Another homeschooling article, this one about severe abuse

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I’m actually less concerned about abuse in homeschool environments (though I do agree that families that abuse kids might use homeschooling as a way of hiding abuse) than I am about educational neglect, because I really do believe kids have a right to an education.  

I think it’s really important to keep the 2 issues separate.  Most regulation that are geared towards educational neglect will do very little if anything for physical abuse.  Notification, testing, portfolio reviews, etc.  do nothing to ensure children aren’t being physically abused.  
 

I have no problem with regulations that are trying to fix educational neglect, as long as disability is accounted for which is where the problem usually lies.  

[Terabith]

46 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think it’s really important to keep the 2 issues separate.  Most regulation that are geared towards educational neglect will do very little if anything for physical abuse.  Notification, testing, portfolio reviews, etc.  do nothing to ensure children aren’t being physically abused.  
 

I have no problem with regulations that are trying to fix educational neglect, as long as disability is accounted for which is where the problem usually lies.  

Oh yes, I agree 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

Both! 

And especially just more workers. About 15 years ago or there about - Under Governor Granholm - the budget was cut to the bone and the caseload for social workers left behind was tripled and in some cases quadrupled. So a lot of stuff never even get followed up on, and families under supervision aren't actually supervised. Burn out is beyond the pale of reason. So for Michigan, a massive problem. Then the state got behind on billing the counties for their portion of the foster care bill for their children in the system. Our county didn't know it was $400,000 behind on paying the state and then had 30 days to pay it. They basically ordered CPS in our county to return every single child to their bio parents that month in retaliation since they fired a bunch of county workers in order to take the funds out of payroll. No flipping joke. Our stupid county commissioners bungle every budget they have, spend on stuff they shouldn't, never put a dime away, and then fire people when things get tough only to have to rehire those positions later.

Corruption, corruption, corruption.

[maize]

Wow @Faith-manor, that really is egregious mismanagement!

[Dmmetler]

5 hours ago, Innisfree said:

The thing is, the world has no way to tell who is really teaching their kids and who is isolating and abusing them, especially if they’re in a state with no requirement of registration, testing, occasional contact with mandated reporters, or anything. Even after the cases discussed in this article, HSLDA argues for no oversight at all. I’ve homeschooled, as most of us have. I know testing, notification, and so on can be a pain. But in the face of abuse like this, I can’t possibly argue against some kind of regulation that gets the kids in touch with the outside world a couple of times a year.

What I'd like to see is more funding of community programs for homeschoolers via libraries, parks and rec, performing arts centers, and the like-as well as part time options to be included in PS classes and extracurriculars. It won't get everyone, but it would get a lot of homeschooled kids in a place to see an outside adult. A library book club or a chance to do science projects would potentially catch kids who are struggling with reading or math and the parents could be pointed towards resources, and if a parent is really frustrated and at risk of lashing out abusively, it would give them a break, and possibly allow intervention earlier. It wouldn't catch those who are deliberately isolating their kids to neglect or abuse them, but it would help a lot.

 

This is one reason why, while I have big concerns about the proposed voucher programs that so many states are trying to push in, I can see benefits of a voucher or a homeschooling charter for homeschoolers. Because with money comes some accountability and oversight. 

[Heartstrings]

24 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

And especially just more workers. About 15 years ago or there about - Under Governor Granholm - the budget was cut to the bone and the caseload for social workers left behind was tripled and in some cases quadrupled. So a lot of stuff never even get followed up on, and families under supervision aren't actually supervised. Burn out is beyond the pale of reason. So for Michigan, a massive problem. Then the state got behind on billing the counties for their portion of the foster care bill for their children in the system. Our county didn't know it was $400,000 behind on paying the state and then had 30 days to pay it. They basically ordered CPS in our county to return every single child to their bio parents that month in retaliation since they fired a bunch of county workers in order to take the funds out of payroll. No flipping joke. Our stupid county commissioners bungle every budget they have, spend on stuff they shouldn't, never put a dime away, and then fire people when things get tough only to have to rehire those positions later.

