I finished reading the blog that inspired the submission poll.........

[keptwoman]

There is no accurate comparison to be made between alcholism and pedophelia.

 

Your experience of rehab and recovery from pedophelia and sexual predatorary behavior is contrary to everything I have experienced, read and studied.

 

They.do.not.rehabilititate. But they do lie.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then based on what I've read experienced and studied (sorry... comma key missing is a right pain)

[Lovedtodeath]

The Pearls sicken me.

:iagree:

 

My real life experience tells me sometimes they are willing and sometimes they do repent.

 

Now I still wouldn't trust them. I think that rehabilitation can happen but it's not CURE it's rehabilitation. There's a big difference. It's like an alcoholic. They may learn to live without alcohol but they should still avoid it. You'd have to be monumentally stupid to ever trust a person like that with your children but that's for the protection of both parties.

 

There is no way in hell I'd ever stay married to a man who did that.... the mere thought of laying beside a man like that in the bed makes me want to hurl. But I do believe that they SOMETIMES do understand the hurt they have caused and repent it.

 

Now I realise that some will vehemently disagree with me because of their own personal experience. But that's personal experience isn't it; everyone's is different.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I know of one that admitted what he did, confessed (was not caught), apologized to his daughter, was forgiven by his daughter and was still in her life last I knew. He could have been lying of course. I know of another that was caught and confessed but showed no remorse at all because he didn't actually rape her, the jerk. I never met the men (thank goodness), I know their daughters. Edited November 22, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Melissa in Australia]

Well, I know pedophiles who weren't excommunicated and are very welcome in their JW congregation. When brought to the attention of the elders they did exactly nothing.

 

 

:iagree: I have seen this as well. It was the last straw for me.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

:iagree: I have seen this as well. It was the last straw for me.

I knew of a situation in which I thought this was the case. I left for years for various reasons, this being one of the straws. I found out years later that the elders were right. (by talking to the girls that were questioned.) I am not saying this was the case in your examples. I don't know, of course.

[mrsrevmeg]

I am considered conservative to the extreme by my church (Southern Baptist). I borrowed a copy of Created to be His Helpmeet and was shocked. I told my husband that I felt like it was promoting husband-worship, like as in saying the husband can do no wrong. (he actually asked me why I kept reading)I stopped reading when i got to the part about the woman whose husband had affairs, visited with prostitutes and such and instead of leaving him..... she and their son showed up at his work one day holding up posters they had made that said #1 Dad. And the Pearls thought this was a good thing! That was not the first thing that shocked/sickened me. Their website is even worse. I saw things they were touting as "Godly parenting" that I consider abuse. (and I am a spanker) I had a big three or four page e-mail I was going to send, but my husband reminded me that I am not going to change their minds. They have built a business of their warped ideas. As long as people are buying, they are going to keep promoting.

2 Peter 1-3:1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

 

I will not read their books, visit their site, etc. They are false teachers who very much so promote things that I try to protect my children from. Edited November 22, 2009 by mrsrevmeg

[Mommyfaithe]

:iagree: So many in our homeschool circles were soooo into Bill Gothard. My husband said...RUN!!! I tried...I really tried...

 

I am so happy I have a husband who is wise and Godly, who knows when to say RUN!!!!!!

 

LOL!

Faithe...(Who has read most of the Pearl's stuff...but can never take any of what he says seriously...and can't stomach Debi at all....she makes me cringe.)

 

I was thinking of posting about this also. I was up until all hours of the night last night reading her blog. It is fascinating.

 

Although I am not QF, and have only one child, I can see how I have been influenced my so much of the same things that she talks about. I can't even go into it here, but I have had real issues from wanting to be like these holy, godly, Vision Forum type homeschool Christian families. It has become unhealthy for me and my family in many ways. None of the issues have to do with my dh. He is a good man.:) It is all from me buying into so much of the "culture" that she talks about on her blog.

 

Dh has no idea about Vision Forum, patriarchy, etc. :001_smile: When I would get their tapes and ask dh to listen to them, his eyes would glaze over. LOL

He had no interest at all. Fortunately.

 

I am done with it. My eyes are opening and I am relieved to see that I do not have to feel inferior and guilty anymore.

 

I am glad someone posted a link to her blog.

[SquirrellyMama]

This doesn't really "count". A pre-tean molesting another child would not be considered a pedophile.

 

Why doesn't that count? I was molested by a preteen when I was a young child and I can tell you that it hurts just the same.

[katemary63]

Why doesn't that count? I was molested by a preteen when I was a young child and I can tell you that it hurts just the same.

 

The poster said she knew of a "pedophile" who had prepented and rehabilitated. The person she spoke of was a preteen. As you can see in my previous post, a pre-teen could not be classified as a pedophile. I said that that case didn't "count" as a case of a pedophile who had been rehabilitated. I did not say that a preteen can not abuse someone.

[SquirrellyMama]

The poster said she knew of a "pedophile" who had prepented and rehabilitated. The person she spoke of was a preteen. As you can see in my previous post, a pre-teen could not be classified as a pedophile. I said that that case didn't "count" as a case of a pedophile who had been rehabilitated. I did not say that a preteen can not abuse someone.

 

I understand that you didn't say a teen couldn't abuse someone. I'm just not sure why a teen can't be a pedophile. Here are the definitions I found and I don't see any reason why pre teen can't fit this description especially if the victim is younger and if it is ongoing.

 

pedophilia: sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object

 

pedophile: one affected with pedophilia

Edited November 22, 2009 by kwiech
horrible spelling

[SquirrellyMama]

The poster said she knew of a "pedophile" who had prepented and rehabilitated. The person she spoke of was a preteen. As you can see in my previous post, a pre-teen could not be classified as a pedophile. I said that that case didn't "count" as a case of a pedophile who had been rehabilitated. I did not say that a preteen can not abuse someone.

