More venting about inlaws

[Innisfree]

It’s so hard to be the in-law watching a situation like this. Hugs.

[saraha]

6 hours ago, itsheresomewhere said:

“Sure, I’ll help you with this in the best way I can-  here is a list of care places/agencies for the area.  I would call soon if I were you to get her the care she needs.”

And repeat this every single time they ask.  Make a copy of the list and copy/paste it in text or email evenhanded time. It is ok to say no to family. 

I did this two years ago, it is currently sitting on top of the refrigerator. Two years ago bil agreed to go on a tour of one of the places I had called, but no one else would go so we didn’t. Then almost a year ago that same place lost a dementia patient and she got hit by a car in the night, and there was a big thing as we know these people, and that made everyone more adamant that she be at home. I do t know if fil remembers that incident or not, but I do know everyone else does

[QueenCat]

10 hours ago, saraha said:

 

I did tell dh that if going over a couple of nights a week entitled literally helping her get her nightgown on and tucking her into bed and didn’t take longer than 20 minutes, I would be willing to do that. He said she hadn’t followed up yet with that either, so I’m not going to reach out, but if she does ask again, I’m going to agree to two nights a week that I choose since I’m the one who still has kids in evening activities.

This will take way more than 20 minutes. And she will need to use the bathroom before bed. Plus any cleaning up of her more recent accidents. Saying NO helps push closer to moving her where she needs to be. And your DH needs to support you to his family in whatever you decide to do.

[Faith-manor]

Please stop. I am begging you. Do not volunteer for two nights a week. You need to stop propping up this madness.

Cat woman said it best. 

[Terabith]

Saying no also protects you from a charge of elder neglect.  Not that it’s likely to ever be charged, but if you’re a regular caregiver and someone does rightly say this is neglect, you could be liable as someone propping up the system.  
 

Absolutely no way getting her into her Jammies would be a 20 minute endeavor.  It would quickly become a 1-2 hour event. 

[saraha]

16 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Saying no also protects you from a charge of elder neglect.  Not that it’s likely to ever be charged, but if you’re a regular caregiver and someone does rightly say this is neglect, you could be liable as someone propping up the system.  
 

Absolutely no way getting her into her Jammies would be a 20 minute endeavor.  It would quickly become a 1-2 hour event. 

I literally don’t have 1-2 hours two nights a week to even do this. That’s why I was thinking if she asked and it was 20 minutes I could, but I just literally cannot devote that much time in the evening

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Saying no also protects you from a charge of elder neglect.  Not that it’s likely to ever be charged, but if you’re a regular caregiver and someone does rightly say this is neglect, you could be liable as someone propping up the system.  
 

Absolutely no way getting her into her Jammies would be a 20 minute endeavor.  It would quickly become a 1-2 hour event. 

This. There is liability here.

I started taking care of my father, then realized I was in over my head, and tried to back out. A relative called the police, and I was nearly charged with eldercare abuse/abandonment. If he had been in a facility, I could not be charged because placing him in a facility is considered adequate care. Saraha, you have such p.o.s. relatives that I could totally see them vindictively calling authorities if you start providing care of any kind and then back out.

The only thing that awarded off the county prosecutor who is a total zealot about "family should be required to care for family" kind of guy was that I had three journalists on the line on my phone when he asked to talk to me, and he really didn't want to deal with public fall out. I also told him that I had my lawyer ready to intervene, and had picked out my outfit for when I surrendered to authorities as well as a photographer from the local newspaper who agreed to show up to document the whole thing in pictures. It was an election year for the twit so he backed down, and I never heard another word.

We also had to hire an attorney to represent out minor teens against extended family who were attempting to rope them into providing shifts of care AND wanting them to drive their grandfather to see my mom while there was a restraining order in place against him thus trying to make them accessories to violating the restraining order. O could write a horror novel based on this portion of my life. We were out of country when this happened, the kids called us shaking in fear over what their uncle, aunt, and my mom were trying to make them do. So we had to arrange for a lawyer to call and lambast my father, mother, and siblings all arranged long distance and at great expense.

