When your child refuses the go to bed

[MamaBearTeacher]

He has been very defiant today in general.  He is ten.  I'm tired.  He's just sitting downstairs right now.  

 

He has an early bedtime because his body needs it.

[maize]

No advice but hugs.

 

Is this common or does he usually not resist much at bed time?

[MamaBearTeacher]

He has not resisted in a while and usually it is just because he wants to stay up later but now it is just defiance.  

 

The defiance has gotten too loud and I don't know what to do about it.  

[Janeway]

How early is his bedtime?

[El...]

There are times when the pace of growth seems to be too much for self-control to keep up - like Dd is losing her ability to moderate her feelings due to a growth spurt.  It comes and then goes.  I might offer more food.  How about a spoon of cream cheese?  Or peanut butter? 

 

That said, any and all fun tomorrow would be duly cancelled.  Flat cancelled.  Obviously, he will be too tired to have any fun tomorrow.

 

Hang in there.

 

 

[umsami]

Have you tried allowing some in-bed reading or listening to music time?  That sometimes helps.  I'd frame it as...I see you're getting older, so I'm going to let you read in bed (or listen to music or draw or ???) for 30 minutes prior to lights out.  (For me, bedtime is both about their bodies needing sleep, but also about me needing a few hours of "me" time to do things.)

 

We've also had success with melatonin (5 mg) after dinner.

Edited March 26, 2017 by umsami

[El...]

Also, I can hear my 5yo Ds also warming up for a conflict this evening.  :huh:

[maize]

Is he becoming more defiant in general? At ten he could be experiencing the beginnings of hormonal surges. I imagine you have been through that with your older sons.

 

I'm hesitant to suggest anything for a challenging child I don't know personally.

 

My kids like to listen to audio books at bed time.

[bolt.]

Ok, I want you to know that this is totally normal. His "defiance" is most likely a type of being self-overwhelmed that is really common for late-10 and 11 year olds. If he's that age, it's actually about a neurological "growth spurt" in his emotional area of the brain. (The emotional areas 'get stronger' first, then the rational areas 'catch up' in the next phase of the growth spurt.)

 

He is really worried and scared by how strong his feelings are right now. He needs you to bring him a strong gesture of inclusion (perhaps a cookie) and just say to him, "I know it's really hard for you to think about bedtime right now. It's ok. You can stop thinking about it. Nothing is terribly wrong. You are ok. I am ok. I'm not mad at you. No one is mad at you. This is called a feeling storm, and if you just stop thinking about it for a while, you will slowly go back to feeling normal. I'll sit with you so that you can see that everything is ok. Look at my face, this is my 'everything is ok' face."

 

Then just keep calm and wait with him. Offer him calming helps like a book or other things that soothe or distract him. Tell him that talking can wait. You can solve bedtime later. He can count on you. Everything is ok.

 

It might take half an hour or so, but he will come back to his senses, probably seek comfort, and tell you he's really tired.

Edited March 27, 2017 by bolt.

[eternalsummer]

I do not require that they go to sleep or to a completely dark room by themselves at any particular time, but occasionally if I feel they're up too late (or I just want to be done with kids for the day) I send them to their room to do what they like quietly.  There are no screens (we don't own small electronics or tvs) so if they're just having an awake evening they read or make little paper things or draw or play dolls or something for a while and then drift off to sleep, which is fine with me.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

After 3 years of bedtime issues, mine is now on clonidine. 30 minutes after taking it, he's not capable of arguing. It's helped him to reset and he takes it without any issue and now looks forward to his better mornings.

[MamaBearTeacher]

Ok, I want you to know that this is totally normal. His "defiance" is most likely a type of being self-overwhelmed that is really common for late-10 and 11 year olds. If he's that age, it's actually about a neurological "grower spurt" in his emotional area of the brain.

 

He is really worried and scared by how strong his feelings are right now. He needs you to bring him a strong gesture of inclusion (perhaps a cookie) and just say to him, "I know it's really hard for you to think about bedtime right now. It's ok. You can stop thinking about it. Nothing is terribly wrong. You are ok. I am ok. I'm not mad at you. No one is mad at you. This is called a feeling storm, and if you just stop thinking about it for a while, you will slowly go back to feeling normal. I'll sit with you so that you can see that everything is ok. Look at my face, this is my 'everything is ok' face."

