There is no utopia, but there are options.

[Carrie12345]

If anyone wants to play…

What systems are working best, and how are we defining best?

Personally, I think poverty rates are one of the best measures of widespread success, but they don’t tell the whole story, and not every country measures the same. For example, the US rate is around 11.5%, but it only takes into account minimum nutritional need in food dollars. So I guess you’re fine if you’re eating under a bridge.

A light search gave me this hit, which I found interesting. https://www.borgenmagazine.com/inside-the-countries-with-the-lowest-poverty-rates/

[bookbard]

Interesting topic - I found this list, which not only includes low income but families with fewer than 10 books in the house: Child poverty statistics: how the UK compares to other countries | News | theguardian.com

[Heartstrings]

I think having strong social safety nets is important. 

Some sort of free at-point service health care would be good.  All of our peer countries manage to do it, so I would say that it's probably a better system overall.   (I know the arguments against it, I'm not super interested in rehashing it.)   

Paying out the child tax credit monthly instead of as part of a tax return seemed to work really well, cutting child poverty in half while it was active, I know other countries also pay out money monthly to help parents, so again it works everywhere else.  A lot of our social problems come from children being raised in poverty.  If we spend a generation investing in keeping more kids out of poverty we could decrease spending on jails and other social services for the next generation.  

 

[Carrie12345]

20 minutes ago, bookbard said:

Interesting topic - I found this list, which not only includes low income but families with fewer than 10 books in the house: Child poverty statistics: how the UK compares to other countries | News | theguardian.com

Alphabetical lists are always a perk when discussing US and UK, lol. 
Get a load of the teensy tiny percentages of kids in poverty without a working parent. Interesting.

[Carrie12345]

19 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

we spend a generation investing in keeping more kids out of poverty we could decrease spending on jails and other social services for the next generation.  

Ah, but how could the private prison system survive?!? 😱

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Carrie12345 said:

Ah, but how could the private prison system survive?!? 😱

I know, it's such a heartbreaking problem.  

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Alphabetical lists are always a perk when discussing US and UK, lol. 
Get a load of the teensy tiny percentages of kids in poverty without a working parent. Interesting.

Which proves, for the one-millionth time, that most of the people in poverty are not there simply because they refuse to work. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Melissa Louise]

I find it hard to think about what's working when those things that are working are all under the huge shadow of what isn't - climate.policy.

I did read a nice (but so very limited) story yesterday about a town which helped 11 pensioners create a heat-safe room in their houses, to survive the coming increase in dangerous heat waves. So I guess that was something working.

I also find it hard to think about what's working under the competing shadow of an increasing split in (my) society between haves and have nots.

The haves can build heat-safe rooms.

The have- nots are sleeping in tents or in  their cars.

The social contract is breaking here in many ways.

 

 

[Carrie12345]

34 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I find it hard to think about what's working when those things that are working are all under the huge shadow of what isn't - climate.policy.

I did read a nice (but so very limited) story yesterday about a town which helped 11 pensioners create a heat-safe room in their houses, to survive the coming increase in dangerous heat waves. So I guess that was something working.

I also find it hard to think about what's working under the competing shadow of an increasing split in (my) society between haves and have nots.

The haves can build heat-safe rooms.

The have- nots are sleeping in tents or in  their cars.

The social contract is breaking here in many ways.

 

 

I can’t disagree about the importance of climate change and the disinterest in action. One would actually have to care about young people and future generations to take up the cause. I don’t believe most people in power care about more than themselves and I don’t think the majority of laypeople care to understand science and reality.

I don’t believe that leaves the rest to be ignored. Most of us still have to live a while. And if our decedents are going to live with more radical climates, perhaps we can at least not leave them to be suffering in other ways as well.

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I can’t disagree about the importance of climate change and the disinterest in action. One would actually have to care about young people and future generations to take up the cause. I don’t believe most people in power care about more than themselves and I don’t think the majority of laypeople care to understand science and reality.

I don’t believe that leaves the rest to be ignored. Most of us still have to live a while. And if our decedents are going to live with more radical climates, perhaps we can at least not leave them to be suffering in other ways as well.

Well, this is true, but quite honestly, where I live, we are not doing that either.

We have a huge housing crisis, for example. Housing is important in terms of minimal life standards.