 

Ok, now I see your post where you clarified why a pre teen is not considered by some to be a pedophile. I missed that one. Sorry.

[coffeefreak]

May God bless you, Dorinda, and your husband and children, as you continue to heal.

 

Thanks Mama Bear

:grouphug:

[lionfamily1999]

This doesn't really "count". A pre-tean molesting another child would not be considered a pedophile.

Ah well. I don't believe I called the person a pedophile, they molested a child... so... a child molestor and they repented and turned away. They were forgiven and aren't treated any differently for their past transgressions.

I am not saying that this applies to a wife and a child molester, but someone was looking for scriptures so I found some.

 

Some scriptures regarding the treatment of one who has committed grevious sin...

 

The practice I referenced was not regarding a pedophile. The man in the scriptures had an incestuous relationship with a woman... I believe it was his sister-in-law. He stopped the wrong doing and repented. I do not know of any pedophiles who have been excommunicated and welcomed back.

 

An article about such procedure (excommunication) within the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses. (includes many more scriptural references)

 

 

I posted the above quote and link for those who might want to find more scriptural references that have to do with repentance/forgiveness, it didn't necessarily apply to the situation.

It was his father's wife. That is the scripture I was thinking of when I first posted, mostly because it said to remove them. Thanks :grouphug:

[momtoboys]

Oh my word! I hadn't really heard of the Pearls, so I googled them. I'm appalled. They don't believe in spanking, they believe in abuse. This is a quote from their website:

 

I have told a child I was going to give him 10 licks. I count out loud as I go. After about three licks, leaving him in his position, I would stop and remind him what this is all about. I would continue slowly, still counting, stop again and tell him that I know it hurts and I wish I didn’t have to do it but that it is for his own good. Then I would continue slowly. Pretending to forget the count, I would again stop at about eight and ask him the number. Have him subtract eight from ten, (a little homeschooling) and continue with the final two licks. Then I would have him stand in front of me and ask him why he got the spanking. If his answer showed that he was rebellious and defiant, he would get several more licks. Again he would be questioned as to his offense. If he showed total submission, we put it all behind us, but if he were still rebellious, we would continue until he gave over his will.

 

ETA: I FIND THE ABOVE QUOTE SICKENING!

[smrtmama]

Oh my word! I hadn't really heard of the Pearls, so I googled them. I'm appalled. They don't believe in spanking, they believe in abuse. This is a quote from their website:

 

I have told a child I was going to give him 10 licks. I count out loud as I go. After about three licks, leaving him in his position, I would stop and remind him what this is all about. I would continue slowly, still counting, stop again and tell him that I know it hurts and I wish I didn’t have to do it but that it is for his own good. Then I would continue slowly. Pretending to forget the count, I would again stop at about eight and ask him the number. Have him subtract eight from ten, (a little homeschooling) and continue with the final two licks. Then I would have him stand in front of me and ask him why he got the spanking. If his answer showed that he was rebellious and defiant, he would get several more licks. Again he would be questioned as to his offense. If he showed total submission, we put it all behind us, but if he were still rebellious, we would continue until he gave over his will.

 

ETA: I FIND THE ABOVE QUOTE SICKENING!

 

I don't understand how any mother, or any decent human being, could ascribe to a set of beliefs where in you hit your child until you completely crush his will. Do you know what you call someone in total submission of spirit and will to another human being? A SLAVE.

[amy g.]

I can not imagine any parent treating their child that way.

[momtoboys]

I read the whole section on "the rod". . .It was awful. They recommend spanking until puberty or even up to age 18! At one point, they recommend giving up to 20 swats if a child is scared and hides (to get away from the spanking). . .It seriously was horrible to read!

[smrtmama]

I read the whole section on "the rod". . .It was awful. They recommend spanking until puberty or even up to age 18! At one point, they recommend giving up to 20 swats if a child is scared and hides (to get away from the spanking). . .It seriously was horrible to read!

 

But of course, the child is afraid of the "instrument of chastisement" and not the parent, because the child totally doesn't connect that the thing hitting him is being swung by someone.

 

I think spanking past a certain age starts to become sexual abuse. Nonconsentual contact with a teen's buttocks is absolutely unacceptable.

[LisaKinVA]

Oh my word! I hadn't really heard of the Pearls, so I googled them. I'm appalled. They don't believe in spanking, they believe in abuse. This is a quote from their website:

 

I have told a child I was going to give him 10 licks. I count out loud as I go. After about three licks, leaving him in his position, I would stop and remind him what this is all about. I would continue slowly, still counting, stop again and tell him that I know it hurts and I wish I didn’t have to do it but that it is for his own good. Then I would continue slowly. Pretending to forget the count, I would again stop at about eight and ask him the number. Have him subtract eight from ten, (a little homeschooling) and continue with the final two licks. Then I would have him stand in front of me and ask him why he got the spanking. If his answer showed that he was rebellious and defiant, he would get several more licks. Again he would be questioned as to his offense. If he showed total submission, we put it all behind us, but if he were still rebellious, we would continue until he gave over his will.

 

ETA: I FIND THE ABOVE QUOTE SICKENING!

 

When I was a new mom, I had been sucked into this mentality. I followed their instructions with my oldest son once. I **had** to stop. I felt perverse. I felt as if *I* were somehow taking "pleasure" in my son's "submission." I was so convicted. I cried so hard, and hugged him... I told him I loved him, and told him I would *never* spank him like that again. Remembering that day is just awful. I threw their book out.