Corruption, corruption, corruption.

Since the article we're talking about is based in Michigan, it really seems like ALL OF THIS should been featured more than homeschooling.  But it's so much easier to blame homeschooling than to delve into all this corruption, especially in a national format.  How is this boy's death the Face of Homeschooling and not the Face of a CPS in Michigan and a warning tale of what happens when you just don't bother with funding children's services? 

 

 

ETA:  The mom's sister tried to contact CPS with concerns but no one ever followed up.  I'm not sure what the point is of increased regulations if CPS can't deal with what it has already.  It's more stuff heaped onto an already broken system and helps no one at all. 

 

"Campbell suspected there was something badly wrong inside her sister’s house. She said that after seeing bruises on Roman’s face at a Christmas get-together in 2016, she called child protective services.

She made two follow-up calls, she said, but could never determine whether any action was taken. Police later said they found no records of CPS investigations into Piper’s treatment of Roman. A spokesman for the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services — which oversees such investigations — declined to comment, citing the confidentiality of child-welfare cases."  

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Heartstrings

[frogger]

I would like to say this is a Michigan problem but I know my state has similar issues and past cases where calls were made and children left to die. 

But children don't vote...

And can't call their representatives...

And society gets momentarily enraged and then goes about its own business...

[Carrie12345]

33 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

And especially just more workers.

You can’t attract more workers without AT LEAST living wages.  My county is working at 60% staff. 

Caseworker salary? Under $37k. 2 years experience + 2 year degree, or 4yr degree.

Foster care coordinator? 30 home roster with monthly visits plus recruiting, training (public and in-house), case management meetings for each child in 30 homes, transportations, annual evaluations, paperwork, answer foster carers’ communications, on call for placements, and any duties assigned by manager. No salary listed.

 

 

[Faith-manor]

52 minutes ago, maize said:

Wow @Faith-manor, that really is egregious mismanagement!

It truly is. In recent years, though we are a 40% of all revenue comes from agriculture, they tried to eliminate the county extension office because they are required to pay about $60,000 a year towards its operation with the rest coming from the state through MSU. People went nuts on them! No soil testing, water testing horticulturalist, no master gardener program, you name it, in a rural, agricultural community. They were going to give tax rebates to some friends of theirs for doing well, exactly nothing for the county, and then vote themselves huge pay raises.

Sigh. Anyway. Off topic and getting political so I will seethe quietly to self from here on out! 

[Clemsondana]

One of the issues is that every policy has unintended consequences.  A friend who has had hundreds of foster kids says that mandated reporting is a problem, because it keeps people from asking for help.  My personal experience is a friend who, for fun, used a mind-altering substance (the first time since college) after putting her kids to bed.  Her kid woke up sick and she called a friend to help - could the kid have gotten into the substance?  As a mandated reporter, the friend called CPS and started my friend on a year-long process of having to go to drug rehab - the case worker had to fight to keep both parents from being sent to inpatient clinics.  Her mom had to move in because she couldn't be unsupervised with her kids for 6 months.  I can't imagine that society would be helped if, any time somebody overindulged in alcohol on a Friday night they risked losing their kids.  We need a society in which somebody can bang on the neighbor's door and say 'Help' and get help.  This is said as somebody who doesn't even drink alcohol.

So, I've got 2 different thoughts.  First, how do we learn to discern where the real danger?  How do cases of abuse that are reported multiple times wind up unchecked, while somebody who gets drunk can wind up with a time-consuming year of twice-a-week follow up?  And, second, how do we figure out what policies will actually be beneficial?  I would have thought that mandated reporters would be a good idea.  I wouldn't have foreseen that, for people with experience with the system, they just quit asking for help for anything that they fear will get them in trouble.  For 'bad but not abusive' situations, that's not a good trade-off.  We don't want a tipsy person to make bad judgements in dealing with a sick kid because they are afraid to ask somebody for help.  I mean, ideally they wouldn't be tipsy when supervising kids, but still...  But, when somebody calls CPS and says that they see abuse, we want that checked.  Until our agencies can manage that, I don't see how putting more work on their plates by asking them to supervise homeschoolers would be beneficial, since it would draw resources away from the reported cases that are already being reported.  I don't primarily think it's a matter of money.  Theere are long waits to see counselors and psychiatrists, too, and those are the sorts of people who would be involved in these types of situations.  I think that there's just more need than we are prepared to deal with.  But, by forcing more of it to officials rather than an involved community, we may be creating that situation.  

