I finished reading the blog that inspired the submission poll.........

[Joanne]

And all I can say is "wow".

 

It does exemplify many of the issues of concern I have with the QF/patriarchy sub-culture.

 

I realize her story is not everyone's story.

[tricia]

What book was that? The one from Debi Pearl called Created to Be His Helpmeet. If that's the one I'll add my 2 cents. I have that and I've read it and I love it. Again, as you say, it isn't for everyone. But is for me!!

[ThatCyndiGirl]

What book was that? The one from Debi Pearl called Created to Be His Helpmeet. If that's the one I'll add my 2 cents. I have that and I've read it and I love it. Again, as you say, it isn't for everyone. But is for me!!

 

 

You DO realize that the book you love advocates staying with a pedophile and the abuse of babies and staying with an abusive husband as long as "the marks he made on you fade within two hours"??? :confused:

 

I mean, a part of me wants to say "to each her own", but.....abuse? really?

[asta]

Joanne said blog, not book.

 

I find it sad that women would be feel encouraged by anything that encouraged physical or verbal abuse directed towards them. Teaching someone to graciously accept abuse is not correct in my worldview.

 

Worldview. I'd never heard of that term before coming here.

 

 

a

[Heather in Neverland]

You DO realize that the book you love advocates staying with a pedophile and the abuse of babies and staying with an abusive husband as long as "the marks he made on you fade within two hours"??? :confused:

 

 

Holy moly...I have never read that book. Does it really say that? :svengo:

 

 

ETA: Sorry Joanne, I did not mean to hijack your thread!

[Joanne]

It's from a blog: no longer quivering

What book was that? The one from Debi Pearl called Created to Be His Helpmeet. If that's the one I'll add my 2 cents. I have that and I've read it and I love it. Again, as you say, it isn't for everyone. But is for me!!

 

Tricia,

 

I believe that book (and their one on child training) to be dangerous. I can and do "glean" from books where I don't agree with everything. However, reading, supporting or "gleaning" from a book that emerges from the mindset of staying with an abuser or child molester is very unhealthy.

 

Anything of value in their books that are worthy of learning are available elsewhere without the danger.

[Mrs Mungo]

The Pearls is a topic that is usually banned from discussion on parenting boards, even boards with perfectly reasonable political debates. But, yes, I would think a woman extremely sad and misguided if she stayed with a pedophile who abused her children. In fact, if she chose to stay with him and he harmed his child or another child, I would consider her complicit and hope that she would be charged along with her spouse.

[Audrey]

The Pearls is a topic that is usually banned from discussion on parenting boards, even boards with perfectly reasonable political debates. But, yes, I would think a woman extremely sad and misguided if she stayed with a pedophile who abused her children. In fact, if she chose to stay with him and he harmed his child or another child, I would consider her complicit and hope that she would be charged along with her spouse.

:iagree:

[Nestof3]

You DO realize that the book you love advocates staying with a pedophile and the abuse of babies and staying with an abusive husband as long as "the marks he made on you fade within two hours"??? :confused:

 

I mean, a part of me wants to say "to each her own", but.....abuse? really?

 

Can you please tell me which book refers to the marks made on a woman's face? I have read many of the Pearl's books, took some good info (about tying heart strings) and got rid of the books, but I never saw this one.

 

Thanks!

[asta]

Yes, we are a sad, sad lot. Poor, misguided us.

 

:iagree:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Can you please tell me which book refers to the marks made on a woman's face? I have read many of the Pearl's books, took some good info (about tying heart strings) and got rid of the books, but I never saw this one.

 

Thanks!

 

 

It was in the Helpmeet book. Not "marks on your face", marks on you and the children FADE within two hours. Apparently that is their acceptable time for abuse.

 

Sorry I derailed the thread. The Pearls are DANGEROUS and I cringe when I hear people defend them and their abusive teaching. I posted that response thinking that maybe didn't know about their more controversial (dangerous!) teachings.

 

To Joanne: yes, I read that blog, too sometime during the second to last thread. Appalling, but....I recall similar teachings from my time in the church. :glare:

[katemary63]

As a victim of child sexual abuse for more then 16 years, perpetrated on me by my own biological father, I find this quote, taken from the Pearl's own website and copied below, to be not only heinous, but outrageously naive, uneducated, and immature. There could be no bigger betrayal by a mother of her children then to "stand by" the man who sexually molested them, a horrific act that would effectively leave the children (however grown) as orphans.