 

Now, we still spank -- but the offense has to be one of three things: Telling me "no" when I give a specific instruction (usually the 3yo), purposely hurting another child, or lying. Most things result in a time-out, or loss of a privilege/toy (if they are so engrossed in the toy they cannot answer me, or do as requested... the toy goes away). We also limit the number of swats to a max of 3. After age 10, no more swats.

 

Days will go by without spanking in my house, and I don't miss it.

[mominbc]

Ok, I had to post this. This is a quote from Michael Pearl about how to deal with screaming in young children. This is why I said that horrible husbands get more mercy than little children. What happened to blessed are the merciful?

 

"You might just ignore any offense from the others when she screams; let it always be her fault. Consistency on your part will break that habit in just a few days. Never threaten, and never show mercy. One squeak of a scream gets a switching."

 

This sickens me!:glare:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Ok, I had to post this. This is a quote from Michael Pearl about how to deal with screaming in young children. This is why I said that horrible husbands get more mercy than little children. What happened to blessed are the merciful?

 

"You might just ignore any offense from the others when she screams; let it always be her fault. Consistency on your part will break that habit in just a few days. Never threaten, and never show mercy. One squeak of a scream gets a switching."

 

This sickens me!:glare:

 

 

Those poor children. :crying::cursing::banghead::(

[smrtmama]

Another sickening thing is they espouse this abuse from infancy onward.

[Daisy]

And with that said, if my mother had chosen to "stand by" my father, even while acknowledging what he did, and continued to be married to him, I would have considered it a betrayal beyond imagination, a continuation of my abuse and a complete abdication of her role as my mother. I would have considered it a victory for the dark side.

 

Each time I read this quote, my jaw drops and I am rendered shocked and speachless. I fear for anyone who follows the advice of these people.

 

Michael Pearl: "But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception."

 

I just can't get beyond the above quote. My Mom is still with my Dad. That's all I can say on this thread because I feel physically ill.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I just can't get beyond the above quote. My Mom is still with my Dad. That's all I can say on this thread because I feel physically ill.

 

 

:grouphug: I'm so sorry, Daisy.

[Daisy]

Personally, I wouldn't eat a slice of cake even if it only had 2 drops of rat poison in it.

 

No thanks, on any of the Pearl's literature after reading the above quote.

[Sputterduck]

Personally, I wouldn't eat a slice of cake even if it only had 2 drops of rat poison in it.

 

No thanks, on any of the Pearl's literature after reading the above quote.

 

 

Very good way to put it.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Finally got to this thread and have to add...I have read "Created to be His Helpmeet" and I didn't agree with it for many of the reasons stated here. This was even before I was aware of the shocking abuse statements they have talked about. Honestly, they truly disturb me. I just had to say it.

 

ETA: I'm so grateful my mom didn't read that book. I was being brought up in a VERY abusive home--in every way abusive--and she found the courage and strength to leave. If she hadn't, I don't know what I would be like today. Would I be capable of the kind of love I feel for my dh and children? I don't know. My point of view would be so twisted. It shatters me to think that beautiful women and children stay with those type of people. It concerns me that the Christian community puts pressure in some ways for the woman to stay. LEAVE. GET OUT. FAST. Don't try to stay because he submits to counseling and is repentant. Get out, and make him WIN YOUR TRUST AND LOVE back again, if he can. (In the case of s**ual abuse of children--don't look back. Move on.)

 

FWIW

Edited November 22, 2009 by Dayle in Guatemala

[katemary63]

I just can't get beyond the above quote. My Mom is still with my Dad. That's all I can say on this thread because I feel physically ill.

 

I'm sorry, Daisy. I know how you feel. I wish you peace.

[smrtmama]

Personally, I wouldn't eat a slice of cake even if it only had 2 drops of rat poison in it.

 

No thanks, on any of the Pearl's literature after reading the above quote.

 

Daisy, that has to be the wisest assessment of the Pearl's literature I've ever heard. *hug*

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Joanne, I'm pretty sure I know where you'll stand on this, but I'm curious and sometimes find your answers spur my thinking to a different direction.

 

Please note, I don't even know where I stand on this right now, just in a vague unsure confused sort of place...

 

As Christians we have a responsibility to forgive. I've known Christians, and been one myself, who have jumped for joy knowing that someone who had done truly terrible things found redemption and salvation. A gang leader, guilty of the murders of many people and the ****ation of many more, moves to Christ and my thought is, praise God! A theif, a drug addict, a prostitute, they accept Christ, they change and it's pretty easy, ime, to celebrate their change.

 

Now, we get to those that victimized children and I find a general abhorence, an idea of 'it doesn't matter, YOU can go to h***.' This is what stumps me. I could not imagine forgiving someone of that, not even if they did it to someone I didn't even know, not even if I only knew they'd done it, because they were on the sex offender list. I could not imagine opening my arms (shudder) to them, not to mention my church, my home!

 

How is this Christian behavior though? I can't imagine Christ accepting them!

 

Basically, what I want is scripture that says, those people should just be left to rot. Please.

 

I haven't read all the responses, but, I want to tackle this because it's kind of personal to me.

 

I was sexually abused by a close relative and a neighbor (inappropriate touching, things like that). My wonderful, courageous, amazing mother got us out of the situation before things went further, but, some emotional damage was done, understandably. It was some years later, when I was older that I was confronted in my relationship with the Lord about forgiving people who have hurt me. It wasn't through anything but scripture and God's gentle prodding. He walked with me through the forgiving process and provided me with a wonderful person to help me when things got a little bit too much for me to handle on my own.