There is no interest (from those profiting from housing, including nominally centre-left governing politicians) in doing anything to tackle the crisis in a meaningful way.

I think if you are not at the pointy edge of the crisis, it's easier to be more optimistic. 

 

[KSera]

47 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I also find it hard to think about what's working under the competing shadow of an increasing split in (my) society between haves and have nots.

Here in the US as well. My impression from what I’m seeing is that this disparity is much worse in some parts of the country than others, but it’s a factor everywhere. But the more the haves “succeed,” the harder it becomes for the have nots to just survive. 

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Well, this is true, but quite honestly, where I live, we are not doing that either.

We have a huge housing crisis, for example. Housing is important in terms of minimal life standards.

There is no interest (from those profiting from housing, including nominally centre-left governing politicians) in doing anything to tackle the crisis in a meaningful way.

I think if you are not at the pointy edge of the crisis, it's easier to be more optimistic. 

 

It’s hard. I’m renting under market value (and under cost) to a friend in need of a place. But I also want to sell within the next 10 months to get out of the ownership obligation. As a non-corporate owner, my only “power” is over one dinky house. Well, its power is over me at the moment!!!

Is that selfish of me in the long run? Kind of, yeah. Maybe not as selfish as installing granite and charging twice what I paid just because I could.

 

[Heartstrings]

17 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

We have a huge housing crisis, for example. Housing is important in terms of minimal life standards.

We have one as well, and it's only getting worse as corporations buy up the housing supply to turn into rental properties.  We are looking at having to move to a location where despite making a 6 figure income we'll be completely unable to buy a house, likely ever again.  The jobs are in places where the housing is completely out of reach, but the housing that is possible is in places with no jobs.    There's always the hope of a remote job coming through, but honestly, those often have 1000s of applications for each job. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Melissa Louise]

16 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

It’s hard. I’m renting under market value (and under cost) to a friend in need of a place. But I also want to sell within the next 10 months to get out of the ownership obligation. As a non-corporate owner, my only “power” is over one dinky house. Well, its power is over me at the moment!!!

Is that selfish of me in the long run? Kind of, yeah. Maybe not as selfish as installing granite and charging twice what I paid just because I could.

 

I'm not super interested in individual choices - I am made pessimistic by the lack of meaningful policy.

 

[Melissa Louise]

12 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

We have one as well, and it's only getting worse as corporations buy up the housing supply to turn into rental properties.  We are looking at having to move to a location where despite making a 6 figure income we'll be completely unable to buy a house, likely ever again.  The jobs are in places where the housing is completely out of reach, but the housing that is possible is in places with no jobs.    There's always the hope of a remote job coming through, but honestly, those often have 1000s of applications for each job. 

Yes, I have friends in similar positions. 

 

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, I have friends in similar positions. 

 

I'm honestly very concerned for my kids, and now I'm worried for myself as well.  If prices keep going up, how are kids in high school now ever supposed to live?  

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I'm honestly very concerned for my kids, and now I'm worried for myself as well.  If prices keep going up, how are kids in high school now ever supposed to live?  

My kids and I are living it. It's precarious.

My form of optimism is thinking when things get to a certain level of bad, perhaps big changes take place.

New forms of housing/living - perhaps more communal. The advantage of a completely broken system is that it forces innovation.

It may look very different to what we think of as normal now. 

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

My kids and I are living it. It's precarious.

My form of optimism is thinking when things get to a certain level of bad, perhaps big changes take place.

New forms of housing/living - perhaps more communal. The advantage of a completely broken system is that it forces innovation.

It may look very different to what we think of as normal now. 

So you're saying I should work on that commune that I want?  

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

So you're saying I should work on that commune that I want?  

YES!!

[Carrie12345]

31 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm not super interested in individual choices - I am made pessimistic by the lack of meaningful policy.

 

Okay.

 I’m interested in how systems and policy impact individual opportunities and decisions.

[Ausmumof3]

Things are still doable where I live housing wise. Most of the youngish twenties people I know have been able to buy houses. Women are working a lot sooner and longer with babies to achieve it but they’re still doing it. Rural areas in Aus are crying out for workers and there is housing sometimes sitting empty. (Sometimes. Some areas it’s filled with people working on current projects etc). Investing in better healthcare and internet for rural areas in Australia seems like it would pay off.

