Classical or Neoclassical?

[riada]

Classical being Latin based and Neoclassical being based on the trivium but without Latin. This is how I have understood the differences to be. Please correct me if I am wrong. I know several others on the board use a CM method or some mixture of the above. I'm mostly interested in seeing who uses a true classical education method and who uses a neoclassical style.

[dangermom]

By classical do you mean Drew's Latin-centered education? Because while we study Latin very happily (and Greek too), I would not call our school Latin-based, as you say in option 1. So I'm a bit confused by your poll, because my choice would be "WTM-esque classical: trivium with Latin." And you don't seem to have that option.

[Lovedtodeath]

I voted #2, but my sig sums it up for now. We'll see if I stick with WTM or surrender to a put together curriculum later. (most likely WinterPromise)

[WTMCassandra]

I voted "classical" according to the definitions you provided, but you might want to know that SWB says that we are all "neoclassicists" because we don't live in Rome and cannot exactly duplicate what they did. :)

 

Also, all over the different places and different times in Rome, the concept adjusted and shifted, so which model would you pick to exactly duplicate?

 

It's hard to convey tone over the internet, but I'm saying this with friendly intent. In the classical homeschooling "world," people have hotly debated who is more classical than whom . . . and I wasn't sure you were aware.

[Peela]

I am not sure why you would put "neoclassical" as being without Latin. Many people do neo-classical WITH Latin, yet arent so Latin-centred as LCC promotes. Isn't that what TWTM is, after all?

 

I am a strange mixture and I don't bother trying to classify myself into a neat box any more. The LCC approach inspired me to put Maths, Latin and some English at the forefront of our day. However sometimes we go into a book very deeply,(The Iliad and LOTR were both long studies) and sometimes we read lots of books at once like CM. I am using a fair amount of Ambleside/HEO at present but only because the year I am using (7) fits nicely with our Medieval year in our 4 year cycle. I think we are probably more history centred, like TWTM, than Latin centred, even though we do Latin. I have moved away from workbooks and tried to cut out any extra subjects that seemed like my kids werent getting much out of- like vocabulary as a separate subject, even spelling. I have a child with LDs and I design his program to work for him. Parts of CM appeal to me, especially making sure the child is well rounded- such as having time in nature and using their hands.

Our emphasis seems to change each year, here and there. I like it like that.

[Chris in VA]

I agree with Dangermom.

We do Latin, follow WTM's history rotation (except when we don't! lol) and read the GB's for high school, but I'd say we are not Latin Centered, like Drew's LCC, because we don't include classical studies (Greek and Roman culture and language) every year. We are a little CM, what with Nature Study and all, but we do more vigorous grammar.

So, we

Follow the 4 yr rotation

Study Latin

Have Nature Study as part of our week

Don't follow WTM science all that closely

Read many books tied to history but not only them

Try to avoid twaddle

Read the Great Books in high school but aren't as good about writing as we should be.

[cajun.classical]

I voted "other." We combine LCC and CM, as well as a heathly dose of CiRCE--which itself is a combo of LCC and CM.

[Bula Mama]

Hum, I guess you'd call us classical (with the older dc studying Latin) with a Charlotte Mason flair (especially the younger dc). :001_smile:

[dragons in the flower bed]

This is a debate without good answers.

 

Technically we are all neoclassical. It is difficult and perhaps counterproductive to look sideways, to divide in order to define things clearly, while we are all standing together at the front lines of the resurrection of pre-Webster forms of education.

 

It comes up often, though, because labels help us understand what a fellow homeschooler is doing at once. But more than that, I think, it comes up because good labels help us gather up a few ideas and only when gathered up can we find what they have in common. It also gets brought up often I suspect because rigorous homeschoolers are learners at heart, curious people who want to know things.

