Article in NYT re: Americans losing faith in value of college degree

[Ginevra]

5 hours ago, Clarita said:

So people who are saying college is always(?) worth it. How do you all feel about this situation? Is this scenario worth it?

(My kids are almost 7 and 5. Here's your hunk of salt.) Right at this moment, I see myself weighing the college degree they want and the return on investment of that degree.  Honestly, I can see my husband and I giving our children a side-eye if they tell me they want a degree Asian American studies or Sociology or something. I feel like I'm going to get flamed for this but the way the system works right now I don't think all degrees are worth it for the just starting out 18/19 year old.

I haven’t read the ensuing replies; I was asleep. 
 

To be blunt, none of my kids would have been the above student, unless they had emancipated themselves from our help and advice and done that foolishness on their own. 
 

I have a friend whose daughter attended an expensive school on the other side of the country (so, add in flights/shipping/storage to the already huge expense) for a degree in elementary schooling. *I*, personally, would never endorse this for my own kids. In their case, I don’t think parents or young person hold debt, but they are pretty wealthy and there are wealthy grandparents too. So I guess their view was, we have the money, she can go wherever she wants. I don’t begrudge what other people can do but I personally would not endorse such a plan. 
 

My own daughter earned a double degree in English and French. This turned out perfect for her and she got jobs that directly applied (first, teaching English to French student; then, after Covid shut the world down, working in a bilingual law firm), but I would not have endorsed her attending some expensive OOS school for those degrees. 
 

I don’t give my kids the side-eye over their stated choices, but I do talk to them in blunt realities. Two of my kids are artists, but nobody is going to expensive art and design schools. I help them see ways they can combine their art skills with their better ROI skills. 
 

Your kids are still young; I would encourage you to keep options in mind. Don’t listen to hysterical news sources that make it seem like there’s no such thing as college graduates with no debt. I read the book Debt Free U by Zac Bissionette and, although I do not much like the author’s style, there are good ideas in there. 

[Carrie12345]

10 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

There are plenty of relatively inexpensive schools out there.  Kids do work and go to school, even if it if takes an extra year or so to get through it.  This idea that only $50k a year party schools with water parks and luxury dorms exist is just wrong.  You just have to look.  Plenty of students graduate with only modest, reasonable loans.  

Of course they exist. That’s not the same as being attainable for the majority (of degree seekers.)

I’m a college student with plenty of financial literacy and life experience trying to get qualified for the work I’m best suited for as quickly and inexpensive as possible, without debt, without concurrent employment obligations, and without daycare needs. 
It will still cost me a privileged penny that would take me decades to pay back if I didn’t have a partner who covers all of our expenses and my education costs.  
And it’s starting with about $10k/yr for community college.

[Carrie12345]

8 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Half of all student loan holders owe less than $20K, and 1/3 owe less than $10K

How many of those completed their degree?

[El...]

Some of the conclusions I'm reaching, as I'm researching everything, are:

1. The rat race for an ivy league school is a net negative for most people. A few people need to go to those schools, but most don't need those schools to be quite successful. Going to a regular non-ivy will not prevent you from getting into professional grad schools (Dr, lawyer, etc). I don't know of any career where Harvard for undergrad is the only way in the door. 

2. If you can avoid debt, you can study what you want. You won't make as much money, but live on what you make and you can be ok. 

3. If you can't pay cash, don't study art history, or anything else that has a tough financial path right out the gate.

4. If you have debt, you have GOT to finish college. Debt without the degree is the worst idea ever.  

5. The aid system is a well-run marketing racket. The schools have more data than God about you, and calibrate the aid they offer to exactly what they think you will pay. You are dealing with a system that is honed in on your psyche, so WATCH OUT. 

[Carrie12345]

4 hours ago, Shoeless said:

get the points being made about alternate pathways to a college degree. Go a few pages back and you'll see that I said we planned to utilize a combo of CLEP exams, work, community college, DE to get it done. I have tons of CLEP and DANTES exam credits, and they served me well. But they aren't easy tests. You still have to self-study the material, and the little review course from modern states is not going to be enough on its own to pass. 

My plan was to CLEP several courses. When I began studying, I quickly realized that, FOR ME, the effort was better spent, in most cases, taking 6 courses a semester instead of putting off my start and taking 4 or 5. It was easier to schedule, I’ve learned and retained more, and 6 credits costs the same as 4 and 5 in my case.

DE, CLEP, etc. are great options for my homeschooled kids because they have/will taken the place of a high school course instead of adding additional courses to their schedules.

Not every teenager is ready for that level at the otherwise most opportune time, so I happen to think it’s mean to assume 16yos should “simply” do that. I’m so very glad those options exist, but we should stop expecting kids to exceed typical development to save money.

[El...]

I'm finding that a lot of CLEP tests and APs aren't effective at our area 4 year schools. They take them...as elective credits. I've had to get pretty thorough about researching. 

[Melanie32]

 We have a local state college that is fairly affordable. My daughter is getting her AA through then and then transferring to a university to get her BA and MA, also at a fair cost. She is able to clep out of 45 credits and is doing that while at the same time taking regular classes. She is saving thousands of dollars this way. Through choosing a good but affordable school that accepts lots of clep tests she should be able to finish up with very little debt. 

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

How many of those completed their degree?

My son should graduate with less than $20k in loans.   

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

7 hours ago, Corraleno said:

But this example is proving the point that several others of us are trying to make: there are options besides "the full college experience" with huge debt. Insisting that these people chose the "most affordable" option available to them, as if their only options were no degree or $80K of debt, is just not true. There were other options, but these folks either didn't realize they existed or didn't like them. The nearest CC may have been a bit of a commute, but commuting while living at home for a year or two would still have been cheaper than 4 years on campus.

Working F/T for a year while studying for and taking CLEPs is another option — most state unis, especially less selective ones, accept enough CLEPs (and sometimes DSSTs and even ACE credits) that a student can get a year or more of college credits for the cost of a few tests — that alone could have knocked $20K off the debt, and the earnings they saved while studying for CLEP likely could have knocked off at least another $10K.

There are colleges that allow students to test out of 3+ years of credits, and tuition for the last year of classes is quite cheap. Western Governors offers many online degrees, including several BA and BS degrees in education, for a flat fee of $3800 per semester, and many students finish a degree in 3 years; that's less than $25K.

It's neither overly idealistic nor dismissive — it's literally just a statement of fact. You can get a degree from Thomas Edison State, Charter Oak State, or Excelsior College for a few thousand dollars because they let you test out of almost all classes  — and Modern States even offers free vouchers that cover the CLEP test fees if you do the (also free) prep through them. If you work at least part time for a company that reimburses tuition, you can CLEP out of a bunch of GEs for free and then get the rest of the degree covered by the employer.

