super taster really goes through, or what it means to have SI or PDD-NOS, or an autistic child, or an ADHD child?

 

There are a whole HEAP of conversations on this board that I just smile and pass on by because the participants are so misguided in their thinking that it boggles the mind. And there are things I say that make people run for the brain bleach and lock up their children, I'm sure. But it doesn't mean that I think the conversations shouldn't take place. And that said, it doesn't mean that I think the OP shouldn't have posted her opinion as well in *this* thread. But why have the conversation at all? Because that's what we do. Iron sharpening iron. Or at least one hopes.

 

Amen! I mean, why do you think I came here to vent last night? I was griping about my own on the spectrum kids, who haven't been getting the right kind of parenting, and I got rep points (Thanks for those, by the way!) for it, for goodness sake! :tongue_smilie:

 

One of the things many of us love about these forums is that it is a safe water-cooler place to be able to vent and (hopefully) grow as a person through that vent. Because I come here and virtually yell and cry and scream and rant over my kids' or someone else's kids, I am able to keep calm, organize my thoughts, and cope effectively with the behaviours of same kids in a kind, considerate, respectful way without losing it on them.

 

I want and need to have these sorts of conversations every now and again- they keep me sane and help me keep a good perspective- heck- the giggles and laughter and support of the ladies here (and the two or three of you who are willing to talk me off the ledge occasionally on the phone) are sometimes all the contact with other moms that I have- my real life is very lonely, and I don't have someone with whom I can let my hair down (funny being said from a woman with a shaved head, lol) IRL.

 

And because so many of us have kids that are not within the normal range, it has taught me so much about being kind to the harried mom in the cereal isle whose kid, normal or not is freaking out because they can't buy the sugary stuff, lol.

 

Okay, that's all for me- I am not supposed to be on this thing right now!

[*anj*]

 

And, I expect the same to hold true for my child. If she is behaving like an eejit out of my presence, I would hope that someone would call her on it, and call me as well, if they could.

 

 

Amen!! I tell my friends "If you see it, but I don't, please take action." I don't want "just anybody" disciplining my kids, but if we're among close friends then yes, I expect my friends to do something about it if my kid is acting like an eejit and I am unawares. I will do likewise for their children.

[Laurie]

I still hurt when I think about the person who compared eating with a child (not hers) to eating with dogs, and then wondered if this was "an autistic thing". I still hurt when I think of the person who was complaining about just wanting to enjoy their own pool without the neighbor and "his autistic half sister" coming over and bothering them.

 

Maybe I'm way off base, but sometimes it feels like people are using the labels autism/asperger's as a way of describing to others the degree to which they've been disgusted/inconvenienced/annoyed.

 

I still struggle to find the middle ground about how much/when to talk about autism. If my children were in wheelchairs or used white canes there wouldn't really be a need to explain the condition to others. But because a neurological impairment isn't as evident sometimes I feel like I have to explain our situation, or wish that I could.

 

My husband and I have never let our children terrorize other people's children, pets, plants, furniture, etc. We've never let them be on-going disruptions at worship services, restaurants, movies, etc....we're very good at quick get-aways! We keep trying to do the things that "normal" families do, but sometimes life can still feel pretty isolating.

 

I wish I could develop a thicker skin and not care about the stares, remarks, gossiping etc. but it's hard when you love your children and wish that others could see/say something good about them once in awhile. It's bad enough when other kids make fun of them or just plain reject them, but it's worse when adults can't show some compassion/consideration. And it ends up being just one more thing to worry about... who's going to love them someday when you're gone.

[PiCO]

I've been stared at enough in one trip at the zoo to last a lifetime. My 10 yos with pdd-nos and mild mr literally drew a crowd of 50 people bc of a major meltdown. I refused to buy a toy at the giftshop. We HAD to go in to buy bottled water for my type 1 diabetes son to wash his finger. No drinking fountains to be found.

 

My profoundly handicapped son receives endless compassion from strangers. My son with autism - scorn and derision when he melts down (rarely) or stims.... All because it's an invisible disibility.

