“Protest behavior”

[heartlikealion]

If you have read Attached, this topic comes up. It’s one I’m grappling with these days. 

My understanding is that instead of being direct, you go the passive-aggressive route. (That would be protest behavior but they want us to avoid it)

It’s really hard because I think we look more vulnerable being direct. “Hey, it upset me you didn’t text the last few days” vs I just won’t text this person for a few days. 

How do you feel about the advice to avoid protest behavior? Are you actively practicing ways to avoid it? 

Do you think the notion is kinda crappy because some people maybe “need a taste of their medicine”? 

what are your thoughts? 
 

Sometimes I worry that being open just makes me look weak. Ugh 

Edited November 21, 2023 by heartlikealion
Clarity

[scholastica]

There’s a difference between weak and vulnerable.  Being honest that the other person hurt you leaves you open to them hurting you again in the same way. The word vulnerable means “able to be wounded”. It actually takes strength, and it builds intimacy within healthy relationships. The other way, no-one ever knows where they stand with each other and the relationship is not built on honesty and openness. The people are always having to guess what is going on and the stories we tell ourselves about what someone else is thinking are rarely accurate. 

[heartlikealion]

1 minute ago, scholastica said:

There’s a difference between weak and vulnerable.  Being honest that the other person hurt you leaves you open to them hurting you again in the same way. The word vulnerable means “able to be wounded”. It actually takes strength, and it builds intimacy within healthy relationships. The other way, no-one ever knows where they stand with each other and the relationship is not built on honesty and openness. The people are always having to guess what is going on and the stories we tell ourselves about what someone else is thinking are rarely accurate. 

So would you say don’t tell them or tell them hoping they will not repeat the behavior? 

[scholastica]

 

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

So would you say don’t tell them or tell them hoping they will not repeat the behavior? 

I would say “I feel confused when you don’t text for a few days. If you’re going to be busy and you know that, or if you need a break from talking to me, could you please let me know that?” 
 

[fairfarmhand]

It depends.

Some people, you are not going to be able to be open with because of past behaviors.

But if you are working on building a healthy relationship, telling the person what you're feeling and how their behaviors affect you is part of intimacy. And yes, you are right it IS risky. But I don't think it's weakness per se. It is allowing another person into your heart so they can see how you tick. And that's the only way to have closeness. We could put it this way: If you are strong enough to allow someone to see your vulnerable spots, yes they could hurt you. But you will be strong enough to handle it if that comes. 

People who need a taste of their own medicine to figure out stuff are often a little immature and need to learn how to interact in healthier ways. Ideally, we should all be thinking "I care about this person, so I will not behave that way, even if it seems silly to me for them to be hurt by it."

[thatfirstsip]

Being vulnerable (or rather, acknowledging your vulnerability) is a display of strength, if the people you're being vulnerable with aren't abusive.

So with my friend whom I trust, being open and vulnerable says "I trust my position in this relationship and my own value enough to risk your potentially negative response to my vulnerability." With a relative I don't trust, being vulnerable is unhelpful - the mask protects both of us, because I know they'll use it to hurt me instead of hear me every time.

I don't ever think people "need a taste of their medicine." If they're treating me or someone I love badly, I feel no inclination to treat them badly in response to teach them anything or to have revenge - I just disengage. If a relationship has devolved into power plays, it's not good for me to continue that dynamic (and it's not a dynamic that interests me).

[Heartstrings]

10 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

“Hey, it upset me you didn’t text the last few days” vs I just won’t text this person for a few days.

It’s hard to be direct, for sure.   But you really have to ask what your desired outcome is.  If you just don’t text them are you:

-deciding to end things and just ghosting them and hoping they just move on with no uncomfortable conversations?

-hoping they’ll notice, feel guilty and apologize?

-punishing them for not texting you?

-setting up a relationship where they think your ok with no contact for days and they are ok with that too so to them everything is good?   Then it’s confusing to them when you bring it up because they thought things were good?

some other option? 

If you are intending to send a particular message and this person receives it a different its likely to cause problems.

Another consideration is, is this how you want them to respond to you?

Actually, if you have a relationship built on this style of communication, how can be sure them not texting you for a few days wasn’t a passive aggressive message to you from them, and how can you sure you are getting the intended message correctly and aren’t misinterpreting their indirect message? That sounds exhausting.  

