So sad...

[pqr]

No it's not! There are references to African places all of the time in conversation, literature and the news, even in games, and when you don't know any major African landmarks, how can someone help you pinpoint the relative location? Besides, we have a duty to our fellow man to know at least the names of things that are major to their lives, like the greatest river on their continent.

 

 

Nicely put. I am not too sure about the "duty to our fellow man" bit, but the point is well taken and it was nicely put.

 

Knowledge is rarely a waste of time especially when related to a topic as timeless as geography.

 

It is late here, in Europe, in a major city situated on one of Europe's great rivers, both of which are well worth knowing. Good night.

Edited November 23, 2009 by pqr

[elegantlion]

No it's not! There are references to African places all of the time in conversation, literature and the news, even in games, and when you don't know any major African landmarks, how can someone help you pinpoint the relative location? Besides, we have a duty to our fellow man to know at least the names of things that are major to their lives, like the greatest river on their continent.

 

It's been a long day, I have the school table covered in biology books planning for next semester so my brain is toast. Geography is one of my favorite subjects, I love knowing where stuff is located even the rivers of Africa, but you could say that some people prefer to be in denial about its importance. (Yes, stupid pun intended!) :lol::lol:

[Jumping In Puddles]

No it's not! There are references to African places all of the time in conversation, literature and the news, even in games, and when you don't know any major African landmarks, how can someone help you pinpoint the relative location? Besides, we have a duty to our fellow man to know at least the names of things that are major to their lives, like the greatest river on their continent.

 

I said ALL of the rivers but I think in one of my posts I was trying to say that minute details of geography are unnecessary but I think major rivers in Africa, familiarity with countries in Africa, and in fact, on every continent is important to know. I think basic geography that everyone should walk around with in their head is the 5 Oceans and 7 continents only because it doesn't take much time to memorize and it is difficult to forget.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Jumping In Puddles

[Jorsay]

A published author in the field of education, 99.9% on exams 97%....deans list...millionaire..... and you have no desire to know something as simple as the location of the world's oceans? I strive to teach my children to love learning and if they do not know something I insist that they look it up, I would hope authors in the field of education would feel the same way.

 

I didn't say that "I have no desire to learn the locations of the world's oceans." I think I said "I am not going google the Southern Ocean." I believe that this implies that I felt that such knowledge was not very important.

 

If you believe that being a 'jeopardy expert' is an admirable goal, then I won't hold it against you. I admire those skills as well. However, I prefer to spend my time doing other things, such as memorizing AND understanding things in which I have a special interest.

 

By the way no need for you to brag, rest assured most of us can not match the qualifications that you listed.

 

The implication was that it is somehow valuable in life to know the oceans. I listed some of my accomplishments in order to provide an example of one who has had a successful life by most people's standards without even memorizing all the oceans, thereby demonstrating that know the oceans is not all that valuable. So it WAS necessary for me to 'brag'.

 

As for matching my accomplishments: I believe that there are many ways to have a successful life and 'matching' my accomplishments is not likely to be one of them. There are many who have made more money than I, who are smarter than I, and who are more educated than I, etc... Those things don't make those persons better than me. In fact, their accomlishments don't really reflect on me in any way. Nor do my accomplishments reflect on you or the value of your life.

[Old Dominion Heather]

I'm with you. I think that a knowledge of the rest of the world's geographic features teaches us respect for mankind. I think it is pretty much impossible to rightly understand world events (let alone history) if you can't put the events in the context of the geography involved.

 

The American Civil War, the conflict over Gaza, and the Indian/Pakistani conflict over the Kashmir region come to mind.

[HRAAB]

I tend to lump knowledge into two different categories: knowledge which needs to be immediately recalled and knowledge that we can look up on an as-needed basis. Basic arithmetic, spelling, grammar/mechanics facts needed to be memorized. These are not things we want to be looking up everytime we're writing or balancing our checkbook. There's other information that I do not expect my children to commit to memory. What comes to mind are some of the dates to be memorized in TWTM - like different Egyptian dynasties, etc. If I need that, I can find it. Easily especially now in the days of internet.

 

However, into that first category I include basic geography. Especially of America, since we are Americans. If my children are speaking with someone from the New England states, I want them to know which states those are and be able to converse intelligently. I also think knowing the continents and oceans is equally important. I cannot imagine reading widely without having that knowledge; one might have to be constantly referring to an atlas or encyclopedia. Even major rivers and mountain ranges give us a reference point and help to build our cultural knowledge.

