Jen500 Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 That's too bad. So are you looking for something to replace it, or just giving those of us who prefer our science dished up without religion a little warning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineFarmMom Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Then don't buy it. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smrtmama Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 As a secular homeschooler, I really appreciate the heads up. Do you want recs for science for any specific age group? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I too am unwilling/unable to give her the benefit of the doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomtoCandJ Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 :glare: and I was going to use that for the elementary years for dd, any other suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paula in PA Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 :glare: and I was going to use that for the elementary years for dd, any other suggestions? REAL Science Odyssey This is my recommendation for grammar stage. It's secular and has lots of activities/experiments. We enjoyed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 You get one star for merely existing with an opinion. :glare: Thanks for the heads up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smrtmama Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 For lab physics, we've been enjoying the TOPScience units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 REAL Science Odyssey This is my recommendation for grammar stage. It's secular and has lots of activities/experiments. We enjoyed them. We used this years ago, in its first edition, and my boys loved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saille Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 REAL Science doesn't offer Physics though, right? Doggone it. Although honestly, we're using RS4K Chemistry Pre-Level and Level 1 this year, and it's not something I can't live without. Not to mention that we'll be through with it before Thanksgiving, so I had to buy other materials anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplain Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Author beliefs don't overly concern me. I'd have little to work with if I insisted that the author's religious views must mesh with mine. It is how those views come through in the materials that matters to me. I've looked at the RS4K pre-level materials, and they don't bother me. I plan to use pre-level physics and chemistry. I haven't looked at her other materials yet, so I'll cross that bridge if/when I get there. I feel similarly about some history materials and some CM books/materials, but I still use them. SOTW does have a Christian bias, and I find it manageable. Most CM materials have a distinct Christian slant, and I substitute or ignore what doesn't fit for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom to 3 boys & 1 girl Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Thanks for posting this. We have been doing science the WTM way but Ethan and I decided that we want a curriculum. I spent all weekend deciding between RS4K and REAL science. I ended up going with REAL. We are going to start later this afternoon. Reading this makes me feel like I made the right decision. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 thanks for the heads up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate in Arabia Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 We've been using Mr Q science, we did the life science last year and are doing earth science this year. I haven't looked at the chemistry or physical science books yet to see how they are, but there has never been a mention of religion in either of the books we've used. http://www.eequalsmcq.com/classicsciinfo.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplain Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Unfortunately I don't have a strong enough background in science to feel comfortable evaluating most programs. Jen, I don't disagree with you. I'm comfortable making my own calls when it comes to science materials, but I share your concerns when it comes history materials. So I read reviews and use them to help me make decisions. For example, I use SOTW because there seem to be a number of secular-minded history buffs who find it acceptable despite the Christian bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxMom Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 We're using RS4K physics this year (I liked Living Learning Books chemistry last year, but they don't have physics) and I can't find anything other than physics in it. I went in knowing the ID beliefs of the author but, really, I have seen nothing but pure science in the curriculum. Is it possible that her comments about winning over atheists was made in the context of demonstrating how pure science and religious faith can coexist? (I haven't read the blog, so I have no idea) Noeo is also perfectly secular science, though the authors are Christian. And I would expect one's faith to touch all they do, but that doesn't make it bad science. It just means that I may have to supplement for evolution (not really a prevalent subject even in public school science) and human reproduction (ditto), so that's really never a big deal for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in CA Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Both. I have read some threads questioning how her beliefs about id may or may not affect her curriculum, and I never really felt bothered by it. I think it's possible to write a secular curriculum regardless of ones religious beliefs. But now I'm not confident that she can do this. I'm not sure I understand--you've never seen anything religious in the materials. Are you afraid she'll slip something in that you won't notice, and that will confuse your children's thinking, or are you now opposed to using the materials on principle? (Thanks for the heads up, either way!