 

[heartlikealion]

2 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said:

Being vulnerable (or rather, acknowledging your vulnerability) is a display of strength, if the people you're being vulnerable with aren't abusive.

So with my friend whom I trust, being open and vulnerable says "I trust my position in this relationship and my own value enough to risk your potentially negative response to my vulnerability." With a relative I don't trust, being vulnerable is unhelpful - the mask protects both of us, because I know they'll use it to hurt me instead of hear me every time.

I don't ever think people "need a taste of their medicine." If they're treating me or someone I love badly, I feel no inclination to treat them badly in response to teach them anything or to have revenge - I just disengage. If a relationship has devolved into power plays, it's not good for me to continue that dynamic (and it's not a dynamic that interests me).

Sometimes I think it’s totally lost on people that their actions caused us to disengage. They are oblivious and could assume we haven’t spoken lately for any number of reasons. This may not help with the relationship, if growth is desirable that is. 

[Katy]

I don’t think saying “It hurt me that you…” is as vulnerable as, “My feelings were hurt when you…” Because one places blame on the other, and the other expresses feelings more than fault. It’s subtle but I think there’s a difference. 
 

And yeah, being vulnerable is strong and trusting simultaneously. 

[fairfarmhand]

So there are two outcomes.

"MY feelings were hurt when you didn't text me."

"Seriously? Why are you so needy? It was JUST a few days."

In this case, if you want to you help them grow. You say "If we care about each other, we need to be open to the ways that we inadvertently hurt one another so we can avoid those things." If the person is receptive to this, you know they are open to growth in learning to relate in a healthy way.

 

Or they could knock your socks off and go "Oh, geez. I'm sorry about that. I got busy and the time got away from me. Let's talk about our expectations for each other."

[thatfirstsip]

I only disengage if I don't want to develop the relationship further with the person. I don't care how they interpret the disengagement, I just want to reduce contact.

If I want the relationship to develop, it means I have enough basic trust to be vulnerable; as a rule in these situations I'm super vulnerable and open. It saves time, if it's a relationship I value.

[bolt.]

I'm not sure if I'm passive-aggressive or not -- but I often respond to hurtful behaviour from others with boundaries, distance, or new ways of thinking about the relationship. I don't really feel a need to tell them my decisions and reasoning, unless they notice and ask. (And if they do notice and ask, sometimes I lie.) My primary motive in making changes like that would be to help myself cope: hopefully without attracting any attention or pressing any demands on the other party. I just make myself need/want less. Then I can move past the hurt and be satisfied in the relationship again.

[thatfirstsip]

To be clear: NONE of this applies to a relationship with a kid. That's a whole different thing.

[Heartstrings]

56 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Do you think the notion is kinda crappy because some people maybe “need a taste of their medicine”? 

I think this a weird concept for adults.  It’s feels childish.  Once you have decided that a person NEEDS to be “punished” and you are the person to do it, how do you come back from that?  If my friends want to punish me we are no longer friends.   Being “punished” isn’t going to make me want a relationship with the punisher.  That’s backward thinking.   That’s more akin to some version of Stockholm Syndrome, if being punished brings about a closer relationship.  (Unless your into that sort of think, not k!Nk shaming but I’m not talking about that lifestyle just regular relationships).   
 

Would it be ok for someone you’re in any sort of a relationship with to punish you for perceived slights? 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Heartstrings

[heartlikealion]

9 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think this a weird concept for adults.  It’s feels childish.  Once you have decided that a person NEEDS to be “punished” and you are the person to do it, how do you come back from that?  If my friends want to punish me we are no longer friends.   Being “punished” isn’t going to make me want a relationship with the punisher.  That’s backward thinking.   That’s more akin to some version of Stockholm Syndrome, if being punished brings about a closer relationship.  (Unless your into that sort of think, not k!Nk shaming but I’m not talking about that lifestyle just regular relationships).   
 

Would it be ok for someone you’re in any sort of a relationship with to punish you for perceived slights? 

ok let’s say in an office a person wants you to buy a fundraiser item but this person never buys your fundraiser items. People do this behavior all the time. It’s just… unspoken? Well I would have bought Susie’s gift wrap but she never buys the GS cookies. Not saying this is right or wrong, but these interactions happen. 