None of these options are as appealing and fun as getting the full college experience while living on campus for four years, and while I am actually a big fan of the full college experience, and even believe that it may be worth going into some debt for, I don't believe it's ever worth $80K of debt unless it's for a degree that will earn a comparable salary, like CS or engineering.

So, let's look at the CC. Tuition is about $300 per credit, so that would be about $4500 per semester or $9000 per year for 15 credits. The state college these people attended was $11,000 per year for up to 18 credits. The math on tuition checks to be about the same.

From my house to the CC is 92 miles. If we say five days a week, that's 460 miles per week. Let's say that the fuel efficiency is a quarter per mile. That's $115 per week or $4140 per year in fuel. 

We're already up to $13,140. 

But there's still food to consider. Yes, ideally, people would pack a lunch, but you're still looking at around $5 a day for something decent. If we say 180 days, that's $900 per year, just for lunch, whereas the state college charged about $2000 per year for 3 meals a day.

So, now we're at about $15,000 per year, and we haven't touched fees or anything like that. Commuting also means more wear on a car, which costs money to keep going. 

It's getting closer and closer to costing the same to attend a CC or a small state college. 

We also haven't touched the opportunity cost of spending that much time commuting. That amounts to hours that could have been studying or sleeping, that were instead being spent on the road. For a good but not great student, that time could be the difference between a C getting a degree and someone's GPA not being high enough to walk the stage.

I'm sure you mean well, but you're not looking at all the facts and "hidden" costs. 

For some people, the options are not great for college. That's the cold hard truth, much as it pains us all to admit. Sometimes, instead of having people preach at them about how college is "actually" quite affordable, kids need someone to sit them down and look at all the options.

Like I said in my original comment, people aren't likely to jump on getting a college degree here. The cost-benefit ratio rarely balances, so, for us, people largely look at other options, like the vocational school or an apprenticeship. That may sit wrong with you because it's different to where you're from, but that doesn't make it wrong. 

 

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

How many of those completed their degree?

 

32 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

My son should graduate with less than $20k in loans.   

That’s not what I asked.

Some of us are trying to address the WIDE range of opportunities and barriers, while others are trying to extrapolate one scenario onto all.  
Not that anecdotes aren’t useful as examples, but context is important.

One old report comes up with 3.9 million people in student debt without finishing. No one can tell me that doesn’t play a role in the average debt held. I’m not digging very far today to answer my question, but it does matter.

[Dmmetler]

16 hours ago, AmandaVT said:

That's good to hear - the LAC I attended for my freshman year was only about partying. Almost every night, if you weren't at one of the frats, you were sitting alone in your dorm. I tried to find things to do, but there really wasn't much. I made one friend who didn't want to get blackout drunk and hook up with random people every night, but that was it. And that was all we had in common, so it wasn't a friendship that stuck. I transferred to a small state school in my home state and commuted, and had a much better experience. I played tennis, helped at the radio station, and got a job. My experience at the LAC (mid-90s) was pretty common based on my high school friends' experiences, too. 

It's definitely not the thing at my kid's school-the near campus hangouts tend to be things like ice cream and boba, and on campus gatherings aremmore likely to involve cupcakes or cookies than booze. But the only things with Greek letters attached are honor societies and the classics department, so I suspect that helps. 

[Ginevra]

23 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

For some people, the options are not great for college. That's the cold hard truth, much as it pains us all to admit. Sometimes, instead of having people preach at them about how college is "actually" quite affordable, kids need someone to sit them down and look at all the options.

Who here is saying opportunities are equal across the board? That has been acknowledged repeatedly. Does everyone have equal opportunity? No. Is there opportunity out there to be located? Yes, and that’s all I am saying. 

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, El... said:

Some of the conclusions I'm reaching, as I'm researching everything, are:

1. The rat race for an ivy league school is a net negative for most people. A few people need to go to those schools, but most don't need those schools to be quite successful. Going to a regular non-ivy will not prevent you from getting into professional grad schools (Dr, lawyer, etc). I don't know of any career where Harvard for undergrad is the only way in the door. 

2. If you can avoid debt, you can study what you want. You won't make as much money, but live on what you make and you can be ok. 

3. If you can't pay cash, don't study art history, or anything else that has a tough financial path right out the gate.

4. If you have debt, you have GOT to finish college. Debt without the degree is the worst idea ever.  

5. The aid system is a well-run marketing racket. The schools have more data than God about you, and calibrate the aid they offer to exactly what they think you will pay. You are dealing with a system that is honed in on your psyche, so WATCH OUT. 

Point 5: Especially so if your student applies to a school that requires the CS profile in addition to the usual FAFSA. It is basically a colonoscopy of your wallet.

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

21 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Who here is saying opportunities are equal across the board? That has been acknowledged repeatedly. Does everyone have equal opportunity? No. Is there opportunity out there to be located? Yes, and that’s all I am saying. 

Your comments have a tinge of "if people would just look, they would see they're wrong and can afford it." You posted an article about how people are seeing less value in a college degree, then you've argued with people who have said, "Yeah, it's not always a good option for everyone."

To me, it feels like you dug your heels in on the issue instead of stepping back and listening to others' experiences and opinions. It's great to talk about options like CC or CLEP or whatever, but if someone says, "That's doesn't work in our situation," then please respect it. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

It's definitely not the thing at my kid's school-the near campus hangouts tend to be things like ice cream and boba, and on campus gatherings aremmore likely to involve cupcakes or cookies than booze. But the only things with Greek letters attached are honor societies and the classics department, so I suspect that helps. 

The same for my youngest school. He had some vague idea that there might be a typical Greek life on campus, but no actual experiences or observations. His school though was one that students choose for the outdoor culture, the emphasis on nature. It is in an area that gets 150-200" of snow, and students enjoy showshoeing and cross country skiing to class. Surfing (yes surfing in insulated body suits on Lake Superior is a thing), canoeing, kayaking, hiking in the autumn and spring. So I think the general body of students is not a Greek life kind of body. I have found that the Greek life, party scene seems to be much worse at large, flagship schools and wealthy LACs. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Faith-manor
How and why did autocorrect change same to dame when I double checked before I posted, and why does it want to capitalize the e in the word checked?????

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

That’s not what I asked.

Some of us are trying to address the WIDE range of opportunities and barriers, while others are trying to extrapolate one scenario onto all.  
Not that anecdotes aren’t useful as examples, but context is important.

One old report comes up with 3.9 million people in student debt without finishing. No one can tell me that doesn’t play a role in the average debt held. I’m not digging very far today to answer my question, but it does matter.