[Carrie12345]

9 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Things are still doable where I live housing wise. Most of the youngish twenties people I know have been able to buy houses. Women are working a lot sooner and longer with babies to achieve it but they’re still doing it. Rural areas in Aus are crying out for workers and there is housing sometimes sitting empty. (Sometimes. Some areas it’s filled with people working on current projects etc). Investing in better healthcare and internet for rural areas in Australia seems like it would pay off.

What kind of work is available rurally there?

In my rural(ish) area, people have been flooding in for decades, but most still commute outside of the area for work.

[Rosie_0801]

24 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Things are still doable where I live housing wise. Most of the youngish twenties people I know have been able to buy houses. Women are working a lot sooner and longer with babies to achieve it but they’re still doing it. Rural areas in Aus are crying out for workers and there is housing sometimes sitting empty. (Sometimes. Some areas it’s filled with people working on current projects etc). Investing in better healthcare and internet for rural areas in Australia seems like it would pay off.

In my region housing was short even before the floods. People laugh when anyone gets onto the local FB pages seeking rentals.

I think the main problem here is the price of building materials.

[Ottakee]

My county has a huge housing crisis.  The houses that used to be the low income rentals are being bought up for Air bnb as I am also in a tourist area and they can get more in a week than a monthly long term rental.

there are almost no apartments available and rent is very high.  Renting a house is nigh to impossible.   Housing for my special needs students is so hard to come by (supported type homes) and income based housing has wait lists od years and years.

people will get a section 8 voucher but can not find any rental in the county to use it on.

people are sorta for affordable housing ….as long as it isn’t in their neighborhood 

[Ausmumof3]

39 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

In my region housing was short even before the floods. People laugh when anyone gets onto the local FB pages seeking rentals.

I think the main problem here is the price of building materials.

I think that’s true. We also seem to have lots of construction companies going down over here partly because of the increased price of materials, so that won’t help. 

[TechWife]

 The public library systems in the US are phenomenal. Yes, there are  variants in funding and services offered as the majority of the funding us usually  on the local level. Not every library has the resources to do everything their community needs, sadly.

Overall though, they are a fantastic thing, whether or not they have all of the “bells & whistles.” I don’t know anyone who can say they have more books than a library does. 

You can get a book transferred from just about any library in the country to your local library for you to pick up and read. Magazines, newspapers, computers, study carrels, ebooks, e-magazines, e-newspapers, audio books, large print books, community rooms, story time, librarians, research assistance, curated book lists, kids are welcome and encouraged to come, book clubs, reading challenges, heat in the winter, air conditioning in the summer, help writing a resume, internet connections, literacy classes, ESL classes - I’m sure I’m leaving things out. Oh yes, you can bring the books home to read! And anyone can go! And it’s free at the point of delivery! 

What does your library system do for you? 

ETA - What makes it “best” -

1 - Available to everyone w/librarians actively working to remove  barriers to access

2 - Free at the point of service

3 - Reading is power

Edited October 2, 2023 by TechWife

[TechWife]

This thread is a great idea!

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

Okay.

 I’m interested in how systems and policy impact individual opportunities and decisions.

I meant, as in not judging individuals as landlords or whatever. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Things are still doable where I live housing wise. Most of the youngish twenties people I know have been able to buy houses. Women are working a lot sooner and longer with babies to achieve it but they’re still doing it. Rural areas in Aus are crying out for workers and there is housing sometimes sitting empty. (Sometimes. Some areas it’s filled with people working on current projects etc). Investing in better healthcare and internet for rural areas in Australia seems like it would pay off.

One reason I couldn't move rural is because I need easy  access to good healthcare re my chronic illness. So yes, better health care.

Another reason is being reliant of public transport. 

[Ausmumof3]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

One reason I couldn't move rural is because I need easy  access to good healthcare re my chronic illness. So yes, better health care.

Another reason is being reliant of public transport. 

Yeah, there’s lots of issues.

some of which could be solved with government effort 

Limited education options available, 

public transport 

Lack of childcare for young families

Cost of getting trades and materials out to build or renovate 

Access to fresh food 

more disaster resilience planning needs 

[bookbard]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

One reason I couldn't move rural is because I need easy  access to good healthcare re my chronic illness. So yes, better health care.

