How adorable of you to bring my username into this. Do you think that's some sort of "gotcha?" I didn't take your comments personally. I just don't find them in the spirit of discussion. For the record, I don't think white collar professionals are the only people who should send their kids to college, if there's an affordable option for that family and college is a good fit for that child. But I do think that a lot of people never consider an alternative to a four-year degree and end up making decisions they regret because of it.

Your comments have a tinge of "if people would just look, they would see they're wrong and can afford it." You posted an article about how people are seeing less value in a college degree, then you've argued with people who have said, "Yeah, it's not always a good option for everyone." To me, it feels like you dug your heels in on the issue instead of stepping back and listening to others' experiences and opinions. It's great to talk about options like CC or CLEP or whatever, but if someone says, "That's doesn't work in our situation," then please respect it.

So, let's look at the CC. Tuition is about $300 per credit, so that would be about $4500 per semester or $9000 per year for 15 credits. The state college these people attended was $11,000 per year for up to 18 credits. The math on tuition checks to be about the same. From my house to the CC is 92 miles. If we say five days a week, that's 460 miles per week. Let's say that the fuel efficiency is a quarter per mile. That's $115 per week or $4140 per year in fuel. We're already up to $13,140. But there's still food to consider. Yes, ideally, people would pack a lunch, but you're still looking at around $5 a day for something decent. If we say 180 days, that's $900 per year, just for lunch, whereas the state college charged about $2000 per year for 3 meals a day. So, now we're at about $15,000 per year, and we haven't touched fees or anything like that. Commuting also means more wear on a car, which costs money to keep going. It's getting closer and closer to costing the same to attend a CC or a small state college. We also haven't touched the opportunity cost of spending that much time commuting. That amounts to hours that could have been studying or sleeping, that were instead being spent on the road. For a good but not great student, that time could be the difference between a C getting a degree and someone's GPA not being high enough to walk the stage. I'm sure you mean well, but you're not looking at all the facts and "hidden" costs. For some people, the options are not great for college. That's the cold hard truth, much as it pains us all to admit. Sometimes, instead of having people preach at them about how college is "actually" quite affordable, kids need someone to sit them down and look at all the options. Like I said in my original comment, people aren't likely to jump on getting a college degree here. The cost-benefit ratio rarely balances, so, for us, people largely look at other options, like the vocational school or an apprenticeship. That may sit wrong with you because it's different to where you're from, but that doesn't make it wrong.

That feels... aggressively idealistic as a positive description and abhorrently dismissive as a negative one.

Realistically, how many colleges do you think a student should apply to? With application fees and everything else, it's not possible to apply everywhere. So how much should a family budget for that? How do you recommend students find these smaller colleges? It's easy to find information on the larger schools, but a lot of people don't even know many of these schools exist. What are key terms they should use in a search?

No. We don't live in an area near a university. We're actually quite a way away from the main campus of the CC. Most of these people went to the most affordable four-year college they could; it's about $25,000 a year including tuition, r&b, books, etc. Their parents made too much for help but too little to afford it.

Honestly? No, I don't think college is always worth it. I think it's a complicated and personal choice, and nobody can ever know all the factors that went into someone else's decision.

And if that kid isn't accepted to a more selective school? Seriously, what about that B+ student who would have rocked a state college but can't get admitted to a selective school with better financial aid? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but it really feels like people on this board are very quick to handwave away people who say college isn't a financial option.

A lot of people can't afford college but make just enough to not qualify for assistance. I know a girl whose dad made $40 too much for her to qualify for the FAFSA. She couldn't get a dime of aide but also couldn't afford tuition. It's not always just "these people don't check;" sometimes it's "they can't get help."

Those are options if they suit the child, and they should definitely be discussed if the child wants to pursue a college degree. But that may not work for someone who doesn't learn well online or who lives in a rural area with poor internet or where those employers don't exist. I'm not saying that the suggestions you have aren't good, but I am saying that they aren't universally applicable. Also, some kids just aren't suited to college. They may not be able to handle the academics, or they may just want to do something that doesn't require a degree.

Eh, the graduates I know are mostly the teachers making $30,000 a year and owing $80,000 at the end of it.

It's called UVA Wise. People just call it "Wise." It's not great. The quality is not at all comparable. I don't know any graduate who would ever say they graduated from UVA.

It seems like you have a lot of unresolved issues that are at the root of your issues with people saying college isn't the best choice for everyone. We aren't your parents. Their reasons for not talking to their daughters are not at all what any of us have said.

Not all colleges allow you to live off campus and some require a mealplan. My cousin was required to pay for the meal plan, and there was only one option. So again, every situation is different, and it might not be possible to just get somewhere cheap and eat at home.