Just don't. Let the horror I lived be a warning to Saraha and all of you.

[Terabith]

Just now, saraha said:

I literally don’t have 1-2 hours two nights a week to even do this. That’s why I was thinking if she asked and it was 20 minutes I could, but I just literally cannot devote that much time in the evening

Right, but there’s no way in practice that they won’t make it into that with the need to shower/ potty/ feed/ medicate/ difficulty getting her down.  

[saraha]

2 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This. There is liability here.

I started taking care of my father, then realized I was in over my head, and tried to back out. A relative called the police, and I was nearly charged with eldercare abuse/abandonment. If he had been in a facility, I could not be charged because placing him in a facility is considered adequate care. Saraha, you have such p.o.s. relatives that I could totally see them vindictively calling authorities if you start providing care of any kind and then back out.

The only thing that awarded off the county prosecutor who is a total zealot about "family should be required to care for family" kind of guy was that I had three journalists on the line on my phone when he asked to talk to me, and he really didn't want to deal with public fall out. I also told him that I had my lawyer ready to intervene, and had picked out my outfit for when I surrendered to authorities as well as a photographer from the local newspaper who agreed to show up to document the whole thing in pictures. It was an election year for the twit so he backed down, and I never heard another word.

We also had to hire an attorney to represent out minor teens against extended family who were attempting to rope them into providing shifts of care AND wanting them to drive their grandfather to see my mom while there was a restraining order in place against him thus trying to make them accessories to violating the restraining order. O could write a horror novel based on this portion of my life. We were out of country when this happened, the kids called us shaking in fear over what their uncle, aunt, and my mom were trying to make them do. So we had to arrange for a lawyer to call and lambast my father, mother, and siblings all arranged long distance and at great expense.

Just don't. Let the horror I lived be a warning to Saraha and all of you.

Woah. That is way more crazy than what I am dealing with. I’m so sorry for your family, especially your poor kids!

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

Right, but there’s no way in practice that they won’t make it into that with the need to shower/ potty/ feed/ medicate/ difficulty getting her down.  

Yeah, when I first thought about agreeing to this arrangement I hadn’t thought about people piling on more as time goes by, but I totally see that as a possibility now making me more inclined to say no. She hasn’t actually asked me, she asked dh if I would do it. She talks directly to me as little as possible 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

 I come from a farm family who’s culture is very much keep the elderly at home no matter what and are now finding that my grandmother needs 24/7 home care which doesn’t exist for her level of needs in my area because she needs incontinence care.

Is it a family culture thing or concern about finances/neglect in a nursing home? 

[Moonhawk]

18 minutes ago, saraha said:

Woah. That is way more crazy than what I am dealing with. I’m so sorry for your family, especially your poor kids!

Yeah, when I first thought about agreeing to this arrangement I hadn’t thought about people piling on more as time goes by, but I totally see that as a possibility now making me more inclined to say no. She hasn’t actually asked me, she asked dh if I would do it. She talks directly to me as little as possible 

Just talking about this part: I've learned that if someone isn't willing to ask me directly, it's because they already know it's an unreasonable request and/or they can't justify it if I asked questions. So, they rely on people with more ability to manipulate me (eg, husband, kid) to ask me instead since I will automatically be more willing to do something for these people. 

Your SIL is trying to manipulate you by putting her requests through your husband's voice. I think I would take the approach that if she doesn't ask you directly, nothing was actually asked. Perhaps you should ask your DH not to tell his family "I'll ask her", but just say "you'd need to ask her yourself." And see if she actually reaches out or if she gives it up before it even begins.

eta: if she does reach out to you directly, you'd need to be comfortable saying No to her directly, though, and be willing to stand firm to her direct manipulations with guilt/cajoling/etc. If it's easier just to leave as is, that's a valid point, too. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Moonhawk

[Grace Hopper]

2 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

Just talking about this part: I've learned that if someone isn't willing to ask me directly, it's because they already know it's an unreasonable request and/or they can't justify it if I asked questions. So, they rely on people with more ability to manipulate me (eg, husband, kid) to ask me instead since I will automatically be more willing to do something for these people. 