[thatfirstsip]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

ok let’s say in an office a person wants you to buy a fundraiser item but this person never buys your fundraiser items. People do this behavior all the time. It’s just… unspoken? Well I would have bought Susie’s gift wrap but she never buys the GS cookies. Not saying this is right or wrong, but these interactions happen. 

I just don't buy their fundraiser unless I want the thing. Whether they buy someone else's fundraiser is irrelevant to me.

[heartlikealion]

28 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I'm not sure if I'm passive-aggressive or not -- but I often respond to hurtful behaviour from others with boundaries, distance, or new ways of thinking about the relationship. I don't really feel a need to tell them my decisions and reasoning, unless they notice and ask. (And if they do notice and ask, sometimes I lie.) My primary motive in making changes like that would be to help myself cope: hopefully without attracting any attention or pressing any demands on the other party. I just make myself need/want less. Then I can move past the hurt and be satisfied in the relationship again.

That’s very dangerous. Now you may describe anxious attachment here… we’re scared to be left so we push down our own needs/wants. It’s scary to say we need or want more than the person seems able/willing to provide because that means what, we part ways? We’re openly dissatisfied? We’re scared we look needy? Etc. 

I don’t think you (or me) really need/want less. We just start accepting less. I have accepted breadcrumbs for years. I’m trying not to do that anymore. It’s hard! At least in romantic relationships I rarely see what I need and it’s very disheartening. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I find it difficult to talk about this topic in isolation of context with re: to relationships with adults. Sometimes when I engage with someone with an anxious attachment type of relationship, I find it hard to gently set a boundary. I have had new friends who have texted constantly (and that can mean a few times a day in a new friendship) and wasn’t getting the social cue that that was too much. Mentioning it directly would have caused a blowup, so it was easier to just let time slide before I responded, but even that wasn’t enough. 
 

When I was single, I found people who demanded a lot in the first few months to be red flags. It was like there was no ground for them between “hey, I like you” and “we’re now in a serious relationship”. I found the demands for attention to be controlling. 
 

OTOH, if my bestie of a few years were to not respond to a semi urgent text, I would find that upsetting. And, I’d be direct about it, because I value our friendship, but I would also be open to hearing their side of things. 

[heartlikealion]

38 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

So there are two outcomes.

"MY feelings were hurt when you didn't text me."

"Seriously? Why are you so needy? It was JUST a few days."

In this case, if you want to you help them grow. You say "If we care about each other, we need to be open to the ways that we inadvertently hurt one another so we can avoid those things." If the person is receptive to this, you know they are open to growth in learning to relate in a healthy way.

 

Or they could knock your socks off and go "Oh, geez. I'm sorry about that. I got busy and the time got away from me. Let's talk about our expectations for each other."

I see a common third one which is excuses and you sometimes never find out the truth 

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

ok let’s say in an office a person wants you to buy a fundraiser item but this person never buys your fundraiser items. People do this behavior all the time. It’s just… unspoken? Well I would have bought Susie’s gift wrap but she never buys the GS cookies. Not saying this is right or wrong, but these interactions happen. 

I don’t see that as a punishments punishment or as passive aggressive, especially in a more casual relationship like a co-worker.  I don’t know why they don’t buy from my fundraiser and I’m not close enough to them  to ask.  I would just not buy and not feel like it needed a discussion.   If it’s my best friend and it’s an issue I feel bothered by I would say something, or I’d be in a position to know why they don’t buy from my fundraiser and not need to.  
 

Generally though I don’t think passive aggressiveness leads anywhere but frustration on all parts.  
 

 

[heartlikealion]

4 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I find it difficult to talk about this topic in isolation of context with re: to relationships with adults. Sometimes when I engage with someone with an anxious attachment type of relationship, I find it hard to gently set a boundary. I have had new friends who have texted constantly (and that can mean a few times a day in a new friendship) and wasn’t getting the social cue that that was too much. Mentioning it directly would have caused a blowup, so it was easier to just let time slide before I responded, but even that wasn’t enough. 
 

When I was single, I found people who demanded a lot in the first few months to be red flags. It was like there was no ground for them between “hey, I like you” and “we’re now in a serious relationship”. I found the demands for attention to be controlling. 
 

OTOH, if my bestie of a few years were to not respond to a semi urgent text, I would find that upsetting. And, I’d be direct about it, because I value our friendship, but I would also be open to hearing their side of things. 

