Article in NYT re: Americans losing faith in value of college degree

[KungFuPanda]

On 9/8/2023 at 1:44 AM, Shoeless said:

I'm feeling really curmudgeony about this tonight. Come with me on a trip to "back in my day..."

My parents and stepparents all lived at home and attended local colleges. Same for my aunts and uncles. There is only one aunt that had the "full college experience" and went out of state, (on a full ride). Everyone lived at home until they got married or were established long enough in jobs that they could afford to move out. 

My older cousins had the same experience. One briefly lived on campus until lousy grades brought him home. 

My grandparents did not attend college, but all lived at home until they were married.  They were blue collar union carpenters, postal workers, school secretaries. My stepfather's parents attended college, and they were considered to be wealthy people.   

I would have happily attended a local school and lived at home, but "family dynamics" 🙄 demanded I attend school 500 miles away. 

Sometime in my generation, the expectation shifted to "full college experience" at a faraway school: dorms, dining halls, football stadiums, college life, Greek life, rah rah sis boom bah. That stuff was always there for wealthier people, but it became expected of "good" middle class families, too. Then college costs exploded: inflation plus easier access to loans plus all the marketing and rhetoric about college is a must and you don't want your children to be left behind in the new millenium, do you? 

And because the middle class is aspirational, an average college dorm experience is not good enough anymore. Doesn't your child deserve the very best? Don't they deserve gourmet coffee in the student lounge? Award winning landscaping? Olympic pools and racquetball? Hot stone massage, nutrition counseling, reiki energy treatments? (Those are services offered at a state flagship state school!) Is this the full college experience people now require?

This is nuts. No wonder the students at my alma mater think they place is a dump when other students get herbal tea and relaxing massages during finals week. 

We have lost the plot.

There are a LOT of people who don’t live in commuting distance to any college at all. For some, only their CC’s are commutable and not all CC’s are created equally. DH and I went through GI bills/Army college fund. The perk  being you could qualify for in-state tuition anywhere you wanted when you got out. However, the military works for a very small subset of people. It wasn’t an option for my kids.

I’m not sure carrying student debt is that terrible if the overall quality of someone’s life is better than it would be without the debt. I know people still paying off their degrees in their 40’s, but it’s a regular bill for them like a mortgage or car payment. They’re still coming out ahead with that degree and enjoying a lifestyle they wouldn’t without it. 

20 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I will also add that the assault on higher education by politicians is particularly appalling.  Stripping tenure and reducing benefits and packages are horrible actions.

This irks me. I feel strongly that money for education should be heavily focused on the people IN the classroom. If anyone has to reduce staff or go part time it should be the upper level administrators. 

[Heartstrings]

Colleges might be known for parties, but plenty of young people manage to party without going to a college campus.   Partying is about the individual.  

[Ginevra]

8 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I 100% don't think it was necessary for him to get that degree, i think the certificates that he had, paired with years of experience, should have been enough to let him his way up, which was his plan when he got the certificates.  Unfortunately employers didn't seem to agree with that.  

I want to talk about this a bit. Speaking as a person who had plenty of head knowledge but scanty degree “proof” (I have an AA), it does feel unfair that a stone cold dummy with a bachelor’s has doors open to them that are closed to an erudite person who has read thousands of books but only has an associate’s and/or certificates. However, I can also completely appreciate this from the employer’s POV.
 

On a résumé, nobody can tell how much leaning potential and wide knowledge you have; it’s difficult to convey even in an interview, if you can get *that* far. If I had two resumes I was evaluating, and the candidates look on paper similar, yet one has a bachelor’s and one does not, chances are very high I am going to call back the degreed person (even if the job does not strictly require one). A degree demonstrates that this candidate is at least minimally capable of adhering to deadlines, extracting information and applying it, even just *showing up physically* repeatedly for at least four years. So even if it is true that the other candidate may have been outstanding and just did not have the opportunity to get a degree, the employer doesn’t want to waste time/take a gamble on a non-degreed person if they don’t *have* to. 
 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

Colleges might be known for parties, but plenty of young people manage to party without going to a college campus.   Partying is about the individual.  

Of course. So much is about the individual, which is why there’s no one right answer. Especially for 18yos.

[Scarlett]

8 hours ago, Frances said:

Absolutely. I think a very small minority in this country is actually well educated. And I don’t include myself in that group, despite my degrees from excellent colleges.

Well that is confusing because your previous post seems like you are well educated.  And knowing you from this board you seem well educated.  

[Scarlett]

58 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Of course. So much is about the individual, which is why there’s no one right answer. Especially for 18yos.

Correct.  I do think it makes it easier for a party prone 18 year to slip into bad habits when he/she is not responsible for supporting themselves.  

[SKL]

I also think it's a fair question why it costs so much to live on campus vs. commute.