 

I do agree with the Pearls that God hates divorce in all circumstances. But in their immaturity, they fail to understand that there are many, many things God hates far worse then divorce, while still hating divorce at the same time. I unhesitatingly present child sexual abuse to be one of those things. They are desperately trying to find acceptable ways to deny the validity of ANY divorce and in so doing, come across as fools.

 

And before you think that I just don't understand, I'll tell you that I am a conservative, born again, Christian of over 25 years. Christ has healed me completely of the effects of my devastating childhood and helped me to forgive my earthly father. I am not bitter. I am not angry. I am heathy and happy in my life, family and marriage. I have read all the verses and studied the Bible in the area of divorce and wifely submission. And with that said, if my mother had chosen to "stand by" my father, even while acknowledging what he did, and continued to be married to him, I would have considered it a betrayal beyond imagination, a continuation of my abuse and a complete abdication of her role as my mother. I would have considered it a victory for the dark side.

 

Each time I read this quote, my jaw drops and I am rendered shocked and speachless. I fear for anyone who follows the advice of these people.

 

Michael Pearl: "But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception."

Edited November 21, 2009 by katemary63

[Sputterduck]

The Pearls make me sick and it sickens me that people actually follow them. I hate to think how much abuse may be being overlooked or perpetrated by their followers. And I do think that God is pissed as hell at them.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Its the "have him do 10 to 20 years" that always just astounds me when I read that quote of Michael Pearl's.

 

So glib. As if the victim gets to sentence the perp.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

DulcimerAmy, I always thought that, too. Like the judge is going to say to the wife, "So, how long would you like him to stay in prison?" shyeahright.

 

I do not think that "all Pearl followers are abusive". not at all. I hope that they took the few nuggets of good and tossed the baby-hitting, wife-beating, pedophile-embracing junk.

 

I mean, when I read about tomato staking I thought, "in the absence of punishment, this is pretty good!" (staying close by them/having them stay near you to correct behaviour. I just don't agree with the "whack 'em when they step outta' line" part.)

 

Yes, you CAN take the good and leave the bad, but there is that whole, "aligning yourself with bad people/ideas" thing.

 

Back to the nolongerquivering site: Her pain is darn near palpable. And, in reading her story.....one can understand why.

 

I agree that she doesn't piece together "my daughter attempted suicide and it is the fault of the Quiverfull movement", but that doesn't mean that her words are completely without merit.

[Joanne]

Michael Pearl: "But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception."

 

About the oversized part; God did and does not hate my divorce. Divorce as in the piece of paper that signifies the end of the legal binding marriage. He hates the marriage that made the divorce necessary.

 

The advice of the Pearls' and similar "God hates divorce" advocates serves ONLY to be a contributing factor in more abuse.

 

In fact, I find Mr. Pearl's quote about to be like psychological rape.

[Joanne]

Back to the nolongerquivering site: Her pain is darn near palpable. And, in reading her story.....one can understand why.

 

I agree that she doesn't piece together "my daughter attempted suicide and it is the fault of the Quiverfull movement", but that doesn't mean that her words are completely without merit.

 

No, the written story kinda stops. But the progressing story and the torture under the name of submission/patriarchy that oldest child suffered makes my heart hurt.

[CAMom]

I do not think that "all Pearl followers are abusive". not at all. I hope that they took the few nuggets of good and tossed the baby-hitting, wife-beating, pedophile-embracing junk.

 

 

Really? The Pearls advocate "wife-beating?" I'd heard of the other stuff before but not that.

 

I read a few articles by Michael Pearl several years ago and could not stomach them. I refused to read their books because I strongly disagree with some key points of their theology but this is something I'd never seen asserted before.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Yes, Ronette, that was part of his assertion, that if your husband hits you or the children and "leaves marks that last for more than two hours" then you can call the police.

 

I meant the "generic you", not......YOU.

[Colleen]

I would think a woman extremely sad and misguided if she stayed with a pedophile who abused her children. In fact, if she chose to stay with him and he harmed his child or another child, I would consider her complicit and hope that she would be charged along with her spouse.

Indeed.

Each time I read this quote, my jaw drops and I am rendered shocked and speachless.