 

My children learned all the continents, oceans, location of states and capitals when they were in grade school. I will have to quiz my grown children and see how much they recall. I imagine (hope) that their recall is pretty good since we tend to read a lot and try to stay on top of current issues. Who knows? I might be disappointed.

[creekland]

 

Not only that, if your employees had had a book in their hands when you asked them, and you told them it was a test and that they could use the book without penalty, you believe that the smart ones wouldn't have verified their answers in the book?:confused:

 

If anyone in our employment had had to look at a book for that test we would rightly assume they didn't have the intelligence for their position. Maybe we should ask it before we hire anyone else... :)

 

You are free to have your beliefs, but they sure don't sway mine. I think it's time we agree to disagree.

[creekland]

I tend to lump knowledge into two different categories: knowledge which needs to be immediately recalled and knowledge that we can look up on an as-needed basis. Basic arithmetic, spelling, grammar/mechanics facts needed to be memorized. These are not things we want to be looking up everytime we're writing or balancing our checkbook. There's other information that I do not expect my children to commit to memory. What comes to mind are some of the dates to be memorized in TWTM - like different Egyptian dynasties, etc. If I need that, I can find it. Easily especially now in the days of internet.

 

However, into that first category I include basic geography. Especially of America, since we are Americans. If my children are speaking with someone from the New England states, I want them to know which states those are and be able to converse intelligently. I also think knowing the continents and oceans is equally important. I cannot imagine reading widely without having that knowledge; one might have to be constantly referring to an atlas or encyclopedia. Even major rivers and mountain ranges give us a reference point and help to build our cultural knowledge.

 

 

 

:iagree: 100% Basic geography is definitely necessary recall knowledge.

[Jorsay]

If anyone in our employment had had to look at a book for that test we would rightly assume they didn't have the intelligence for their position.

 

1. I didn't know for sure that there were only 4 OR 5 oceans. I had never heard of the Southen Ocean. So, if you follow your 'assumption', then I don't have the 'basic intelligence' to work for you. I believe that demonstrates that such an assumption is specious.

 

2. I would hope that, no matter how confident your civil engineers are, they don't rely upon their memory for the important constants when building bridges and other structures. No matter how well they THINK they know them, I hope they will verify their memories by checking the book or computer. It's just 'basic intelligence' to do so.:001_smile: They do check and double check their constants, don't they? I mean, wouldn't that be the height of hubris if one of your engineers said "No need for me to verify the shear stress modulus for that steel because that would be a disgrace."

[Heather in WI]

I think that a knowledge of the rest of the world's geographic features teaches us respect for mankind. I think it is pretty much impossible to rightly understand world events (let alone history) if you can't put the events in the context of the geography involved.

 

:iagree:

 

My 2nd and 4th grader know the continents and oceans! How on earth can you appreciate history, literature, current events, politics, etc. if you have no idea where the place is, what it is like, what is around it, etc. :confused:

[Erica in PA]

I just replied to Peela's post, but you really don't think you could have labeled 4 oceans?

 

Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, Arctic (Southern, but you wouldn't know that one unless you studied recently and according to geographers it is not wrong to leave off the Southern Ocean)

 

Is it really that shocking? I wouldn't be 100% sure of the oceans either, and if I were allowed to check in a book to make sure, as these students were, I would have done so. I think anyone who is shocked and astounded by this situation must not spend a lot of time around the general public.

[Erica in PA]

We see things in a different light. 2 out of 23 is a disgrace, there is no other way of putting it.

 

As to wagering "a large sum of money that they could name ALL the oceans and ALL the continents correctly"....I would bet the house and the bank account and would have won. When I asked my parents, my siblings and other hsing friends they all agreed that they too would bet all their assets and won.

 

Some things are simply inexcusable 2 out of 23 fits that definition.

 

2 out of 23 did it *without using the book*, which was allowed by the teacher. It's not like 21 out of 23 turned in a totally blank map. I bet there were some cautious students who pretty much knew the information, but wanted to double check with the book just to be sure. When I was in school I'd have done this even if I were 100% sure I was right, just because whenever there is a chance to double check my info, I do it. And it's not like the rest didn't know *any* of the continents or oceans.. they may have used the book for the few they didn't know.

 

Not shocking at all, and certainly not a disgrace, imo.

[Erica in PA]

I wonder if your kids really would fail the test, because obviously they are studying geography and they can identify issues and know more than one way to classify (yay!) but you don't think that they could look at a map and name the four names that we give to separate parts of the ocean?