I mean, living on campus, even in a shared tiny room with the bathroom down the hall, costs multiple times as much as living in a regular house.  I feel like that's partly about excluding the working class from "the experience," and partly about somebody getting rich without adding value.

[Heartstrings]

26 minutes ago, SKL said:

I also think it's a fair question why it costs so much to live on campus vs. commute.

I mean, living on campus, even in a shared tiny room with the bathroom down the hall, costs multiple times as much as living in a regular house.  I feel like that's partly about excluding the working class from "the experience," and partly about somebody getting rich without adding value.

I haven't looked at many different dorms, but the school I went to a dorm was comparable in cost to an apartment.  You did have shared living space but had your own room and only 2 rooms shared a bathroom.  Of course that cost also included utilities, internet, and basic cable.  I thought the meals plans were a bit high, but not terrible for essentially eating out every meal.  

 

I just looked up the local 4 year that my son goes to.  Dorms range from $550 to $775 a month, taking the per semester fee and dividing by 5 months.  In a town where apartments are around $1200-$1500, with a few $800 income dependents ones thrown in. So a dorm is about the cost of splitting an apartment with a roommate, except rent isn't on you if your roommate flakes.  That seems like a reasonable rate.  

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Ginevra said:

I want to talk about this a bit. Speaking as a person who had plenty of head knowledge but scanty degree “proof” (I have an AA), it does feel unfair that a stone cold dummy with a bachelor’s has doors open to them that are closed to an erudite person who has read thousands of books but only has an associate’s and/or certificates. However, I can also completely appreciate this from the employer’s POV.
 

On a résumé, nobody can tell how much leaning potential and wide knowledge you have; it’s difficult to convey even in an interview, if you can get *that* far. If I had two resumes I was evaluating, and the candidates look on paper similar, yet one has a bachelor’s and one does not, chances are very high I am going to call back the degreed person (even if the job does not strictly require one). A degree demonstrates that this candidate is at least minimally capable of adhering to deadlines, extracting information and applying it, even just *showing up physically* repeatedly for at least four years. So even if it is true that the other candidate may have been outstanding and just did not have the opportunity to get a degree, the employer doesn’t want to waste time/take a gamble on a non-degreed person if they don’t *have* to. 
 

I agree.  I think this perspective is often missing when we talk about kids skipping out the college degree and just starting to work.  Whether its right or not, those kids are going to be competing with people that do have degrees for jobs, and the non degree holder is going to lose out, even for jobs that don't really need a degree.  People talk about just needing to get experience, or certificates, or needing to hustle but that really misses some of the reality.   The only reason an employer chooses someone with no degree over the person with the degree is when they intend to pay lower than they assume the person with the degree will accept. 

[TexasProud]

55 minutes ago, SKL said:

I also think it's a fair question why it costs so much to live on campus vs. commute.

I mean, living on campus, even in a shared tiny room with the bathroom down the hall, costs multiple times as much as living in a regular house.  I feel like that's partly about excluding the working class from "the experience," and partly about somebody getting rich without adding value.

It is currently costing my daughter 650 a month, well actually less.  That is the price before all of her scholarships.  My son living in Austin cannot find a decent apartment for less than 1,000 a month.  I think he is currently paying 1200 or something a month.  And as a previous poster mentioned, I don't have to pay for the summer, don't have to pay for a roommate if they flake, etc. So it is actually a pretty good deal.  

Even in my small town, it now costs 1200 or more to rent even a 2 bedroom house.  And we live in a low cost area.  That would be 600 for 2 people and again you are on the hook with everything if a roommate flakes.  

Edited September 9, 2023 by TexasProud

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I agree.  I think this perspective is often missing when we talk about kids skipping out the college degree and just starting to work.  Whether its right or not, those kids are going to be competing with people that do have degrees for jobs, and the non degree holder is going to lose out, even for jobs that don't really need a degree.  People talk about just needing to get experience, or certificates, or needing to hustle but that really misses some of the reality.   The only reason an employer chooses someone with no degree over the person with the degree is when they intend to pay lower than they assume the person with the degree will accept. 

Right. And many colleges offer internships as part of the degree which gives the student some relevant work experience plus the degree, plus references if hey do a good job at the internship. That it going to set them apart from their peers who pursued certifications instead of degree.

And it is crazy frustrating because so many jobs do not really need a degree to do them well. I blame this on the quality of high school education. A degree had become a default for many employers to prove basic literacy and numeracy. If we fixed K-12 education, this would not happen. But I do get what the employer is trying to avoid, the kids who got a high school diploma, yet have a low reading comprehension level and numeracy in the toilet. The number of times I have been in a business and super basic skills were not in evidence with the employee I was dealing with is just astounding.