[SKL]

I don't see where anyone is saying we need to end homeschooling and send all children to school.

The lawmakers are just trying to make sure someone who's a mandated reporter sees homeschooled children occasionally.  I have said similar in the past.

I don't know the right frequency.  If it's too infrequent, people can manipulate things to make it look less bad than it is.  But at least it would help with kids who are tortured and neglected over the long term.

I don't believe there are caring homeschoolers who honestly believe their children are better off never being seen in public.  How hard is it to get homeschooled kids into some social activity outside the home, to take them to a doctor and dentist at reasonable intervals?  Or for kids who have severe disabilities making social activities unrealistic, then therapy sessions?

[Clemsondana]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

I don't believe there are caring homeschoolers who honestly believe their children are better off never being seen in public.  How hard is it to get homeschooled kids into some social activity outside the home, to take them to a doctor and dentist at reasonable intervals?  Or for kids who have severe disabilities making social activities unrealistic, then therapy sessions?

This is true, but what is being proposed is that somebody somewhere keep track of this and figure out what are acceptable levels of being seen, and who is an acceptable see-er.  That's a lot of monitoring and record keeping.  My own kids are seen almost daily by somebody - our homeschool group, our science olympiad team, our church, various ball coaches and martial arts instructors and a music teacher and a scout leader and a yearly sports physical.  But who is going to check with those people to ensure that my kids were seen?  Who decides who is trustworthy?  Or are we saying that I also need to take them to be seen by somebody else?  Who would that be, and how often would I need to do it?  

[Heartstrings]

28 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

This is true, but what is being proposed is that somebody somewhere keep track of this and figure out what are acceptable levels of being seen, and who is an acceptable see-er.  That's a lot of monitoring and record keeping.  My own kids are seen almost daily by somebody - our homeschool group, our science olympiad team, our church, various ball coaches and martial arts instructors and a music teacher and a scout leader and a yearly sports physical.  But who is going to check with those people to ensure that my kids were seen?  Who decides who is trustworthy?  Or are we saying that I also need to take them to be seen by somebody else?  Who would that be, and how often would I need to do it?  

And what age will this start?  Infancy through Kindergarten?  It’s going to apply to all kids that aren’t in a school setting, I’m sure.  Stay-at-home parents with babies and toddlers are surely going to need the same oversight.  
 

And definitely, public schooled kids in the summer, to ensure they’re eating and stuff right?

What about private schools without certified teachers?  

Edited December 2, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Shoeless]

8 hours ago, Innisfree said:

The thing is, the world has no way to tell who is really teaching their kids and who is isolating and abusing them, especially if they’re in a state with no requirement of registration, testing, occasional contact with mandated reporters, or anything. Even after the cases discussed in this article, HSLDA argues for no oversight at all. I’ve homeschooled, as most of us have. I know testing, notification, and so on can be a pain. But in the face of abuse like this, I can’t possibly argue against some kind of regulation that gets the kids in touch with the outside world a couple of times a year.

Should laws also require kids below the age of compulsory education to be monitored and presented to mandatory reporters a few times a year? 

 

[SKL]

It's not as if you don't already need to do record-keeping for every child.

The "too much record-keeping" argument just sounds to me like digging in.

For people who don't know, a little research will reveal that there are many types of individuals who are mandatory reporters.  Outside of school, my kids have always had tons of interaction with them, and this is easy to prove.  Just like there are numerous ways to prove your residency for a driver's license, it should not be that hard to gather up documents and bring them to someone, whether that be a school employee, health professional, government office, or someone else.  Certain types of documents (those not easily falsified) could be submitted online.  People who won't do this much can, instead, be monitored more closely.