 

Then just keep calm and wait with him. Offer him calming helps like a book or other things that soothe or distract him. Tell him that talking can wait. You can solve bedtime later. He can count on you. Everything is ok.

 

It might take half an hour or so, but he will come back to his senses, probably seek comfort, and tell you he's really tired.

 

Yes, this is it.  His feelings become so big and then he is overwhelmed.  There is so much drama though.

[umsami]

Ok, I want you to know that this is totally normal. His "defiance" is most likely a type of being self-overwhelmed that is really common for late-10 and 11 year olds. If he's that age, it's actually about a neurological "grower spurt" in his emotional area of the brain.

 

He is really worried and scared by how strong his feelings are right now. He needs you to bring him a strong gesture of inclusion (perhaps a cookie) and just say to him, "I know it's really hard for you to think about bedtime right now. It's ok. You can stop thinking about it. Nothing is terribly wrong. You are ok. I am ok. I'm not mad at you. No one is mad at you. This is called a feeling storm, and if you just stop thinking about it for a while, you will slowly go back to feeling normal. I'll sit with you so that you can see that everything is ok. Look at my face, this is my 'everything is ok' face."

 

Then just keep calm and wait with him. Offer him calming helps like a book or other things that soothe or distract him. Tell him that talking can wait. You can solve bedtime later. He can count on you. Everything is ok.

 

It might take half an hour or so, but he will come back to his senses, probably seek comfort, and tell you he's really tired.

 

This was great.  Do you know of any resources (books/videos) to help explain this to kids?

[MercyA]

I wonder if this book would help: What to Do When You Dread Your Bed

 

We've found some other books in the series to be helpful.

 

I personally do discipline for defiance / disobedience, but know that's not everyone's thing. If I were in your situation, I would be taking away privileges until he got ready for bed and went to his room to rest.

Edited March 26, 2017 by MercyA

[LifeLovePassion]

Hylands Calm and restful tablets help here

 

And for the grown ups, listen Samuel L Jackson read Go the F to sleep.

Edited March 26, 2017 by LifeLovePassion

[heartlikealion]

I have a strong-willed child. He fights bedtime constantly. He does it with dh, too. He whines. He says he's hungry. He starts guilt trips (or tries. "I didn't get to do anything! I had to do homework and shower and eat dinner and I only got a few minutes of downtime"). He takes forever to brush his teeth. He says he doesn't sleep well alone (I think he's a little jealous that dd still sleeps in Mom and Dad's room). I have tried to push bedtime back and sometimes it works (other times it gets derailed by his time management with homework and eating or my inability to serve dinner at a consistent time), but it's especially hard to enforce on weekends (especially since dh is hard to get on board with early weekend bedtimes). We've taken away privileges and at the end of the day, he pretty much does the same things. All this to say, I don't think punishments/incentives work for all kids. He doesn't have much currency to work with and the ones he does don't always matter to him in the moment.

What bolt. said sounds like something I might hear in my positive disciplining group. Basically making a connection with your child. Most of the times I'm having trouble with my ds I don't have the opportunity to do this because I'm too swamped trying to settle down the toddler or my time management doesn't allow for us to add reading in bed because I already know he's not going to get as much sleep as he needs and he's going to be cranky in the morning. In theory I think I know that connection is key, but in reality it's really hard to start bonding when your child is acting out.

[SKL]

Sometimes my kids get themselves wound up to the point of acting irrational and against their own interests.  Usually I need to help them wind down again (which may take a half hour or so) so they can relax and go to sleep.

 

I will sit and talk to them one-on-one and try to get them to open up about what they are upset or worried about.  Usually they need to cry but are trying not to show their weakness.  Eventually they feel trust and cry and hug and feel normal again.

[Katy]

Is it a hormone/feeling thing, or is he the type of kid who's afraid to miss something?  If it's the latter (usually is in our house) -  If you're laughing and giggling and having fun after he's in bed, I've found it helps to stop that. Start yawning and mention being really tired half an hour before their bedtime and go to your own bed after he's in his.  A few weeks of this - them getting up to a quiet house where everyone is in bed - and they stop fighting the time for sleep thing.