 

I can honestly say, I forgive them. Now, through circumstances in my life and where I lived in the US, I do see them occasionally. I forgive them, but, I don't have to be friendly to them. I'm courteous and that's it. I don't go out of my way to prove to them that I have forgiven them. The fact that I can be polite and look them in the eye is enough. They know what happened. They know I follow Christ. Enough said. I pray they find peace. I pray they find God. I don't think it's part of my journey or calling to make sure that happens. It's just too much.

 

I love God's forgiving power. I believe it's for everyone. I'm so thankful He extended it to me and I pray all find His forgiveness.

[JenniferB]

I'm one who has read the Pearls, as I stated in the other thread. I didn't know about the "molesting" quote before reading the books. A good friend gave me the To Train Up a Child book first. If that was the first quote in the book, I probably would have thrown it away, and not read the rest. But, it seemed to have some good information, and I trusted my friend's recommendation, so I read it through. I thought it was extreme, but I took a few things away from it, and then shelved it. I don't remember reading anything about the molesting dad in that book. When I read a lifestyle book and there's something I disagree with, sometimes it's like it goes in one ear and out the other, then I move on. The same went with the Created to be His Help Meet book by Debbie Pearl. The same friend gave me that book. I thought it was really good, and it helped me to see my husband in a better way that improved our marriage. However, I do remember a few weird things toward the end of the book that I didn't agree with. It could have been that molester portion, or it might have been the internet porno guy, whatever it was or maybe several things, I don't even remember them, and I certainly didn't internalize them or keep them as instructions for my life. I probably won't read anymore books by them, because now that those things have been brought to more of a light, I agree that there are better places to get parenting or marriage lifestyle advice.

 

I have also read through the NLQ blog, and my eyes have really been opened to the dangers of the Quiverfull/Patriarchal teachings. I can see where it can make a man struggling in the areas of an overly authoritarian attitude to actually get worse and become abusive. I wouldn't have thought of that before reading over the blog. My husband leans more on the other side of the spectrum, so the teaching about wives submitting to husbands is helpful in our home. My husband has always disliked the Vision Forum CDs also. He also disagreed with most of what was in To Train Up a Child and saved us from going down that road to parenting. He did like most of what I read aloud to him from Created to be His Help Meet, especially the chapter on loving your husband. What husband wouldn't want a little more action in the b*room. :tongue_smilie:

 

I also find it very sad when Christian lifestyle choices become so part of a person/family/church body that it consumes the individual walk with Christ.

 

One really good nugget I gleaned from the NLQ website was when Vyckie said that she no longer considers her children's disobedience and/or individual choices as a direct reflection of her job. I'm going to take that to heart, because it hit home with me. That attitude is really toxic to a parent/child relationship, and I can see that I can lean that way. But, no longer! I really enjoy reading everyone's opinions. It always opens my eyes just a little bit more when I read a variety of ideas and ideals.

Edited November 22, 2009 by JenniferB

[BMW]

Sometimes I chime in, sometimes I don't. Many of you have read bits of my story.

 

let me tell you that in a very, very dark time, I wrote to Michael Pearl. I mailed him a letter. I never heard back. And what did I write about??

Well, my xh physically abused our children. He threatened to have me killed if I took his kids from him. He left bruising that stayed on my children for over a week. I was not just scared, but I had been isolated and I had been preached to over and over regarding submission, full quiver, trusting God, etc. I kept pleading with God in prayer to change my husband. I kept pleading with God to close my womb. I remember pastors telling me that divorce would be worse for my children than having a "strict" father. And these pastors KNEW about the abusive situations. These pastors knew that after lights were out my husband snuck into my dd's room to lay beside her and tell her things... and I would call out for help and say, EVEN if I CANT prove anything wrong happened, is this appropriate?? It was obvious to many people that my dh was grooming my dd... And I DID turn him in. He was supposed to go to jail for 16 months... and I was counseled to stay with him... And years later when abuse began to escalate, I knew that I WOULD LOSE my own children, so I got a lawyer and started the divorce. THANK GOD I was in a different church with pastors who weren't FULL OF @$%^ !! It took me years to heal and understand that GOD wasn't at fault, that HE DID LOVE ME and NEVER intended for us to have to live this way. Hmm... I wonder why Mr. Pearl never returned my letter???? And I watch my teen son deal with disrespect towards women and think that in order for others to follow you, they must fear you and I PRAY and PRAY that God will deliver him and help him change.

 

As it turned out, my xh ended up losing visitation with our children and I've been contacted and asked, "Oh, can't he still see the kids... He's changed. He's not that person you think he is." Well, I lived through hell and abuse and I've got no use for him or anyone who wants to listen to his lies... "Oh, she got mad that I didn't love her, so she DID THIS TO ME and TOOK MY kids away." @#$%!!! (I've GOT to stop swearing like that!)

 

So, those who want to follow the Pearls... I want to puke... in the end they care nothing for those who are hurt by abuse... they cared nothing about me... and I'm sure they'd say I was at fault... maybe I wasn't submissive enough, maybe if I'd have "trained" my kids better, they'd behave and wouldn't get in trouble with the dad... @#$% !

 

PS I have loved each one of my children SO very much. I live with guilt that I didn't save them from a sick life sooner. I apologize to every mom here... I am one that you would say should have lost her kids because I didn't stand up... I am so glad that I finally did. Please forgive me.

Edited November 22, 2009 by BMW

[Daisy]

I have loved each one of my children SO very much. I live with guilt that I didn't save them from a sick life sooner. I apologize to every mom here... I am one that you would say should have lost her kids because I didn't stand up... I am so glad that I finally did. Please forgive me.

 

You did it though!

 

You got them out.

 

You believed them. :grouphug:

 

You don't have to apologize to any of us.