I will say I know of one instance where two young men could have amazing jobs right out of high school. Their dad is a harbormaster, and the boys were raised sailing. Dad began taking them go work as soon as they were old enough for the DNR to allow them assist seasonally. They are 15 and 17, and I can tell you those boys are so good now, they could run that harbor. On top of that, they not only attended sailing school and were certified, they teach it now at their tender ages. They are that good. They can go directly into the DNR full time at graduation. But they also want to have a breadth of experience and education so they can bet promotions faster, and also not have to wait for a current harbor master to retire before moving up. They have told us (they often assist us launching or trailering our sailboat) they are still going to college for a wildlife and fisheries degree. So they could have decent wage, and state benefits right away, but they are looking at the link by game of their careers. My guess is that they have worked with enough DNR officers who are not their dad that they will have excellent recommendations, hopefully good scholarships. It impressed me that they are thinking through their careers and plotting their trajectory now in a very systematic way. I suspect their dad is a big influence in that. I have a niece doing the same. She worked seasonal for the DNR for four years, and was offered full time, but she looked at her career trajectory and saw some positions she would love to have that won't be available without a biology adjacent degree. So she headed to one of our U.P. universities which have some really strong, specialty majors in wildlife, outdoor recreation management, museum studies, fisheries management, etc. She will likely have a very nice career. Michiganders are pretty united in our love of conservation of our Great Outdoors, so we tend to fund our DNR quite well.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I also think it's a fair question why it costs so much to live on campus vs. commute.

I mean, living on campus, even in a shared tiny room with the bathroom down the hall, costs multiple times as much as living in a regular house.  I feel like that's partly about excluding the working class from "the experience," and partly about somebody getting rich without adding value.

Due to the high COL here, at many local colleges it can actually be cheaper to live on campus unless you are sharing an off-campus place with a significant number of people. One also has to consider the time savings of not shopping and prepping food. That was a huge adjustment when I went to grad school. Speaking of which, we lived in married campus housing when my husband was in grad school and it was an amazing bargain compared to anything we would have found off campus. As we were RAs, we knew the residence life staff well and they were only charging to cover costs.

I highly doubt it has anything to do with excluding the working class from the college experience, as being a first generation college student is a major hook and they are highly sought at after at many schools and provided special programs to help ensure success. 
 

Who do you think wants to exclude them from the college experience and why? And who’s getting rich? The food service providers? I’m confused.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Well that is confusing because your previous post seems like you are well educated.  And knowing you from this board you seem well educated.  

I don’t want to derail the thread, but just as a starting point, I only speak one language fluently.

[Dmmetler]

45 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I haven't looked at many different dorms, but the school I went to a dorm was comparable in cost to an apartment.  You did have shared living space but had your own room and only 2 rooms shared a bathroom.  Of course that cost also included utilities, internet, and basic cable.  I thought the meals plans were a bit high, but not terrible for essentially eating out every meal.  

 

I just looked up the local 4 year that my son goes to.  Dorms range from $550 to $775 a month, taking the per semester fee and dividing by 5 months.  In a town where apartments are around $1200-$1500, with a few $800 income dependents ones thrown in. So a dorm is about the cost of splitting an apartment with a roommate, except rent isn't on you if your roommate flakes.  That seems like a reasonable rate.  

My kid's college room and board actually seem like a decent deal. You might be able to find a shared house off campus for a similar rate, but you'd be a LONG way off campus. The school just plain isn't in a cheap place to live. Add that there also aren't a lot of shopping options unless you can drive to get to them (lots of cute little boutiques and restaurants, not a lot of practical stores) or are doing delivery, and I think it really costs less to be on campus. 

 

 

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

My kid's college room and board actually seem like a decent deal. You might be able to find a shared house off campus for a similar rate, but you'd be a LONG way off campus. The school just plain isn't in a cheap place to live. Add that there also aren't a lot of shopping options unless you can drive to get to them (lots of cute little boutiques and restaurants, not a lot of practical stores) or are doing delivery, and I think it really costs less to be on campus. 

 

 

College towns are ridiculously expensive. Landlords know what the college is charging per room, and frankly, if I got that much money for a single room with two people in it, I would be getting rich! So our sons were never able to find anything to rent where they save money from the room charge. The only savings was that cottages and apartments came with full kitchens, full size fridges, etc. So they were still sharing a lot of space with numerous people in order to afford the rent and utilities, but could save a lot of money on food by cooking for themselves and packing lunches to campus. That was the only savings. However, for middle son, getting into an apartment and sharing with a select set of close friends was important for other reasons. His college's dorms were just disgusting living. Maintenance did nothing, absolutely nothing. Many of the students were NOT respectful. Theft was high, the college did not care. Maintenance workers would come onto the floor, raid the student fridges for what they wanted, and leave, fixing nothing. Students were treated like absolute crap by dorm staff. It was a nightmare experience, and moving off campus was something many students began planning for as fast as they were eligible or could come up with first, last, and security deposit. 