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdeveson Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 SECULAR CONTENT. After reading some posts by Dr. Keller on her yahoo group I no longer believe she can keep her religious views separate from her curriculum. In general, she made some points about gradually winning over atheists and how to disprove evolution. Seriously? If she said that, it's a deal breaker. I've become disillusioned with her books -- for a scientist, she writes *very* light stuff. On her website she has stuff about it being secular, blah, blah. More likely, she's playing both sides against the middle. On her website, WHERE SHE MAKES THE BIG BUCKS, she's all secular. When she's in front of a bunch of religious people, suddenly it's her ministry. Most likely, her ministry is raking in the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Dr Keller's lack of veracity has proven troubling in the past and this just adds to my belief that she is not trust-worthy. "Duplicitous" is the word that come to mind. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 That is your prerogative, but I don't think it is fair to dismiss her books because she has a personal opinion that you don't share. As long as that doesn't spill over into her books (and judging by the books I have read so far it does not) then I don't see what difference it makes. Turn this around. I'm an atheist. If I write a book and hope to sell it to homeschoolers and I leave my atheistic viewpoints out of the book, I would hate to think that people wouldn't give me the time of day simply because in my personal life I am an atheist. I would understand it if I were to preach my atheism to people in my books. If not, then I hope they judge the book based on the content of the book, not on my personal views. It might be an issue, however, if you fudged your orientation. Say your web-site spoke about science as being all about revealing "God's plan". And it turns out on the side you write yahoo postings about winning people away from religion. And are active on the "Atheist" speaking circuit. And write papers for Atheist-promotion groups. And distribute your materials as a fundraising materials though "Atheism promoting organizations"? If you did that I think there would be a "trust issue." Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Seriously? If she said that, it's a deal breaker. I've become disillusioned with her books -- for a scientist, she writes *very* light stuff. On her website she has stuff about it being secular, blah, blah. More likely, she's playing both sides against the middle. On her website, WHERE SHE MAKES THE BIG BUCKS, she's all secular. When she's in front of a bunch of religious people, suddenly it's her ministry. Most likely, her ministry is raking in the money. This is something I think secular AND ID/Creationist folks should have a problem with. She's represented herself as two different things depending on her audience in order to sell. If her beliefs about ID/Creationism are firm why should she pander to a secular audience? If she believes a curriculum should be free of religious discussion why be hawking the ministry angle? I'm with Bill on this and I think that both the audiences she's trying to get sales from have a right to be insulted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 SECULAR CONTENT. After reading some posts by Dr. Keller on her yahoo group I no longer believe she can keep her religious views separate from her curriculum. In general, she made some points about gradually winning over atheists and how to disprove evolution. I haven't read the comments so am curious. Is she trying to convert atheists to Christianity or is she trying to convert evolutionists to non-evolutionists (not necessarily the same thing). There are some secular scientists who do not think the theory of evolution is supported by science. Dr. Michael Behe for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paula in PA Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 REAL Science doesn't offer Physics though, right? Doggone it. Although honestly, we're using RS4K Chemistry Pre-Level and Level 1 this year, and it's not something I can't live without. Not to mention that we'll be through with it before Thanksgiving, so I had to buy other materials anyway. I believe the physics is supposed to be released sometime next spring. You'd have to check Pandia to be sure, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I agree that I would be a little concerned as well even though I believe in creation and evolution;) Why does anyone see a need to covert people away from evolution anyway? IMHO if some choose to believe it or not believe it, then let them. It is their perogative (sp?) so to speak as long as it does not harm others. What about MY Pals are Here for science depending on the age of your kids? It has good reviews and is supposed to be secular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerdad Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 There are some secular scientists who do not think the theory of evolution is supported by science. Dr. Michael Behe for instance. I can't speak for everyone, but I can opine about Behe. I read the several hundred pages of his testimony in the Dover trial, and whatever he is, he is not a secular scientist, nor is he an honest broker about ID and evolution. He was completely discredited on that stand, and he was obviously hiding a belief in God (which I also find to be reprehensible). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I can't speak for everyone, but I can opine about Behe. I read the several hundred pages of his testimony in the Dover trial, and whatever he is, he is not a secular scientist, nor is he an honest broker about ID and evolution. He was completely discredited on that stand, and he was obviously hiding a belief in God (which I also find to be reprehensible). Oh, my, I didn't know this. I agree - that is reprehensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdeveson Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 That is your prerogative, but I don't think it is fair to dismiss her books because she has a personal opinion that you don't share. As long as that doesn't spill over into her books (and judging by the books I have read so far it does not) then I don't see what difference it makes. Turn this around. I'm an atheist. If I write a book and hope to sell it to homeschoolers and I leave my atheistic viewpoints out of the book, I would hate to think that people wouldn't give me the time of day simply because in my personal life I am an atheist. I would understand it if I were to preach my atheism to people in my books. If not, then I hope they judge the book based on the content of the book, not on my personal views. If I may interject gently, Dr. Keller purports to sell secular books on her website, and in a different website she states that she hopes to convert atheists. In my opinion, that is duplicitous and would be sufficient for me to not want to do business with her. Her opinions would be irrelevant. Perhaps this is what some posters find objectionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdeveson Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 What about MY Pals are Here for science depending on the age of your kids? It has good reviews and is supposed to be secular. I've just ordered the whole kit for 5/6. I was finding RS4K way to light on content and depth. I had already come to this conclusion last year, but this year the colorful books sucked me in again. I should have trusted my first decision. :tongue_smilie: I'll post as soon as I receive them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 SECULAR CONTENT. After reading some posts by Dr. Keller on her yahoo group I no longer believe she can keep her religious views separate from her curriculum. In general, she made some points about gradually winning over atheists and how to disprove evolution. Yes she is part of the group that authored the infamous wedge document. http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html I posted several times about this group ane their aims. It is really, really hard to find a biology text and labs for a reasonable price that espouses purely scientific information. I do understand why some would feel that they must use these materials out of frustration and their insecurity regarding evaluation of a science text. Duplicity is far too kind a word for this . I prefer writers who say what they mean and mean what they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelia Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 :glare: and I was going to use that for the elementary years for dd, any other suggestions? Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding. The 3rd-5th grade book should be out by the time she gets there, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkInTheBlue Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Yes, if she wrote her curriculum with a goal and intention of swaying my or my childern's beliefs in an area that is none of her business, then I will no longer be her customer. If it's true then it's manipulative and deceitful. I pay her for science not religion or opinion. I'll look up the link when I get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) It might be an issue, however, if you fudged your orientation. Say your web-site spoke about science as being all about revealing "God's plan". And it turns out on the side you write yahoo postings about winning people away from religion. And are active on the "Atheist" speaking circuit. And write papers for Atheist-promotion groups. And distribute your materials as a fundraising materials though "Atheism promoting organizations"? If you did that I think there would be a "trust issue." Bill I think I need to pop over and see if her website has changed. When I bought RS4K several years ago, it was clear that even though the materials are secular, Dr. Keller and the organization are Christian. Of course, I'm a Christian, so CC doesn't bother me. But I hope they haven't started lying about their beliefs in order to attract more customers. ETA: I couldn't find anything on either website (gravitas publications or arn) addressing the pov of the curriculum or author. If I knew nothing about the curriculum, I'd assume it's Christian since it's marketed by Arn. I only spent 5 minutes but I didn't find anything that led me to believe that Dr. Keller is trying to hide her beliefs. Edited October 19, 2009 by LizzyBee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I have two of the books, am not Christian and have not found anything I find objectionable in the books for me and my family. I use Easy Grammar and know nothing about their religious beliefs. Same with Saxon math, reading detective, handwriting without tears, etc. Its a non-issue for me. What Dr. Keller does in her free time is her business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I have two of the books, am not Christian and have not found anything I find objectionable in the books for me and my family. I use Easy Grammar and know nothing about their religious beliefs. Same with Saxon math, reading detective, handwriting without tears, etc. Its a non-issue for me. What Dr. Keller does in her free time is her business. Hmm ok . If you want creationism and /or its stepchild, intelligent design taught in the public schools with your tax dollars please buy her materials and thus support their agenda. I think it is fine that she howl at the moon in her free time but I will darn well not support her financially in doing so since I have a choice . Here is the PAC that she is involved with and their agenda goes way beyond a little hs science program http://www.arn.org/ I just want people to be informed consumers. FWIW the language used in her materials points clearly to the intelligent design POV . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkInTheBlue Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I have two of the books, am not Christian and have not found anything I find objectionable in the books for me and my family. I use Easy Grammar and know nothing about their religious beliefs. Same with Saxon math, reading detective, handwriting without tears, etc. Its a non-issue for me. What Dr. Keller does in her free time is her business. I would normally absolutely agree with you except for the quote of her motivation. Her statement indicates an alternate motive for her curriculum. That motivation appears to be something trying to address an area of my and my children's lives that I DO NOT want her contribution. I wouldn't care except she made it an issue indicating I might need to be aware of her content and intentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 SECULAR CONTENT. After reading some posts by Dr. Keller on her yahoo group I no longer believe she can keep her religious views separate from her curriculum. In general, she made some points about gradually winning over atheists and how to disprove evolution. How eerie. I had a very small hunch this was part of her thinking, and went with REAL instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 SECULAR CONTENT. After reading some posts by Dr. Keller on her yahoo group I no longer believe she can keep her religious views separate from her curriculum. In general, she made some points about gradually winning over atheists and how to disprove evolution. I appreciate the information. I've actually been looking at that curriculum. I'm about ready to give up on science until high school. In the 8 years I've been homeschooling, I haven't found a secular science program that I really like. I'm always embarrassed when I see threads on this board freaking out over the people who don't think science is important. I do think it's important, I just can't find an acceptable program! When I asked for a secular program on this board, I got more responses for Christian programs. I assumed they either didn't see the word 'secular' or thought I wouldn't mind using something religious anyway. :001_huh: Honestly, I'd rather not use a program at all, than use one that teaches material I don't believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I appreciate the information. I've actually been looking at that curriculum. I'm about ready to give up on science until high school. In the 8 years I've been homeschooling, I haven't found a secular science program that I really like. I'm always embarrassed when I see threads on this board freaking out over the people who don't think science is important. I do think it's important, I just can't find an acceptable program! When I asked for a secular program on this board, I got more responses for Christian programs. I assumed they either didn't see the word 'secular' or thought I wouldn't mind using something religious anyway. :001_huh: Honestly, I'd rather not use a program at all, than use one that teaches material I don't believe. How about Singapore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELaurie Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Well, *I* was ok with her materials until she started posting in her R$4k yahoo support group about her strategies for gradually convincing atheists to embrace id and disproving evolution because it is 'false'. If she had posted this on her website for me to see before buying and using her materials, that would be one thing. I would know where she was coming from in her products. And I just don't know enough about chemistry and biology to recognize subtle id ideas. Could you please post a link to the yahoo support group mentioned in your post ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Could you please post a link to the yahoo support group mentioned in your post ? It is called RealScience4Kids http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/RealScience4Kids/?v=1&t=directory&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=dir&slk=2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trixie Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'm about ready to give up on science until high school. In the 8 years I've been homeschooling, I haven't found a secular science program that I really like. I've given up on finding a specific curriculum for my very science-minded ds for precisely that reason. We've pieced together units on subjects of interest from various sources (with a lot of input from the many working scientists in the family). Honestly, I'd rather not use a program at all, than use one that teaches material I don't believe. I also am concerned that the vast majority of science curricula marketed to homeschoolers teaches something I don't believe; more importantly, however, I question the reliability of the materials. This is my hard-and-fast position and not one I'm going to debate; others are certainly free to hold a different position. But I would no more trust a science program from someone who rejects the most fundamental principles and methods of the discipline than I would trust a 20th century history course from, say, Arthur Butz, regardless of his other academic/professional credentials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I appreciate the information. I've actually been looking at that curriculum. I'm about ready to give up on science until high school. In the 8 years I've been homeschooling, I haven't found a secular science program that I really like. I'm always embarrassed when I see threads on this board freaking out over the people who don't think science is important. I do think it's important, I just can't find an acceptable program! When I asked for a secular program on this board, I got more responses for Christian programs. I assumed they either didn't see the word 'secular' or thought I wouldn't mind using something religious anyway. :001_huh: Honestly, I'd rather not use a program at all, than use one that teaches material I don't believe. OMG this is me, too. Sigh. I've really found an appalling dearth of secular science materials out there for the homeschooling market. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) SECULAR CONTENT. After reading some posts by Dr. Keller on her yahoo group I no longer believe she can keep her religious views separate from her curriculum. In general, she made some points about gradually winning over atheists and how to disprove evolution. Hmmm... I believe in a creator, but evolution does occur, so it would be mighty hard to know how to go about doing that.:001_huh: In any case, I doubt that disproving evolution is a good way to go about "winning over" atheists. Edited October 20, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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