I think it’s amusing that all the relationship stuff I read/watch says that texting more in the early stages is less ok and later in the relationship more standard. I feel the opposite!! I’m excited to get to know you and see you… but after a couple months I’m more likely to know your routine better and casually set up plans to see each other this night or that. And married?? We hardly texted! It was mostly “can you pick up ____ from the grocery store” type texts. 

Yes some of my texting is based on their responses (what they say, how often). 

[Kanin]

Because I'm a direct communicator, I wonder if I just don't notice passive-aggressive behavior. Like, if someone didn't text me for a few days, I'd assume they were busy and/or forgot to text back. It probably wouldn't occur to me that they were upset. 

I'd like to think that with a romantic partner, I'd be able to say, Hey, if you don't text me at least once a day, I'll be sad and worried! My DH knows that when we're apart on work trips and whatnot, that we absolutely have to talk or text at least once a day.

 

[heartlikealion]

Just now, Kanin said:

Because I'm a direct communicator, I wonder if I just don't notice passive-aggressive behavior. Like, if someone didn't text me for a few days, I'd assume they were busy and/or forgot to text back. It probably wouldn't occur to me that they were upset. 

I'd like to think that with a romantic partner, I'd be able to say, Hey, if you don't text me at least once a day, I'll be sad and worried! My DH knows that when we're apart on work trips and whatnot, that we absolutely have to talk or text at least once a day.

 

I was mostly referring to a romantic interest. But our relationship is all messed up now. Went from bf/gf back to friends… so I expected to not really have much interaction but then they said they definitely wanted to do this and that and if I need help moving they might be able to help. Like stop with the mixed signals. If you want loose don’t future fake or whatever. 

[Heartstrings]

11 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I have accepted breadcrumbs for years. I’m trying not to do that anymore. It’s hard!

The best way to not receive breadcrumbs is to ask for what you want, and break things off with people who aren’t inclined to give it to you. If a man offers breadcrumbs you can no thank you.  If you think he’d be willing to give more, you can ask.  You don’t have to just accept what is offered.  
Taking the breadcrumbs while hoping he’ll notice you weren’t happy with that  and that’ll he’ll just guess on his own what you would like is really a recipe for a bad relationship.  Which is how just not texting him after he didn’t text you feels to me.

 

By not asking, you can’t know if he’s thinking “great, she was happy with my offering! This is awesome.”  

[Rosie_0801]

15 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

That’s very dangerous. Now you may describe anxious attachment here… we’re scared to be left so we push down our own needs/wants. It’s scary to say we need or want more than the person seems able/willing to provide because that means what, we part ways? We’re openly dissatisfied? We’re scared we look needy? Etc. 

I don’t think you (or me) really need/want less. We just start accepting less. I have accepted breadcrumbs for years. I’m trying not to do that anymore. It’s hard! At least in romantic relationships I rarely see what I need and it’s very disheartening. 

Suppressing our own needs or wants is not always about fear. 

Maybe read this article, if you don't mind the swearing.

As to the bolded, you should not compare a marriage to a new relationship. The level of entitlement to access is entirely different.

New relationships are transitions and transitions are hard. You gotta work with where you are now, not with the potential that may not happen. Unhappy as it is, no man owes you what you need at this point of your life. Your needs are too great for a new relationship. Yes, it is lonely. I've been single for eleven years and would be surprised if I ever dated again. All I have to offer is a good character and that isn't enough!

[heartlikealion]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

The best way to not receive breadcrumbs is to ask for what you want, and break things off with people who aren’t inclined to give it to you. If a man offers breadcrumbs you can no thank you.  If you think he’d be willing to give more, you can ask.  You don’t have to just accept what is offered.  
Taking the breadcrumbs while hoping he’ll notice you weren’t happy with that  and that’ll he’ll just guess on his own what you would like is really a recipe for a bad relationship.  Which is how just not texting him after he didn’t text you feels to me.

By not asking, you can’t know if he’s thinking “great, she was happy with my offering! This is awesome.”  

It wasn’t intentional breadcrumbs and I did express myself. It was just constant obstacles that infringed on most quality time. And then of course me asking if I was too demanding of someone’s time so early in a relationship. So a lot of mental gymnastics. 

The truth is even if something is “standard” if it makes you feel unsatisfied, maybe it’s not right for you. Like maybe it’s standard to see a new bf once a week but you want to see someone twice. 