 

If you want to understand, then get reading. Otherwise, just get out of the way.

 

I have often wondered how I could help when I see a crowd gathering at the zoo such as you described above. When my kids pause to see what is happening, I usually comment that they have been there, done that when they were younger. Even "normal" kids have meltdowns.

 

As for the posts on these boards, I think many people are genuinely looking for advice as to how to best handle a situation. I try to avoid posts that are really just venting about "other people's kids."

[MichelleWI]

I try not to judge the parenting of others unless I know the family well. My use of the word "judge" ought to be defined as "evaluate" rather than the impression of deriding their actions and choices.

 

My nephew is autistic, but because of poor parenting is nowhere near where he *could* be. His sister is a terror, has been tested and is "normal", but I give her a little latitude in my home because I know she simply has not been parented. I can't expect either of them to behave like my children because I have not raised them, they have not been well-parented, and sometimes I wouldn't want ANYONE to act like my children. (Eek!)

[Needleroozer]

I have often wondered how I could help when I see a crowd gathering at the zoo such as you described above. When my kids pause to see what is happening, I usually comment that they have been there, done that when they were younger. Even "normal" kids have meltdowns.

 

 

As for helping, I find it really depends on the situation. I was able to offer assistance to a young mom whose older Down Syndrome child was throwing a fit in the frozen foods aisle by holding her baby, and it felt very good to be able (allowed) to help. Other times when I have offered, the parent has just seemed flabbergasted that I would offer help in the first place, and got defensive.

 

If it is just a basic "I want this and you won't buy it for me and I am too tired and cranky to cope" kind of tantrum, I usually smile and say something to the effect of "BTDT, you can do it, what a good mom you are for staying firm." type of comment, and leave it at that. If the parent really looks lost or out of control I will offer to help, but usually the help is not accepted. I don't let that stop me from offering though, and don't get offended when the offer of support is declined.

[Just a Jen in Mississippi]

I still hurt when I think about the person who compared eating with a child (not hers) to eating with dogs, and then wondered if this was "an autistic thing". I still hurt when I think of the person who was complaining about just wanting to enjoy their own pool without the neighbor and "his autistic half sister" coming over and bothering them.

 

Maybe I'm way off base, but sometimes it feels like people are using the labels autism/asperger's as a way of describing to others the degree to which they've been disgusted/inconvenienced/annoyed.

 

I still struggle to find the middle ground about how much/when to talk about autism. If my children were in wheelchairs or used white canes there wouldn't really be a need to explain the condition to others. But because a neurological impairment isn't as evident sometimes I feel like I have to explain our situation, or wish that I could.

 

My husband and I have never let our children terrorize other people's children, pets, plants, furniture, etc. We've never let them be on-going disruptions at worship services, restaurants, movies, etc....we're very good at quick get-aways! We keep trying to do the things that "normal" families do, but sometimes life can still feel pretty isolating.

 

I wish I could develop a thicker skin and not care about the stares, remarks, gossiping etc. but it's hard when you love your children and wish that others could see/say something good about them once in awhile. It's bad enough when other kids make fun of them or just plain reject them, but it's worse when adults can't show some compassion/consideration. And it ends up being just one more thing to worry about... who's going to love them someday when you're gone.

 

((hugs)) Laurie. It's ignorance really. And I speak for myself. I haven't an ounce of dealings with what you have and I've never been around a child with autism/aspergers. That's why I do love posts such as these, because it does open my eyes, develops compassion, and teaches me. Thank you for sharing your heart.

[kalanamak]

You know how they say "I was a better parent before I had kids". That was me. I would have been staring at you in the zoo. Now the shoe is on the other foot. I now have a kid who has sensory and bi-polar issues.".

 

I try to do my part. When someone says my kid is bright or sweet or something great, I always, always, always reply "Yes, we got very lucky" and sometimes add "I think he got my dad's cheerfulness, and what a blessing".