 

Of all the things kids have to remember, it seems that remembering 7 continents and 4 oceans (or 5) is so simple, I'm surprised it is an issue. :confused:

 

Okay, but now you've been told by several of us that we, or our kids, might not have known that information. So now you know that it is not uncommon to not know that. It may seem very common knowledge to you, but it is not to everyone. It doesn't make everyone else stupid or uneducated. There are probably things that seem common knowledge to me, that you may not know. Doesn't mean you're stupid either, just that our brains have retained different things.

[katilac]

I think there are about 5 different conversations/expectations being discussed here - - some people are working on the assumption that the kids couldn't NAME the continents and oceans, but it sounds like they had to both name them and label them on the map.

 

I can certainly name the continents. I can name the oceans, including the Southern Ocean, b/c my kids have learned them (and I definitely think we might be underestimating the importance of having recent reminders).

 

No way would I bet my house on being able to LABEL the oceans on a map, especially if I haven't looked it over recently. I'd definitely use the book to check if allowed to do so. Because the kids were allowed to use the book, we really don't know how they would have performed without it, right?

 

It's like when the newspapers get all huffy b/c some percent of high school seniors can't locate Iraq on the map (or Iran, back in the day). What does that even mean? They can't locate it on a marked map? An unmarked map? An unmarked world map, or an unmarked map of the Middle East?

 

Let me confess: dude, I think Iraq's freakin' hard to find on an unmarked map! It's not like being unable to locate the United States or Canada; it's a small country, surrounded by other small countries. If anyone (who isn't currently studying it) can locate the general area, I think that's pretty good. How many of the wrong answers are students confusing Iraq with Iran? I don't think that's a tragic sign of ignorance myself.

 

If I had to mark a map, and I were allowed to use the book, I'd certainly do so. I've verbally transposed the names of continents before (Asia for Africa), just like I tranpose the names of my kids; I'd hate to chance doing it in class if I could just as easily double-check myself. So, I'd check even if I felt confident.

[Laura Corin]

I probably couldn't name them off the top of my head either, and neither could my kids.

 

My boys can name the continents and oceans, but mostly because they have used some US materials. I think that British education (at least since I was a child, so this is not new) has less of a stress on the learning of lists. I remember, from my early school career, learning about climates and topographies, shading the tropical areas around the world, for example, to see what different areas have in common. I knew where the continents were but would have had to visualise a map of the world to try to list them.

 

How about in Australia?

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

Imagine having someone tell you you've won a trip to Europe and then having to figure out where you're going! Ditto for Asia, South America, Africa, etc.

 

We were talking about listing all the continents and oceans. I expect my children to know where the continents and oceans are, but not to be able to list them.

 

Laura

[Spy Car]

We put up a big world map recently over my sons bed. It been great because he he already knows were a quite a fair-portion of the nations are. We've started doing a semi-regular short Geo-quiz as part of the wind-down to bed-time, and he loves it. Our latest went:

 

Where's Kazakhstan?

Here

Correct! Pakistan?

Here?

Good. Ethiopia?

Here.

Right! Chile?

Here.

Excellent! Korea?

North or South? :lol:

 

Not bad for a 5.5 year old

 

Bill (who loved maps as a child...still does)

 

And there is only really one ocean.

[ElizabethB]

I took a semester of Russian in College. We had to learn what were then state/province type things in the U.S.S.R. and a few facts about each area. I grumbled about learning them at the time...a few years later they were all countries and I was the only one of my friends who could pronounce them all or knew anything about them!

 

I had forgotten some of the oceans until I looked them up to teach my daughter, that's when I also found out about the whole Oceania thing. Oceania, Pluto, regrouping, w as a a vowel (in things like ow and ew), there is a lot to keep up with. No one I know who doesn't homeschool or teach has any idea about Oceania or regrouping (I polled all my friends and family). I do "know" a lot of people who consider w a vowel, but I have phonics friends I correspond with.

 

I've always thought it was really just one big ocean, too.

[IsabelC]

Here is a good place to test yourself or practice your geography facts http://www.sporcle.com/games/category/geography

It doesn't have continents or oceans, but there are heaps of other options.

 

And all you people who haven't heard of the Southern Ocean, don't you have Petuna Seafood? (Fresh from the Southern Ocean!)

ETA Sorry, I had that jingle going around in my head and I never new they are just a small local outfit in my state lol

[Jumping In Puddles]

Is it really that shocking? I wouldn't be 100% sure of the oceans either, and if I were allowed to check in a book to make sure, as these students were, I would have done so. I think anyone who is shocked and astounded by this situation must not spend a lot of time around the general public.