It’s really hard to find someone on the same page, or so it seems. 

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, heartlikealion said:

It’s really hard to find someone on the same page, or so it seems. 

Isn't that the truth...

[heartlikealion]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Suppressing our own needs or wants is not always about fear. 

Maybe read this article, if you don't mind the swearing.

As to the bolded, you should not compare a marriage to a new relationship. The level of entitlement to access is entirely different.

New relationships are transitions and transitions are hard. You gotta work with where you are now, not with the potential that may not happen. Unhappy as it is, no man owes you what you need at this point of your life. Your needs are too great for a new relationship. Yes, it is lonely. I've been single for eleven years and would be surprised if I ever dated again. All I have to offer is a good character and that isn't enough!

☹️

[heartlikealion]

16 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Isn't that the truth...

I felt an F yeah on both ends but without full knowledge of the obstacles. And I was ok filing this relationship in the “maybe down the line” category… but now doubt that’s the case, either. 

Ds told me advice he heard. “Dating is like a fart. If you have to force it, it’s probably 💩” lol 

[Heartstrings]

28 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

The truth is even if something is “standard” if it makes you feel unsatisfied, maybe it’s not right for you. Like maybe it’s standard to see a new bf once a week but you want to see someone twice.

This is very true.  You have to find someone you’re well matched with from the beginning.  I wouldn’t be ok with texts every few days, when I started dating my husband we both enjoyed texting multiple times a day.  It would have been excessive for most people, but was perfect for us. From day one we talked and text constantly.  There was never a day without a ton of communication.

 It’s only a problem if it doesn’t work for both people.  The constant texter just shouldn’t date the every few days texter, it’s not a good match.   You shouldn’t try to fit a square peg into a round hole.  
 

I don’t really think Standard exists, every couple is different.  

Edited November 21, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe if we're afraid of looking weak in front of someone, it is either the wrong time or the wrong person.

I don't know. That's just a thing I thought right now.

[heartlikealion]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

This is very true.  You have to find someone you’re well matched with from the beginning.  I wouldn’t be ok with texts every few days, when I started dating my husband we both enjoyed texting multiple times a day.  It would have been excessive for most people, but was perfect for us.  It’s only a problem if it doesn’t work for both people.  The constant texter just shouldn’t date the every few days texter, it’s not a good match.   You shouldn’t try to fit a square peg into a round hole.  
 

I don’t really think Standard exists, every couple is different.  

In my dating experience post marriage it can be regular texting that drops off. And for someone like me, it’s very jarring. I’ll have to talk about consistency and how those things don’t work for me (early on). 

[marbel]

35 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Maybe read this article, if you don't mind the swearing.

That article is great! I could have saved myself a lot of trouble, heartache, and over-analyzing if I had had that article to read when my first marriage broke up and I tried to start dating and finding a new partner. As it was I was mostly alone for 12 years till I met Mr F Yes. 

But during those 12 years I built a life of my own and by probably year 8 I was figuring I'd never have a satisfying relationship again and oh well, I had a decent life anyway. giving up and living my life alone was the best thing I could have done for myself.

Edited November 21, 2023 by marbel

[maize]

I don't think I have ever seen anyone learn or change in any positive way from being given a taste of their own medicine. It's an attempt at manipulation at best and entirely ineffective as a method of improving a relationship overall.

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, maize said:

I don't think I have ever seen anyone learn or change in any positive way from being given a taste of their own medicine. It's an attempt at manipulation at best and entirely ineffective as a method of improving a relationship overall.

Or it's just mirroring. 
But I think that is different.

[heartlikealion]

Yeah, mirroring is discussed in some dating videos I’ve seen. The guy speaking said mirroring can be appropriate sometimes but if it’s early on, you need to do modeling to show what kind of interactions you would like. You both just refuse to text then no one talks. You might have to reach out first. After modeling has been covered then mirroring seems more appropriate. 

But this guy also says avoid protest behavior so I guess he sees them differently? 

[Rosie_0801]

9 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Yeah, mirroring is discussed in some dating videos I’ve seen. The guy speaking said mirroring can be appropriate sometimes but if it’s early on, you need to do modeling to show what kind of interactions you would like. You both just refuse to text then no one talks. You might have to reach out first. After modeling has been covered then mirroring seems more appropriate. 