My mother had 6. Number one was saint from the cradle, and number 2 couldn't be held...screamed if held, and still hates her, more than 60 years later. Different from the day they were born.

[Kris]

The problem isn't that we discuss human fiobles. The problem is the judgmental tone.

 

Judgment: The act of judging or assessing a person or situation or event; the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions.

 

We must make judgment calls all the time, from what to have for dinner to what kind of people we let into our lives. I'm sorry, but I don't embrace everyone I meet just because to do otherwise would be considered "judgmental."

 

I have often wondered how I could help when I see a crowd gathering at the zoo such as you described above.

 

I've had this happen a few times, and I just quietly asked Mom if she needed any help. Most of them just smiled and said, "No, thanks" and off we went. But I did have a couple of ladies ask me to keep an eye on the other kids, so we just found a nearby corner or bench and waited. I was a little surprised since one time I was a total stranger, but considering all the people who were around, she might have thought I was the lesser of the evils.

[j.griff]

Judgment: The act of judging or assessing a person or situation or event; the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions.

 

We must make judgment calls all the time, from what to have for dinner to what kind of people we let into our lives. I'm sorry, but I don't embrace everyone I meet just because to do otherwise would be considered "judgmental."

 

judgment- the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind.

judgmental- tending to make moral judgments; Inclined to make judgments, especially moral or personal ones.

 

There is an obvious difference between judging what is the best menu to serve for dinner, whether to give a stranger a ride, and what opinion we form of a child based on their actions.

[Janet in WA]

Judgment: The act of judging or assessing a person or situation or event; the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions.

I didn't use the noun "judgment". I used the adjective "judgmental". Judgmental: characterized by a tendency to judge harshly

 

We must make judgment calls all the time, from what to have for dinner to what kind of people we let into our lives. I'm sorry, but I don't embrace everyone I meet just because to do otherwise would be considered "judgmental."

Again, I didn't say anything about "embracing". It would be my hope that if we don't embrace someone for some reason, we would at least refrain from talking about them in a judgmental (see definition above) tone.

[Kris]

Judgmental: Depending on judgment

[j.griff]

what dictionary are you using? The one I posted above is from dictioary.com

[Carol in Cal.]

What about the parents who avoid a diagnosis? Who don't think there is anything wrong? Am I the only one who agonizes over what to do in this situation? After all, I'm not a clinician. Who am I to say anything? Well, wait a minute--sometimes I'm a good friend of the parent or the child. How can I not say anything?

 

I have a friend whose son is profoundly autistic. I remember so clearly the birthday party I attended where I really realized that there was something terribly wrong with this child. I debated and debated over whether to talk with her about it. I knew that it would be hard to say and much harder to hear. I didn't want to do it, but I felt that it was my duty. Thankfully she decided around the same time that things had gotten out of hand, and sought help and a diagnosis before I talked with her. She and I are still friends and I support her any way I can.

 

But what about my other friend? The one with the son who cannot look anyone in the eye? The son who is now almost 11 years old and has no friends at all? The one who obsesses about his legos to the point where he has never yet successfully listened to a 10 minute story? The one who descends into screaming and crying whenever his routine is disturbed in the slightest? The one whose mom is convinced that he only has a slight ADD problem that he will probably grow out of? What should I do there?

 

When I think of the help that that boy could be getting, I am heartsick.

 

Some people are worried about these children, even when they sound like they are judging them or their parents. Some people, like me, are eating their hearts out because the parents of these children seem to be in such denial. And the children get older and older, and less and less flexible and helpable. It is really, really hard to see. It is really, really hard to know what is truly the right thing to do.

 

And what about children whose need for a quiet learning environment or for a lack of uncontrolled physical contact is just as strong as a noisy or ADHD child's need for the ability to make noise and bump into people? Do they have no rights to have their needs met just because they are quiet needs?