Yes. And it's even more disturbing when we hear people agree with, justify, or brush aside such...garbage. To put it politely.

[Home'scool]

Michael Pearl: "But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception."

 

Wait ..... whoa .... sputter. .... some people actually read this and still support/follows this guy??? I just ..... no, it can't be possible. It CAN"T!! What is the matter with people!?!?!?

 

Sigh ... perhaps I will be able to formulate a well thought out response to this inane quote later, but right now I am having a very visceral reaction to the idea that people read this stuff and "love it"!!

[katemary63]

Wait ..... whoa .... sputter. .... some people actually read this and still support/follows this guy??? I just ..... no' date=' it can't be possible. It CAN"T!! What is the matter with people!?!?!?

 

Sigh ... perhaps I will be able to formulate a well thought out response to this inane quote later, but right now I am having a very visceral reaction to the idea that people read this stuff and "love it"!![/quote']

 

:iagree: Yes, and this quote is on their webstite TODAY. It isn't even that old. When you read something like this, you right away think it is from the '50s or something, but this was written in 1999 and is in a current article ON THEIR WEBSITE TODAY. So Obviously THEY don't have a problem with it and haven't , inspite of THE MANY COMPLAINTS I'M SURE THEY HAVE GOTTEN, rethought the wisdom of it. Notice how you are only to call the police IF the father is repentant. I guess if he is not repentant according to the mother (who's judgement is always crystal clear in a crisis like this..*insert sarcasm*), it wasn't a crime and can just be dealt with in family meetings?

 

Please, ladies, please, please THINK about the mental and spiritual ah....idiocy that must be present in the author of these words. Who would trust ANYTHING else he has ever said or written? You can't say to yourself, "well...in the case of child sexual abuse, he's wrong, but I love everything else he says...."!!! This couple is a menace and it breaks my heart that so many, good, well intentioned women are deceived by them. :sad:

[jazzyfizzle]

Michael Pearl: "But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception."

 

Good grief!! Who are these fools?? I have never read this garbage but will go try to find it. Please dont' tell me these people made money off this trash- but I can absolutely already guess they did. :ack2:

:cursing:

[jazzyfizzle]

Indeed.Yes. And it's even more disturbing when we hear people agree with, justify, or brush aside such...garbage. To put it politely.

 

Wow, no kidding. :iagree:

[sunflowerlady]

And all I can say is "wow".

 

It does exemplify many of the issues of concern I have with the QF/patriarchy sub-culture.

 

I realize her story is not everyone's story.

 

I was thinking of posting about this also. I was up until all hours of the night last night reading her blog. It is fascinating.

 

Although I am not QF, and have only one child, I can see how I have been influenced my so much of the same things that she talks about. I can't even go into it here, but I have had real issues from wanting to be like these holy, godly, Vision Forum type homeschool Christian families. It has become unhealthy for me and my family in many ways. None of the issues have to do with my dh. He is a good man.:) It is all from me buying into so much of the "culture" that she talks about on her blog.

 

Dh has no idea about Vision Forum, patriarchy, etc. :001_smile: When I would get their tapes and ask dh to listen to them, his eyes would glaze over. LOL

He had no interest at all. Fortunately.

 

I am done with it. My eyes are opening and I am relieved to see that I do not have to feel inferior and guilty anymore.

 

I am glad someone posted a link to her blog.

[Holly IN]

sues from wanting to be like these holy, godly, Vision Forum type homeschool Christian families. It has become unhealthy for me and my family in many ways.

Dh has no idea about Vision Forum, patriarchy, etc.v

 

 

We like the Vision Forum stuff but not some of it. DH looked at their stuff in the catalog that we get every year and pointed out the ones he felt is not allowed in our house. The ones he pointed were the patriarchial books, modesty books and the fathers/daughter books. He is very leery about the father/daughter books. He agrees with some of the mindset of them but not all. He believes that girls should go to college, should be on their own if they are capable...so on it goes.

 

Some stuff we agree on but not all. DH refuse to let our boys read some of the patriarchial stuff. He doesn't want our boys to believe that they are over their "future"wife.

 

I always tell him to take the good and leave the rest. He said he will if we can borrow but doesn't want to pay money to their ministry to further their cause for the Patriarchial movement. We do agree with the quiverfull mindset but not the Patricarchy movement. Two very different things.