 

Maybe I don't spend enough time around the general public and that's why I'm surprised. I spend time with neighbors, friends, family, and I work freelance in NYC but if you mean like a retail clerk may get to talk to dozens of strangers each day, then I definitely don't do that anymore and if I did maybe I wouldn't be so surprised. :)

 

I agree with you about checking in the book though. I would be 100% sure that if someone asked me to name the 5 oceans that I would be able to do that but I would still check the book if that was an option. I always like to check my answers.

 

Okay, but now you've been told by several of us that we, or our kids, might not have known that information. So now you know that it is not uncommon to not know that. It may seem very common knowledge to you, but it is not to everyone. It doesn't make everyone else stupid or uneducated. There are probably things that seem common knowledge to me, that you may not know. Doesn't mean you're stupid either, just that our brains have retained different things.

 

I absolutely agree that it doesn't make someone stupid or uneducated and I think I said that. I also bet you know common knowledge things that I don't know and you may be more educated than I am. Even though some have said knowing the oceans and continents is not common knowledge, I have pushed back a little because the first person who said that then went on to name them! I am not surprised at that at all. I don't expect someone who didn't study geography AT ALL (which is actually common) to know that and I don't think anyone who did study but forgot is stupid.

[Erica in PA]

Maybe I don't spend enough time around the general public and that's why I'm surprised. I spend time with neighbors, friends, family, and I work freelance in NYC but if you mean like a retail clerk may get to talk to dozens of strangers each day, then I definitely don't do that anymore and if I did maybe I wouldn't be so surprised. :)

 

 

I appreciate your clarification, and agree with you on most points. I still think you're overestimating how much geography most people know with confidence. Of my close family members, I would say that probably only my father in law and possibly one of my brother in laws would be so sure that they wouldn't even look at the book. I'm positive that my mom, mil, sister, both sils, and my other bil, would not know all of the oceans (maybe not even all the continents). The rest of the people in my extended family might or might not. Among our friends, I think there would be quite a few who couldn't label the map without looking at a book. I think you would be surprised to know how many people among your family and friends don't have this information on the tips of their tongues.

 

Maybe this would be a good topic for all of us to bring up for table talk at Thanksgiving dinner? Could you name all the continents and oceans, and label them on a map without referring to anything? ;) I think I might do that! :001_smile:

[unsinkable]

After thinking about it, if I were giving a job interview and I asked the applicant to name all the oceans and all the continents, and he/she had a book handy to verify his/her answer, and then didn't use the book, I would probably consider him/her blithe and I would count it against him/her.

 

And you'd say, "Hail to thee, blithe spirit! Go get a job somewhere else!"

 

:lol:

 

One of my fav words, blithe.

[unsinkable]

Nicely put. I am not too sure about the "duty to our fellow man" bit, but the point is well taken and it was nicely put.

 

Knowledge is rarely a waste of time especially when related to a topic as timeless as geography.

 

It is late here, in Europe, in a major city situated on one of Europe's great rivers, both of which are well worth knowing. Good night.

 

Now, for me, this is where geography is fun!

 

I've always wondered where pqr lives (not in a stalker way :tongue_smilie:).

 

So, now we have a major river/city combo.

 

Thames/London?

Seine/Paris?

Po/Venice?

 

Probably not. I thought he'd mentioned eastern Europe.

 

So I'm gonna go with...Vistula/Warsaw.

 

I LOVE geography!

 

unsinkable

who lives at the confluence of a major river and 2 inland seas

(I am using the definition of confluence loosely.)

[creekland]

 

Maybe this would be a good topic for all of us to bring up for table talk at Thanksgiving dinner? Could you name all the continents and oceans, and label them on a map without referring to anything? ;) I think I might do that! :001_smile:

 

I can guarantee that everyone in my extended family (except the preschoolers) will know. We DO talk about travel often around the dinner table and who's been where or going where. We've even talked about the addition of the Southern Ocean before - a couple of years back. I'm still amazed at the number of people that don't know the basics of geography, much less more in depth things. It truly is like the ABC's to us - and no one in our family is even remotely connected to a geography related job (retired music teachers (2), retired 4th grade teacher, Dollar Store manager, professional secretary for a medical sales agency, insurance rep, construction worker/owner, farmers (3), janitor for a school and then us with Civil Engineering + I substitute teach math/science at our local public high school). I guess that's why I view it as 'basic intelligence.'