[Janet in WA]

 

Judgmental: Depending on judgment

I'm not sure what your point is. I have told you what I meant when I used the word "judgmental", using a bona fide definition from a huge Webster's dictionary. It won't matter how many other definitions you post -- it won't change my meaning, nor the fact that I used the word correctly. Take a break.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

what dictionary are you using? The one I posted above is from dictioary.com

 

The point is, I think, that we all use our judgment. To pick on Doran, when the kid called her stupid and deliberately defied both her and his father right in front of her, she rightly (IMO) judged him to be a rather indulged little boy.

 

And she judged she would let his parents deal with him without her interference from then on.

 

And then she vented about her day and her frustration to us, as she is often (I'm happy to say) wont to do. And we sympathized, or not. Or pointed out other alternative scenarios, or simply disagreed with her.

 

Or did like me, who was so ambivalent about the topic that I had nothing intelligent to say, so I abstained.

 

I'm not sure why discussing behavior has taken on a Potter-esque tinge all of a sudden. All of our minds are being broadened by hearing about others' journeys, right? What is so almighty bad about that?

[Philothea]

First of all there is a difference treating someone with a disability in an unkind manner and being critical of another person's parenting skills.

 

Secondly, I think that the reason people are venting about bad parents and their spoiled brats is because it is difficult to live counter-culturally. Meaning that the culture of today's youth is getting progressively worse, children are getting more and more disrespectful and less and less families are having any kind of defined values or morals in their homes.

 

Let's face it, the output of many families today are a self-centered, pop-culture driven generation that you would not want in your employment as adults.

 

I think that adults have every right to examine and make judgements on the actions and parenting of others, so that they can understand where our society is going and also to determine what kind of parents they want to be.

 

I am extremely tired of people calling others judgemental because their views do not make them feel warm and cozy.

[gardenschooler]

So isn't it wonderful that we have the boards here to make just a few more people aware of hidden disabilities? To say, gently, "Well, your frustration is probably merited, but here is *our* experience"? To open some eyes through yet another conversation about what a super taster really goes through, or what it means to have SI or PDD-NOS, or an autistic child, or an ADHD child?

 

 

 

Really and truly, these kinds of threads do help give a great deal of insight into the behaviors of some of these conditions. If you've never experienced it or been around kids with these diagnoses, it seems outlandish and unbelievable. My only experience with hearing about these things have been through this board. I've learned a lot from these threads, and it will definitely help me understand it better and hopefully react in a more appropriate manner than I would have before, if and when I ever do encounter it.

 

And I think comparing lazy parenting to kids with these problems is like comparing apples to sushi. We're talking about two completely different things, but it's the information in knowing that yes, these are two different things that is helpful.

 

If you have a kid like this, wouldn't it be more helpful for the general public to be more informed? That's what these discussions do for me.

[Janet in WA]

First of all there is a difference treating someone with a disability in an unkind manner and being critical of another person's parenting skills.

 

Secondly, I think that the reason people are venting about bad parents and their spoiled brats is because it is difficult to live counter-culturally. Meaning that the culture of today's youth is getting progressively worse, children are getting more and more disrespectful and less and less families are having any kind of defined values or morals in their homes.

 

Let's face it, the output of many families today are a self-centered, pop-culture driven generation that you would not want in your employment as adults.

 

I think that adults have every right to examine and make judgements on the actions and parenting of others, so that they can understand where our society is going and also to determine what kind of parents they want to be.

 

I am extremely tired of people calling others judgemental because their views do not make them feel warm and cozy.

If you are addressing me specifically with this comment, it's apparent that you haven't followed what I've said about this so far. But I'm tired of summing it up, so I'll just leave your comment alone. Peace.

[j.griff]

The point is, I think, that we all use our judgment. To pick on Doran, when the kid called her stupid and deliberately defied both her and his father right in front of her, she rightly (IMO) judged him to be a rather indulged little boy.

 

And she judged she would let his parents deal with him without her interference from then on.

 

And then she vented about her day and her frustration to us, as she is often (I'm happy to say) wont to do. And we sympathized, or not. Or pointed out other alternative scenarios, or simply disagreed with her.