[SKL]

Compared to all the hoops one needs to jump through to be an adoptive parent, or to be the parent of a public-schooled child for that matter, this is a miniscule ask that could make an actual difference to kids at risk.

[maize]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

It's not as if you don't already need to do record-keeping for every child.

I didn't keep any homeschool records prior to high school.

I throw out my kids workbooks when we're done with them. 

I'm willing to jump through some hoops when funding is involved, but I'm not a fan of putting additional and unnecessary burdens on parents just because they are parents.

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

I didn't keep any homeschool records prior to high school.

I throw out my kids workbooks when we're done with them. 

I'm willing to jump through some hoops when funding is involved, but I'm not a fan of putting additional and unnecessary burdens on parents just because they are parents.

We're not even talking about school records, unless school activities are the only times your kids meet mandated reporters.

[maize]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

Compared to all the hoops one needs to jump through to be an adoptive parent, or to be the parent of a public-schooled child for that matter, this is a miniscule ask that could make an actual difference to kids at risk.

What exactly will make a difference to the kids at risk and how will it make a difference?

Be aware that the more burdensome meeting a government requirement is, the more trouble some people will go to in order to avoid that requirement. If it's only a little harder--or even easier!--to fly under the radar than to jump through hoops, might as well fly under the radar. Especially if you have something to hide! We all know there are families in places with homeschool registration and other requirements who actively hide their kids and avoid registration and reporting.

[maize]

The people who actually carry the full burden of whatever government requirements are put in place are the people who were already conscientious and never needed extra oversight in the first place.

[SKL]

I mean how many caring homeschoolers don't do any of the following for their kids:

• Doctor and dentist visits, health screenings, immunizations.
• Swim lessons.
• Social group / arts / sports / cultural / volunteer activities that are run by some organization or business - scouts, community rec, library, museum, whatever.
• Religious group activities - Sunday School, youth group, Hebrew school, etc.
• Testing, therapy, etc. for suspected or known concerns or to rule out same.
• Academic / enrichment camps or classes.
• Childcare when the parents have something to do without the kids.

[Heartstrings]

Who would we be reporting this all too? What would be the requirement, daily, weekly, monthly? Who is paying for this? Are we subsidizing low income families or are we putting an income requirement on homeschooling?  My older kids only social stuff is at the board game store, would they count as able to sign off on all this, or do we have to get new hobbies?  Does co-op count or no since it’s other homeschoolers? 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Heartstrings

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, maize said:

What exactly will make a difference to the kids at risk and how will it make a difference?

Be aware that the more burdensome meeting a government requirement is, the more trouble some people will go to in order to avoid that requirement. If it's only a little harder--or even easier!--to fly under the radar than to jump through hoops, might as well fly under the radar. Especially if you have something to hide! We all know there are families in places with homeschool registration and other requirements who actively hide their kids and avoid registration and reporting.

OK but if there is a small requirement that is intentionally ignored, then when someone reports these families for suspected neglect, there is something the authorities can write up and follow up on.  OK this family did was supposed to do ABC and chose to fly under the radar instead.  Must be a reason.  Let's look closer.

[goldberry]

I'll be honest, this is part of what scares me about voucher systems that give money to homeschool families without oversight.  It's another incentive added for families that aren't serious about teaching and homeschool for more nefarious reasons.

[Happy2BaMom]

So for those who don't believe that any additional government oversight is necessary (& I'm not saying it is)...what are the potential solutions to these situations (which do routinely crop up)?

Or do we just do nothing?

[Heartstrings]

32 minutes ago, SKL said:

OK but if there is a small requirement that is intentionally ignored, then when someone reports these families for suspected neglect, there is something the authorities can write up and follow up on.  OK this family did was supposed to do ABC and chose to fly under the radar instead.  Must be a reason.  Let's look closer.