My Google fu says that the average debt of “graduates who took out loans”today is about  $30k in loans.  Which of course means lots have more and lots have less.  
That figure only includes those who borrowed something, so that wouldn’t include those that borrowed 0.   The article includes a figure that 64% of students borrow something, meaning more than 30% borrow nothing and they aren’t included in that average, which I don’t really like, but it’s the figure I could find.  
It also excludes the debt if those who didn’t graduate, so they aren’t playing into that average. 
 

It’s harder to get at numbers of people who have the debt and no degree.   NYT says around 37% of kids who start don’t finish.  Obviously not all of them will have debt, but it seems likely that most of them would, especially since money plays a big part in why people quit school.   
 

Here

In 2009, about 68% of college graduates had taken on student loan debt, while in 2021 nearly 64% of graduates had borrowed, per data reported to U.S. News

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Ginevra]

1 minute ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

Your comments have a tinge of "if people would just look, they would see they're wrong and can afford it." You posted an article about how people are seeing less value in a college degree, then you've argued with people who have said, "Yeah, it's not always a good option for everyone."

To me, it feels like you dug your heels in on the issue instead of stepping back and listening to others' experiences and opinions. It's great to talk about options like CC or CLEP or whatever, but if someone says, "That's doesn't work in our situation," then please respect it. 

To me, it feels like you’ve dug in your heels on your position, which seems to be only white collar professionals should even consider college. You seem bound and determined to say normal people can’t afford college and that you’re too skint to look for a way it *might* be possible. Even your UN implies a focus on less means, what with “pennies” in it. 
 

My discussion of the article is about the big picture, not about you personally, one person on a message board I don’t know. If you can’t afford it, fine. But that doesn’t mean nobody can. 

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

16 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

To me, it feels like you’ve dug in your heels on your position, which seems to be only white collar professionals should even consider college. You seem bound and determined to say normal people can’t afford college and that you’re too skint to look for a way it *might* be possible. Even your UN implies a focus on less means, what with “pennies” in it. 
 

My discussion of the article is about the big picture, not about you personally, one person on a message board I don’t know. If you can’t afford it, fine. But that doesn’t mean nobody can. 

How adorable of you to bring my username into this. Do you think that's some sort of "gotcha?"

I didn't take your comments personally. I just don't find them in the spirit of discussion. 

For the record, I don't think white collar professionals are the only people who should send their kids to college, if there's an affordable option for that family and college is a good fit for that child. But I do think that a lot of people never consider an alternative to a four-year degree and end up making decisions they regret because of it. 

[catz]

55 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Point 5: Especially so if your student applies to a school that requires the CS profile in addition to the usual FAFSA. It is basically a colonoscopy of your wallet.

This.  I will also say an independant financial advisor recommended we pay less than half what CSS schools said we could with 2 kids, years to retirement, etc.  Just because a school's calculator punches out a number doesn't mean it is actually realistic to your on the ground financial situation.  

My kids options were limited by finances for sure.  Which is fine and normal and I am happy for the options that they do have.  That said, sick of people buying in and touting the marketing about how generous high end privates are.  They enroll relatively small numbers of pell eligble students, they don't track private loans, plenty of middle america can't afford them at all, the opportunities are very limited and competitive.   Our local CC is 70% pell and totally free for those students.  One  first gen, low income kid her just did a 2 year transfer to MIT .  I was inspired by a lot of stories that came out of that program even though yes, students do drop out or take classes very slowly.  

Edited September 10, 2023 by catz

[historically accurate]

16 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

How adorable of you to bring my username into this. Do you think that's some sort of "gotcha?"

I didn't take your comments personally. I just don't find them in the spirit of discussion. 

For the record, I don't think white collar professionals are the only people who should send their kids to college, if there's an affordable option for that family and college is a good fit for that child. But I do think that a lot of people never consider an alternative to a four-year degree and end up making decisions they regret because of it. 

I think that this feeling goes both ways. I think that a lot of people never consider a four-year degree (in any manner of achieving that (2+2, CLEP, online, tuition reimbursement, etc)) and end up making decisions they regret because of it.

There are a lot of young adults in college who may not be best served, both financially and academically, by being there. There are a lot of young adults who never consider college to be for them who may have missed one of their best opportunities for personal fulfillment and wealth-building. 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by historically accurate

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

So, let's look at the CC. Tuition is about $300 per credit, so that would be about $4500 per semester or $9000 per year for 15 credits. The state college these people attended was $11,000 per year for up to 18 credits. The math on tuition checks to be about the same.

From my house to the CC is 92 miles. If we say five days a week, that's 460 miles per week. Let's say that the fuel efficiency is a quarter per mile. That's $115 per week or $4140 per year in fuel. 

We're already up to $13,140. 

But there's still food to consider. Yes, ideally, people would pack a lunch, but you're still looking at around $5 a day for something decent. If we say 180 days, that's $900 per year, just for lunch, whereas the state college charged about $2000 per year for 3 meals a day.

So, now we're at about $15,000 per year, and we haven't touched fees or anything like that. Commuting also means more wear on a car, which costs money to keep going. 

It's getting closer and closer to costing the same to attend a CC or a small state college. 

We also haven't touched the opportunity cost of spending that much time commuting. That amounts to hours that could have been studying or sleeping, that were instead being spent on the road. For a good but not great student, that time could be the difference between a C getting a degree and someone's GPA not being high enough to walk the stage.

I'm sure you mean well, but you're not looking at all the facts and "hidden" costs. 

For some people, the options are not great for college. That's the cold hard truth, much as it pains us all to admit. Sometimes, instead of having people preach at them about how college is "actually" quite affordable, kids need someone to sit them down and look at all the options.

Like I said in my original comment, people aren't likely to jump on getting a college degree here. The cost-benefit ratio rarely balances, so, for us, people largely look at other options, like the vocational school or an apprenticeship. That may sit wrong with you because it's different to where you're from, but that doesn't make it wrong. 

 

Looking at vocational schools and apprenticeships is not at all what "sits wrong with me" — I'm totally on board with that, and it's basically what one of my own kids is doing. My only argument here is with the idea that there are huge swaths of the US population where the only options are taking on crippling lifelong debt for an on campus degree or going into trades.

Even in the example you gave, spending $15K/yr on CC instead of $25K/yr for the first 2 years knocks $20K off the total debt. You really can't bring up the "opportunity cost" of time spent commuting without offsetting that against the opportunity cost of starting a low-paying career $80,000 in debt.