 

This thread has really amazed me and I can't say it's been in a good way (for my opinion). I still am a staunch, "to each their own" believer, so if some prefer to not know their world, that's their right.

[zaichiki]

I think the main point is that this type of simple geography is commonly taught in US schools and reviewed often. I *know* that my child reviewed it in history class this year in the 6th grade. IMO, if the information was taught, the children should be able to handle the question. It doesn't take upper level thinking skills. It isn't remotely challenging.

 

I attended multiple elementary schools, as we moved around a lot. I've taught in 6 elementary schools in four states. My son now attends school for the first time. I have noticed, at ALL of these schools, that the oceans and continents are taught approx every two years beginning in 2nd/3rd grade. This is something that is reviewed a LOT. Yes: I would expect the kids to be able to answer that question correctly.

[zaichiki]

Knowledge is rarely a waste of time especially when related to a topic as timeless as geography.

 

Excellent point. I have to admit to being a fan of SWB's Well-Trained Mind. I think memorizing certain things trains the brain and only adds to the "hooks" and connections our brains can make.

[zaichiki]

I just replied to Peela's post, but you really don't think you could have labeled 4 oceans?

 

Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, Arctic (Southern, but you wouldn't know that one unless you studied recently and according to geographers it is not wrong to leave off the Southern Ocean)

 

My globe doesn't label a "Southern Ocean" at all. Granted it is probably about 10 years old... It *does* label a North and South Atlantic, a North and South Pacific, the Indian, and the Arctic.

 

I think I remember that some countries' schools teach that there are 5 continents (Eurasia and N/S America being one country each). Right? I know the US teaches 7 continents.

Edited November 24, 2009 by zaichiki

[MBM]

No job of which I am aware would require you to memorize the names of the oceans.

 

Marine biologists, volcanologists. Coast Guard and Navy officers would (should!) know. Imagine someone in charge of a nuclear submarine who did not know the name of the ocean they were in. Ack! Then there are the Captain Merrill Stubings of the world, and last but not least ~ geographers!

 

Memorizing the oceans is more like memorizing the state bird, or state flag. It is a bit less useful than memorizing which months have 30 days or the dates of the solstices and equinoxes. It is like memorizing ALL Newton's laws of motion, or the exact conversion formula from feet to Meters, or the value of pi to 4 decimal places, only, again, knowing ALL oceans is less useful. Can you answer those very basic questions? How much of an advantage in life do you have if you can? I would say "a negligible advantage". On the other hand, "Can you use Newton's laws or pi? Do you know the signifigance of a solstice or equinox? Given the formula, can you convert from one system of measurement to another?" are questions whose answers are valuable life skills.

 

 

Am I safe in assuming you are not an E.D. Hirsch fan? LOL. For those of you not familiar with him, he maintains that having a base of knowledge common to one's culture helps with comprehending that which is spoken or written.

[HRAAB]

My 20 year old dd came by last night. (To use the washing machine and check out my fridge! ;)) I quizzed her. She correctly named all the continents and oceans and got 42 out of the 50 state capitals correct. She learned this probably somewhere around 3rd/4th grade.

 

Whew! I was starting to fret about it.

 

Now if I keep quizzing her every time she comes over, she might check out her local laundromat.

[Spy Car]

I've always wondered where pqr lives (not in a stalker way :tongue_smilie:).

 

So, now we have a major river/city combo.

 

Thames/London?

Seine/Paris?

Po/Venice?

 

 

I'm thinking the "river" has to be the Danube.

 

Is the city Budapest, Bratislava, or Belgrade?

 

Bill

[Erica in PA]

I can guarantee that everyone in my extended family (except the preschoolers) will know. We DO talk about travel often around the dinner table and who's been where or going where. We've even talked about the addition of the Southern Ocean before - a couple of years back. I'm still amazed at the number of people that don't know the basics of geography, much less more in depth things. It truly is like the ABC's to us - and no one in our family is even remotely connected to a geography related job (retired music teachers (2), retired 4th grade teacher, Dollar Store manager, professional secretary for a medical sales agency, insurance rep, construction worker/owner, farmers (3), janitor for a school and then us with Civil Engineering + I substitute teach math/science at our local public high school). I guess that's why I view it as 'basic intelligence.'

 

This thread has really amazed me and I can't say it's been in a good way (for my opinion). I still am a staunch, "to each their own" believer, so if some prefer to not know their world, that's their right.