 

This is why we have a TV in our bedroom.  In dire situations I have also been known to flip the breaker on the entertainment center just to ensure compliance.

[Peaceful Isle]

I let my son stay up a bit later. I let him read , and also sometimes I let him watch a show or two in bed. I give him melatonin and nighttime essential oils. This combination makes for a very happy son and mother. 💕

[Mergath]

Is it possible he's ready for a later bedtime? Can he stay up later and then sleep in? I'm on a much later rhythm than most people, and if I have to go to bed early and get up early I'm not a pleasant person to be around.

 

Also, around here bedtime doesn't mean dd has to go to bed and sleep, but that she needs to be in bed reading or doing something quiet. I've always found that being flexible about that kind of thing makes for a much nicer evening for everyone involved. ;)

[lailasmum]

I found my daughter did better with a later bedtime around that age. She just wasn't sleepy enough on the earlier bed time schedule and would get really stressed about not being able to sleep which made it a problem. When I stopped making it an issue it mosly resolved itself because she could hang out in her bedroom drawing or reading for a while and naturally wind down without thinking she should be asleep. All she had to do was be doing something calm and no screens.

Edited March 26, 2017 by lailasmum

[MamaBearTeacher]

I was in my pjs and in bed before him. I was feeling extremely tired yesterday for some reason. he finally went up when we shut all the lights.

 

Last night it was defiance because there was defiance throughout the day. He has a 7:30 bedtime but sometimes it gets dragged to 8:00. He NEEDS it because otherwise he is in a bad mood and doesn't wake up in time for school in the morning.

 

Last night he was screaming and yelling. I hugged him and told him that I did not want to talk about it and wanted to go to sleep. He said very emphatically that he wanted to talk about it and look at it with a magnifying glass.

[Mergath]

I was in my pjs and in bed before him. I was feeling extremely tired yesterday for some reason. he finally went up when we shut all the lights.

 

Last night it was defiance because there was defiance throughout the day. He has a 7:30 bedtime but sometimes it gets dragged to 8:00. He NEEDS it because otherwise he is in a bad mood and doesn't wake up in time for school in the morning.

 

Last night he was screaming and yelling. I hugged him and told him that I did not want to talk about it and wanted to go to sleep. He said very emphatically that he wanted to talk about it and look at it with a magnifying glass.

 

Does he go to PS or is he homeschooled? If he's HSed, could he just sleep in later? It's pretty common for kids' schedules to shift later as they approach the teen years.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know that some of your kids are special needs.  Is this a special needs child? 

[LifeLovePassion]

We have a weighted blanket that helps a lot too. I put music on, lights out, use a a calming essential oil, stars projected on the ceiling and instructions to stay in bed and calm your body. I do hope you got some rest.

[sassenach]

I was in my pjs and in bed before him. I was feeling extremely tired yesterday for some reason. he finally went up when we shut all the lights.

 

Last night it was defiance because there was defiance throughout the day. He has a 7:30 bedtime but sometimes it gets dragged to 8:00. He NEEDS it because otherwise he is in a bad mood and doesn't wake up in time for school in the morning.

 

Last night he was screaming and yelling. I hugged him and told him that I did not want to talk about it and wanted to go to sleep. He said very emphatically that he wanted to talk about it and look at it with a magnifying glass.

Sorry, mom, but that made me laugh. Yup, you've got your hands full!

 

He's approaching the age where he wants more agency over his body. Totally normal and appropriate. He'll also have to learn that he cannot force his will onto others. You are trying to "make" him go to sleep. He is trying to "make" you stay up and talk. In reality, neither of you can force each other to do those things. There has to be some agreement by the owner of the body to comply/participate in what the other wants.

 

So what's a mom to do? In that case, knowing that no reasoning was going to happen, I would go to bed. I'd say something like, "Son, I'm tired. I think you should go to bed, but I can't make you. So I'm going to sleep, and you'll need to put yourself to bed when you're ready. Please turn the lights out when you go to your room."

 

This would show him that 1) He can't force his will on you, 2) He's correct in his hunch that you can't force your will on him, 3) Everyone still needs sleep.

 

Have you heard of the book "You Can't Make Me, but I Can Be Persuaded?" What I love about that book is it's not about forcing compliance. Instead, it's about how we interact and talk to our strong-willed kids in order to not get into these battles. It's a short book, but super practical. 