 

You are an incredibly brave woman.

[smrtmama]

Sometimes I chime in, sometimes I don't. Many of you have read bits of my story.

 

let me tell you that in a very, very dark time, I wrote to Michael Pearl. I mailed him a letter. I never heard back. And what did I write about??

Well, my xh physically abused our children. He threatened to have me killed if I took his kids from him. He left bruising that stayed on my children for over a week. I was not just scared, but I had been isolated and I had been preached to over and over regarding submission, full quiver, trusting God, etc. I kept pleading with God in prayer to change my husband. I kept pleading with God to close my womb. I remember pastors telling me that divorce would be worse for my children than having a "strict" father. And these pastors KNEW about the abusive situations. These pastors knew that after lights were out my husband snuck into my dd's room to lay beside her and tell her things... and I would call out for help and say, EVEN if I CANT prove anything wrong happened, is this appropriate?? It was obvious to many people that my dh was grooming my dd... And I DID turn him in. He was supposed to go to jail for 16 months... and I was counseled to stay with him... And years later when abuse began to escalate, I knew that I WOULD LOSE my own children, so I got a lawyer and started the divorce. THANK GOD I was in a different church with pastors who weren't FULL OF @$%^ !! It took me years to heal and understand that GOD wasn't at fault, that HE DID LOVE ME and NEVER intended for us to have to live this way. Hmm... I wonder why Mr. Pearl never returned my letter???? And I watch my teen son deal with disrespect towards women and think that in order for others to follow you, they must fear you and I PRAY and PRAY that God will deliver him and help him change.

 

As it turned out, my xh ended up losing visitation with our children and I've been contacted and asked, "Oh, can't he still see the kids... He's changed. He's not that person you think he is." Well, I lived through hell and abuse and I've got no use for him or anyone who wants to listen to his lies... "Oh, she got mad that I didn't love her, so she DID THIS TO ME and TOOK MY kids away." @#$%!!! (I've GOT to stop swearing like that!)

 

So, those who want to follow the Pearls... I want to puke... in the end they care nothing for those who are hurt by abuse... they cared nothing about me... and I'm sure they'd say I was at fault... maybe I wasn't submissive enough, maybe if I'd have "trained" my kids better, they'd behave and wouldn't get in trouble with the dad... @#$% !

 

PS I have loved each one of my children SO very much. I live with guilt that I didn't save them from a sick life sooner. I apologize to every mom here... I am one that you would say should have lost her kids because I didn't stand up... I am so glad that I finally did. Please forgive me.

 

*sending you virtual hugs and deepest respect for your amazing strength*

[Scarlett]

Sometimes I chime in, sometimes I don't. Many of you have read bits of my story.

 

let me tell you that in a very, very dark time, PS I have loved each one of my children SO very much. I live with guilt that I didn't save them from a sick life sooner. I apologize to every mom here... I am one that you would say should have lost her kids because I didn't stand up... I am so glad that I finally did. Please forgive me.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

[katemary63]

I'm courteous and that's it. I don't go out of my way to prove to them that I have forgiven them. The fact that I can be polite and look them in the eye is enough. They know what happened. They know I follow Christ. Enough said. I pray they find peace. I pray they find God. I don't think it's part of my journey or calling to make sure that happens. It's just too much.

 

I love God's forgiving power. I believe it's for everyone. I'm so thankful He extended it to me and I pray all find His forgiveness.

 

:iagree: Perfect!

 

I do not speak to my father. That does NOT mean I have not forgiven him. He has asked for it. I have granted it. It is 100% true that I have no malice towards him, wish him no ill, and hope he has a happy rest of his life and then spends eternity in heaven. It is also true that I don't have any affection for him either and that he rarely even crosses my mind. I don't allow my children to know him. I have no need for him in my life and since he has shown me that he is still unable to respect healthy boundaries, I do have a reason to keep him at a distance. It has NOTHING to do with forgiveness. It has EVERYTHING to do with the natural consequences for HIS behavior. I don't feel guilty about the results of HIS choices. That just wouldn't make any sense at all to me. But many people have said to me, "You should see him. He is your father after all. God wants you to forgive him." At this point, I just kind of chuckle at this silly comment. Maybe with maturity, these people will see how foolish they sound. I hope God puts people in my dad's life to meet all his needs, teach him things, accept him for who he is (he claims to be a Christian now), and show him the love of Christ. That person is most definately not me, nor should it be. I'm good.

 

Oh! And by the way....nor should it be MY MOTHER!!!!!!

[momtoboys]

BMW. . .I'm so glad that you got yourself and the kids out of that situation. :grouphug:

[JenniferB]

BMW - Thank God you got your kids out of that "man's" realm. I hope you all heal.

[mrsrevmeg]

So, those who want to follow the Pearls... I want to puke... in the end they care nothing for those who are hurt by abuse... they cared nothing about me... and I'm sure they'd say I was at fault... maybe I wasn't submissive enough, maybe if I'd have "trained" my kids better, they'd behave and wouldn't get in trouble with the dad... @#$% !

 

PS I have loved each one of my children SO very much. I live with guilt that I didn't save them from a sick life sooner. I apologize to every mom here... I am one that you would say should have lost her kids because I didn't stand up... I am so glad that I finally did. Please forgive me.

 

I am so sorry that you had to endure this. I think that leaving a husband (even a very bad one) when you have no support is a tough decision. My sil had a horrendous husband. He lied to their pastor and said that his wife was not willing to work out their problems. (he had drugged her and posted pics on the internet, among other things) He had such a strong hold on her that she believed his perversion was somehow her fault. She lost her job (as a preschool teacher in a church), her reputation, her dreams of a having a happy family because of him. Most of their church family was related to him. She had no support. He had isolated her from all her friends. It was so hard for her to step out and leave him. It breaks my heart to see women in the same place that she once was. I am so glad to know that you got out BMW. One day your children will be able to say that you were there for them and you got them out.