It's super easy to get around this though.  Many of these long-term abuse cases involve a family that moves at least once. The family in the article moved from California to Michigan.  It's really easy to just not register oce you get to Michigan, or just to another part of the same state.  The child would then be on no one's radar to check in on them.  How would they know, unless someone reported them.  But why would anyone that knew about the child's existence think to report them to the school district, they would assume that the family was doing whatever the law required.  I've never asked to see proof of someone's NOI while we're out at the park, nor would I show mine to any random neighbor who asked. 

The child in the article was seeing family and the family attempted to report to CPS but was ignored.  No one can make CPS investigate anything.  All of the regulations in the world won't do bupkiss while CPS is understaffed and underfunded.  

Edited December 2, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Happy2BaMom]

7 minutes ago, goldberry said:

I'll be honest, this is part of what scares me about voucher systems that give money to homeschool families without oversight.  It's another incentive added for families that aren't serious about teaching and homeschool for more nefarious reasons.

Yes, public money with zero accountability is never a good idea.

[Shoeless]

The family in this article was reported to CPS. THEY WERE REPORTED. 

CPS didnt investigate. 

Now what? 

But hey, must have been that homeschooling that caused the problems!

 

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Happy2BaMom said:

So for those who don't believe that any additional government oversight is necessary (& I'm not saying it is)...what are the potential solutions to these situations (which do routinely crop up)?

Or do we just do nothing?

I don't think we can ever hope to catch every abuse case.  It's not possible.  Someone up thread mentioned that even having kids sit in school, in front of multiple mandated reporters 8 hours a day, 5 days a week doesn't keep some of those kids from being abused. How can any regulation on homeschoolers ever compete with that level of scrutiny?  It can't.

The only way to make any sort of difference in child abuse would require steps that would be far too draconian for anyone to really accept.  We could fund a program that visited every child in their homes regularly, with a database to track the movement of children through moves, and regular house-by-house sweeps across the country to find any kids that disappear from that database.   But no one would ever agree to that.  So we have to admit that there is some level of abuse we are willing to accept in exchange for privacy.   

But we won't even lock up abusers or fund CPS as it stands currently.  We are currently willing to accept a LOT of abuse in the name of lower taxes and fiscal responsibility.    Drugs play a large part in a lot of abuse cases, but treatment is hard to get.  Therapy for parents to deal with their own issues is out of reach financially for a lot of people.  There are a lot of things we could do to help with child abuse as a wider issue that we as a society choose not to do.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Heartstrings]

22 minutes ago, goldberry said:

I'll be honest, this is part of what scares me about voucher systems that give money to homeschool families without oversight.  It's another incentive added for families that aren't serious about teaching and homeschool for more nefarious reasons.

The voucher system in my state will require testing, at least. 

[Shoeless]

The woman in this article was a stepparent. How many children are abused by stepparents annually? If I had to guess, I'd bet the stats are much bigger for stepparent abuse than homeschool abuse.

Maybe we should make laws that require annual parenting classes for all blended families, to ensure step kids aren't being neglected and abused. We'd surely catch more abuse cases that way.

[Faith-manor]

19 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

It's super easy to get around this though.  Many of these long-term abuse cases involve a family that moves at least once. The family in the article moved from California to Michigan.  It's really easy to just not register the kid in Michigan.  The child would then be on no one's radar to check in on them.  How would they know, unless someone reported them.  But why would anyone that knew about the child's existence think to report them to the school district, they would assume that the family was doing whatever the law required.  I've never asked to see proof of someone's NOI while we're out at the park, nor would I show mine to any random neighbor who asked. 

The child in the article was seeing family and the family attempted to report to CPS but was ignored.  No one can make CPS investigate anything.  All of the regulations in the world won't do bupkiss while CPS is understaffed and underfunded.  