 

Or did like me, who was so ambivalent about the topic that I had nothing intelligent to say, so I abstained.

 

I'm not sure why discussing behavior has taken on a Potter-esque tinge all of a sudden. All of our minds are being broadened by hearing about others' journeys, right? What is so almighty bad about that?

 

 

I don't think there is anything "bad" about it, necessarily. It is when some of us become so frustrated that we are using what are perceived to be "harsh" words when venting/talking about these situations. Of course, every person comes here with their own personal filter, and some can accept that each of us have different "filters", etc. Some are encountering such "judgment" everyday of their lives, and would like to encounter more people who don't make such "harsh" statements about children with "issues". You never know when you words are going to hurt someone, unintentionally.

On one hand- it's great to have a place to vent so that you dont' take out your frustrations on people IRL, OTOH- reading such vents is very hurtful and causes them to feel even more secluded from "regular" people than they were already feeling-due to their child's "issues" (I am using the word "issues" here to cover all diagnosed/undiagnose causes).

It's kinda like when you first start homeschooling, and you are unsure of yourself and you encounter SO much negativity toward homeschooling and homeschoolers- you're told you CAN'T teach your DC as well as a certified teacher, etc. But with HSing, your confidence grows and each year you see that you are "succeeding" more. Parents of children with "issues" may NEVER see such "success" in improving their dc's behavior- even with therapy. It is a constant struggle for them and their dc, and they are hurting, and it hurts even more and much deeper to come here to a safe place re-hsing, and see SO many of the people whom you'd expect (correctly or not) to be more understanding and less quick to jump to conclusions/judgments of people talking about a child like yours with the same venom, judgment (and by judgment I am meaning the negative use of the word that many understand), misunderstanding, and lack of compassion.

 

I am sure there are special boards for parents of children with "issues", but it would be nice to not encounter people EVERY where you go talking about children in such a manner. That's my perspective anyway (and AFAIK, I don't have a child with such 'issues').

 

IF we were discussing "behavior" without the use of derogatory terms (whether they are intended to be hurtful or not), that would be a different thing. And IF we were discussing it without insulting the parents of such children, or making generalizations about lazy parents, etc.

What good does it accomplish to call people names and spew venom about them? What good would it accomplish if we all learned to word our posts carefully, in order to prevent hurting someone?

I understand the need to vent, I really do. I understand the need to hear that you are not crazy for being uspet about something.

Maybe we should take great care to use the word VENT or RANT in our subject lines, when we are letting our words fly about the behavior of other people's children. Maybe we should label such posts "OPC Rant" and then type the pertaining subject (swimming lessons, public park, etc.). That way those who are very hurt by such posts, could avoid them much the same way that those offended by Christian content can avoid posts labelled with CC in the subject line.

Just a though (or twenty).

:001_smile:

[Janet in WA]

 

If you have a kid like this, wouldn't it be more helpful for the general public to be more informed? That's what these discussions do for me.

Sure. But "if you have a kid like this", many of the comments are hurtful, not informative. If it takes a hurtful comment to spur some informative discussion, though, perhaps it's worth it. But pointing out the hurt is part of being informative.

[Philothea]

Janet,

My comment had nothing to do with what you said. :)

[Barb_]

And I think comparing lazy parenting to kids with these problems is like comparing apples to sushi. We're talking about two completely different things, but it's the information in knowing that yes, these are two different things that is helpful.

 

And then there is the dreaded combination--the parents who use the disability to excuse the behavior. The child in the hotel room above us who jumped on the couch, bed and ran the television at all hours. When I walked upstairs the next morning to plead with them to keep it down, I was told that their child was autistic and since she never sleeps they don't even hear it anymore. So, why not specifically request a downstairs room, I asked. I offered to trade rooms with us and they refused point-blank. Where is the consideration?