[Minerva]

My hormonal dd started having severe bedtime anxiety around ten. It really helped her that I acknowledged her fears and worked on finding ways to help her work through them. For about a year we would read non scary books before bed, snuggle, talk, and work on relaxing. It was a long, hard year, but we seem to be through it now. She has techniques for getting to bed on her own and only rarely needs me to go through the never-ending-bedtime-routine. 

 

:grouphug:

[almondbutterandjelly]

Just throwing this out there... is it possible he doesn't want to go to sleep because he is having nightmares?  Around that age, my dd (and at least one of her friends) had nightmares every night for 3 months.  Every night.  I did some research, and it's all that brain growth.  But it was hard, and nothing helped.  Then one day, it was over.

[umsami]

Yes, second and third the nightmares/night terrors possibility.  Three of my kids have had that happen around 9-10 years of age.

[kbutton]

I was in my pjs and in bed before him. I was feeling extremely tired yesterday for some reason. he finally went up when we shut all the lights.

 

Last night it was defiance because there was defiance throughout the day. He has a 7:30 bedtime but sometimes it gets dragged to 8:00. He NEEDS it because otherwise he is in a bad mood and doesn't wake up in time for school in the morning.

 

Last night he was screaming and yelling. I hugged him and told him that I did not want to talk about it and wanted to go to sleep. He said very emphatically that he wanted to talk about it and look at it with a magnifying glass.

 

I wonder if you could find a time to talk about this kind of stuff during the day. (If he's in school, I'm sure that's more challenging.) 

 

Hang in there--sometimes getting this conversation out in a productive way that gets to the root of the stress requires mind-reading and a lot of good guessing. 

 

If he's defiant during the day, then he's probably stressing about it during the day too.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[JessReplanted]

 

Bedtime is not an option here. While you can't make a child go to sleep, you can require that they be in their bed with the light off.

 

We have early "reading time" and then a specific time for "lights out." As the kids get older, I am sometimes more lenient, but I cannot handle kids up and out of their rooms.

I need them in bed for my own sanity. Any child who continually defies this would have consequences (at 10, that would be losing privileges and beloved toys).

[FlyingMOm]

I'm with Jess, above.   Bedtime is not an option.   However, I don't care what they are doing in their room as long as they are in the room.   I can't force them to go to sleep.   But defiantly sitting on the couch and refusing to go upstairs is totally, completely unacceptable.   

[Terabith]

7:30 seems like a crazy early bedtime for a 10 year old.

[Mergath]

7:30 seems like a crazy early bedtime for a 10 year old.

 

:iagree:  My dd is eight and she just has to be in bed reading or doing something quietly by 9:30.

 

[heartlikealion]

I was in my pjs and in bed before him. I was feeling extremely tired yesterday for some reason. he finally went up when we shut all the lights.

 

Last night it was defiance because there was defiance throughout the day. He has a 7:30 bedtime but sometimes it gets dragged to 8:00. He NEEDS it because otherwise he is in a bad mood and doesn't wake up in time for school in the morning.

 

Last night he was screaming and yelling. I hugged him and told him that I did not want to talk about it and wanted to go to sleep. He said very emphatically that he wanted to talk about it and look at it with a magnifying glass.

 

7:30 seems like a crazy early bedtime for a 10 year old.

 

:iagree:  My dd is eight and she just has to be in bed reading or doing something quietly by 9:30.

 

Sounds like he goes to brick & mortar school so shifting the bedtime later will just cause problems in the morning.

[Mergath]

Sounds like he goes to brick & mortar school so shifting the bedtime later will just cause problems in the morning.

 

That's what I was asking about earlier. I know there are HSers who have a set time they start school every morning, so I wanted to clarify.

[bolt.]

My 12 year old goes "to bed" at 7:30, but she goes to sleep when she is sleepy. It's unusual but not unheard of for kids to be getting a lot of sleep at that age -- they really seem to need it.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Mine was a 6pm to 6-7am sleeper from early baby until about 9.5 years old! We only lost bedtime when my father stayed with us for a month. He still needs to go to bed that early, but won't.

[Zinnia]

My 10 year old also has an 8pm bedtime. He rarely fights it, but he gets up at 6 for b&m school