Our youngest had a wonderful dorm experience. He would have liked to move off his junior and senior year just for a little more space, and ability to cook. He is a real foodie. But the rents were so high at anything a reasonable distance on winter roads from the campus that he chose to stay put.

Our eldest boy was a commuter, living with my aunt. It was necessary due to his leg. He has a lot of pain, tremendous aching in the winter, and worse at night. He does a lot of pacing just because he is determined to keep pain meds to a minimum. He knew he would drive a roommate crazy, and there were no single rooms available. He did do well in terms of college experience. He got involved in clubs, was the president of the English society, sang in choir, stayed for study groups. He also did some volunteer work on campus, and tutored in the writing lab for pay. He made a good tribe of friends. Aunt refused to charge him any rent, and he bought his own food. It did save a ton of money.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I agree.  I think this perspective is often missing when we talk about kids skipping out the college degree and just starting to work.  Whether its right or not, those kids are going to be competing with people that do have degrees for jobs, and the non degree holder is going to lose out, even for jobs that don't really need a degree.  People talk about just needing to get experience, or certificates, or needing to hustle but that really misses some of the reality.   The only reason an employer chooses someone with no degree over the person with the degree is when they intend to pay lower than they assume the person with the degree will accept. 

Just a little story…. 
Dh started his career with a degree that had nothing to do with his job. He started at under $10/hr in his position. 20ish years later, he was an executive. Okay.

A coworker’s sons wanted to come to work for the organization, pushing for big salaries. No experience. But they “deserved” it… because they had fancy (compared to dh’s) degrees. But still not in the field.

Nothing makes sense.

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I also think it's a fair question why it costs so much to live on campus vs. commute.

I mean, living on campus, even in a shared tiny room with the bathroom down the hall, costs multiple times as much as living in a regular house.  I feel like that's partly about excluding the working class from "the experience," and partly about somebody getting rich without adding value.

At DS's university, the rent anywhere close to campus is often more than dorms, plus you have to pay for 12 months instead of 9. If you go far enough away from campus for the rents to go down, then you need a car, so you have to add in those expenses (and parking on or near campus is ridiculously expensive).

You can save a little money by cooking for yourself, but a lot of college kids are really busy and don't have the time or inclination to be cooking every meal from scratch. DS doesn't really cook beyond microwaving frozen food or occasionally making a pot of pasta, so it was cheaper for us when he lived on campus because he had an all-you-can-eat meal plan that worked out well for a 6'7" 220 lb athlete. He would have loved to stay in a dorm all four years, but they are desperately short of dorm space and he was only able to be there one year.

I also disagree with the idea that on campus living doesn't add any value. IMO it adds a great deal of value to the college experience, and in many cases doesn't cost any more than renting off campus.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Corraleno

[Idalou]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I also think it's a fair question why it costs so much to live on campus vs. commute.

I mean, living on campus, even in a shared tiny room with the bathroom down the hall, costs multiple times as much as living in a regular house.  I feel like that's partly about excluding the working class from "the experience," and partly about somebody getting rich without adding value.

No, I do not think the cost of a dorm room that is tiny and shared with a hall restroom is multiple times as much a living in a house. Or apartment. Can you show examples of towns and universities where this could be so? I looked at 4 universities in my area, 3 urban and one rural, and the off campus cheapest studio are about $100 more than a basic dorm. They are very large cities, so I think its possible cheaper places could be found if I took more time to investigate the whole city, but my google term was ' near the school'. I suppose that also depends if the school is in a desirable area or perched on the edge of an undesirable town. We all know how rentals have skyrocketed during the pandemic. I mean, sure, if you're talking about living in a parental home for free or a couple hundred in rent from a relative.

 I think in many areas the cost is close to each or one may be slightly better, but it can be difficult to find 9 month rentals in a city. If you live outside of town or farther away from school there may be less expensive, but then you'd need them town or school to provide a bus or shuttle or own a car or have a dependable friend with one whose schedule is similar.

I do think meal plans can be more expensive than a kid making or buying prepared meals on their own but that depends on the eating habits and appetite of the particular student. 

I do think a poorer student can be left out of the campus living experience and may be more prone to being a commuter student who lives at home, but in my opinion, it's not the more moneyed kids who are living in dorms while the working class rent off campus.  They're often the ones whose parents buy a home to rent, or rent apartments for their child. Those are the kids who don't have to worry about having a car to get around.