 

Wow, I wonder if you know how rude your comments sound. To continue to assert that a certain piece of information is generally known by everyone, when people have repeatedly said in this thread, "I wouldn't have known that" and to marvel that people did not know it, is very bad manners. *That* should be "like the ABCs," in my opinion.

 

ETA: This conversation is bumming me out. I'm going to go spend time with my kids and get ready for Thanksgiving!!

Edited November 24, 2009 by Erica in PA

[unsinkable]

I'm thinking the "river" has to be the Danube.

 

Is the city Budapest, Bratislava, or Belgrade?

 

Bill

 

I think you are right about the river.

 

The Danube is one big @$$ river, :lol:.

[hornblower]

I'm thinking the "river" has to be the Danube.

 

Is the city Budapest, Bratislava, or Belgrade?

 

Bill

 

 

LOL, the B's were my guesses too. If I had to guess just one I'd go with Budapest.

[Jorsay]

Marine biologists, volcanologists. Coast Guard and Navy officers would (should!) know. Imagine someone in charge of a nuclear submarine who did not know the name of the ocean they were in. Ack! Then there are the Captain Merrill Stubings of the world, and last but not least ~ geographers!

 

I beg to differ. I don't believe that any of those jobs list memorizing the oceans as a requirement.

 

 

 

Am I safe in assuming you are not an E.D. Hirsch fan? LOL. For those of you not familiar with him, he maintains that having a base of knowledge common to one's culture helps with comprehending that which is spoken or written.

 

I have no idea who he is. I suppose this is another one of my shortcomings that I should be ashamed to admit. :lol:

 

I think you are missing one of my points, which is, having a base of knowledge does not include memorizing ALL the minute details of all seldom used lists (such as is done by a jeopardy expert) or, I'll add, keeping up with the latest fads in academics (such as adding a new ocean or a new vowel or changing the names from AD and BC to ACE and BCE:thumbdown:). Instead, in many cases such as this one, I think it is sufficient to be familiar with a list, but not have it memorized perfectly (i.e. If someone says, you just won a trip to the southern ocean! You can reply "Oh, that must be in the south perhaps beneath the pacific. I think I'll look on a map.) You have a limited amount of time and energy. Spending your energy keeping up with minutia on one topic limits you from learning elsewhere. Though I didn't know about the Southern Ocean, there are lists that I would consider to be quite basic, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that others didn't know them. For instance: dates like the battle of marathon, the death of Alexander and Caesar, the battle of actium, the traditional founding and fall of Rome, the french revolution, equations and concepts like Newton's laws of motion, Bernoulli's equations, uniform accelerated motion, the first two lines of the periodic table including the atomic masses, number nipples on a cat or a cow, that a platypus has poisonaous nails, simple quotes from Shakespeare etc... These are all incredibly basic things. My first instinct is to think that one is somewhat uneducated if they don't know ALL these basic things, but with a little reflection I can imagine that it's understandable and even to be expected given that I couldn't name the 5 oceans. There are many other basic things that people with no college or even no highschool degree may have committed to memory that I have not; things that I would be embarassed t admit. (the spelling of simple words for example:lol:) Yet, I know that if I spent my time memorizing things that YOU or Mr. Hirsch think I ought to know or be disgraced, then I wouldn't be nearly as well educated as I am.

[LibraryLover]

Agreed. My husband's school superintendent stated their goal is just to expose children to concepts and not teach to mastery.

 

My husband's first graders know a ton of stuff. It's just all worthless bits of movie trivia.

 

 

Wait! Are you saying that the fact I can pretty much recite the entire script of Finding Nemo is worhless?? Please. Just keep swimming, swimming.

 

Those first graders are "Probably Am-erican!"

[MBM]

I beg to differ. I don't believe that any of those jobs list memorizing the oceans as a requirement.

 

It is a requirement. I say this as someone married to a former military officer and friend to some in the fields I mentioned. :)

I have no idea who he is. I suppose this is another one of my shortcomings that I should be ashamed to admit. :lol:

 

No need to be ashamed. I thought you'd be aware of him especially if you're a published author in the field of education. Hirsch has published a number of books about education.

 

Yet, I know that if I spent my time memorizing things that YOU or Mr. Hirsch think I ought to know or be disgraced, then I wouldn't be nearly as well educated as I am.

 

Okay, well, I am not saying you are disgraceful at all. :confused:

 

Hirsch's point is that knowing basic, fundamental information common to a person's culture (<---that is important) can be beneficial to society as a whole. He doesn't mean we should teach obscure facts but that having basic background information tucked away in our brains helps us to easily comprehend more fully when that information crops up in news articles, literature, speeches, etc.