Exactly.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Clemsondana said:

First, how do we learn to discern where the real danger?  How do cases of abuse that are reported multiple times wind up unchecked, while somebody who gets drunk can wind up with a time-consuming year of twice-a-week follow up?  And, second, how do we figure out what policies will actually be beneficial?  I would have thought that mandated reporters would be a good idea.  I wouldn't have foreseen that, for people with experience with the system, they just quit asking for help for anything that they fear will get them in trouble.  For 'bad but not abusive' situations, that's not a good trade-off.  We don't want a tipsy person to make bad judgements in dealing with a sick kid because they are afraid to ask somebody for help.  I mean, ideally they wouldn't be tipsy when supervising kids, but still...  But, when somebody calls CPS and says that they see abuse, we want that checked.  Until our agencies can manage that, I don't see how putting more work on their plates by asking them to supervise homeschoolers would be beneficial, since it would draw resources away from the reported cases that are already being reported

So, there are multiple important factors, including the example of being afraid to ask for help.  
Mandated reporting also cause’s over reporting for people’s (understandable) fear of losing jobs and prosecution if they “miss” a sign.  
Reports get screened for worthiness. You can’t investigate without an address or names to find an address or “I think the lady down the street is a bad mom.” You have to investigate fighting exes making bogus claims if they state a specific abuse.  
You can’t (or aren’t supposed to) take kids who aren’t in immediate danger without overwhelming evidence. Overwhelming evidence can be hard to get. “Gut feelings”, while often correct, aren’t evidence. Some of the worst abusive parents are the best at hiding evidence.

And judges play a huge role.

It’s not cut and dry.

[goldberry]

Texas, as an example, has had some of the biggest problems in the country with its foster care/cps system for YEARS.  Yet, four special sessions for school vouchers! 😑 One of the things I hate most about the political environment right now is how essential and vital issues are just pushed aside.  CPS?  Foster systems?  Healthcare costs?  Healthcare in rural areas?  Nah....we want to fight over the latest and greatest cultural issues instead.  Oh, and Prosper School District is building a $94 million dollar high school football stadium, because if they don't, property values might go down!  I've literally given up hope.  Nobody cares.

[goldberry]

9 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

The voucher system in my state will require testing, at least. 

Oh that's hopeful, which state is that?

[Heartstrings]

Just now, goldberry said:

Oh that's hopeful, which state is that?

Arkansas.  Homeschoolers who take the money will need to test, whereas we don't have to test if we aren't taking the money.  It's also not just cash to the homeschooling parent as a "salary" it will be set up for approved purchases only, like how an FSA card only covers medical stuff.  It's not fully rolled out yet though so details are still being worked out, but it's definitely not going to just be cash handed over. 

[SKL]

Just because a measure won't fix everything doesn't mean it won't help.  That's an irrational line of argument IMO.

Of course I agree CPS etc. need tons more meaningful attention, well-managed funding, etc.

Of course this is an incredibly complex issues.  But the fact remains that kids benefit from having eyes on them outside of their immediate family.  It's not enough, but it should be a piece of the puzzle.

[Heartstrings]

17 minutes ago, SKL said:

ust because a measure won't fix everything doesn't mean it won't help.

But putting up regulations just for the sake of doing so won't help either.  There is no real reason to think that having homeschoolers get their socializing and doctor visits approved would prevent any abuse at all.  There is some proof of concept that is needed before we all start advocating for costly measures and more state intervention and oversight. It might sound like a good idea but we don't actually know if it would help.  It could just be security theater. 

I'd actually like it if this was required if we could anonymize the data for research.  It would end the socialization argument forever.  I'd love to have researchers mine that data.  How many homeschoolers, do co-ops or play sports? How many volunteer?  

Edited December 3, 2023 by Heartstrings

[maize]

1 hour ago, goldberry said:

I'll be honest, this is part of what scares me about voucher systems that give money to homeschool families without oversight.  It's another incentive added for families that aren't serious about teaching and homeschool for more nefarious reasons.

What programs are giving out vouchers with zero oversight?

I have never heard of such a program.

[frogger]

1 hour ago, Happy2BaMom said:

So for those who don't believe that any additional government oversight is necessary (& I'm not saying it is)...what are the potential solutions to these situations (which do routinely crop up)?

Or do we just do nothing?

Personally, I just don't think it is a solution.