 

What we all are doing is less like a column chart and more like an elaborate diagram of circles over circles. Forgive the complete lack of actual math in the diagram below. It would be a fascinating statistical study to make an accurate version, but not a project for a response to a board post on a lazy Sunday morning. :D

 

[Jami]

I voted "other." We combine LCC and CM, as well as a heathly dose of CiRCE--which itself is a combo of LCC and CM.

 

Voting other also and just saying "ditto" since I basically just copy Angelina. :D

 

There are also WTM elements to what we do, particularly with language arts, but those also find overlap in CM and LCC in the younger years.

[Jami]

That's cool, Rose!

[Beth in SW WA]

Wow, Rose! Great visual aid!

 

And fascinating thread. I've enjoyed all the responses.

 

As we do high school level work, I'm finding us pigeon-holed into a traditional format.

 

Math

English

History

Science

Foreign Language

Elective (Bible and Logic)

 

Boring, I know. I hate it. My goal is to do the LCC/TWTM hybrid form (which I adhere to) w/o worrying about how it will look on a transcript.

 

Sciene is the bugger for us. High school science is time-consuming -- and will rob precious time from our Latin & GB study. I'm not thrilled about that.

 

Such is life...

[Chris in VA]

Beth, just wanted to encourage you--remember, some of the WTM recommended GB's are science books. They can be incorporated into any of the "major" sciences you might be doing. Two birds, one stone...!

[Chris in VA]

Rose, see that tiny corner where everything except Waldorf and Unit Studies comes together?j

 

THAT'S US!!!

 

lol

Thanks for giving us a place.

[chaik76]

Combo of Neo-classical and classical, with lots of hands-on thrown in, and a far greater emphasis on science than either neo-classical or classical does in the early years.

[Kathie in VA]

Well I've allowed my oldest (14) to drop latin as we just kept not getting to it and she really wanted to start a modern language. I have my younger two boys (12 and 9) doing Lively Latin and they have all done some latin with Classical Conversations-Foundations.

 

I started with History as the center via WTM but I've shifted as different things came up. However it has always been the core for pulling in literature. Now my 8 yr old does Foundations memory work and reads a similar time in history for literature as the history sentences we memorize and we do science following the science sentences. He also sits with us as the older kids do Sonlight for the reading aloud of the spine... since we are all on the same time period in history. (I really like the idea of reading one chron spine for history)

 

I really like were Classical Writing is taking us so I may use that as a focal point... the later levels include additional literature readings. I think that if we can follow that then maybe history will drop down to just history without the related literature.

 

All in all I don't know what our label is..... I do try to keep to the idea of the trivium for all subjects though... that is, teaching the grammar of a subject first, then adding in the logic and then finally the rhetoric.

[Mama Lynx]

I voted LCC classical. We use Drew's philosophy, but do not quite follow his curriculum as laid out.

 

Love the graphic, Rose!

[Plaid Dad]

I do try to keep to the idea of the trivium for all subjects though... that is, teaching the grammar of a subject first, then adding in the logic and then finally the rhetoric.

 

This is really the crux of the difference (imo) between neoclassical and traditional classical ideas. If you follow Dorothy Sayers in viewing the trivium primarily as stages, that's what's come to be called "neoclassical," and would cover almost all of the modern homeschooling methods that use the classical label: WTM, Wilson/Logos School/ACCS, Bluedorns, Berquist, Miller.... Because Dorothy Sayers separated the form from the traditional content of classical education, it's possible to substitute English language arts for Latin and still be following the ages-and-stage trivium concept. Still, most neoclassical educators promote the study of Latin, at least to a limited extent.

[dragons in the flower bed]

Rose, see that tiny corner where everything except Waldorf and Unit Studies comes together?j

 

THAT'S US!!!

 

 

 

I know more than one family that does that. Come to think of it, I know an LCC'ing unit study Waldorf family too (and considered it for us once). It would be such a blast to make that graphic accurate...

 

Also, meant to say, I did vote in the poll that we're Latin-based because I figured you were referring to LCC.