But this guy also says avoid protest behavior so I guess he sees them differently? 

That's not how I think of mirroring, though I guess the behaviour is the same. To me, it's a low level f-yes agreement. 

[Heartstrings]

I think if you’re wanting someone who is crazy about you, you should look for that.   Don’t settle for this guy who is only kind of interested.  Wait for the guy who wants to text you and can’t stop thinking about you.   

Edited November 21, 2023 by Heartstrings

[heartlikealion]

5 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think if you’re wanting someone who is crazy about you, you should look for that.   Don’t settle for this guy who is only kind of interested.  Wait for the guy who wants to text you and can’t stop thinking about you.   

That’s what I had for a couple weeks… called or texted me on a day even if he’s at work. Made plans to see me twice in one day. Asked me to be exclusive (not me asking). Over promising then retracting plans based on whatever hiccup there was. I don’t think there was real malice but things always get complicated. 

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Sometimes I think it’s totally lost on people that their actions caused us to disengage. They are oblivious and could assume we haven’t spoken lately for any number of reasons. This may not help with the relationship, if growth is desirable that is. 

Yes. I remember clearly how upset I was when my mum said that the kids and I couldn't stay with her when we visited from Asia. The reason she gave was that she would have to tidy up to prepare space and that would make her miserable.

I didn't call for a few weeks  - not to punish her but just because I didn't want to talk. When I did call, she said, 'Oh, you've re-emerged.' I'm convinced that the cause and effect were lost on her.

[heartlikealion]

3 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Yes. I remember clearly how upset I was when my mum said that the kids and I couldn't stay with her when we visited from Asia. The reason she gave was that she would have to tidy up to prepare space and that would make her miserable.

I didn't call for a few weeks  - not to punish her but just because I didn't want to talk. When I did call, she said, 'Oh, you've re-emerged.' I'm convinced that the cause and effect were lost on her.

Yeah, exactly 😕

[Ginevra]

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

ok let’s say in an office a person wants you to buy a fundraiser item but this person never buys your fundraiser items. People do this behavior all the time. It’s just… unspoken? Well I would have bought Susie’s gift wrap but she never buys the GS cookies. Not saying this is right or wrong, but these interactions happen. 

For myself, I am direct about these things one time and then it’s basically satisfied forever. However, I rarely begged for fundraiser things myself because I wanted to reject with impunity. 
 

In general, I think it’s better to be direct thank passive, but I also think it’s best to not be needy or look to others to do certain things for your happiness. 
 

Like Bolt said, though, I may simply re-evaluate the friendship/relationship and lower my expectations. 

[bolt.]

3 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

That’s very dangerous. Now you may describe anxious attachment here… we’re scared to be left so we push down our own needs/wants. It’s scary to say we need or want more than the person seems able/willing to provide because that means what, we part ways? We’re openly dissatisfied? We’re scared we look needy? Etc. 

I don’t think you (or me) really need/want less. We just start accepting less. I have accepted breadcrumbs for years. I’m trying not to do that anymore. It’s hard! At least in romantic relationships I rarely see what I need and it’s very disheartening. 

Well, I think "very dangerous" is a serious overstatement, or probably representative of a misunderstanding of what people mean by 'relationships'.

If my supervisor doesn't reply to emails until weeks after the fact. Okay, then. I stop needing, wanting, or expecting prompt communication from someone who is not a prompt communicator. I phone them if I need a quick turn around, otherwise I give them lots of lead time. No one has been harmed.

We just had a thread for my sake about how it's unlikely that my spouse will even change his behaviour and urgency about washing dishes. So I decided aluminum pans are going to have a greater role in my kitchen life. (BTW, thanks for that, everybody.)

I really *do* know how to need/want less from folks. Accepting the imperfections of my life is a tough slog at various moments, but overall, I think I like the results. Decreasing interdependence and increasing independent isn't the warmest or most vulnerable step to take in a relationship, but it's one I only take if I am experiencing pain. It's definitely not coming from a 'scared to be left' place. It usually comes from a perspective of wanting to get the most *that is actually available* out of all of my relationships, without feeling beat-up in the process.

I can see now that you are talking primarily about romantic partners during the maybe-maybe-not phase of things. I have very little (and *very* juvenile) experience of romance at the dating stage, and I wouldn't have really contributed if I knew that was the main topic. I thought we were talking about ourselves as centres of dozens of relationships with people who matter to us.