I have seen abused kids in charter programs with more onerous requirements than any mentioned here. Teachers get clues and that's it. Some miss them; some report them and not a damn thing is done.

The number one thing you can do to mitigate child abuse in this country is overhaul and properly fund CPS. Period.

Most of us complaining about funding more pointless layers want that done. 

If that were done and kids reported on were actually taken care of then we could talk about adding more layers and spreading funds thinner and adding more levels of bureaucracy. As it is, kids who ARE reported on are being left in horrible situations.

 

ETA- I have taken abused children into my home in the past. They were in a charter school for years previously and the school did not get the investigation started. I have also watched the state force an abused mother send children back to an abuser with barely speaking to the mother. There is just so little time to investigate. I try to share as little as possible as these aren't my stories to share despite my involvement and I am hesitant to even say this much.

Similar stories to the aforementioned, of children being killed AFTER reports to OCS have occured in other places. It isn't an easy job and proof is essential for a variety of reasons but more effort to dig into cases is the best we can do. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by frogger

[Shoeless]

People that want to abuse kids will find a way to do it, regardless of school. It will happened regardless of church attendance, doctor visits, swim lessons, band camp, or enrichment classes. 

We need mental health care in this country. We need CPS and social services to be adequately staffed and funded. There are already laws and organizations that handle allegations of neglect and abuse; we don't staff and fund them. 

You can take those same abused homeschool kids and send them to public school, and guess what? They're still going to be abused. The parents just get creative about hiding it. 

[Dmmetler]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

It's not as if you don't already need to do record-keeping for every child.

The "too much record-keeping" argument just sounds to me like digging in.

For people who don't know, a little research will reveal that there are many types of individuals who are mandatory reporters.  Outside of school, my kids have always had tons of interaction with them, and this is easy to prove.  Just like there are numerous ways to prove your residency for a driver's license, it should not be that hard to gather up documents and bring them to someone, whether that be a school employee, health professional, government office, or someone else.  Certain types of documents (those not easily falsified) could be submitted online.  People who won't do this much can, instead, be monitored more closely.

This is one reason why I support funding rec programs. It would be very easy for parks and rec to send a roster of all children under 18 who are participating in any rec activity through them, whether it's my music class, dance, rec sports, etc. We already do askmfor "school attended" on the form, although homeschoolers can be listed in different ways (I've had several who listed curricula as the "school"), we probably could report everyone NOT enrolled in the public schools or the couple of closest privates and come pretty close for those over age 6. What's more, we already have that information and need to report usage data by lots of measures to justify our line items in the budget. 

 

 Offer more things homeschoolers want to do there that can be done affordably and you'll get a higher percentage of the homeschoolers. Heck, just offer cheap or free SPACE for co-ops, support group events, and the like with the requirement being pre-registering your kids, and you'd probably get a lot. And we're already a public agency that is reporting a ton of stuff. 

 

I believe the library requires pre-registration for most of their programming, too, and, again is already a public agency, And I'm guessing they report a lot of stuff for the same reasons. 

[EKS]

2 hours ago, Shoeless said:

The family in this article was reported to CPS. THEY WERE REPORTED. 

CPS didnt investigate. 

Now what? 

But hey, must have been that homeschooling that caused the problems!

Exactly!

[BakersDozen]

I've not read all the responses, but if 17 children of school age were victims in the original report, and 8 were homeschooled, that means an equal number (plus one) were not homeschooled. So why the focus on homeschooling and not child abuse overall? If 14 of the 17 or even 12 were homeschooled, that would be significant. But to me the number shows that homeschooled or not, children are abused, and the environment in which they are educated isn't necessarily a factor.

[BakersDozen]

2 hours ago, maize said:

What programs are giving out vouchers with zero oversight?

I have never heard of such a program.