 

Then there's the 3yo on the next street who screams and clocks other children when he doesn't get his way. Dad allows him to play in the neighborhood with no supervision. When the behavior is brought to the dad's attention, the excuse is, he's autistic, we're working on it. Well work on it in your own house, or supervise him in the neighborhood, please!

 

Sure, there are challenges. We have them in our own family. 1 Aspergers and one ADHD. Both need an exhausting amount of daily support, guidance, and supervision. There is the perception on this board that those of us with no patience with out of control kids must never have been there ourselves. It's not true. These guys are my problem, not the problem of the world at large. My negative reactions to other people's kids occur when it's obvious that, special needs or no, the family takes the attitude "we do all we can with our kids...when they're at your house, they're your problem."

 

Please do not read more into this than is here. Each family can only do the best it can with the children they are given. I know my kids aren't angels 100% of the time when out of my sight, but they do know I expect them to be. Luckily most of the parents I know and are close to expect the same of their kids, so gentle correction is all that is needed. They don't mouth off or challenge my authority. However, certain families of my own acquaintance know of their kids' issues and really don't feel they can expect polite behavior. I'm tired of that, honestly. The low expectations. If that makes me judgemental, then write it on a sticker and slap it on my shirt.

 

Barb

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

If that makes me judgemental, then write it on a sticker and slap it on my shirt.

 

Barb

 

:lol:

[mcconnellboys]

I'm sorry. I have several friends who have sons with autism and we regularly encounter similar problems when we're out with them. I wish the world could be more compassionate. If a child is having a problem, then obviously there's a cause for it of some kind. Why would one make ill-informed assumptions about complete strangers?

 

Regena

[MichelleWI]

And then there is the dreaded combination--the parents who use the disability to excuse the behavior.

 

This is what I was trying to gently point to in the post about my nephew. I adore this little guy and my heart breaks when I see how UNparenting has affected him for the worse. He really is a doll, and has taken a particular liking to me. But I am not his parent. God did not make me his parent. I can only offer advice and insight when it is asked for, and then assume (due to past experience in *this* situation) that it will not be followed.

[Kay in Cal]

Well said! Kindness and understanding all around will do wonders for the "water cooler" and the world at large.

[Janet in WA]

Janet,

My comment had nothing to do with what you said. :)

Ah -- thanks for clearning that up. :)

[Rosie_0801]

Our town has an Asperger family support group, who recently fundraised enough (or were given a grant) to buy books for the local library. I've noted with interest that there are almost none on the shelves :) I expect they've all been borrowed by members of the support group, but when they come back, I intend borrowing a few. My daughter's godfather has Aspbergers, but while he's perfectly happy to provide info, most of what he claims to be his Aspbergerness sounds just like every other geek we know. Including ourselves!

I think people by nature are judgemental, and can only help themselves so much. The world wouldn't run any better if no one judged anyone. I tend to make judgements on children's behaviour by the parent's. If mum and dad are hollering insults at the kids, it's clearly bad parenting. If mum and dad are trying desperately to be reasonable, odds are that the kids have some sort of issue. Still, judgements don't need to be voiced to all and sundry. There seem to be a number of good picture books about autism spectrum disorders being produced. Perhaps a few of them need to make their way into people's Christmas stockings... I've heard of one called "All cats have Aspergers Syndrome" or something similar. A book with a title like that deserves to be bought!

Rosie- constantly biting her tongue because her in-laws don't seem to understand that their kids are hard of hearing, and remain so even with their hearing aids in. No, they CAN'T hear you when you whisper!!!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Frustrated at not being able to respond well to whatever situation presented itself. Frustrated at trying to be welcoming and feeling taken advantage of. Frustrated at thinking that there was something else going on but having no clear idea what (I don't expect parents of kids with issues or special needs to announce it to all and sundry, but I also don't expect everyone around to be able to recognize that one child is spoiled and another behaving within the best of their ability). Frustrated that their own experience was infringed on by others (this applies mostly to posts about poorly disciplined children).

I usually get the sense that these posts are more along the lines of "how could I have made this situation better" than "look what the little brats did this time; what are their parents thinking."