At one slightly rural school we drive by occasionally, though, I've noticed the parking lot attached to the freshman dorms is totally filled. I think a majority of students at the state school are from  Long Island and NYC, and I picture these kids telling their parents they NEED a car to get around in what they consider the absolute boonies, lol. I think students are required to live in campus freshman and sophomore years unless they're locals. For this, I do think money is partly a big reason, although it's explained as a way of becoming involved in campus life and hopefully keeping an eye on underage students.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Idalou

[kokotg]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

I also think it's a fair question why it costs so much to live on campus vs. commute.

I mean, living on campus, even in a shared tiny room with the bathroom down the hall, costs multiple times as much as living in a regular house.  I feel like that's partly about excluding the working class from "the experience," and partly about somebody getting rich without adding value.

That hasn't been my experience with my kids' colleges. In fact, for my kid who's in school in Nashville, his school guaranteeing on campus housing all 4 years was a big deal to us, because apartments in Nashville are so expensive. My other kid lived in an on campus apartment senior year and did save money by having a full kitchen and not needing to pay for the meal plan...but it makes total sense that you'll pay more for someone else to prepare your food and do your dishes than you will for just grocery shopping. Obviously living at home with family is cheaper than living on campus (unless you're getting financial aid that covers the cost).

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I see some of that, for sure.  But I also see just a recognition of how much easier life is with that piece of paper.  How many doors it opens, how much earning potential it unlocks.  I know I had always planned on going to college, but my husband never planned on it.  He only went when he realized that at the ripe old age of 30 he had reached his max earning potential, and it was a pretty low potential.  Where we lived, with his skills, and certificates, he was maxed.  He had to go to college and get that paper to ever make more money.   

I 100% don't think it was necessary for him to get that degree, i think the certificates that he had, paired with years of experience, should have been enough to let him his way up, which was his plan when he got the certificates.  Unfortunately employers didn't seem to agree with that.  

There are smaller communities all over where people know each other well enough that experience should be enough. Even some industries in a large area are specific enough that people are hired from a very small pool of candidates already.

4 hours ago, Ginevra said:

I want to talk about this a bit. Speaking as a person who had plenty of head knowledge but scanty degree “proof” (I have an AA), it does feel unfair that a stone cold dummy with a bachelor’s has doors open to them that are closed to an erudite person who has read thousands of books but only has an associate’s and/or certificates. However, I can also completely appreciate this from the employer’s POV.
 

On a résumé, nobody can tell how much leaning potential and wide knowledge you have; it’s difficult to convey even in an interview, if you can get *that* far. If I had two resumes I was evaluating, and the candidates look on paper similar, yet one has a bachelor’s and one does not, chances are very high I am going to call back the degreed person (even if the job does not strictly require one). A degree demonstrates that this candidate is at least minimally capable of adhering to deadlines, extracting information and applying it, even just *showing up physically* repeatedly for at least four years. So even if it is true that the other candidate may have been outstanding and just did not have the opportunity to get a degree, the employer doesn’t want to waste time/take a gamble on a non-degreed person if they don’t *have* to. 
 

I think employers can voluntarily change how they screen candidates or what information they want to see on a resume. When I participated in hiring people, it didn’t take long talking to someone to figure out if the person was qualified but not competent if the right non-generic questions were asked. I think it would be work to change things, but I think it’s possible in many areas.

In the case of the person you are replying to, her husband was presumably already known to an employer or series of employers who simply didn’t have the desire to change rules they made or rules their company made. I agree that hiring out of the blue presents challenges, but using talent you already have is not asking all that much. It’s not risk free to stop up someone’s career over a degree either. You could pass over a skilled employee and end up hiring a total idiot.

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

And it is crazy frustrating because so many jobs do not really need a degree to do them well. I blame this on the quality of high school education. A degree had become a default for many employers to prove basic literacy and numeracy. If we fixed K-12 education, this would not happen. But I do get what the employer is trying to avoid, the kids who got a high school diploma, yet have a low reading comprehension level and numeracy in the toilet. The number of times I have been in a business and super basic skills were not in evidence with the employee I was dealing with is just astounding.

My DH has run into newly minted doctors that he could say the same about. People who’ve spent years proving how smart they are. Not residents, mind you. Attendings.

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I don’t want to derail the thread, but just as a starting point, I only speak one language fluently.

Well-rounded education and high degree of education are related but not equivalent concepts. I couldn’t care less if the people doing genetic research for my son’s rare genetic disorder can speak a second language, but if they are working on research in this field, they are by definition well-educated. Possibly pigeonholed. And it’s being pigeonholed that makes them able to save lives by determining itty bitty differences between things that outwardly look the same but have totally different treatment implications and then translating that into life-saving protocols and explaining it to patients like it’s an everyday concept. It’s being uneven in their knowledge that gives them the time and drive to say, “we blew the lid off of this field, and it’s still not good enough yet.” Some of these people are gifted with a low biological need to sleep and can actually be well-rounded too, but that’s a pretty small fraction of people.