 

Holly

[Crimson Wife]

I can certainly understand where they're coming from, but I do feel that many ex-QF women throw the baby out with the bathwater. They can't separate out the horribly misogynistic interpretation of Scripture they used to follow from what is true. So they just reject all of it. It makes me very sad to see them rejecting Christianity because of their terrible experience with one extremist version of the faith. :sad:

[Impish]

In reading the quote from Michael Pearl, I can't help but wonder if Wolf's aunt is a follower of his/theirs.

 

His uncle molested his daughters while they were growing up. As adults, they reported it. He went for a plea deal, spent minimal amount of time in jail, and was home. His wife stayed by his side the entire time.

 

My MIL (the uncle is her brother) called, all angry because the daughters won't have anything to do with their father OR mother. Went on about them not being 'very Christian' and forgiving him...and questioned why they would be upset with their mother :glare:

 

She also called bragging...she had brought her brother to visit their sister who has Alzheimer's. Her sister had HATED their brother and refused to have anything to do with him because of the molestation. MIL was gleeful that her sister no longer remembered her hatred of their brother and they 'had a lovely visit'. I was completely disgusted to the point of physical illness that she would do that to a vulnerable woman. If her sister HAD remembered, she would have ended up needing chemical, if not physical, restraints. But it was all done in the guise of 'forgiveness' and 'being Christian'. MIL is always on a conquest to be the 'best' Christian, it seems. She talked about bringing her brother to visit us, and I told her that he would not be allowed in our home, ever. Wolf was seriously ticked when he found out that she was giving him copies of pics of our kids, wondering if he was using them to fuel some sick fantasy. She didn't understand (or claimed not to) why we'd have a problem with this uncle visiting :001_huh:

 

I seriously wonder if she and her SIL are followers of the Pearl's. I know she's SDA, but know nothing about the Pearl's...first I heard of them was here on the forums.

[ereks mom]

 

Michael Pearl: "But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception."

 

Divorce is NOT the unpardonable sin.

[ereks mom]

And all I can say is "wow".

 

It does exemplify many of the issues of concern I have with the QF/patriarchy sub-culture.

 

I realize her story is not everyone's story.

 

:iagree:

[asta]

Divorce is NOT the unpardonable sin.

 

Nope. Just ask my mom.

 

As I've stated elsewhere on the forum (and I recognize that not everyone believes that the RCC is the last word on all things), my mom got her divorce sanctioned by Rome.

 

Her divorce. Not an annulment, a divorce. And she was not ex-communicated.

 

Then again, she's a stud.

 

 

a

[mominbc]

As a strong conservative Christian it's hard for me to see so many following these clearly unbiblical teachings. Yes, God hates divorce but he does not forbid it. What about Matthew 5:32 and 19:9 "whoever divorces his wife for any other reason EXCEPT sexual immorality.." I think sexual abuse is the worst kind of sexual immorality. It seems to me there is no mercy for children but roll out the mercy carpet for monsterous husbands!

[Rosie_0801]

Who would trust ANYTHING else he has ever said or written? You can't say to yourself, "well...in the case of child sexual abuse, he's wrong, but I love everything else he says...."!!!

 

You can, actually. Sorting through information to take what appeals and discard what doesn't is quite normal. We do that sort of thing every day. Good advice is good advice even if it comes from a less than reputable source. It isn't about trusting what the guy says, it's about reading what he says and comparing it to your own thoughts. I don't think the horoscopes in the paper are reputable sources, but if I happen to be reading mine and it says something about family arguments, I take that as a reminder to focus my attention on family dynamics. Not because the stars are aligned against us and thank goodness those horoscope writing people are here to interpret them and save us, but because family harmony is important and deserves attention. Likewise, if this Pearl guy writes an essay on the importance of table manners, I'm going to agree with him, even if I think he's a nutter. I don't have to follow all his methods of teaching table manners, if I think they are crazy, but crazy people are capable of good ideas.