I'm blessed not to have first hand experience with a child who has been diagnosed with a disorder. So I may well offer offense when not is intended. If the family that I've offended just fumes silently, then I'll never know that a certain phrase is unwelcome. Or that they use this or that phrase to help keep their child on track.

We can all cut each other some slack in this situations.

[SheilaZ]

I still hurt when I think about the person who compared eating with a child (not hers) to eating with dogs, and then wondered if this was "an autistic thing". I still hurt when I think of the person who was complaining about just wanting to enjoy their own pool without the neighbor and "his autistic half sister" coming over and bothering them.

 

Maybe I'm way off base, but sometimes it feels like people are using the labels autism/asperger's as a way of describing to others the degree to which they've been disgusted/inconvenienced/annoyed.

 

 

I agree with this. No one would say, "That blind kid really annoys the heck out of me." Or "I really wish I could sit outside without having to put up with that deaf kid next door grunting all the time." Or "That kid with one arm sure is a messy eater. My dogs are neater than that."

No one would ever dream of being that heartless. They would fear the public ridicule of being that cruel.

 

But it is perfectly acceptable to put down a child based on what they think is poor parenting , whether it is organic in nature or not.

[Jackie in AR]

I think the point is -- why does one have to comment at all?

 

I agree with you, Janet.

 

I've recently read a great quote, and I can't even remember where I saw it.

 

It said, "If you're not part of the problem or part of the solution, then talking about a conflict situation is gossip." (my paraphrase)

 

Sometimes it is best to just keep our mouths shut (or our fingers off the keyboard). :001_smile:

[Jackie in AR]

I hear your frustration, and I agree with you.

I also think that many of "us" here have a bit of a superiority complex- while we may avidly deny such a thing- actions speak louder than words. The bottom line is- autism/other disorder or no, the people in the world are the people you have to learn to live with- whether you agree with them or not. ITU asking for advice/perspective- but I don't "get" the bashing other people's choices, the need to point out how inadequate their parenting is, how "MY" children would NEVER ... . It's sad, it's SO judgemental, and *I* for one, expect much more from adults (who in *my* opinion should *Know* better) behavior and comments (gossip), than from the struggling children/parents that many adults feel the need to gossip about.

Many times, I think we think of ourselves as "trying to help" the child/adult by "putting them in their place", and by "showing them" that "there are rules of conduct", etc. I think the best thing we could do for others, is to model respect- whether someone is being respectful or you or not; whether you agree with them or not- they don't deserve your ridicule and judgement- they are human beings too, who deserve to be shown the respect that *we* obviously are knowledgeable of. Actions speak louder than words- kindness (whether readily accepted or vehemently rejected) "teaches" people that they are valuable and worthy of our love and kindness.

 

Well stated, Jenn. What is that old adage? "If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all."

[Tracey in TX]

We comment when another person's behavior negatively impacts our own environment. A screaming child, kid punching DCs w/o cause (or even with cause), rude kid, etc. really deserves parental interference. When that fails to happen, the offended parent or child should be allowed to voice frustration, anger, etc.

 

On Friday, my DCs were at Open Gym. Some bully (MUCH larger than my kids) with "unseen issues" punched, sat on, and choked DS. Mom defended him stated we didn't understand his problems. Excuse me? Staff didn't kick him out of gym. My poor child was in hysterics, hurt w/ marks on his neck and chest by this bully. DS was in the wrong place at wrong time ,yet parent defended the reprehensible behavior. Mama bear kicked in and I am wholly justified in complaining about another person's kid and parenting style. Call me crazy, but the 'water cooler' conversation is much healthier than getting in that mom's face and giving her a piece of my mind.

 

Just another perspective...

[Jackie in AR]

We comment when another person's behavior negatively impacts our own environment. A screaming child, kid punching DCs w/o cause (or even with cause), rude kid, etc. really deserves parental interference. When that fails to happen, the offended parent or child should be allowed to voice frustration, anger, etc.