Your SIL is trying to manipulate you by putting her requests through your husband's voice. I think I would take the approach that if she doesn't ask you directly, nothing was actually asked. Perhaps you should ask your DH not to tell his family "I'll ask her", but just say "you'd need to ask her yourself." And see if she actually reaches out or if she gives it up before it even begins.

100%!
 

They’ve cut you out of the info loop despite your many attempts to be kept in. Yet when they need dirty work done, you’re the first person they think of. They’ve shown their colors plenty enough for you to say no with zero guilt, even if dh is their messenger. 
 

TBH I wish your dh would be the type of intermediary who would understand the requests are unreasonable and not even mention them to you. Because you are tender hearted and fret when you shouldn’t have to even think about some things. 

[Carol in Cal.]

If I were you, I absolutely would not do two nights a week, but I *might* do one.  And I’d bring along an actual caregiver, that I would pay myself, and have them inspect for bedsores or other  ominous stuff, and do the literal heavy lifting, assist with showering, and do the physical work, while I would supervise but not risk my own back, but emotionally support MIL and pray/sing/talk with her to help her feel well loved and settle down into bed.  That way I’d be sure of having eyes on a very concerning situation, I would have evidence AND a witness for anything that I needed to document to the others, and I would not hurt myself.  

For reference, I helped my Dad get from his wheelchair to the adjacent bed earlier this year, and he was not limp but trying to support himself as much as possible, and I still wrenched my back so badly that it hurt for 3 weeks.  There is training needed in how to do this right, and the caregivers have that training but I do not.  

[saraha]

17 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

100%!
 

They’ve cut you out of the info loop despite your many attempts to be kept in. Yet when they need dirty work done, you’re the first person they think of. They’ve shown their colors plenty enough for you to say no with zero guilt, even if dh is their messenger. 
 

TBH I wish your dh would be the type of intermediary who would understand the requests are unreasonable and not even mention them to you. Because you are tender hearted and fret when you shouldn’t have to even think about some things. 

He’s getting there. When this all first started he was their flying monkey and he wanted me to do whatever they asked, go along to get along. We would have “discussions” that would end in me doing whatever it was they wanted because I didn’t want problems between us. He definitely came to see the light though and realized he was putting our relationship at risk to preserve the shallow relationships he had with his siblings. He definitely still passes on the messages, but definitely let’s me make my own decisions about my time now. He saves any input for something that he personally is asking me to do.

I am so grateful, mad it took so many years to get there, but grateful nonetheless 

[elegantlion]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

I literally don’t have 1-2 hours two nights a week to even do this. That’s why I was thinking if she asked and it was 20 minutes I could, but I just literally cannot devote that much time in the evening

SO was helping his mother who has Alzheimer's with her hygiene needs daily before she went into a nursing home. She lived literally in the apartment next door and he was spending more than 20 minutes cleaning her up every day. This was even while wearing Depends. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, saraha said:

I literally don’t have 1-2 hours two nights a week to even do this. That’s why I was thinking if she asked and it was 20 minutes I could, but I just literally cannot devote that much time in the evening

Let me be clear: old people are like toddlers. Nothing happens in 20 minutes even when they are of sound mind and body. They’re sloooooooow.

[Catwoman]

16 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Let me be clear: old people are like toddlers. Nothing happens in 20 minutes even when they are of sound mind and body. They’re sloooooooow.

I have to disagree with this.

I'm sure it's true with some people, but my parents and grandparents all lived into their 80s and 90s, and "slow" wasn't in their vocabulary -- they were all very active and efficient. Even when my grandma was 97, she didn't do anything slowly! 