 

I don't want my comments to offend. IMO, this thread is really about different ideologies.

 

Now I have to run and get ingredients for thumbprint cookies. :auto: I'd offer y'all some but you'll have to settle for popcorn. :lurk5:

 

[zaichiki]

I thought you'd be aware of him especially if you're a published author in the field of education. Hirsch has published a number of books about education.

 

That was my very *first* thought after reading the pp's last post. E.D. Hirsch IS well-known in the field of education. You know... Core Knowledge and all... There was even a recent trend in Core Knowledge Schools...

[pqr]

1. I didn't know for sure that there were only 4 OR 5 oceans. I had never heard of the Southen Ocean. So, if you follow your 'assumption', then I don't have the 'basic intelligence' to work for you. I believe that demonstrates that such an assumption is specious.

 

2. I would hope that, no matter how confident your civil engineers are, they don't rely upon their memory for the important constants when building bridges and other structures. No matter how well they THINK they know them, I hope they will verify their memories by checking the book or computer. It's just 'basic intelligence' to do so.:001_smile: They do check and double check their constants, don't they? I mean, wouldn't that be the height of hubris if one of your engineers said "No need for me to verify the shear stress modulus for that steel because that would be a disgrace."

 

You are comparing apples to lawn chairs.

The mathematical equivalent of knowing the oceans and continents is knowing the multiplication tables.

The geographic equivalent of the "shear stress" for a particular steel is more akin to knowing the volume of water passing a point in the Ganges during the first week of Monsoon season.

One I expect everyone to know the other I expect people to look up, especially if lives are involved. As I said apples and lawn chairs.

[Jorsay]

Now I have to run and get ingredients for thumbprint cookies. :auto:

 

 

 

You mean you don't have the ingredients memorized!!:D

[Jorsay]

It is a requirement. I say this as someone married to a former military officer and friend to some in the fields I mentioned. :)

 

 

 

I don't believe that it's a requirement for the job. It is probably assumed that anyone with the qualifications for the job knows the oceans, but it is not likely that anyone ever tests an applicant by asking them "Name all the oceans and look in this book if you need to." The point being, that if you are interested in these fields you will know the oceans without trying to memorize them.

[pqr]

I don't believe that it's a requirement for the job. It is probably assumed that anyone with the qualifications for the job knows the oceans, but it is not likely that anyone ever tests an applicant by asking them "Name all the oceans and look in this book if you need to." The point being, that if you are interested in these fields you will know the oceans without trying to memorize them.

 

 

I am afraid you are wrong. Serendipitously, I happened to be on the phone with a friend and former naval officer when my wife mentioned your post and asked him.

 

His words:

 

"We have something called an Officer of the Deck board where we quiz the young officer to make sure he is qualified to drive a ship. I have personally asked young officers the names of all the oceans plus major gulfs, bays, islands and underwater features to ensure his readiness. Fail the board too many times and we eventually separate an officer from the Navy"

 

seems to me that it is a requirement of the job.

[Jorsay]

That was my very *first* thought after reading the pp's last post. E.D. Hirsch IS well-known in the field of education. You know... Core Knowledge and all... There was even a recent trend in Core Knowledge Schools...

 

I never heard of him. Nor have I heard of many other published authors in educational fields. There are hundreds of educational fields and perhaps millions of authors. Why would I want to know what each one has to say. Even many of those in my own specialties. So what? Such knowledge is generally useful for impressing friends at soirees and symposiums and not much else. I wrote a physics book among others and I don't recall Einstein, Hawkings, Feynman, or many others published in the field of physics ever commenting on my book. As a matter of fact, I am confident that they never heard of me. Should THEY be ashamed?

[Jorsay]

I am afraid you are wrong.

 

I am sure that I could miss that question every single time and answer all the others correctly and still get the job. Alternatively, I could miss that question once and then I would know it every time there after. Memorizing it to get the job would not be particularly helpful.

[OnTheBrink]

You mean you don't have the ingredients memorized!!:D

 

She didn't say she had to look them up, she said she was going out to buy them. :lol:

[Jorsay]

I am afraid you are wrong. Serendipitously, I happened to be on the phone with a friend and former naval officer when my wife mentioned your post and asked him.

 

His words:

 

"We have something called an Officer of the Deck board where we quiz the young officer to make sure he is qualified to drive a ship. I have personally asked young officers the names of all the oceans plus major gulfs, bays, islands and underwater features to ensure his readiness. Fail the board too many times and we eventually separate an officer from the Navy"

 

seems to me that it is a requirement of the job.