Arizona's ESA program is basically such a program. Proponents will state that there is accountability, but beyond submitting receipts and curriculum (which is a joke - my kids would write what is considered acceptable as curriculum), there is no accountability as to how purchases are actually being used, whom is being hired to teach/"teach." Anyone with a high school diploma can be hired using ESA funds to teach kids. Pods and microschools, learning centers and such are popping up everywhere and there is absolutely nothing in place as far as oversight whether academically or professionally. Drop-off programs are all the rage now compared to the homeschool co-ops which often required parental presence or participation.

 

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Our stupid county commissioners

Sounds like you could run for county commissioner. 🙂

Edited December 3, 2023 by PeterPan

[SKL]

41 minutes ago, BakersDozen said:

I've not read all the responses, but if 17 children of school age were victims in the original report, and 8 were homeschooled, that means an equal number (plus one) were not homeschooled. So why the focus on homeschooling and not child abuse overall? If 14 of the 17 or even 12 were homeschooled, that would be significant. But to me the number shows that homeschooled or not, children are abused, and the environment in which they are educated isn't necessarily a factor.

If nearly 50% of the severely abused kids were "homeschooled," that is very disproportionate to the % of kids overall who are homeschooled.  It's at least 10x the number of kids you'd expect to have been "homeschooled" in a random group of 17 kids.

Those kids were not homeschooled, they were hidden under the guise of "homeschooling."

[GoVanGogh]

12 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Pretending like public school is a savior also does nothing to protect 0-5 year olds, but we’re somehow uncomfortable with mandating under 5s be taken away from parents and required to be “protected” by a system.  If homeschool parents are suspect, shouldn’t all stay at home parents be?     It’s an interesting thought experiment.  There are no testing or notification requirements for 2 year olds, or 6 week olds to protect them from abuse.  

Exactly. 

Years ago, when I was a journalist, I had to cover a symposium related to preventing child abuse. This was 30+ years ago but the statistic then was that the majority of child abuse happened due to colic and potty training and that educating new parents on expectations and solutions/assistance to both of those issues led to a reduction in abuse. When we started homeschooling nearly 20 years ago, a school teacher relative protested, telling us that homeschooling was just a cover for abuse. I researched statistics at that point and found that the majority of abuse occurred around 2-3 years of age. Around that same time, we had a local case where a 2 year old boy was abused/killed because he soiled his pants. At two! We didn’t even attempt to potty train our boy at 2 because he wasn’t verbal enough to tell us when he needed to go. 
 

I have been reading the Post’s articles on homeschooling and while I generally love the Post, their coverage of homeschooling has been horrible. In fact, this article (which I read not ten minutes before coming here) had a statistic that research from one state showed that 8 of the 17 cases of abuse were homeschool families. That isn’t even half of the cases! Yet! How awful! Eight out of the 17! I am not making light of the 8 cases. But that statistic doesn’t prove what they think it does. Considering homeschooling and private schools are overall a very small percentage of the total amount of children in education systems around the states, that means that 9 of those cases were children (most likely) IN the public school system - or not yet school age. Yet, as quoted above, we don’t talk about safety nets for children from birth to kindergarten age. 

[SKL]

Not sure how one proves that kids have benefited (let alone "will benefit") from having been seen by mandated reporters.  I mean, there are kids who aren't statistics because of that safety net.  Not just because mandated reporters report, but because parents know they will be reported if they punch their kid's face and send him to school (or if their kid is truant due to being kept home for the wrong reasons).

The fact that some kids are still abused does not prove that no kids have been protected.

[SKL]

But yeah, I'd like to know how some people think child abuse can be prevented.  If we could figure that out, wouldn't society be amazing!  How do we figure out who's likely to beat their kids before it happens?  How do we find out who's done it asap after it happens?  How do we get those people to be open to education about reasonable parenting?

Another thing that struck me was how many siblings know this stuff is happening and don't report.  Why isn't there outreach to them?  Why isn't TikTok etc. showing ads that tell kids to report if they have a friend or relative who is being abused, or provide links for them to report that they or others are being abused?  Why aren't kids being educated at school, church, etc. about what abuse looks like and how to report it?  I mean I'm sure lots of kids would use that to complain every time their folks pissed them off, but overreporting has never been an excuse to block reporting, has it?