My own dh would qualify as being an "old person," and he has more energy than most people half his age. (I'm 60, so I'm probably "old" by a lot of people's standards, too, but I would prefer not to think about that if you don't mind. 😉 )

[kbutton]

8 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I have to disagree with this.

I'm sure it's true with some people, but my parents and grandparents all lived into their 80s and 90s, and "slow" wasn't in their vocabulary -- they were all very active and efficient. Even when my grandma was 97, she didn't do anything slowly! 

My own dh would qualify as being an "old person," and he has more energy than most people half his age. (I'm 60, so I'm probably "old" by a lot of people's standards, too, but I would prefer not to think about that if you don't mind. 😉 )

Cool. I can say my old people have been active but not always efficient. Lots of arthritis for starters. Chatty bunch too. 

[fraidycat]

54 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I have to disagree with this.

I'm sure it's true with some people, but my parents and grandparents all lived into their 80s and 90s, and "slow" wasn't in their vocabulary -- they were all very active and efficient. Even when my grandma was 97, she didn't do anything slowly! 

My own dh would qualify as being an "old person," and he has more energy than most people half his age. (I'm 60, so I'm probably "old" by a lot of people's standards, too, but I would prefer not to think about that if you don't mind. 😉 )

I'm 47, and I think my 84 year old aunt could run circles around me. I don't know where she finds the energy. 

[Tenaj]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Let me be clear: old people are like toddlers. Nothing happens in 20 minutes even when they are of sound mind and body. They’re sloooooooow.

And you have to let them be slow or you risk falls and more confusion.  Nothing throws my aunt (dementia, fall risk)more than if I try to hurry her.  You have to let them move at their speed.  I pick her up for church and allow 15 minutes to get out the door but it generally takes 25-30 minutes depending on her mood.  

[Harriet Vane]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

Let me be clear: old people are like toddlers. Nothing happens in 20 minutes even when they are of sound mind and body. They’re sloooooooow.

This, times a million when we are dealing with dementia. There is virtually no way to hurry a dementia patient through a routine, and all the routines will grow progressively slower and slower until they are genuinely mostly catatonic, at which point it's quicker and more efficient even though the work to do is so much heavier and more hands-on.

[Grace Hopper]

27 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

This, times a million when we are dealing with dementia. There is virtually no way to hurry a dementia patient through a routine, and all the routines will grow progressively slower and slower until they are genuinely mostly catatonic, at which point it's quicker and more efficient even though the work to do is so much heavier and more hands-on.

Echoing this to point out dementia is a game changer. At a certain stage an oppositional defiance is prominent (probably in conjunction with paranoia). It can take some calm finesse to get an elder with dementia to cooperate with near anything. 

[saraha]

Sil has not contacted me at all about helping so yay!

But for Pete’s sake the hha must not have shown up today as I passed fil and mil on their way back from town. He’s pretty nervy to take her out actively having diarrhea. And if the hha didn’t show up, I wonder what they are eating today! 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, saraha said:

Sil has not contacted me at all about helping so yay!

But for Pete’s sake the hha must not have shown up today as I passed fil and mil on their way back from town. He’s pretty nervy to take her out actively having diarrhea. And if the hha didn’t show up, I wonder what they are eating today! 

Don't worry about what they're eating -- they will manage somehow.

I'm so glad your SIL hasn't contacted you about helping! And remember, even if she does contact you, you should still say NO. 

You are busy. You have responsibilities. If you want to put in extra time to help someone, so something special to help your dh -- or just do something fun with your kids. 

Try to train your brain to stop feeling obligated to your in-laws. 

[Jaybee]

32 minutes ago, saraha said:

He’s pretty nervy to take her out actively having diarrhea.

I don't quite understand their desire for her to be out and about when she doesn't feel well anyway. Like the above and going to church? Doesn't sound like a good idea.

[alisoncooks]

So, this may not be relevant, but my mother recently had to deal with her father’s declining health and end of life. 