And we need well-rounded people too! 

[Heartstrings]

9 minutes ago, kbutton said:

think employers can voluntarily change how they screen candidates or what information they want to see on a resume.

But if that changes or not isn't something we can know or control. There’s another thread going about how retail managers seem to be terrible at scheduling even though it costs them good employees, it seems good business practices are rare these days. We can’t count on those business practices changing. When advising our young people we have to guide them through the world as it is, not as we hope it will change to be.  Some employers here and there might decide to not value degrees as highly, but the trend has been to require more not less.  They seem to be asking for degrees plus certifications plus years of experience for what to use to be considered entry level positions.    

Edited September 9, 2023 by Heartstrings

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

I think people's opinions regarding college depends largely on where they live.

For example, I live in a rural area, and we don't have a lot of white-collar jobs. Teachers make on average $30,000 a year, and they usually have $80,000+ in student loans. An LPN makes on average $40,000 a year, and most get grants to pay the full tuition and for supplies (some even get a monthly fuel subsidy). Even if they don't get assistance, the total cost is about $6,000, which is much more manageable. Here, people are more likely to see a bachelor's degree as a waste of money and time.

However, if someone lives in an area where there are more jobs in say business or finance, then I imagine that a college degree would actually pay for itself and thus be more highly valued. 

***

I think another issue might be the child in question.

My dad can look at something and mentally deconstruct and reconstruct it. He reads at a third-grade level, though, despite my grandparents paying for a tutor. A lot of people say he should have been an engineer or an architect, but the simple fact is that he couldn't have handled the book learning aspect. For him, taking carpentry at the local vocational school in high school was the best option. 

At the end of the day, we can't judge and say that it's wrong for certain people to not push a four-year degree. Every child and every family is different. While a bachelor's might be the best option for one, it can be the worst for another. And anyway, we need both engineers and carpenters, farmers and bankers, hairdressers and attorneys. 

 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

But if that changes or not isn't something we can know or control. There’s another thread going about how retail managers seem to be terrible at scheduling even though it costs them good employees, it seems good business practices are rare these days. We can’t count on those business practices changing. When advising our young people we have to guide them through the world as it is, not as we hope it will change to be.  Some employers here and there might decide to not value degrees as highly, but the trend has been to require more not less.  They seem to be asking for degrees plus certifications plus years of experience for what to use to be considered entry level positions.    

For guidance, I agree.

I was answering in the spirit of it doesn’t have to be this way. 

[Ginevra]

1 hour ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

At the end of the day, we can't judge and say that it's wrong for certain people to not push a four-year degree. Every child and every family is different. While a bachelor's might be the best option for one, it can be the worst for another. And anyway, we need both engineers and carpenters, farmers and bankers, hairdressers and attorneys. 

Yes…but. There is something to be said for rising to the occasion. I think what is happening often - and, anecdotally, it seems to happen more with males than females - is that parents, counselors and others who are in a position to guide young people into their futures *far too often* are subtly or blatantly discouraging college. They pigeon-hole a kid (a boy, most usually) as “not academically inclined” and then start spinning the wheel of non-college options.  Maybe Tyler can enlist in the Army. Maybe he can apprentice with Uncle Robert, the electrician. Maybe he can get a computer repair certificate and fix computers and smashed phone screens out of the garage. The young man thinks he can’t succeed at college before it is even attempted because the people who were supposed to offer guidance are biased against college if the kid does not *already show* tremendous academic promise. 
 

My own son struggled a lot academically. It was definitely a concern of mine that he could actually finish a degree. I didn’t say that, though. I just continually reiterated that I knew he could succeed and there was always help available if he needed it. He graduated in 2022, in “Cs Get Degrees” style. I was immensely proud of him and I have continued to be amazed at how he can rise to the occasion. Just recently, he passed a certification for a particular software at his job and he gets an automatic raise of $3k.
 

I am so glad we didn’t go the route of patting him on the head and reassuring him that not everyone has to go to college. Even though not everyone *does* have to go to college. I believe that; I just think there is sometimes too much haste to write off college if a kid is not an academic genius. There are kids who can absolutely make it happen but they need to know people have their backs and support their effort. 
 

Also, just as an aside: you can be a hairdresser with a college degree. You can be a sanitation worker with a college degree. You can be a property manager with a college degree. I resist the idea that just because you don’t *have* to have a college degree to be a hairdresser, only non-college-bound people should be hairdressers. 