[coffeefreak]

Sometimes I chime in, sometimes I don't. Many of you have read bits of my story.

 

let me tell you that in a very, very dark time, I wrote to Michael Pearl. I mailed him a letter. I never heard back. And what did I write about??

Well, my xh physically abused our children. He threatened to have me killed if I took his kids from him. He left bruising that stayed on my children for over a week. I was not just scared, but I had been isolated and I had been preached to over and over regarding submission, full quiver, trusting God, etc. I kept pleading with God in prayer to change my husband. I kept pleading with God to close my womb. I remember pastors telling me that divorce would be worse for my children than having a "strict" father. And these pastors KNEW about the abusive situations. These pastors knew that after lights were out my husband snuck into my dd's room to lay beside her and tell her things... and I would call out for help and say, EVEN if I CANT prove anything wrong happened, is this appropriate?? It was obvious to many people that my dh was grooming my dd... And I DID turn him in. He was supposed to go to jail for 16 months... and I was counseled to stay with him... And years later when abuse began to escalate, I knew that I WOULD LOSE my own children, so I got a lawyer and started the divorce. THANK GOD I was in a different church with pastors who weren't FULL OF @$%^ !! It took me years to heal and understand that GOD wasn't at fault, that HE DID LOVE ME and NEVER intended for us to have to live this way. Hmm... I wonder why Mr. Pearl never returned my letter???? And I watch my teen son deal with disrespect towards women and think that in order for others to follow you, they must fear you and I PRAY and PRAY that God will deliver him and help him change.

 

As it turned out, my xh ended up losing visitation with our children and I've been contacted and asked, "Oh, can't he still see the kids... He's changed. He's not that person you think he is." Well, I lived through hell and abuse and I've got no use for him or anyone who wants to listen to his lies... "Oh, she got mad that I didn't love her, so she DID THIS TO ME and TOOK MY kids away." @#$%!!! (I've GOT to stop swearing like that!)

 

So, those who want to follow the Pearls... I want to puke... in the end they care nothing for those who are hurt by abuse... they cared nothing about me... and I'm sure they'd say I was at fault... maybe I wasn't submissive enough, maybe if I'd have "trained" my kids better, they'd behave and wouldn't get in trouble with the dad... @#$% !

 

PS I have loved each one of my children SO very much. I live with guilt that I didn't save them from a sick life sooner. I apologize to every mom here... I am one that you would say should have lost her kids because I didn't stand up... I am so glad that I finally did. Please forgive me.

 

:grouphug:

 

That's all I have. I am so sorry. You are so brave and strong, don't ever think otherwise.

 

:grouphug:

Blessings

Dorinda

[Rosy]

And all I can say is "wow".

 

It does exemplify many of the issues of concern I have with the QF/patriarchy sub-culture.

 

I realize her story is not everyone's story.

 

I was hoping someone would bring this up for discussion! I got completely sucked into her story...so disturbing.

 

The blog is http://nolongerquivering.com/ if anyone is interested. Click on "Vyckie's Story".

 

Honestly, I came away from her story dissatisfied. I was looking for the link between her daughter's suicide attempt and the quiverfull movement and didn't find it. YES, the stepdad was verbally abusive and YES, Vyckie let it happen for many years...but I don't see that as characteristic of the QF movement anymore than I see educational neglect as characteristic of homeschooling.

 

I wondered why she didn't, early on in their marriage, ask her husband to back off of his criticisms. While he was clearly wrong, I can see how he might not have understood how his words were being received. I saw that when she finally did confront him when Angel was an older teen, he did try to change. I saw that he did improve when he was in healthy fellowship.

 

I wonder if counseling with someone who supported their lifestyle but could encourage communication and balance in their marriage could have helped them. I think a family can follow a more patriarchal model and still be healthy if the husband loves and respects his wife. Some men are strong leaders and some women are content to follow. There is nothing wrong with that as long as the wife isn't turning a blind eye to abuse (as Vyckie was).

 

I also struggled with how Vyckie was always the victim. Yes, she endured many horrible things. I never saw her taking responsibility for her own bad decisions.

 

I also thought that she talked tough but never actually asserted herself or stood up for her children. Again, I know that's common and a result in part of her being abused, but at some point she is responsible for her actions.

 

I would like to hear the end of the story--why the QF model is responsible for her daughter's suicide attempt and her failed marriage. I think there were a lot of other factors at work that have all been lumped together.

 

And for the record, I am not QF (though I was at one point). I do believe that God might lead some people to that lifestyle, though.

 

I also think there is a difference between quiverfull and patriarchy. Some people lump them together, but it should not be assumed that someone who follows one follows the other, as I believe Vyckie does.

[JenniferB]

Rosy, I was wondering some of the same things about Vyckie's story. Personal responsibility seems to be lacking in her perspective of her life situations. She also goes from one extreme to the other with an "us vs. them" mentality on both extremes. I hope she finds balance and peace, and I hope she can recognize one day that the God of the Bible is not oppressive to women, but Jesus actually came to set us free. I'm glad that her children, especially Angel, seem to be blossoming.

[Rosy]

Rosy, I was wondering some of the same things about Vyckie's story. Personal responsibility seems to be lacking in her perspective of her life situations. She also goes from one extreme to the other with an "us vs. them" mentality on both extremes. I hope she finds balance and peace, and I hope she can recognize one day that the God of the Bible is not oppressive to women, but Jesus actually came to set us free. I'm glad that her children, especially Angel, seem to be blossoming.