 

People should be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

Rosie

[Joanne]

You can, actually. Sorting through information to take what appeals and discard what doesn't is quite normal. We do that sort of thing every day. Good advice is good advice even if it comes from a less than reputable source. It isn't about trusting what the guy says, it's about reading what he says and comparing it to your own thoughts. I don't think the horoscopes in the paper are reputable sources, but if I happen to be reading mine and it says something about family arguments, I take that as a reminder to focus my attention on family dynamics. Not because the stars are aligned against us and thank goodness those horoscope writing people are here to interpret them and save us, but because family harmony is important and deserves attention. Likewise, if this Pearl guy writes an essay on the importance of table manners, I'm going to agree with him, even if I think he's a nutter. I don't have to follow all his methods of teaching table manners, if I think they are crazy, but crazy people are capable of good ideas.

 

People should be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

Rosie

 

Rosie, do you really believe that a person who advocates continuing in marriage with an abuser and/or CHILD MOLESTER has anything of value, origniality, uniqueness or that can't be gotten elsewhere? Would you support a person like that with money, time, etc?

 

Really?

 

I had to get a copy of To Train Up a Child for an upcoming paper in school. I made SURE to buy it used because I do not want them to profit in any way from me and my hard earned funds.

 

 

I can certainly understand where they're coming from, but I do feel that many ex-QF women throw the baby out with the bathwater. They can't separate out the horribly misogynistic interpretation of Scripture they used to follow from what is true. So they just reject all of it. It makes me very sad to see them rejecting Christianity because of their terrible experience with one extremist version of the faith.

 

Yes, it's an very human and common behavioral experience to go to another extreme (cultish faith to no claimed faith). I suspect many of these persons will eventually, after processing, find some spirituality that fits them.

[Alison in KY]

Can you shed more light on the pedophile comments? I understand being upset at the quote, but I think I read earlier in the thread that some called him a pedophile. Has he been convicted of something, or accused?

 

Alison

[Joanne]

Nope.

 

I don't expect people to be perfect, but come on.

 

There are plenty of parenting, theological, and educational authors I don't completely agree with; some I even disagree with often. I can still separate the wheat/chaff and glean something useful. I understand the concept and do read beyond my comfort zone.

 

But to glean something useful from abuse perpetrating, abuse supporting cultish authors? Um. No.

[lionfamily1999]

Joanne, I'm pretty sure I know where you'll stand on this, but I'm curious and sometimes find your answers spur my thinking to a different direction.

 

Please note, I don't even know where I stand on this right now, just in a vague unsure confused sort of place...

 

As Christians we have a responsibility to forgive. I've known Christians, and been one myself, who have jumped for joy knowing that someone who had done truly terrible things found redemption and salvation. A gang leader, guilty of the murders of many people and the ****ation of many more, moves to Christ and my thought is, praise God! A theif, a drug addict, a prostitute, they accept Christ, they change and it's pretty easy, ime, to celebrate their change.

 

Now, we get to those that victimized children and I find a general abhorence, an idea of 'it doesn't matter, YOU can go to h***.' This is what stumps me. I could not imagine forgiving someone of that, not even if they did it to someone I didn't even know, not even if I only knew they'd done it, because they were on the sex offender list. I could not imagine opening my arms (shudder) to them, not to mention my church, my home!

 

How is this Christian behavior though? I can't imagine Christ accepting them!

 

Basically, what I want is scripture that says, those people should just be left to rot. Please.

[mominbc]

There are plenty of parenting, theological, and educational authors I don't completely agree with; some I even disagree with often. I can still separate the wheat/chaff and glean something useful. I understand the concept and do read beyond my comfort zone.

 

But to glean something useful from abuse perpetrating, abuse supporting cultish authors? Um. No.

 

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

About the oversized part; God did and does not hate my divorce. Divorce as in the piece of paper that signifies the end of the legal binding marriage. He hates the marriage that made the divorce necessary.

I agree that there are many people who do not divorce that do not have a successful marriage.

 

As a strong conservative Christian it's hard for me to see so many following these clearly unbiblical teachings. Yes, God hates divorce but he does not forbid it. What about Matthew 5:32 and 19:9 "whoever divorces his wife for any other reason EXCEPT sexual immorality.." I think sexual abuse is the worst kind of sexual immorality. It seems to me there is no mercy for children but roll out the mercy carpet for monsterous husbands!

What I find funny about these verses is that they very plainly say "Whoever divorces his wife." If we are so bent on taking the meaning literally down to the letter (that it must be fornication and only fornication as the cause) instead of taking the principle, then it would stand to reason that the words do not apply to wives deciding to divorce their husbands. If we take it down to the letter (only fornication or pornea), then there are forms of sexual abuse that do not count. Only intercourse between 2 people not married to each other is considered pornea.