 

Yes, I know so many people moving out west, but I had to take my daughter to the children's hospital the other day as it was literally the only place that would look at her eye. We're 1.5hrs away and that's ok, but I wouldn't want to be any further. The ordinary hospital which is 45mins away has been fine for us for basic emergencies but you never know when you need a specialist. 

I always think of the UK as being really poor but apparently Australia has a higher poverty rate. But then our population is smaller. So per capita more poverty but overall UK would have more people in poverty. 

I do think disability is a big part of poverty too. Lots of people with disabilities aren't eligible for the disability allowance, but also can't work. It is a crazy situation. But then our local fb page is full of people whinging about people being on the dole and not working. It's bizarre.

[Rosie_0801]

9 minutes ago, bookbard said:

But then our local fb page is full of people whinging about people being on the dole and not working. It's bizarre.

We have less of that now that it's occurred to people that it isn't laziness preventing the unemployed from manifesting an occupational therapy qualification.

[SKL]

A lot of comments about housing crisis.

I guess I'm confused - at least in the US, population growth is pretty slow, so why is there such a huge need for new houses / rental units?  I understand there are migrations, but that doesn't seem to explain most of it.

I think some people have unrealistic expectations.  I think downsizing and/or sharing would be a great idea for many people.  It's nice to see some folks upthread say similar.  Usually when I talk about sharing, people start listing the reasons why it can't work.

I am hoping my kids will be able to stay comfortably in my house until they are ready and able to take on the burden of a separate house (probably with a spouse or friend).

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I think some people have unrealistic expectations.  I think downsizing and/or sharing would be a great idea for many people.  It's nice to see some folks upthread say similar.  Usually when I talk about sharing, people start listing the reasons why it can't work.

Last time we looked at my ex-mil's options for downsizing, it seemed anything suitable would cost just the same as she'd get for her house, or more. Not sure how that makes any sense, but that was pretty much the reality of it.

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

A lot of comments about housing crisis.

I guess I'm confused - at least in the US, population growth is pretty slow, so why is there such a huge need for new houses / rental units?  I understand there are migrations, but that doesn't seem to explain most of it.

I think some people have unrealistic expectations.  I think downsizing and/or sharing would be a great idea for many people.  It's nice to see some folks upthread say similar.  Usually when I talk about sharing, people start listing the reasons why it can't work.

I am hoping my kids will be able to stay comfortably in my house until they are ready and able to take on the burden of a separate house (probably with a spouse or friend).

It’s pretty local but when a 1000 sq ft fixer is $350k-$4000, at 8% interest, Im not sure what the answer is.  I didn’t pull that out if thin air, I’ve been looking in advance of a possible move.  1000 sq ft fixers for $350k, with a 45 min commute from the job.  

I think there are different causes.

 A lot of landlords cashed out in the past couple of years, leaving fewer rentals.  Corporations are buying up whole blocks of towns and turning it all into rentals, which also lets them inflate the price, plus all the AirBnb people.  

Older people are staying put in their paid off homes, which keeps people in starter homes longer, which keeps people stuck in rentals.   It doesn’t make sense to downsize into something that costs more than your current house. 

I’ve seen people talk about $5000 a MONTH rent, outside of NYC or LA.   That’s just unbelievable.

[bookbard]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I guess I'm confused - at least in the US, population growth is pretty slow, so why is there such a huge need for new houses / rental units?  I understand there are migrations, but that doesn't seem to explain most of it.

 

I think there's a mix of situations. Yes, migration, and that is a huge thing in Australia. I think I read it's around 200,000 extra people per year, which is a lot for a country of our size. In the USA apparently it's around one million or more? 

The other thing is that people are living longer (or were until Covid) and so holding onto houses longer, so there's not much left for the next generation

Next there's the effect of Air BnB which has been huge, right around the world. Homes that were once for rent are now holiday homes. I can see the effect of that it my town, which has a population of around 1,000 and yet has 50 Air bnbs!

And next there's the lack of social housing. Australia stopped building social housing and allowed people to buy the social houses they were in, which took them out of the mix. So there's only 1 social house for 20 people, whereas at least 1 in 10 need them. 

[Melissa in Australia]

All the above

Plus  record number of international students who need to rent 

Plus foreign investment, buying up apartments in the cities and leaving them vacant. 