[Lovedtodeath]

Did you see How TWTMish is your homeschool? that we had a while back? There is more of this type of talk there.

 

Poll: What is your homeschooling method? and this one too!

 

I am not following the science and history rotation until the logic stage, but I am putting an emphasis on language arts, and keeping the science and history down to the appropriate times according to the book.

 

Drew: So are you saying that Classical Ed does not follow the trivium in the same way that we are modeling, or are you saying that the trivium is about the only thing that neo-classical and classical have in common?

Edited December 28, 2008 by Lovedtodeath

[Plaid Dad]

Drew: So are you saying that Classical Ed does not follow the trivium in the same way that we are modeling, or are you saying that the trivium is about the only thing that neo-classical and classical have in common?

 

I'm saying that neoclassical and traditional classical education have two different views of the trivium. I've written more about that in LCC (particularly in the 2nd edition) and here.

[Surfside Academy]

I consider myself neoclassical although we also do Latin; I just wouldn't call it "latin-centered." I also love TWTM!

[lionfamily1999]

I put "other." Andrew is learning Latin, but we're not "Latin based."

 

I'm following WTM and the curr./schedule in there...

Edited December 29, 2008 by lionfamily1999
Because I read the other posts and answered my own question.

[mcconnellboys]

I thought true classical must involve both Latin AND Greek, so I've classed myself more neoclassical, as we just do Latin. I do a mixture of this and CM methods, especially for the elementary years.

[WTMindy]

I consider WTM to be neo-classical and they recommend Latin. So, I don't really know how to vote because I would say we are neo-classical who do Latin, but we certainly don't center our education around it. We follow the ideas and goals in WTM pretty closely.

[sagira]

Charlotte Mason here. I see a lot of similarities between CM and Neoclassical, especially as the children get older.

[riada]

Love this! Great job.

[yslek]

I voted "other". I have followed "neoclassical" methods for some time, most recently WTM. After reading LCC, I've given myself permission to focus on the core subjects (of Latin, Math, and here, Enlgish) and reduce history, science, and other subjects to once (or twice!) a week. I no longer stress if I don't get everything done for the day; if we get our core stuff done, great!

 

I do still use the WTM history recommendations, and SWB's writing program. And there are some things I haven't been able to let go (such as English grammar study). We also do NOEO science rather than the WTM or LCC science recommendations. It works well for us, and gets done. (I'm forever intending to do nature study, but we hardly ever do.)

 

Over time, I think that WTM is going to be a much better fit for B, while T will do well with a Latin (and Greek) centered education. B had a lot of trouble with Latin this year, so I allowed him to slow way down. If he doesn't end up reading the classics in Latin, it'll be OK. ;)

 

I'm happiest with this mix. When I was following just WTM, I drove myself crazy with guilt over not getting everything done. When I read LCC, I felt relieved to have a focal point, but trying to switch to all of the LCC recs & trying to center B's education on Latin became stressful. Using elements from both books has helped me find a good balance for my home (& greatly reduced my stress levels!)

[riada]

After reading the responses I'm aware that I didn't word the poll correctly. I should have put Neoclassical with Latin, but not at the center instead of Neoclassical without Latin. Sorry for that.

 

It's been interesting to read the responses of how everyone classifies their style of schooling. I struggle with what to say when asked what method I use. Eclectic is too open and requires more explanation. Yet I can't clearly define classical vs. neoclassical (in the poll I did the best I could from what I understand of it). Thanks for all the responses.:001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

After reading the responses I'm aware that I didn't word the poll correctly. I should have put Neoclassical with Latin, but not at the center instead of Neoclassical without Latin. Sorry for that.