Getting a year's worth of credits through free CLEP tests while working full time and then doing one year at CC would cover most of the first two years and reduce the total debt to a much more manageable $40-45K. Getting an education degree through Western Governors would have brought the total cost down to $25-30K, and subtracting the $5K/yr that these people seem to have covered with cash, that leaves total loans of $5-10K. 

If you're saying that the folks with $80K in debt would have been better off with some kind of vocational program or internship, then I don't disagree — assuming that they would have been equally happy with an alternative career. But if they love teaching and feel like it's their calling, then there absolutely were other options that would have allowed them to get a teaching degree with WAY less debt than $80K, even if those options were less appealing and less convenient. I can think of few things less appealing and convenient than being saddled with crippling debt for the rest of my adult life.

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

So, let's look at the CC. Tuition is about $300 per credit, so that would be about $4500 per semester or $9000 per year for 15 credits. The state college these people attended was $11,000 per year for up to 18 credits. The math on tuition checks to be about the same.

From my house to the CC is 92 miles. If we say five days a week, that's 460 miles per week. Let's say that the fuel efficiency is a quarter per mile. That's $115 per week or $4140 per year in fuel. 

We're already up to $13,140. 

But there's still food to consider. Yes, ideally, people would pack a lunch, but you're still looking at around $5 a day for something decent. If we say 180 days, that's $900 per year, just for lunch, whereas the state college charged about $2000 per year for 3 meals a day.

So, now we're at about $15,000 per year, and we haven't touched fees or anything like that. Commuting also means more wear on a car, which costs money to keep going. 

It's getting closer and closer to costing the same to attend a CC or a small state college. 

We also haven't touched the opportunity cost of spending that much time commuting. That amounts to hours that could have been studying or sleeping, that were instead being spent on the road. For a good but not great student, that time could be the difference between a C getting a degree and someone's GPA not being high enough to walk the stage.

I'm sure you mean well, but you're not looking at all the facts and "hidden" costs. 

For some people, the options are not great for college. That's the cold hard truth, much as it pains us all to admit. Sometimes, instead of having people preach at them about how college is "actually" quite affordable, kids need someone to sit them down and look at all the options.

Like I said in my original comment, people aren't likely to jump on getting a college degree here. The cost-benefit ratio rarely balances, so, for us, people largely look at other options, like the vocational school or an apprenticeship. That may sit wrong with you because it's different to where you're from, but that doesn't make it wrong. 

 

This is so individual.   Our local CC is not that far off in cost from yours.  But the public Uni in the same city's tuition is almost twice that.  It's also easier here to get CC credits cheaper, esp. if you're a non-traditional student.  My kids did DE, which was 50% off per-credit at the CC (so 1/4 of the public Uni per credit).  My state just passed free tuition at CC for anyone over 25 that doesn't already have a degree.  One of my kids wants to go to get an NP degree and it's a no-brainer to take the missing pre-reqs for half the price per credit at CC.  

I've become a big CC fan, have to say.  But as I said, I know the situation varies widely from place to place.

[SKL]

I definitely agree that high school students and their families would benefit from more transparency regarding the true cost of a college education, including all the realistic options by location.  How can that be achieved?

Personally, if I had to choose between modest student debt and not accessing higher education (assuming interest and aptitude), I would choose modest debt.  I'd pick a "cheaper" option and suck it up.

I don't think education needs to be free in order to be "worth it."  I also don't think the value of an education increases proportionate to how much it costs.

[Lilaclady]

12 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

This is so individual.   Our local CC is not that far off in cost from yours.  

I've become a big CC fan, have to say.  But as I said, I know the situation varies widely from place to place.

I agree. Our local cc is about $100 per credit so even cheaper. High school students can also often get better rates with dual enrollment at ASU or Grand Canyon or some other colleges but that is if the student can do well with online learning. 
I think one of the things I have been a bit perplexed about here in the states is the number of parents who won’t put in the effort to research and find out -cost of college, what ways they can afford it or not, alternative for their students or even guiding them to productive careers. I did not get my first degree here and have been surprised at the number of college educated homeschooling moms that had no idea about  Clep, dual enrollment or AP’s and just assumed they can’t afford college and that is that. I feel more parents can and should also let their kids know from an earlier age, how much they can realistically afford and if they can’t they should guide their kids to exploring feasible options. That is one area I really respect 8filltheheart’s knowledge on this board. 

[SKL]

I looked into our CC cost, and if I'm doing the math right, it looks like we could save $9K-$12K per kid by completing general courses at CC and then transferring to our modest state uni.

Since I do have some money saved for my kids' education, I decided to go with the state uni from day one, because I feel like there would be value added in the continuity and more flexibility should one of my kids decide to transfer to a more selective uni.

But it's good to know there is another truly affordable option in our county.

(We definitely won't qualify for government-subsidized aid and aren't expecting any scholarship offers, based on my tax returns and my kids' carefree attitude toward school.)

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

This is so individual.   Our local CC is not that far off in cost from yours.  But the public Uni in the same city's tuition is almost twice that.  It's also easier here to get CC credits cheaper, esp. if you're a non-traditional student.  My kids did DE, which was 50% off per-credit at the CC (so 1/4 of the public Uni per credit).  My state just passed free tuition at CC for anyone over 25 that doesn't already have a degree.  One of my kids wants to go to get an NP degree and it's a no-brainer to take the missing pre-reqs for half the price per credit at CC.  

I've become a big CC fan, have to say.  But as I said, I know the situation varies widely from place to place.

We have a really good, extensive CC system here that is $138 per credit, and free for students with at least a 2.0 GPA who start CC classes in the fall semester following HS graduation. They also accept a lot of CLEPs and transfer credits, and they gave DD full course credit (not just elective credit) for 3 ASU Universal Learner courses.

Many CCs in the US offer online classes to nonresidents for the same price as residents, or for less than CC classes in some of the more expensive systems. For example, a lot of people who are doing online degrees through TESC/Charter Oak/Excelsior take classes through Clovis CC in NM, which is only $111/credit for out of district. And there are places like Santa Fe CC that only charge $61/credit for out of district as long as you only take 6 credits (take 7 or more credits and the cost goes up to $111/credit — still a bargain for many students).

There's a good list of cheap online course options, along with lots of info on other options like CLEP/DSST/ACE on the Degree Forums site, e.g.: https://degreeforum.miraheze.org/wiki/Sources_of_Credit#Examples_of_Colleges_Offering_Distance_Learning_Courses

[SKL]

19 minutes ago, Lilaclady said:

I think one of the things I have been a bit perplexed about here in the states is the number of parents who won’t put in the effort to research and find out -cost of college, what ways they can afford it or not, alternative for their students or even guiding them to productive careers. I did not get my first degree here and have been surprised at the number of college educated homeschooling moms that had no idea about  Clep, dual enrollment or AP’s and just assumed they can’t afford college and that is that. I feel more parents can and should also let their kids know from an earlier age, how much they can realistically afford and if they can’t they should guide their kids to exploring feasible options. That is one area I really respect 8filltheheart’s knowledge on this board. 