[mominbc]

I agree that there are many people who do not divorce that do not have a successful marriage.

 

What I find funny about these verses is that they very plainly say "Whoever divorces his wife." If we are so bent on taking the meaning literally down to the letter (that it must be fornication and only fornication as the cause) instead of taking the principle, then it would stand to reason that the words do not apply to wives deciding to divorce their husbands.

 

I thought of that but if you look at the preceding verses in Matthew 19 this is the answer to the question "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" so that is why "wife" is used in the answer.

[Joanne]

Joanne, I'm pretty sure I know where you'll stand on this, but I'm curious and sometimes find your answers spur my thinking to a different direction.

 

Please note, I don't even know where I stand on this right now, just in a vague unsure confused sort of place...

 

As Christians we have a responsibility to forgive. I've known Christians, and been one myself, who have jumped for joy knowing that someone who had done truly terrible things found redemption and salvation. A gang leader, guilty of the murders of many people and the ****ation of many more, moves to Christ and my thought is, praise God! A theif, a drug addict, a prostitute, they accept Christ, they change and it's pretty easy, ime, to celebrate their change.

 

Now, we get to those that victimized children and I find a general abhorence, an idea of 'it doesn't matter, YOU can go to h***.' This is what stumps me. I could not imagine forgiving someone of that, not even if they did it to someone I didn't even know, not even if I only knew they'd done it, because they were on the sex offender list. I could not imagine opening my arms (shudder) to them, not to mention my church, my home!

 

How is this Christian behavior though? I can't imagine Christ accepting them!

 

Basically, what I want is scripture that says, those people should just be left to rot. Please.

 

I understand the dilemma; I've pondered it myself. I don't have that scripture for you.

 

What I do have is the absolute belief that pedophiles (and to a large extent, sexual predators in general) do not rehabilitate or (especially in the case of pedophiles), reach repentence.

 

I don't feel the acute conflict of Christian forgiveness vs. "go rot in hell" that you are feeling.

[lionfamily1999]

I understand the dilemma; I've pondered it myself. I don't have that scripture for you.

 

What I do have is the absolute belief that pedophiles (and to a large extent, sexual predators in general) do not rehabilitate or (especially in the case of pedophiles), reach repentence.

 

I don't feel the acute conflict of Christian forgiveness vs. "go rot in hell" that you are feeling.

The crux of it is, all things are possible through God. If God has redemed them, then.... Of course, if they aren't capable of repenting, that changes everything. That's why I won't touch the Pearl quote with a forty foot pole, I just do.not.know. Also, if you refuse to forgive, then aren't you saying, go to hell? This has been hippity hopping around in my head since Wednesday, when the situation was brought up (as a hypothetical) in Bible study.

[mominbc]

I understand the dilemma; I've pondered it myself. I don't have that scripture for you.

 

What I do have is the absolute belief that pedophiles (and to a large extent, sexual predators in general) do not rehabilitate or (especially in the case of pedophiles), reach repentence.

 

I don't feel the acute conflict of Christian forgiveness vs. "go rot in hell" that you are feeling.

 

I can't comment on pedophiles never reaching repentence as I have never studied this but I do believe that even though we should forgive does not mean we let down our guard and trust them. I will try not to rant but in my opinion this should not be an issue because pedophiles should not be released from jail, especially if research shows they do not rehabilitate!

[Free Indeed]

The one from Debi Pearl called Created to Be His Helpmeet. If that's the one I'll add my 2 cents. I have that and I've read it and I love it. Again, as you say, it isn't for everyone. But is for me!!

 

:iagree: :iagree:

[OnTheBrink]

I need an "I agree with mominbc" button, for both her posts in this thread.

 

God hates divorce, but He does allow it for sexual immorality. I think that would cover molesting a child.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I understand the dilemma; I've pondered it myself. I don't have that scripture for you.

 

What I do have is the absolute belief that pedophiles (and to a large extent, sexual predators in general) do not rehabilitate or (especially in the case of pedophiles), reach repentence.

 

I don't feel the acute conflict of Christian forgiveness vs. "go rot in hell" that you are feeling.