Yes, people manage. And while it's fine for some, others regret it, and still more simply can't afford it. Just because some people manage to afford the cost of room and board doesn't mean everyone can afford it. And while, yes, some people can and will make sacrifices to pay for it, some can't. Sometimes people have already thinned their soup to water to make ends meet, and there's just nothing left to do.

Some degree holders may be better off, but it's not a guarantee and certainly doesn't apply to all degree holders. It's another example where the particulars of the child's situation (including exactly what degrees are being considered, where they want to live and what that means for their future cost of living) need to be considered.

Sometimes, even commuting to the nearest community college can be a stretch. Our local CC serves three counties, and some students are over two hours away from it.

I'm proud of your son, and he truly is blessed to have had your support. Obviously, for him, his circumstances allowed him to try and fail. Trying and failing, though, can ruin some kids financially for life. Everyone doesn't have the money to gamble with. Sometimes, for certain families, they have to go with something they know their child could succeed with. Honestly, we must have very different views of college, but my point, which I think you understood and chose to ignore, is that a student who wants to be a hairdresser doesn't need a college degree and shouldn't be forced into one because the parents (or guidance counselor or whoever else) put more value on the idea that every kid needs a bachelor's degree than on making sure that particular kid got what was best for them.

I think people's opinions regarding college depends largely on where they live. For example, I live in a rural area, and we don't have a lot of white-collar jobs. Teachers make on average $30,000 a year, and they usually have $80,000+ in student loans. An LPN makes on average $40,000 a year, and most get grants to pay the full tuition and for supplies (some even get a monthly fuel subsidy). Even if they don't get assistance, the total cost is about $6,000, which is much more manageable. Here, people are more likely to see a bachelor's degree as a waste of money and time. However, if someone lives in an area where there are more jobs in say business or finance, then I imagine that a college degree would actually pay for itself and thus be more highly valued. *** I think another issue might be the child in question. My dad can look at something and mentally deconstruct and reconstruct it. He reads at a third-grade level, though, despite my grandparents paying for a tutor. A lot of people say he should have been an engineer or an architect, but the simple fact is that he couldn't have handled the book learning aspect. For him, taking carpentry at the local vocational school in high school was the best option. At the end of the day, we can't judge and say that it's wrong for certain people to not push a four-year degree. Every child and every family is different. While a bachelor's might be the best option for one, it can be the worst for another. And anyway, we need both engineers and carpenters, farmers and bankers, hairdressers and attorneys.

For us, one of the big things we do is watch the opening of Smackdown from September 13, 2001. It was the first mass gathering after the attacks, and I've always felt it helps capture what many Americans felt at the time without being too traumatic for the kids to see. It's certainly not the only thing we watch, but it's important.

In my experience, unless they absolutely cannot afford otherwise, people hire a professional. Even my aunt, who takes amazing photos, hired a professional photographer for her faux twins (stepdaughter and niece). But it's a cultural thing. The people in your area may not care, or you may not care about what anyone else thinks. It's really a personal decision, and it's one that comes down to your family's preferences and finances. As for settings, some really pretty ones are the creek and a train track. A lovely shot that I've seen a few times over the years is the student turned away from the camera and walking away. You might consider if there's anywhere related to your senior's hobbies that would work, even if the location isn't necessarily where he or she actually did that hobby. For example, I've seen a lot of Potterheads do pictures with a weeping willow as an homage to the series' Whomping Willow. ETA "Seasonal" shots are becoming more popular here. Instead of one set, people do a summer shoot, a fall shoot, a winter shoot, and a spring shoot. They're usually beautiful, and they make it easier to capture the interests of the child, especially for athletes.

Yes, we censor what they watch, and I hadn't thought about it, but I guess we do censor the reading too. For mental health reasons, we avoid R-rated movies, horror movies, etc., as well as crime shows like Law and Order: SVU and Criminal Minds. It's never really been an issue. We don't watch a lot of TV anyway, so it's never really been an issue. As for reading, our local library sucks, and we don't live near a bookstore. My dh and I have to order everything online (or drive four hours to decent bookstore). We don't live in an area with a lot of leisure readers, so they aren't getting peer recommendations. If they did, I think we would vet it and go from there.

The primary issue is internet. It's not very reliable, and streaming isn't an option. Our nearest library is about an hour away, and it's hostile to homeschooling. They wouldn't help us, even if we could get there regularly to use it. YouTube videos aren't something we can rely on, but I appreciate the suggestion.

Thank you so much! This is exactly what I was looking for. And thank you for the book recommendation. I'm definitely getting it.

No. Our closest library is about an hour away, poorly stocked, and hostile to homeschoolers. It sucks. I will admit to being jealous of people with access to good libraries.