[Melissa Louise]

I'm looking at shared housing - I'm not picky (I am, I don't want to share with males unknown to me).

It's as expensive to rent a room near to where I work as it was to rent a whole (small) apartment about five years ago. 

But anyway, housing is a not-working thing, and this thread is for things that are working, so I'll leave that one there. Just wanted to say, the housing crisis here is not people being picky and wanting a mansion.

[Carrie12345]

7 hours ago, SKL said:

A lot of comments about housing crisis.

I guess I'm confused - at least in the US, population growth is pretty slow, so why is there such a huge need for new houses / rental units?  I understand there are migrations, but that doesn't seem to explain most of it.

I think some people have unrealistic expectations.  I think downsizing and/or sharing would be a great idea for many people.  It's nice to see some folks upthread say similar.  Usually when I talk about sharing, people start listing the reasons why it can't work.

I am hoping my kids will be able to stay comfortably in my house until they are ready and able to take on the burden of a separate house (probably with a spouse or friend).

The reproduction rate is down, but it’s still replicating off of the previous generation(s), in addition to migration/immigration and longer life expectancy.

We upsized so adult children could stay if needed/wanted, but sometimes their needs are different, for work, for transportation, etc.

[Carrie12345]

My area (not my town) is finally getting an apartment complex built. Obviously it’s too early to tell if it will work to reduce the crisis. There’s no word yet on whether they will be “normal” and/or affordable or “luxury” and/or just enough to call cheaper than buying a house… or more. 

[Faith-manor]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:35 AM, Rosie_0801 said:

Last time we looked at my ex-mil's options for downsizing, it seemed anything suitable would cost just the same as she'd get for her house, or more. Not sure how that makes any sense, but that was pretty much the reality of it.

Same here. My mother has too much house for her needs, and the house is not conducive to age in place. But she can't sell it and downsize affordably. There is almost zero handicap accessible housing in the county. One set of apartments in the county seat, one set of condos in the town north of us. That is it. There are years long waiting lists for the apartments, and the condos are way higher priced than she can get for her house. So she will be staying put. Her house has a wheelchair ramp on it so that is helpful because she uses it with her cane eliminating the use of steps.

As for what is working right, that is a tough one. From my perspective, so many systems are entirely broken or were never good to begin with. I did think of one today, and that is the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. It is such a well run agency, lots of accountability, and the people who work for it have tremendous integrity. They are deeply committed to protecting and managing the state's natural resources, and quite frankly, with the amount of money they get, pretty darn efficient and get a lot done.

Their educational programs are excellent. I used to lead an environmental/ecology 4H club in addition to our STEM and rocketry club. I used a ton of materials from the DNR that were free to educators. Those materials were fantastic. I would take them any day over a public school textbook that covers the same materials.

I feel like the nation could learn some things from them. I know not every state has this level of resource management, and that is pretty scary given what we face in the next 30 years of climate disaster. 

When it comes though to most government programs, I think we are hurting to come up with ones that are really getting the job done. Seems the wheels have fallen off the train.

 

[Carrie12345]

48 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

As for what is working right, that is a tough one. From my perspective, so many systems are entirely broken or were never good to begin with. I did think of one today, and that is the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. It is such a well run agency, lots of accountability, and the people who work for it have tremendous integrity. They are deeply committed to protecting and managing the state's natural resources, and quite frankly, with the amount of money they get, pretty darn efficient and get a lot done.

Their educational programs are excellent. I used to lead an environmental/ecology 4H club in addition to our STEM and rocketry club. I used a ton of materials from the DNR that were free to educators. Those materials were fantastic. I would take them any day over a public school textbook that covers the same materials.

I feel like the nation could learn some things from them. I know not every state has this level of resource management, and that is pretty scary given what we face in the next 30 years of climate disaster. 

We had an amazing conservation organization and forestry department to work with when my kids were younger. They’ve gone down hill as people retired. Fewer programs and with more public school feel to them. It’s heartbreaking!

[fairfarmhand]

On 10/1/2023 at 5:31 PM, Heartstrings said:

I'm honestly very concerned for my kids, and now I'm worried for myself as well.  If prices keep going up, how are kids in high school now ever supposed to live?  