 

After giving this some thought, I realized how ridiculous this is. You are saying that a Naval Officer is walking around asking young officers "Name all the oceans off the top of your head right now!! Go!" and the officer replies "Ah, OK, give me a second. Let me see, there is Atlantic and Pacific. Hold on, don't tell me. I know, I know. Indian. Now what is that other one, Oh yes, Arctic!" "Are you sure that's all there are?" "Ah, I think so." "I'm sorry, you forgot the Southern again. You're fired." :lol:

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Ok-seriously-there are people here who think that ship captains, navigators, oceanographers, meteorologists and people with similar occupations would still have their jobs if they didn't know the names of the continents and oceans?

 

Of course it is a requirement. If you can't pass the multitude of different licensing exams (for lack of a better term) then you aren't going to be permitted to have this sort of employment.

 

They have changed names of various countries, capitals, continents and oceans since I was a school aged child. They even declassified a planet and changed B.C. to B.C.E. In the end it doesn't matter if I like these changes or agree with them, I still need to know them and if I don't then I am the one making the mistake and I take the time to learn new terminology. My education level, job, income, or any other criteria are just irrelevant. There is no need to defend getting something wrong on such a quiz, that is like defending ignorance. I plan on just trying to keep up with these sorts of changes.

[mirth]

My dh teaches social studies in our local high school. Yesterday, 21 out of 23 9th graders DID NOT know all the continents and oceans. Yes, you read that correctly! What is going on in the world?

 

I do not find this sad in it of itself. What I would find sad is if they could instead instantly name all the continents and oceans in World of Warcraft (or got them confused with real ones).

[Jorsay]

Ok-seriously-there are people here who think that ship captains, navigators, oceanographers, meteorologists and people with similar occupations would still have their jobs if they didn't know the names of the continents and oceans?

 

I for one. If you want to my statement out of context it sounds ridiculous, but it is absolutely true that no ship captain, navigator, etc... woud be fired if he couldn't list all the oceans. You are assuming that because he can't list them, he is somehow stupid in other ways, like he can't find them, he can't look them up, he can't read a map, etc...

 

Of course it is a requirement. If you can't pass the multitude of different licensing exams (for lack of a better term) then you aren't going to be permitted to have this sort of employment.

 

They have changed names of various countries, capitals, continents and oceans since I was a school aged child. They even declassified a planet and changed B.C. to B.C.E. In the end it doesn't matter if I like these changes or agree with them, I still need to know them [

] Why do you NEED to know ALL of them? to be popular at parties and on internet forums. How could you possibly know all of them?

and if I don't then I am the one making the mistake and I take the time to learn new terminology. [

] Of course the point is that that much time does not exist.

My education level, job, income, or any other criteria are just irrelevant. There is no need to defend getting something wrong on such a quiz, that is like defending ignorance. [

] No. I am defending intelligence. It is intelligent to verify things. It is intelligent not to occupy your time with learning minutia at the expense of learning what is important to you.

I plan on just trying to keep up with these sorts of changes.

I am picturing you spending your time combing the internet frantically recording and desparately tying to commit to memory ALL the updates that occur in knowledge in all topics.

 

I am not arguing against knowledge or memorization. I am arguing against the ideas of those who put on aires and pretend their 5 year old is smarter than some adults because their 5 year old knows ALL the oceans, those who deride others who haven't memorized near valueless minutia, those who deride others who wisely verify their knowledge. I am arguing against pseudo-intellectuality. (did I spell that right?)

[Mrs Mungo]

I think it's ridiculous to assert that nobody should bother memorizing the continents and the oceans. Seriously, put together there are only 12. That cannot possibly take more than 10 minutes to memorize.

 

I posted several fun puzzle-game style links in the other thread but there are lots of great lesson plans, geography songs and other tools out there to memorize countries, capitols and such.

 

And yes, I do think less of people who don't know that Egypt is part of Africa or that Australia is in the Southern Hemisphere. I think some things *are* basic knowledge.

 

Granted, if you lived in many places you'd only have 6 continents to memorize because many European countries count North and South America as one continent.

[Perry]

It is intelligent not to occupy your time with learning minutia at the expense of learning what is important to you.

 

I think most of us would agree with this statement. Where we differ is in what you consider to be minutiae. To me, knowing the continents and oceans isn't anywhere close to minutiae.