(If I was giving dating advice, I'd definitely say to hold out for high standards, ask for what you want, and look hard for someone who 'naturally' (without much prompting) has a relationship style and life circumstances that suits your needs. And be ready to walk away. People rarely have permanent whole-life-and-personality makeovers in response to a simple conversation. No matter how much someone likes you, they will usually be approximately as capable of doing things in the future as they are currently demonstrating in the present. It's not that "people don't change" -- it's just that deep change is usually pretty gradual or requires professional help/guidance.)

Edited November 21, 2023 by bolt.

[heartlikealion]

Comments about non romantic relationships are also welcome. But I see how responses will differ. There’s a different dynamic. 

I agree with the boss thing. The dishes — I would still deal with resentment so for me it’s not a full solution but it might feel like my only choice. 

I do think that men vs women affect a communication style as well — stereotypically, the men may be less prone to text for the sake of conversation. They may prefer to text more so to confirm information. 

For me personally, it’s hard for me to believe someone wants to see me in the near future if the communication drops. So then I think ok they lost interest. That may not necessarily be accurate but that’s how it feels. 

[bolt.]

2 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

For me personally, it’s hard for me to believe someone wants to see me in the near future if the communication drops. So then I think ok they lost interest. That may not necessarily be accurate but that’s how it feels. 

Or it might be completely accurate, and it makes you unhappy enough to hope that it's not accurate.

I suggest you check the track record of the person you are thinking of.

Either the two factors that feel correlated to you are actually correlated in real life, or they are not.

So: in the past, when communication drops from this person, did you find that they did or did not continue to want to see you with the same level of enthusiasm? Did you find that their enthusiasm, pro-active planning, happiness of seeing you, frequency of meeting, etc, was generally going up and down in tandem with the level of communication?

(Or is this the first communication reduction? If so, just hold off on assessing it as 'more than' reduced communication/attention, and wait to see if it is also a reduction in enthusiasm, etc, as you are inclined to interpret it.)

[fraidycat]

29 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

 

I do think that men vs women affect a communication style as well — stereotypically, the men may be less prone to text for the sake of conversation. They may prefer to text more so to confirm information. 

 

Yes, they could just hate text as a form of communication and really only have the energy to devote to it in short doses of a week or two before they remember how much they hate it.

I personally hate text for conversations, they feel so disjointed.

 

[Ginevra]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

No matter how much someone likes you, they will usually be approximately as capable of doing things in the future as they are currently demonstrating in the present. It's not that "people don't change" -- it's just that deep change is usually pretty gradual or requires professional help/guidance.)

100%. 

I think it’s mostly a waste of breath to tell other people how you “need” them to behave/respond. Find someone who mostly behaves the way that jibes with yourself. Let go of the rest. 

[Clarita]

4 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Ds told me advice he heard. “Dating is like a fart. If you have to force it, it’s probably 💩” lol 

I'm of the opinion no adult and person really including children ever really need a "taste of their own medicine". The consequence of me having certain feelings because of what they did, yes. Me doing something in revenge for their behavior no.

What DS said is great advice. It may not mean he is a bad person (or you are a bad person) just that you aren't on the same wavelength. If it takes that much emotional energy for either of you to date I don't think you all are compatible. 

DH and I are also both people that a lot of disengaging behavior would be lost on us, we'd probably just think you were busy. We didn't respond in time last time because we got busy at work. We responded quickly other times because we weren't busy. It's actually why I knew I wanted to marry DH early on, because he was the first male who stated what he wanted from me and I was fine with what he wanted from me. 

[Heartstrings]

50 minutes ago, Clarita said:

It's actually why I knew I wanted to marry DH early on, because he was the first male who stated what he wanted from me and I was fine with what he wanted from me.

There were other reasons but I tease my husband that I married solely because him his apartment was set to the same temperature mine was.   My dad always kept the house much colder than I found comfortable and I knew I wasn’t willing to live with a husband that wanted to do that.  Temperature preference wasn’t going to be a trait I could change in a man.   

Edited November 22, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Scarlett]

Dating with kids  is very difficult.   There is naturally less of us to go around once we are parents.  You need a certain level of time commitment but you also want  a man who is stepping up in his role as father.

Agreeing with others you look for someone who matches your energy and style of interaction.