My dd and her dh are married with STEM degrees and it's still a struggle and rent is the biggest part of that. They're making it ok but it is HARD!

On 10/1/2023 at 10:12 PM, SKL said:

A lot of comments about housing crisis.

I guess I'm confused - at least in the US, population growth is pretty slow, so why is there such a huge need for new houses / rental units?  I understand there are migrations, but that doesn't seem to explain most of it.

I think some people have unrealistic expectations.  I think downsizing and/or sharing would be a great idea for many people.  It's nice to see some folks upthread say similar.  Usually when I talk about sharing, people start listing the reasons why it can't work.

I am hoping my kids will be able to stay comfortably in my house until they are ready and able to take on the burden of a separate house (probably with a spouse or friend).

For our state, people are moving from a lot of West coast places to TN. This is killing the housing market for locals. The West coast people can sell their house, pay off their mortgage, take the equity and pay cash for a nicer place in TN. They can still outbid the locals. 

I've been looking for a small, ugly, older, structurally sound home for my dd. We would buy and let them rent. This is a unicorn apparently. I found ONE last week. And it was sold less than 10 hours after coming on the market.

We're 35 ish minutes from a major city. It's even worse there. And I wonder where are the janitors and bus drivers and waitresses living in that city? How in the world are they making it?

Edited October 3, 2023 by fairfarmhand

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

My dd and her dh are married with STEM degrees and it's still a struggle and rent is the biggest part of that. They're making it ok but it is HARD!

For our state, people are moving from a lot of West coast places to TN. This is killing the housing market for locals. The West coast people can sell their house, pay off their mortgage, take the equity and pay cash for a nicer place in TN. They can still outbid the locals. 

I've been looking for a small, ugly, older, structurally sound home for my dd. We would buy and let them rent. This is a unicorn apparently. I found ONE last week. And it was sold less than 10 hours after coming on the market.

We're 35 ish minutes from a major city. It's even worse there. And I wonder where are the janitors and bus drivers and waitresses living in that city? How in the world are they making it?

Same in Oklahoma.  The market for houses and cars is insane.

And the answer to your last question is a lot of them are actually not making it.  Homeless is on the rise. Moving in with other families is on the rise. We know sooooo many people that if they can’t live with family or have a few roommates - they are making very long commutes. Like 45 minutes to an hour and half is not unusual.

Older people may have done that to get more house for their buck or bc they wanted the “country” life 15 years ago.

But now people just can’t get anything in their price range closer to the major cities where they work.  And they are not having it easy finding something outside the city either, but at least there’s a chance.  For now anyways. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

My dd and her dh are married with STEM degrees and it's still a struggle and rent is the biggest part of that. They're making it ok but it is HARD!

For our state, people are moving from a lot of West coast places to TN. This is killing the housing market for locals. The West coast people can sell their house, pay off their mortgage, take the equity and pay cash for a nicer place in TN. They can still outbid the locals. 

I've been looking for a small, ugly, older, structurally sound home for my dd. We would buy and let them rent. This is a unicorn apparently. I found ONE last week. And it was sold less than 10 hours after coming on the market.

We're 35 ish minutes from a major city. It's even worse there. And I wonder where are the janitors and bus drivers and waitresses living in that city? How in the world are they making it?

I wonder this too! Even in our lower COL, the pay for these positions is not enough for rent or mortgage anymore. I suspect that when the next wave of retirement hits, there will be no one to do these jobs because people cannot survive on them, or the folks who do accept them will be the ones that managed to find a 3 bedroom apartment with 5 different adult earners sharing expenses. Something has to give. And I do know young adults living in vans, Vanlife being a long term thing for them, not just a single year out of life in order to travel across the States.

[Heartstrings]

13 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Same in Oklahoma.  The market for houses and cars is insane.

And the answer to your last question is a lot of them are actually not making it.  Homeless is on the rise. Moving in with other families is on the rise. We know sooooo many people that if they can’t live with family or have a few roommates - they are making very long commutes. Like 45 minutes to an hour and half is not unusual.

Older people may have done that to get more house for their buck or bc they wanted the “country” life 15 years ago.

But now people just can’t get anything in their price range closer to the major cities where they work.  And they are not having it easy finding something outside the city either, but at least there’s a chance.  For now anyways. 