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

21 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Yes…but. There is something to be said for rising to the occasion. I think what is happening often - and, anecdotally, it seems to happen more with males than females - is that parents, counselors and others who are in a position to guide young people into their futures *far too often* are subtly or blatantly discouraging college. They pigeon-hole a kid (a boy, most usually) as “not academically inclined” and then start spinning the wheel of non-college options.  Maybe Tyler can enlist in the Army. Maybe he can apprentice with Uncle Robert, the electrician. Maybe he can get a computer repair certificate and fix computers and smashed phone screens out of the garage. The young man thinks he can’t succeed at college before it is even attempted because the people who were supposed to offer guidance are biased against college if the kid does not *already show* tremendous academic promise. 
 

My own son struggled a lot academically. It was definitely a concern of mine that he could actually finish a degree. I didn’t say that, though. I just continually reiterated that I knew he could succeed and there was always help available if he needed it. He graduated in 2022, in “Cs Get Degrees” style. I was immensely proud of him and I have continued to be amazed at how he can rise to the occasion. Just recently, he passed a certification for a particular software at his job and he gets an automatic raise of $3k.
 

I am so glad we didn’t go the route of patting him on the head and reassuring him that not everyone has to go to college. Even though not everyone *does* have to go to college. I believe that; I just think there is sometimes too much haste to write off college if a kid is not an academic genius. There are kids who can absolutely make it happen but they need to know people have their backs and support their effort. 
 

Also, just as an aside: you can be a hairdresser with a college degree. You can be a sanitation worker with a college degree. You can be a property manager with a college degree. I resist the idea that just because you don’t *have* to have a college degree to be a hairdresser, only non-college-bound people should be hairdressers. 

I'm proud of your son, and he truly is blessed to have had your support. Obviously, for him, his circumstances allowed him to try and fail. Trying and failing, though, can ruin some kids financially for life. Everyone doesn't have the money to gamble with. Sometimes, for certain families, they have to go with something they know their child could succeed with. 

 

Honestly, we must have very different views of college, but my point, which I think you understood and chose to ignore, is that a student who wants to be a hairdresser doesn't need a college degree and shouldn't be forced into one because the parents (or guidance counselor or whoever else) put more value on the idea that every kid needs a bachelor's degree than on making sure that particular kid got what was best for them. 

[Ting Tang]

10 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

There are a LOT of people who don’t live in commuting distance to any college at all. For some, only their CC’s are commutable and not all CC’s are created equally. DH and I went through GI bills/Army college fund. The perk  being you could qualify for in-state tuition anywhere you wanted when you got out. However, the military works for a very small subset of people. It wasn’t an option for my kids.

I’m not sure carrying student debt is that terrible if the overall quality of someone’s life is better than it would be without the debt. I know people still paying off their degrees in their 40’s, but it’s a regular bill for them like a mortgage or car payment. They’re still coming out ahead with that degree and enjoying a lifestyle they wouldn’t without it. 

This irks me. I feel strongly that money for education should be heavily focused on the people IN the classroom. If anyone has to reduce staff or go part time it should be the upper level administrators. 

I worry about commuting for our children.  A commute would be at least an hour/minimum to a 4 year school---that is down a long highway, not just sitting in traffic.  For me, my student loan debt was crippling. I worked in social services, and at least a third of my take home pay went to my student loans.  I remember my first job out of graduate school paid $11- something.  It was my choice, though, and I was stupid then---I really was!  I wanted to go to law school but went to graduate school after having my confidence shaken.  Also, I really didn't have the expertise to do anything else at the time that would be a "career."  I have my real estate license and dabbled in that, but I am not a good enough salesperson. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Ting Tang

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

10 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

There are a LOT of people who don’t live in commuting distance to any college at all. For some, only their CC’s are commutable and not all CC’s are created equally. DH and I went through GI bills/Army college fund. The perk  being you could qualify for in-state tuition anywhere you wanted when you got out. However, the military works for a very small subset of people. It wasn’t an option for my kids.

I’m not sure carrying student debt is that terrible if the overall quality of someone’s life is better than it would be without the debt. I know people still paying off their degrees in their 40’s, but it’s a regular bill for them like a mortgage or car payment. They’re still coming out ahead with that degree and enjoying a lifestyle they wouldn’t without it. 

This irks me. I feel strongly that money for education should be heavily focused on the people IN the classroom. If anyone has to reduce staff or go part time it should be the upper level administrators. 

Sometimes, even commuting to the nearest community college can be a stretch. Our local CC serves three counties, and some students are over two hours away from it. 

[Ginevra]

32 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

I'm proud of your son, and he truly is blessed to have had your support. Obviously, for him, his circumstances allowed him to try and fail. Trying and failing, though, can ruin some kids financially for life. Everyone doesn't have the money to gamble with. Sometimes, for certain families, they have to go with something they know their child could succeed with. 

 

Honestly, we must have very different views of college, but my point, which I think you understood and chose to ignore, is that a student who wants to be a hairdresser doesn't need a college degree and shouldn't be forced into one because the parents (or guidance counselor or whoever else) put more value on the idea that every kid needs a bachelor's degree than on making sure that particular kid got what was best for them. 