 

 

I have to agree. The Roman Catholic Church made the mistake of thinking that pedophile priests could mend their ways and look what happened:( I would like to think that pedophiles and abusers could reform and believe that there may be some who have reformed, but I would not be the one to stick around to see if they did reform if it involved my own marriage or family. Thank goodness I have not ever experienced these things. I would think God would want a person to leave an abusive relationship since we are also to love ourselves.

[Jenny in Atl]

Joanne said blog, not book.

 

I find it sad that women would be feel encouraged by anything that encouraged physical or verbal abuse directed towards them. Teaching someone to graciously accept abuse is not correct in my worldview.

 

Worldview. I'd never heard of that term before coming here.

 

 

a

 

:iagree:

 

The whole thing is so beyond my comprehension... just leaves me cold & sad.

[Joanne]

The crux of it is, all things are possible through God. If God has redemed them, then.... Of course, if they aren't capable of repenting, that changes everything. That's why I won't touch the Pearl quote with a forty foot pole, I just do.not.know. Also, if you refuse to forgive, then aren't you saying, go to hell? This has been hippity hopping around in my head since Wednesday, when the situation was brought up (as a hypothetical) in Bible study.

 

Research, anecdotal and real experience proves that pedophiles don't rehabilitate. I do believe that through God all things are possible (being one of those addicts you mentioned earlier). But I believe through God all things to the willing are possible. Pedophiles are not willing.

[Crimson Wife]

The crux of it is, all things are possible through God. If God has redeemed them, then.... Of course, if they aren't capable of repenting, that changes everything. That's why I won't touch the Pearl quote with a forty foot pole, I just do.not.know. Also, if you refuse to forgive, then aren't you saying, go to hell? This has been hippity hopping around in my head since Wednesday, when the situation was brought up (as a hypothetical) in Bible study.

 

Only God knows for certain whether an individual has truly repented in his/her heart. I do strongly believe that no sin is too horrendous for God to forgive IF the sinner repents. Given the uncertainty, I strongly believe a wife is justified in seeking legal separation from an abusive husband.

[Rosie_0801]

Rosie, do you really believe that a person who advocates continuing in marriage with an abuser and/or CHILD MOLESTER has anything of value, origniality, uniqueness or that can't be gotten elsewhere? Would you support a person like that with money, time, etc?

 

 

You already know the answer to that. I imagine you'd already know *my* answer to that. There is not a chance in Hades that I'd spend my money on those guys, and if I had enough time to waste on them I'd spend it doing something better for my soul, like watching grass grow. I don't believe they would have something useful (to me) to say that I couldn't find elsewhere. I did, in my previous post, say I thought they were nutters.

 

Now we have confirmed all that, shall we look again at the point I was making?

 

There are plenty of parenting, theological, and educational authors I don't completely agree with; some I even disagree with often. I can still separate the wheat/chaff and glean something useful. I understand the concept and do read beyond my comfort zone.

But to glean something useful from abuse perpetrating, abuse supporting cultish authors? Um. No.

 

The point being, as you said, you can read information you overall disagree with and take out any tidbits that seem useful. If the Pearls had something useful in their book, you would be capable of finding it, since you have reading comprehension skills. Presumably you would be capable of acting on it, because it is a good idea, even if you think the author is a dangerous nut-job. Presumably you wouldn't think "This guy is a freak so I'm going to ignore that one good idea, simply because it is his." Taking his one good idea is not going to hurt you, because you are thinking about what you are doing. You are not, to use the word Katemary used, *trust*ing him because he is saying it, you are trusting that hypothetical sensible thing because you trust yourself. I said what I said because I thought she was looking at it from a faith perspective, an "all or nothing" scenario, which I don't think it is. I was answering the question as she wrote it, in case it was a question and not "they are psychos and should never have been published" written in question form. I also wanted to put in a defense of those who said they like the books. "I like those books" doesn't necessarily translate to "I'm a poor sap without critical thinking skills who wants to live a life of down trodden suffering and I think the Pearls are so great I have a portrait of them on my wall so I can stare adoringly at them for at least an hour twice each day." "I like those books!" might just mean "I don't agree with everything they say, but I really appreciate certain points that were expressed in a way I hadn't heard before." As we are learning here, if we did not know before, wording makes all the difference.

 

Rosie

Edited November 22, 2009 by Rosie_0801