Which is terrible for the kids of those people.  More kids in poorer schools district, more kids with less supervision because mom and dad are working, more kids with less time with mom and dad and more time in often poor quality childcare or at home alone on the internet.  

[frogger]

On 10/1/2023 at 7:12 PM, SKL said:

A lot of comments about housing crisis.

I guess I'm confused - at least in the US, population growth is pretty slow, so why is there such a huge need for new houses / rental units?  I understand there are migrations, but that doesn't seem to explain most of it.

I think some people have unrealistic expectations.  I think downsizing and/or sharing would be a great idea for many people.  It's nice to see some folks upthread say similar.  Usually when I talk about sharing, people start listing the reasons why it can't work.

I am hoping my kids will be able to stay comfortably in my house until they are ready and able to take on the burden of a separate house (probably with a spouse or friend).

Along with all the mentions of Air B&B and geographical shifts, I will say demographics are big. There used to be more under 18's crowded into homes, now there are more singles and seperated parents so the same family needs two homes.

Also, many of the older generation have 2 or 3 homes. It is hard to save up to get started in the housing market when so much goes to rent but those already in a home have a steady mortgage. So the inflation isn't hitting them the same and they can save up and purchase another. The renter will be helping with the payment so mostly they need to save up a large enough down to put their mortgage in rental territory with some extra for maintenance. Yes you can get room mates when renting  but we all did that too except we had room mates AND cheaper rent.

Lastly, homes deterorate. A home owner with margin will provide upkeep on their home and it will stay habitable indefinitly. There is also a percentage of housing moving to the uninhabitable every year though. It could be lack of maintenance on a forclosure, home of someone sick or elderly who can't keep up, or the person who decided to cook meth in their house. Homes that are uncared for will need to be demolished at some point so there needs to be a certain amount of building just to hold steady. 

 

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

Same in Oklahoma.  The market for houses and cars is insane.

And the answer to your last question is a lot of them are actually not making it.  Homeless is on the rise. Moving in with other families is on the rise. We know sooooo many people that if they can’t live with family or have a few roommates - they are making very long commutes. Like 45 minutes to an hour and half is not unusual.

Older people may have done that to get more house for their buck or bc they wanted the “country” life 15 years ago.

But now people just can’t get anything in their price range closer to the major cities where they work.  And they are not having it easy finding something outside the city either, but at least there’s a chance.  For now anyways. 

My DSIL drives over one hour to work one way. So he spends over 2 hours in the car. That makes it REALLY hard for him to pick up overtime hours and such to help make a bit of extra cash. There are many days when he's slept in the car or found an empty corner in his workplace to sleep because it makes no sense when he works overtime to drive home and sleep and then turn around to come back the next day.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

Along with all the mentions of Air B&B and geographical shifts, I will say demographics are big. There used to be more under 18's crowded into homes, now there are more singles and seperated parents so the same family needs two homes.

Also, many of the older generation have 2 or 3 homes. It is hard to save up to get started in the housing market when so much goes to rent but those already in a home have a steady mortgage. So the inflation isn't hitting them the same and they can save up and purchase another. The renter will be helping with the payment so mostly they need to save up a large enough down to put their mortgage in rental territory with some extra for maintenance. Yes you can get room mates when renting  but we all did that too except we had room mates AND cheaper rent.

Lastly, homes deterorate. A home owner with margin will provide upkeep on their home and it will stay habitable indefinitly. There is also a percentage of housing moving to the uninhabitable every year though. It could be lack of maintenance on a forclosure, home of someone sick or elderly who can't keep up, or the person who decided to cook meth in their house. Homes that are uncared for will need to be demolished at some point so there needs to be a certain amount of building just to hold steady. 

 

Yes. My state is hugely affected by both second homeowners and sort term rentals (VRBO, AirBnb) due to having so much natural beauty plus desirable major cities.

We’ve also lost significant housing, especially low income housing, to natural disasters.

Demographics are also very important here. We have a demographic bulge of those in the family formation years and a limited supply of houses for them to purchase. This is coupled with lots of retirees owning one or more homes and staying in them longer.

Also, the construction industry here has never completely recovered from the Great Recession. We are still building fewer homes per year than we did prior to the housing crash despite significant increases in population.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

Nm

Edited October 4, 2023 by Frances