 

Yes, I noticed that too about the extremes. And I've noticed that a lot of women who get into the patriarchal ideas seem to have a severe view of God (which is probably why they choose severe men) and believe it is right to "follow the narrow path"....which most people are too worldly to find. I hope, too, that she comes to a right understanding of God and the freedom of life in Christ.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

But, where does 'personal responsibility' come in when, ultimately, she has to submit to her husband? For her to pack her bags, grab her kids and get the "H" outta' Dodge she has to be non-submissive at that point and stand up to her husband and leave. That is a HUGE LEAP from submissive/headship/and QF. (as she seemed to live it, not that every QF wife submits in a headship relationship.)

 

When there was abuse he was obviously not "loving his wife as christ loved the church", nor was he 'treating her like a Queen'. But, at that point, she was so enmeshed in that lifestyle that it took awhile to leave.

[Joanne]

But, where does 'personal responsibility' come in when, ultimately, she has to submit to her husband? For her to pack her bags, grab her kids and get the "H" outta' Dodge she has to be non-submissive at that point and stand up to her husband and leave. That is a HUGE LEAP from submissive/headship/and QF. (as she seemed to live it, not that every QF wife submits in a headship relationship.)

 

When there was abuse he was obviously not "loving his wife as christ loved the church", nor was he 'treating her like a Queen'. But, at that point, she was so enmeshed in that lifestyle that it took awhile to leave.

 

:iagree:

 

The abuse dynamic obscures personal responsibility, and "get up and go". The abuse dynamic is compelling; magnetic; compulsive. It's not something a person falls into, it's something a person progressively gets sucked into until it becomes nearly impossible to get out.

 

And then, if you have contining interaction through the fact of children with the ex spouse, you STILL don't escape the abuse dynamic, it just changes specific forms.

 

I used to wonder and ask while I was one :How do smart women get into and stay in abuse relationships?

 

In cases of extreme, "outlying", counter cultural subcultures, the potential for abuse is exacerbated exponentially. First, we start with people drawn for whatever reason to extremes. Some of these reasons may well be unhealthy mentally. Usually, we have the presence also of an possibly unhealthy dogma, rhetoric, and even a group with degrees of cult characteristics. Combine predisposition with the presence of an enabling charismatic body and you have disaster. THAT was Vykie's story.

 

And mine.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:iagree:

 

The abuse dynamic obscures personal responsibility, and "get up and go". The abuse dynamic is compelling; magnetic; compulsive. It's not something a person falls into, it's something a person progressively gets sucked into until it becomes nearly impossible to get out.

 

And then, if you have contining interaction through the fact of children with the ex spouse, you STILL don't escape the abuse dynamic, it just changes specific forms.

 

I used to wonder and ask while I was one :How do smart women get into and stay in abuse relationships?

 

In cases of extreme, "outlying", counter cultural subcultures, the potential for abuse is exacerbated exponentially. First, we start with people drawn for whatever reason to extremes. Some of these reasons may well be unhealthy mentally. Usually, we have the presence also of an possibly unhealthy dogma, rhetoric, and even a group with degrees of cult characteristics. Combine predisposition with the presence of an enabling charismatic body and you have disaster. THAT was Vykie's story.

 

And mine.

 

 

And THAT is the problem that I see with submission. When someone tells a woman to submit that person does not know exactly what that woman is going home to.....a really nice husband who is going to "treat his wife like a Queen" or.....the abusive monster. Abusive men don't open the conversation that way, "Hey, wanna go out on a date? Oh and btw, when and if you marry me I will control your every move and isolate you from anyone who cares about you and make your life a living hell. So, where do you wanna go out for dinner?" :001_huh:

[asta]

And THAT is the problem that I see with submission. When someone tells a woman to submit that person does not know exactly what that woman is going home to.....a really nice husband who is going to "treat his wife like a Queen" or.....the abusive monster. Abusive men don't open the conversation that way, "Hey, wanna go out on a date? Oh and btw, when and if you marry me I will control your every move and isolate you from anyone who cares about you and make your life a living hell. So, where do you wanna go out for dinner?" :001_huh:

 

One of my sisters and my best friend.

 

Sad.

 

 

a

[TXMary2]

OK, now, I have read some of the Pearl's stuff and like 2/3 of it. I am only 1/3 of the way through Created to be His Helpmeet. I haven't yet read this supposed quote, but here are my thoughts on it. (This is coming from someone whose stepfather used to paddle harshly, leaving marks that sometimes lasted more than 2 hours-not a fond remembrance.)

 

They are presupposing two primary truths about family and forgiveness:

 

Wives are to put their relationship with their husband above the relationship with their children because it is designed to be permanent and she is merely the guidance and support for the formative years of her children, at which point, they are then individuals, responsible for themselves; separate. We tend to be child worshipers in our culture.

 

What was the conversation Jesus had with Peter (I think it was he?) about forgiveness? How many times do we forgive? Did Jesus then qualify his answer with-"except if he has molested a child?" Or "except if he has hit his wife?" Or we might as well inject our favorite cause for hate and stubborn refusal to forgive. Ever stop to think about what life must be like for the human being (and yes they are still a human being, loved by God) who commits such horrible crimes and who is then truly repentant and turns towards God, but has no one willing to help guide him, believe him, shelter him, employ him, etc. because we are Sunday Christians who like to claim we follow the Bible but when it gets difficult, forget it!