 

On Friday, my DCs were at Open Gym. Some bully (MUCH larger than my kids) with "unseen issues" punched, sat on, and choked DS. Mom defended him stated we didn't understand his problems. Excuse me? Staff didn't kick him out of gym. My poor child was in hysterics, hurt w/ marks on his neck and chest by this bully. DS was in the wrong place at wrong time ,yet parent defended the reprehensible behavior. Mama bear kicked in and I am wholly justified in complaining about another person's kid and parenting style. Call me crazy, but the 'water cooler' conversation is much healthier than getting in that mom's face and giving her a piece of my mind.

 

Just another perspective...

 

But shouldn't the frustration, anger, etc., be voiced to the parent of the child who has offended you? Otherwise, how is the situation going to change?

 

I don't see what purpose it serves to bring the situation to an online forum to describe how horrible someone else's child is. I don't see that as "healthy". I don't see how that helps the situation with that particular child at all.

 

I don't feel that I'm ever "justified" in complaining about anything. Things may not go as I want them to, but that doesn't "justify" me to lower my own standard of conduct.

 

And I'm certainly not saying I'm perfect, Tracey; believe me, I've plenty of problems of my own. :D And I'm not directing all this at you, just at the thread in general. I'm just saying that the world would be a better place if we all extended a little more grace. Me included. :D

[Only me]

I agree that we should all be more understanding of situations where we think the child is just misbehaving when really there is an underlying issue.

 

On the other hand, when the behavior directly involves our children I think the parents need to step in. In Tracy's case the mother should have been pulling her kid off of Tracy's child. I can imagine that it is sometimes difficult raising a child like this but when safety is an issue there is no excuse for letting the behavior continue. If the child cannot control themselves the parent should be stepping in.

 

We had an incident where a neighborhood boy was following my girls around no matter what they did. At the time he was 16 and my girls were 14 and 11. He even started to follow them to the park. He didn't want to play with them but would get in their face and just stare at them or try to prevent them from going on other equipment. It got to the point where I couldn't let me girls go to the park anymore.

 

This same boy was coming on our street and bullying my son (then 8). My son finally told the boy that if he couldn't act nice that he should go home. A few days later the parents came knocking on my door telling me how mean my son was and that we should be understanding because their son had Aspies. I told them that my kids tried to be understanding but that their son crossed the line. They went on to tell me how much trouble their son had communicating with other kids and that he didn't know when he was crossing the line. They said that he had anger management issues and couldn't control his temper. This kid was twice my son's age and could really hurt him yet the parents were yelling at me. If they felt that their son was that out of control I feel that they should have been supervising him more closely.

 

I agree that until you've been in someone's shoes that you shouldn't criticize them but taking care of your own children has to come first.

[Lizzie in Ma]

My dd has sensory issues with clothing, she is SO much better than she was when she was little, but yesterday we had to go bra shopping. I mean, no choice kwim? It was a nightmare, she was crying in the dressing room, practically hysterical. After that she was toast, done in, and holding my hand during checkout. We kept stopping for hugs and she kept saying she wasn't trying to be difficult and she was sorry but they all "hurt" her in some way. Seam, fastener, edging, design, there was always something. There were some sympathetic looks but the sympathy was for me, not my poor dd who most needed compassion not condemnation.

She wasn't badly behaved per se, she wasn't yelling or pitching fits. She was just crying saying they hurt her, bra after bra after bra. And then I was practically wearing her while we finished our shopping. My heart was broken for this beautiful, gifted young lady that is my gift from God but there is very little understanding out there for what are perceived behavior problems.

[LNC]

I've read through most of the comments. I've already said most of what I wanted to say on the topic, but I did want to clarify one thing.

 

I was not referring to parents of children on the spectrum who do not supervise their children or who allow their children to harm others. Obviously that is totally unacceptable.

 

I'm referring to the uncharitable judgements parents of neurotypical children make of parents of children with hidden disibilities ~ when they have no idea of what these parent's challenges are. No idea. That's all.