I think there's been an expectation that college access would at least not decrease over our lifetimes, you know?  It is true that college was more affordable in our generation.  My family was seriously broke, so I had to take out student loans to the maximum, but my loans for my whole undergrad were only $10K, which covered tuition, fees, books, supplies, and some room & board.  So let's say the tuition part of that was $9K, or $2,250 per year.  At average inflation, one would expect today's tuition to be about $6,000 per year at the same undergrad university I went to, but actually the cost is more than double that.  I've been watching this for a while, but not everyone has.

I used to say with confidence that this was such an obvious crisis that it would have been at least partly addressed by the time my kids go to college.  Now they are 16 and ... well, I think the pendulum has swung back some, but not enough.

Edited September 10, 2023 by SKL

[KungFuPanda]

17 hours ago, AmandaVT said:

That's good to hear - the LAC I attended for my freshman year was only about partying. Almost every night, if you weren't at one of the frats, you were sitting alone in your dorm. I tried to find things to do, but there really wasn't much. I made one friend who didn't want to get blackout drunk and hook up with random people every night, but that was it. And that was all we had in common, so it wasn't a friendship that stuck. I transferred to a small state school in my home state and commuted, and had a much better experience. I played tennis, helped at the radio station, and got a job. My experience at the LAC (mid-90s) was pretty common based on my high school friends' experiences, too. 

I went to a "party and football" school and never attended a single party or a game.  I never ran out of things to do even though I was a nontraditional, married student who lived off-campus and wasn't in the position to make friends as easily as an 18-year-old freshman.  Nobody is going to really experience anything if they don't leave their room.  That's true at home and at school.  

 

17 hours ago, Ginevra said:

That’s true but the flip side of that is that careers without degrees often reach ceiling fast, so at, say, 26 yo, the non degree worker may appear to be making out better but at 46, the degree holder may have increased far beyond the non degree holder. 

I'm pretty sure this is exactly what that Life game was trying to teach us.

 

16 hours ago, SKL said:

The cost of near but off-campus housing will be inflated by the cost of dorm housing.  The same quality of place would be way cheaper anywhere else.  I blame whoever is pricing the dorms for that.

I think it's just priced at what the market will bear.  If your school is in an HCOL area, on campus housing is likely more affordable.  This was true for my daughter.  Dh and I went to a University in a LCOL area and we rented a 3 bedroom house for less than the dorms would cost us.  (Not that there were any married student dorms)

 

14 hours ago, SKL said:

The elite ivory towers are definitely where leftist ideologies flourish.  It's also easier to convince people who've never been hungry that the working class needs/wants xyz BS.

The vast majority of college students are not rich.  They're middle class or poor and figuring it out like everyone else.  At least now everyone has the internet and doesn't have to rely on a guidance counselor and a few brochures.

 

13 hours ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

Eh, the graduates I know are mostly the teachers making $30,000 a year and owing $80,000 at the end of it. 

$80k is a lot of debt.  However, even IF you become a teacher and borrow every bit of the money for your education, you can't really ONLY look at starting pay.  First of all, teachers in my area start out over 60k, not 30.  Secondly, they have excellent job security, good benefits, and a few months out of the year where they can supplement that income if they want to.  They can knock that total down to closer to 50k if they do two years of CC before transferring and knock it down more if they work over the summer and don't borrow the full amount, or participate in work study programs.  

I think the whole attitude of "I wouldn't let my kid be a teacher" is elitist.  The work matters and we need smart people doing it.  If the shortage continues, society is going to have to step up and subsidize these degrees so we can fill these jobs.  We're also going to have to make these jobs more humane for the teachers, but that's a whole 'nother conversation.

[Dmmetler]

I don’t think the dorms are inflating the cost of housing near my kid’s school. It’s a historic district in a commuter suburb of a major city. Not many houses within walking distance compared to areas where they can build apartments, houses can’t be modified in ways that make them better for multi-tenant rentals, and it’s unlikely they’d be rented out at all. If there weren’t campus housing, students just plain wouldn’t have housing at all. 
 

Schools without dorms or with not enough dorms tend to have lots of apartments right off campus that serve the same purpose, but are privately funded. It’s still housing built for that purpose.

[TechWife]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:37 PM, Heartstrings said:

I was thinking about that this weekend, listening to someone with a college degree and a good job complain that UPS drivers make as much money as him.   I reminded him that supply and demand come into play with labor too.  There are more people with college degrees in engineering than people willing to deliver my Amazon packages, so the delivery driver gets a boost in pay.  

But a college graduate  is “supposed” to make more than a delivery driver, it upsets the apple cart when that’s not true.   It breaks part of the social contract.  

Capitalism is our current default social contract, so it is actually in line with the social contract, people just don’t recognize it as such. I think they’re really bothered by the fact that people in professions, like UPS drivers and their unions have used capitalism to their own advantage instead of bowing to others so they can benefit from more from capitalism than the drivers do.

Maybe looking at the economy with such a narrow definition of what an economy is supposed to look like is one of the problems. Sometimes pure capitalism doesn’t work (think about our highway system or utilities). Taxes are needed to supplement the cost of roads because not everyone who needs a road can afford to buy one. Price & safety regulation on utilities is needed because the general public would have no services due to the expense or unsafe services if capitalism driven by supply vs. demand is the only consideration. 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Ginevra said:

To me, it feels like you’ve dug in your heels on your position, which seems to be only white collar professionals should even consider college. You seem bound and determined to say normal people can’t afford college and that you’re too skint to look for a way it *might* be possible. Even your UN implies a focus on less means, what with “pennies” in it. 
 

My discussion of the article is about the big picture, not about you personally, one person on a message board I don’t know. If you can’t afford it, fine. But that doesn’t mean nobody can. 

I haven’t noticed a “normal people can’t “ vibe, but MANY people can’t without going into a field they might not want or sacrificing what used to be a basic lifestyle in order to make their chosen career work.  
Or both.

 

[AmandaVT]

15 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I went to a "party and football" school and never attended a single party or a game.  I never ran out of things to do even though I was a nontraditional, married student who lived off-campus and wasn't in the position to make friends as easily as an 18-year-old freshman.  Nobody is going to really experience anything if they don't leave their room.  That's true at home and at school.  