 

Notice Mr. Pearl did say that he first expects the wife to insure her children's safety-maybe by sending them to live with grandparents? (This one is a little iffy-I think the man is the one who should move out-go to the Rescue Mission to live.) Notice too, that if he serves time, (he figures 10-20 years, though that is unlikely) Mr. Pearl presumes the children would be grown and out of the home when the wife then welcomes her husband back. Would the children feel betrayed? Yes. Is it really their call? No. Again, her primary job requirements have been fulfilled as far as they are concerned. If she is trying to fulfill the commandments of the Bible regarding forgiveness, then I would at least respect that. At least she is trying to do the right thing according to her beliefs. Now, I would not let any grandkids visit, but that's another story. You can be forgiving, but there's no requirement to tempt the man to sin again and put your kids in harms way.

 

Now I don't agree with some of the hitting notions that the Pearl's seem to advocate-the marks that fade..it's still a mark. What is a Christian doing leaving marks? I know?! But forgiveness? Yes. Have I ever left a mark on my child (a handprint, perhaps, on a butt cheek-faded within 2 hours)? Yes. Was I sorry? Yes. Did I receive God's forgiveness? Yes.

Should I not have? You all have left me thinking that you get to be the judges of who gets forgiven and who doesn't.

 

Now, if my husband molested my kids, his a** would be gone. But I would definitely make it a goal to try to find it within my heart, at some time before I left this earth, to forgive him.

 

My very long two cents.

 

Lakota

 

 

Very well said. I don't subscribe to the Pearl's doctrine, but have read two of the books-- the Helpmeet book and the Train Up a Child. Like everything else I read, I take what I like and leave the rest.

Edited November 23, 2009 by TXMary2

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

And THAT is the problem that I see with submission. When someone tells a woman to submit that person does not know exactly what that woman is going home to.

 

 

I haven't personally had any involvement with such extremes as the people and 'church's' like those under discussion but the problem is not with the Biblical teaching of submission - the problems lie in a number of UN Biblical practices/teachings.

 

Just one I haven't heard mentioned - a Biblical church would not enable a man to abuse a woman or children. God has set up protection for the flock by giving numerous instructions for church discipline and in certain cases that would even involve civil authorities.

 

It is sickening that such perversion goes on under the cloak of so called "Christianity". In a Biblical church the pastors God has placed over the flock protect them with sound teaching and church discipline. A man who is emotionally, verbally, or physically abusing his family is in disobedience to God and his pastors would care enough about his family AND his own soul to step in, either leading that man to true repentance or getting him out of there and either way, at all times, ensuring his family was safe and provided for.

 

My pastor would not counsel someone to even approach by themselves a church member in adultery but rather to come straight to the elders about it so they can deal with it -- much less so would he counsel a woman to approach her own husband with the sin of molesting her children (referring to a previously mentioned quote by Pearl) which is a heinous sin and a criminal offense of one of the worst kinds and needs to be dealt with accordingly. Of course, my pastor wouldn't counsel anyone to read the Pearls and our church teaches submission (ALL commands of submission, including those to husbands) and headship (with all it's responsibilities including the laying down of ones own life as Christ did for His bride, the church). We have a number of QFers too but not one of them is to the extreme of disregarding the life of the mother in the name of faith.

 

All this just to say all these things exist apart from abuse -- the problem is with the people, not any one of these particular teachings.

[Rosy]

 

Just one I haven't heard mentioned - a Biblical church would not enable a man to abuse a woman or children. God has set up protection for the flock by giving numerous instructions for church discipline and in certain cases that would even involve civil authorities.

 

It is sickening that such perversion goes on under the cloak of so called "Christianity". In a Biblical church the pastors God has placed over the flock protect them with sound teaching and church discipline. A man who is emotionally, verbally, or physically abusing his family is in disobedience to God and his pastors would care enough about his family AND his own soul to step in, either leading that man to true repentance or getting him out of there and either way, at all times, ensuring his family was safe and provided for.

 

 

Exactly. Biblical submission is not extreme, nor does the wife's responsibility to submit exist in a vacuum of morality and common sense. The exhortation to submit is coupled with the man's exhortation to love sacrificially. Submitting doesn't mean never questioning your husband's sin or holding him accountable for it. It doesn't mean having no voice and making no decisions.

 

People who hold the extreme patricarchical view take a few verses to an unbiblical extreme, failing to balance them against the rest of Scripture...including the parts that talk about what to do if a brother is in sin. A husband is also a brother in Christ.

 

I do empathize with Vyckie, though. Suffering such extreme abuse from childhood is bound to create this unhealthy understanding of men. I hope she finds healing.

[hornblower]

Wives are to put their relationship with their husband above the relationship with their children because it is designed to be permanent and she is merely the guidance and support for the formative years of her children, at which point, they are then individuals, responsible for themselves; separate.

 

See, I find this very disturbing.

 

I believe children should be the prime focus of both the mother and the father. That relationship should trump all others. The children's well being and health - physical, intellectual, emotional should be of prime consideration for both of the parents. It is not a matter of child worship. It is a matter of investing in our species. Our children should take primacy over the whims, or even needs, of an adult. Just as you say, the adults are inviduals, responsible for themselves. They can take care of their own needs, or defer the gratification of their needs until the needs of their children have been taken care of.

 

I think it was in an Elizabeth George novel (not a parenting author, a mystery author; I think it was in Playing for the Ashes) where a woman says that she committed one othe most awful crimes a mother can commit - she loved her husband more than her child. I think that was a profound statement and has stuck with me for years now.

 

But then I also don't think marriage is necessarily permanent. And I suspect that early church teachings were not about permanence. I think the early church was concerned about men running off and not supporting their wives and offspring and so the church sought to put some responsibility on men to do this. It wasn't about permanence so much as about staying & recognizing his duties to women & children who are vulnerable.