 

It's been interesting to read the responses of how everyone classifies their style of schooling. I struggle with what to say when asked what method I use. Eclectic is too open and requires more explanation. Yet I can't clearly define classical vs. neoclassical (in the poll I did the best I could from what I understand of it). Thanks for all the responses.:001_smile:

 

I think a couple of more categories were needed. I know what you mean about not knowing what to say. I can't say classical at all technically, as we have no plans to learn any ancient languages. "Relaxed Classical", "My own version of WTM" or "Literature based" all work for me. Most people IRL don't care how specific it is (and haven't even heard of WTM or CM)... and people on these boards are willing to listen to more details, so it works itself out. :)

 

And then there are those who come to the WTM boards and say that WTM is not classical without a context and create confusion.:glare: IMO that is kinda rude since these are WTM boards based on the book, and the book itself claims to be classical education. I am glad Drew posted his link so that I can understand what they are talking about.

[CactusPair]

I don't know what I am!

 

I'm not into following the history cycle as a way of life and I haven't started Latin yet. I cover the basics with an emphasis on math and phonics.

 

We've started to do narrations this year as a routine. I'm not CM, though, as I don't like the idea of many short lessons and the quaintness doesn't suit us.

 

I try to read aloud from many sources and keep it fun. My dc play a lot, which I think is important right now.

[coffeefreak]

We're a mix of CM and Neoclassical right now. I hope to add Latin some day, but finding the time is the issue :)

[jenadina]

We're definitely a mix of LCC and WTM...We do our core stuff daily (Latin, Math, Language Arts, and Spanish) and our content subjects each once weekly. We *do* do chronological history, rather than LCC rec's, though I'd dearly love to know about the dual-track thing from the 1st ed (I have only the 2nd ed.), as that sounds like something I'd like and my son really enjoys mythology. I don't follow either for science, preferring instead to integrate science a la BFSU. We do not learn language arts through Latin, mostly because my own grammar skills aren't up to snuff. We use WWE for now, but will be switching over to CW when DS is ready for it.

 

Our day (1st grade work) is 3-4 hours, depending on which content subject we have for the day, which leaves DS lots of time to play and explore on his own :)

[katilac]

We are neo-classical. We do teach Latin, but I wouldn't say we are Latin centered.

[Heather in WI]

I put 'other'.

 

We follow TWTM pretty closely & study Latin, too. :-)

[Beth in SW WA]

Beth, just wanted to encourage you--remember, some of the WTM recommended GB's are science books. They can be incorporated into any of the "major" sciences you might be doing. Two birds, one stone...!

 

Thanks, Chris!

[Trivium Academy]

Charlotte Mason, Trivium, Latin

You could read WTM, Charlotte Mason, Latin-Centered Curriculum and think we follow each b/c so many elements of our homeschool are components of each of these. Classical/Neoclassical- that depends on your definition and I don't agree that Neoclassical is without Latin, WTM is Neoclassical with Latin.

[Saille]

Hm.

 

I always find this topic fascinating.

 

Here are some other common choices that Latin-centered homeschoolers may make:

 

 

• Limiting the number of daily core subjects to a small number, typically Latin and/or Greek, math, and composition (writing).
  
• Teaching other subjects, such as science, geography, and history, on a weekly or semi-weekly rotation.
  
• Approaching science and history informally in the early years.
  
• Favoring writing programs based on the progymnasmata.
  
• Limiting study of the Great Books to a short list of representative masterpieces.
  

 

Latin-centered classical educators aren't interested in trying to do it all. Instead, they focus on mastery of a few key subjects and familiarity with the foundational stories of our culture. Sometimes less really is more.

 

 

This all sounds like us. But I do follow the four-year WTM rotations for Science and History. I prefer them.

 

I've found that the main appeal of Waldorf and unit study methods was that I wanted to give my children ample time to immerse themselves in topics of interest, and in free play. So far, that's not conflicting with LCC as I apply it, which has led me to feel I can identify with LCC sans caveats. So, I suppose that's what we are.

 

I keep digging, though. I'd love a thread on how people apply LCC in their homes.