I promise I left my room. 😁 I believe the issues with the school I attended may have been a combination of extremely prevalent Greek life - almost everyone rushed- and the wealthiness of many of the students that attended. I received a generous scholarship that paid for almost my entire tuition, but many many kids were from very wealthy families. Wednesday-Saturday nights were all about parties everywhere - many of them in the frat houses. Every weekend, some drunk idiot would pull a fire alarm in one of the dorms, and we'd have to stand outside in the middle of the night waiting on the fire department. Monday morning class conversations would be about how many different people each student hooked up with over the weekend. It was gross. I believe they've cracked down a little bit on the partying based on my googling, but it's still known as a party school. I was the first in my family to go to college and there wasn't much of an internet in 1995, so I was unaware of the reputation of the school prior to attending. 

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Capitalism is our current default social contract, so it is actually in line with the social contract, people just don’t recognize it as such. I think they’re really bothered by the fact that people in professions, like UPS drivers and their unions have used capitalism to their own advantage instead of bowing to others so they can benefit from more from capitalism than the drivers do.

Maybe looking at the economy with such a narrow definition of what an economy is supposed to look like is one of the problems. Sometimes pure capitalism doesn’t work (think about our highway system or utilities). Taxes are needed to supplement the cost of roads because not everyone who needs a road can afford to buy one. Price & safety regulation on utilities is needed because the general public would have no services due to the expense or unsafe services if capitalism driven by supply vs. demand is the only consideration. 

Yes!  So much this. People don’t understand, or at least don’t like, that supply and demand apply to labor as well.   
 

I could say a lot more but I don’t want to derail the whole thread.  I honestly don’t think the average person in this country understands the basics of supply and demand or the free market, at least not based on the comments I hear on a regular basis.  

Edited September 10, 2023 by Heartstrings

[TechWife]

On 9/6/2023 at 10:40 PM, prairiewindmomma said:

As a total aside, I think it’s worth looking at how bodies fail in any given profession. Dentists struggle with low back pain and neck pain. Repetitive stress injury is an issue in many, many fields…not just blue collar ones.

This, exactly. There are also routine risks when you depend on your body for work. My orthodontist broke her wrist and it sidelined her for months and she also had to argue with her insurance company to get enough PT & OT covered to restore her to her previous level of functioning. 

[Carrie12345]

35 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

$80k is a lot of debt.  However, even IF you become a teacher and borrow every bit of the money for your education, you can't really ONLY look at starting pay.  First of all, teachers in my area start out over 60k, not 30.  Secondly, they have excellent job security, good benefits, and a few months out of the year where they can supplement that income if they want to.  They can knock that total down to closer to 50k if they do two years of CC before transferring and knock it down more if they work over the summer and don't borrow the full amount, or participate in work study programs.  

I think the whole attitude of "I wouldn't let my kid be a teacher" is elitist.  The work matters and we need smart people doing it.  If the shortage continues, society is going to have to step up and subsidize these degrees so we can fill these jobs.  We're also going to have to make these jobs more humane for the teachers, but that's a whole 'nother conversation.

More humane and, in most cases, better paying.

Dd’s career qualifications have cost her $0. Her advanced training will cost her little, if anything. But her income after 3 years plus experience before that is about that of a starting teacher, so long as she works overtime and differentials. She MIGHT reach the median income for our area eventually… if she includes overtime and differentials with advanced training. And she might do fine renting an apartment in a crummy area with a meh car, no debt, no kids, and no dogs because of the combination of schedule and salary. But she has job security!

School loans are only part of the equation.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Lilaclady said:

I think one of the things I have been a bit perplexed about here in the states is the number of parents who won’t put in the effort to research and find out -cost of college, what ways they can afford it or not, alternative for their students or even guiding them to productive careers. I did not get my first degree here and have been surprised at the number of college educated homeschooling moms that had no idea about  Clep, dual enrollment or AP’s and just assumed they can’t afford college and that is that. I feel more parents can and should also let their kids know from an earlier age, how much they can realistically afford and if they can’t they should guide their kids to exploring feasible options. That is one area I really respect 8filltheheart’s knowledge on this board. 

This. There are so many more options in that middle space between no college and college with crippling debt.

I have a relative who did not even do the college prep version of HS, worked a few years after graduation, and then got married and had kids. Two of her kids are special needs and she had to spend so much time and energy doing her own research and advocacy that she decided to get a degree and help other people in her position. She remediated the gaps on her own, did some CLEPS, got her bachelors online very cheaply through TESC, and then went on to get a graduate degree in special ed — all while parenting special needs kids. It was HARD, but she did it.

My DD gets up at 2 AM to get to work at 3 AM, works till noon at a warehouse job (for $24/hr), comes home and naps for a few hours, then does her online courses. She's been taking 2 courses at a time, and even though she does better in-person than online, she's been making it work. She's about to start a full time program on campus and will have to cut back her work hours to part-time. So far she's taken 10 courses to fulfill the GenEds and pre-requisites for her program, at a total cost of ~$5000, which she could easily have covered herself from her earnings (although I'm paying for the courses and encouraging her to bank as much money as possible). If she wanted to get an AA instead, she could continue to work F/T while taking classes P/T and she'd have an AA with zero debt and enough saved to cover a sizable chunk of a BA at one of the state unis.

Both of these people are average intelligence and were honestly kind of slackers in HS with little interest in further education, who later changed their minds and decided to pursue a career that required more education. Yes it's hard work, it's not remotely as fun as going off to college and living in dorms, but in both cases they found a way to get the career they want at a really low cost with excellent ROI.

Maybe there are a handful of people out there who do not live anywhere near a CC and nowhere near any employers who offer tuition reimbursement and cannot live at home while studying and cannot handle even asynchronous at-your-own-pace classes and are simply not capable of studying for CLEPs or DSSTs — for those people, going directly to work certainly seems like the best option. For people who have no interest in college and want to go to work in jobs that don't require degrees, then going directly to work or into an apprenticeship or something, certainly seems like the best option.

But please don't tell kids who DO want to get a college degree that a college education is totally off the table because mom and dad can't afford a 4 year on-campus degree and there are no other options.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Corraleno

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

Maybe looking at the economy with such a narrow definition of what an economy is supposed to look like is one of the problems. Sometimes pure capitalism doesn’t work (think about our highway system or utilities). Taxes are needed to supplement the cost of roads because not everyone who needs a road can afford to buy one. Price & safety regulation on utilities is needed because the general public would have no services due to the expense or unsafe services if capitalism driven by supply vs. demand is the only consideration. 