One thing that came up was that the local, rural nursing home could only accept him if he was at a certain level of independence, mobility-wise. Once he declined, they could continue care but would not have accepted him, were he a new patient.  It may be better to look into facilities before you think you need it. Once she reaches a certain point, she may be refused (ie you may be forced to find more skilled care which is likely more expensive).* 

*I don’t know how much dementia affects the above. 

[KungFuPanda]

On 9/23/2023 at 3:59 PM, saraha said:

I honestly don’t know. I’m not on the group chat and the only thing dh has said is that sil wanted to know if since I don’t go to church (but I do work on Sundays) if I could go over every Sunday to get her ready for church (shower, dressed, hair) and to suggest that we all take turns going over at night to get her ready for bed. I do t know what to say to this. I don’t want to do it, but that feels mean, like I don’t care enough about mil and fil to do what they want/need because it’s inconvenient. At the same time, I don’t want to go over and take care of her 2 nights a week and Sunday mornings. I feel selfish, but maybe not selfish enough to agree. She mentioned it to dh Thursday but hasn’t said anything since. I asked if he checked in with them yesterday as I left the house that morning at 9 and didn’t get home til 10pm. He said he hadn’t.

I think it’s time for you to just tell them you are out. Something clear like “I’m happy to make dinner once and visit once a week, but I absolutely will no longer be providing any level of nursing or personal care.  It’s past time to make hard decisions and I can no longer participate in delaying proper, skilled care.”  

Also “I have work and plans with my immediate family on a Sunday and I’m not going to change them.  Ya’ll are trying to put a bandaid on an open wound and I’m no longer part of this. I can be a daughter-in-law, but not a nurse. “

[saraha]

2 hours ago, Jaybee said:

I don't quite understand their desire for her to be out and about when she doesn't feel well anyway. Like the above and going to church? Doesn't sound like a good idea.

Well, the Holy Spirit was working on me at work so I ran over after. Apparently hha did not show up, and he decided to take mil and go to KY to retrieve a starter for the dump truck my nephew is working on. Mil had diarrhea twice before they left but he still went anyway and yup, 45 minutes one way and she messed in the car. Luckily he had put some kind of pad down. He got the starter and brought her home and cleaned her up I guess. I asked if he needed help with anything but he refused. I asked if they had dinner, as I saw a pan of chicken and vegetables out uncovered on the counter and he said yeah they we’re going to have more of that. I don’t know when it was made and he had left it out since lunch. I offered to make something else but he said no. One funny thing though, they were sitting on the couch watching tv and mil had not one time acknowledged my existence. After he got done telling me about the laundry he had done I told him he was going to make a wonderful wife some day. She jerked her head in his direction and laughed out loud! She hadn’t so much as glanced in my direction or even shifted in her seat the whole time I was there, but she heard that!

 I filled dh in on what I learned and figure he can do whatever with that information 

[kbutton]

5 minutes ago, saraha said:

After he got done telling me about the laundry he had done I told him he was going to make a wonderful wife some day. She jerked her head in his direction and laughed out loud! She hadn’t so much as glanced in my direction or even shifted in her seat the whole time I was there, but she heard that!

Oh, that’s funny!

[Carol in Cal.]

Wait, they are taking her out and to church with the runs?  That’s so contagious!  Really not cool for ‘the public’ and certainly uncomfortable and awkward for the family.

[Grace Hopper]

20 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Wait, they are taking her out and to church with the runs?  That’s so contagious!  Really not cool for ‘the public’ and certainly uncomfortable and awkward for the family.

Agree. TBH this shows signs of fil’s declining judgment as well.

[saraha]

51 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Wait, they are taking her out and to church with the runs?  That’s so contagious!  Really not cool for ‘the public’ and certainly uncomfortable and awkward for the family.

They didn’t go to church this week, my two who were home from college for the weeekend stopped by for a visit with them. But he did decide he needed to drive 45 minutes one way with someone who had two episodes even before they left 🙄 His ability to make good decisions is absolutely impaired.