From an economic standpoint, the reason that roads are generally funded by tax revenue is not because some people can't afford to buy one--it is because roads are what economists call "public goods"--one person's use of the good does not preclude another person's use of the good and it is difficult to prevent people from using the good if they do not pay for the good.  And the economic reason for price regulation of public utilities is because it is a an industry that generally has high fixed costs and low variable costs, making having a number of providers who compete not possible; this leads to a naturally monopolistic industry.

[Frances]

4 hours ago, tooelitistformegoeleswhere said:

Like I said in my original comment, people aren't likely to jump on getting a college degree here. The cost-benefit ratio rarely balances, so, for us, people largely look at other options, like the vocational school or an apprenticeship. That may sit wrong with you because it's different to where you're from, but that doesn't make it wrong. 

 

Personally, I think vocational programs or apprenticeships can be much better options than college for many students. I think college and the college prep curriculum has been over emphasized for years. At least where I live, I’m very glad to see the pendulum has swung back and my very large school district now has an excellent votech program which has really helped increase our dismal high school graduation rates. I’m curious though about the cost of votech school where you live. Here votech happens at CC, so it is the same price. The only savings is that it doesn’t take four years.

My only caution is that if a student really wants to go to college to fulfill their career goals and especially if they are a strong student who tests well, parents need to carefully explore options, include privates that might have seemingly outrageous sticker prices, because there is good financial and/or scholarship aid out there for some students.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, catz said:

This.  I will also say an independant financial advisor recommended we pay less than half what CSS schools said we could with 2 kids, years to retirement, etc.  Just because a school's calculator punches out a number doesn't mean it is actually realistic to your on the ground financial situation.  

My kids options were limited by finances for sure.  Which is fine and normal and I am happy for the options that they do have.  That said, sick of people buying in and touting the marketing about how generous high end privates are.  They enroll relatively small numbers of pell eligble students, they don't track private loans, plenty of middle america can't afford them at all, the opportunities are very limited and competitive.   Our local CC is 70% pell and totally free for those students.  One  first gen, low income kid her just did a 2 year transfer to MIT .  I was inspired by a lot of stories that came out of that program even though yes, students do drop out or take classes very slowly.  

Some of the top schools in the country actively seek CC grads. One of my son’s homeschooled friends went from the local CC during high school (earned AA) to an Ivy  and got full FA for four years due to her single mom’s limited resources. She was their for four years after CC because her specialized major needed four years to complete.

My advisor in grad school was the first in his family to go to college and started out at his local CC. His profs recognized how gifted he was and helped him when it was time to transfer. He went to in-state state schools for both the rest of his undergrad and his PhD and ended up a professor at an Ivy where he still is today.

Over the years, I’ve had several coworkers with advanced degrees and very successful careers who started at CC for a variety of reasons.

[regentrude]

7 hours ago, El... said:

I'm finding that a lot of CLEP tests and APs aren't effective at our area 4 year schools. They take them...as elective credits. I've had to get pretty thorough about researching. 

Yes, always check with the prospective target schools before investing in tests if the goal is transfer credit. The registrar's websites should have tables where you can look up what course credits are given for what scores, as well as what courses are required for any specific degree. 

[regentrude]

7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

How many of those completed their degree?

I don't see how low debt would have any relevance for degree completion. Students with small debt include all those with families who have them take the subsidized federal loans and pay for the rest of the cost (or even pay off the loans afterwards)

[Frances]

2 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think the whole attitude of "I wouldn't let my kid be a teacher" is elitist.  The work matters and we need smart people doing it.  If the shortage continues, society is going to have to step up and subsidize these degrees so we can fill these jobs.  We're also going to have to make these jobs more humane for the teachers, but that's a whole 'nother conversation.

So much this! My niece knew for a long time she wanted to be a teacher. But she also knew she didn’t want to major in education in undergrad because there were so many other things she wanted to study and she also definitely wanted the full college on-campus experience. Fortunately, she was an excellent student who tested well and had a knowledgeable mom and aunt (me) which was needed because she had a terrible high school guidance counselor.

She ended up at an elite LAC with top scholarships and financial aid (they even agreed to not count her estranged dad’s income and assets) and worked incredibly hard both academically and work wise while being very careful with $. Like my son’s experience, she found LACs outside of her geographic area to be much more generous with aid, but she wanted to be in the PNW near us anyway, so it was no sacrifice for her to leave the Midwest for college. She graduated Phi Beta Kappa with no debt but an absolutely wonderful college experience with two STEM majors.
 

After teaching English abroad for several years, she just started a fully paid teaching residency program in one of the largest school districts in the country. She will work (with pay and benefits) in the classroom almost full time with a mentor teacher while simultaneously earning her Master’s degree in one year. She will have to remain teaching in the district for four years after her Master’s degree (or repay the education cost), but they will provide her with extra support and mentoring as a new teacher during those four years.

She is constantly being told by others that she is “too smart” and “too talented” to be a public school teacher. And my thought is, who do people who think like this want teaching their children and grandchildren if not someone like my niece?

Edited September 10, 2023 by Frances

[Ginevra]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I haven’t noticed a “normal people can’t “ vibe, but MANY people can’t without going into a field they might not want or sacrificing what used to be a basic lifestyle in order to make their chosen career work.  
Or both.

 

Can you speak more about this? I haven’t noticed a lot of concern among college grads that they can’t make it work or can’t do the work they wish. 

[Corraleno]

26 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Yes, always check with the prospective target schools before investing in tests if the goal is transfer credit. The registrar's websites should have tables where you can look up what course credits are given for what scores, as well as what courses are required for any specific degree. 

Also, in some cases the CC may accept more CLEPs than the 4 yr state schools, and then the state schools will accept an AA Transfer degree as a "block" that's worth 2 yrs of credits and fulfill all GenEds, so that can be a sort of "back door" way to use CLEP credits towards a 4 yr degree. 

It's also worth looking into how many generic elective credits a degree allows for at the target school(s), because even CLEP and ASU/UL credits that "only" count as general electives can shave a semester or so off of a 4-yr degree.

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

This. There are so many more options in that middle space between no college and college with crippling debt.

I have a relative who did not even do the college prep version of HS, worked a few years after graduation, and then got married and had kids. Two of her kids are special needs and she had to spend so much time and energy doing her own research and advocacy that she decided to get a degree and help other people in her position. She remediated the gaps on her own, did some CLEPS, got her bachelors online very cheaply through TESC, and then went on to get a graduate degree in special ed — all while parenting special needs kids. It was HARD, but she did it.

My DD gets up at 2 AM to get to work at 3 AM, works till noon at a warehouse job (for $24/hr), comes home and naps for a few hours, then does her online courses. She's been taking 2 courses at a time, and even though she does better in-person than online, she's been making it work. She's about to start a full time program on campus and will have to cut back her work hours to part-time. So far she's taken 10 courses to fulfill the GenEds and pre-requisites for her program, at a total cost of ~$5000, which she could easily have covered herself from her earnings (although I'm paying for the courses and encouraging her to bank as much money as possible). If she wanted to get an AA instead, she could continue to work F/T while taking classes P/T and she'd have an AA with zero debt and enough saved to cover a sizable chunk of a BA at one of the state unis.

Both of these people are average intelligence and were honestly kind of slackers in HS with little interest in further education, who later changed their minds and decided to pursue a career that required more education. Yes it's hard work, it's not remotely as fun as going off to college and living in dorms, but in both cases they found a way to get the career they want at a really low cost with excellent ROI.

Maybe there are a handful of people out there who do not live anywhere near a CC and nowhere near any employers who offer tuition reimbursement and cannot live at home while studying and cannot handle even asynchronous at-your-own-pace classes and are simply not capable of studying for CLEPs or DSSTs — for those people, going directly to work certainly seems like the best option. For people who have no interest in college and want to go to work in jobs that don't require degrees, then going directly to work or into an apprenticeship or something, certainly seems like the best option.

But please don't tell kids who DO want to get a college degree that a college education is totally off the table because mom and dad can't afford a 4 year on-campus degree and there are no other options.

Where there is a will, there is a way.  I chuckle at my niece visiting prospective colleges two years before she even plans to go.  They have oodles of money, and all she wants to do is go out of state because she doesn't want to live in Illinois.  She's gone from wanting to go to Florida to touring schools in Wisconsin.  I'm not sure why Illinois is so terrible compared to those two states.  She couldn't even articulate what kind of state she hoped to live in or why.  I reminded her Wisconsin is cold in the winter, haha!  We won't be spending money on tours because Little Johnny just wants to live someplace else for no reason, lol.  

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Can you speak more about this? I haven’t noticed a lot of concern among college grads that they can’t make it work or can’t do the work they wish. 

I can't speak for Carrie, but I read her comment as referring to the idea that college is so expensive now that many people who might really love to study something like literature or art or history, end up feeling like they have to choose a more practical major that will lead to a higher paying job, whether they like it or not, in order to justify the cost of college. So for example someone good at math who might have liked to become a teacher may decide to get an accounting degree instead, or someone who loves literature and writing may opt for a marketing degree, because they feel that the ROI on a  degree in a less lucrative field will not be worth it.

And I agree that it's a really unfortunate result of the skyrocketing costs and lack of public funding for higher education. When I went to college, you could get a degree in pretty much whatever you wanted to study, for a really reasonable cost, and it made sense financially even if you ended up in a career that was only marginally related. But now  I see a lot of people insisting that college is simply "not worth it" unless it's for a practical degree with a high starting salary. And I think the result of that is often people either giving up on a career they would have loved and/or being stuck in a career they never wanted because they feel like there's no other affordable option.

Ironically, one of DS's friends, who spent 5 yrs getting an engineering degree, recently decided he hated it and is now getting credentialed to become a HS math teacher. It would have saved him a whole lot of time and money if he had just gone with his gut to begin with instead of listening to parents and guidance counselors who insisted that putting his excellent math skills to use with an engineering degree was the only sensible choice.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Corraleno
so many typos!

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I don't see how low debt would have any relevance for degree completion. Students with small debt include all those with families who have them take the subsidized federal loans and pay for the rest of the cost (or even pay off the loans afterwards)

My question referred to the average amount of student debt held. The total amount of debt held includes the many people who didn’t finish. So, I held several hundred dollars in student debt in the 90s for the 1 semester I attended. Enough examples like mine would substantially lower the average, making that average a lousy representation of what college graduates may be coping with.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Also, in some cases the CC may accept more CLEPs than the 4 yr state schools, and then the state schools will accept an AA Transfer degree as a "block" that's worth 2 yrs of credits and fulfill all GenEds, so that can be a sort of "back door" way to use CLEP credits towards a 4 yr degree. 

It's also worth looking into how many generic elective credits a degree allows for at the target school(s), because even CLEP and ASU/UL credits that "only" count as general electives can shave a semester or so off of a 4-yr degree.

All of this. And this is a good time for me to repeat the PSA I have made before on this board:
if a student is interested in a STEM degree with highly sequenced classes, taking all the gen eds for two years at CC will NOT shorten their time at the four-year university unless they also take the introductory math and science courses scheduled for the first two years required for their major at the four-year uni.
Every year I have transfer students who are disappointed to find that, despite having oodles of gen ed credits, they start with the same math and science courses as the incoming freshmen and are lucky if we can find a way to save them a semester. And it is even worse if those students come in with weak math that does not prepare them for placement in calculus 1 - they then have to find random classes they don't need to get up to full-time student status, because they don't have the prerequisite for anything pertaining to their major, since they took all their English and social sciences already.

CC can be a great way to save money if done right, but it requires thorough research.

Edited September 10, 2023 by regentrude

[catz]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

if a student is interested in a STEM degree with highly sequenced classes, taking all the gen eds for two years at CC will NOT shorten their time at the four-year university unless they also take the introductory math and science courses scheduled for the first two years of their major at the four-year uni.

I personally think CC is a great path.  Both my kids had a great experience dual enrolling at urban community colleges and they far exceeded expectations.  Some of the teachers were teaching the same classes at $$$$$ schools in our metro.

 But if you want to get through in 4 years, you need to pick your degree and research articulation paths ahead of time.  Some of our local CCs DO have 4 year paths through engineering or STEM degrees.   You start and finish at a very particular list of programs.   But if you spend 2 years taking random gen eds, that won't guarentee the end of any degree at 4 years for sure.  

Our CCs are free for low and moderate income students and do have good supports in place.  

[Clarita]

I just read the article. 

While as the system stands now I have a very hard time suggesting to anyone to go to college just to have a low paying job at the end. I want to be very clear also as a part of that I think it is pertinent as a society to subsidize people in obtaining higher education in non money making fields. Even more so for public good fields such as teaching. Do I think that should fall on an individual or an individual family? No I do not. 

I worked fulltime while getting my masters. It breaks my heart to ask a young person to work fulltime and while getting their bachelors so they can make these ends meet.  

5 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think the whole attitude of "I wouldn't let my kid be a teacher" is elitist.  The work matters and we need smart people doing it.  If the shortage continues, society is going to have to step up and subsidize these degrees so we can fill these jobs.  We're also going to have to make these jobs more humane for the teachers, but that's a whole 'nother conversation.

I think we should make these jobs more humane before we ask people to push their children to be teachers. I do believe there are places in this world (and definitely historically in some places) where being a teacher is actually a really good job.