I am for sure grateful that we could support him in this way. I don’t see it as a gamble, though, or, no more of a gamble than anything else we do with our kids. Even choosing the homeschooling life was a huge gamble. To be perfectly honest, I think I carried on with it several years beyond the point of diminishing returns and my time could likely have been better spent working FT. But hindsight is 20/20 and all that. 
 

If my kid wanted to be a hairdresser, that would be perfectly fine. It’s a respectable profession and I have nothing against it. I pay and tip my hairdresser well because anybody who can make this frizzy bush look good is worth their weight in gold as far as I’m concerned. I just think some parents are too afraid their kids will fail so they don’t set the bar high enough. 

[AmandaVT]

18 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Honestly I think partying is a way smaller part of most kids' "college experience" than people think. Of course some schools have reputations as big party schools, but even at those there is certainly a significant percentage of kids who are there to study not party. I think the media likes to focus on frat parties and hazing and kids getting wasted, but that has not been DS's experience at all — he's never been to a frat party and there's generally only even 1 large-ish party each year, which is a goodbye party for graduating seniors on his varsity team. Other than that there may be an occasional birthday or Halloween party, but most of the time kids are hanging out together, they're studying or eating or sitting in a dorm room chatting about life, or lying in the grass on the quad complaining about that last biochem lab or whatever. 

I went to a LAC that was known for partying, and although I did my fair share of it, I also got a truly amazing education, got into top grad schools, and was very well prepared for a PhD program despite those freshman parties. I lived on campus all four years and loved being able to instantly hook up with friends to get something to eat, listen to music, or stay up until 2 AM arguing about Kant and Kierkegaard. So many fond memories of those years that I never would have had if I'd been a commuter student at a big state U.

DD is commuting to the CC and she's happy with that, but part of me is a little sad that she's missing out on so many of the wonderful experiences that DS and I had. 

That's good to hear - the LAC I attended for my freshman year was only about partying. Almost every night, if you weren't at one of the frats, you were sitting alone in your dorm. I tried to find things to do, but there really wasn't much. I made one friend who didn't want to get blackout drunk and hook up with random people every night, but that was it. And that was all we had in common, so it wasn't a friendship that stuck. I transferred to a small state school in my home state and commuted, and had a much better experience. I played tennis, helped at the radio station, and got a job. My experience at the LAC (mid-90s) was pretty common based on my high school friends' experiences, too. 

[AmandaVT]

7 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I haven't looked at many different dorms, but the school I went to a dorm was comparable in cost to an apartment.  You did have shared living space but had your own room and only 2 rooms shared a bathroom.  Of course that cost also included utilities, internet, and basic cable.  I thought the meals plans were a bit high, but not terrible for essentially eating out every meal.  

 

I just looked up the local 4 year that my son goes to.  Dorms range from $550 to $775 a month, taking the per semester fee and dividing by 5 months.  In a town where apartments are around $1200-$1500, with a few $800 income dependents ones thrown in. So a dorm is about the cost of splitting an apartment with a roommate, except rent isn't on you if your roommate flakes.  That seems like a reasonable rate.  

I pulled VT State University and University of Vermont's room and board fees. They seem reasonable. There's no way you can get an apartment in Burlington for anywhere near that price. My friend living in a crappy 3rd floor 1 bedroom in rural central vermont pays $1200/month before utilities. 

 

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Also, just as an aside: you can be a hairdresser with a college degree. You can be a sanitation worker with a college degree. You can be a property manager with a college degree. I resist the idea that just because you don’t *have* to have a college degree to be a hairdresser, only non-college-bound people should be hairdressers. 

You can be a hairdresser with student loans.  I would not prefer that life though.

I do want my kids to be college educated, because I would rather keep options open; young people change their minds a lot.  It works for us, because both of my kids' current career goals require college.  And I can afford to send them to a local university without debt.  (FTR the tuition there is about $13K/year).  If one of them decides halfway through that she really was meant to be a hair dresser or whatever, then I don't think there will be huge regrets that they also went to college.  But a lot of Americans would not be able to pay for college as a nice-to-have.  And most of their kids wouldn't qualify for a "full ride" anywhere.

I am another who lives in a state with pretty good alternatives offered in high school.  Our school system has a variety of career tech options.  I don't think all of the students can assume they will have a well-paying job the day they graduate, but they would at least have a start on their practical training and be on the path to a good job.  The military is another respectable option IMO. 

Our state will also pay for college credits for dual enrolled kids, assuming they meet the program requirements.  (I think the requirement is a B average?)  My kids' friend will graduate high school with a fully-paid-for AA.  But that too isn't realistic for most kids.

[Ausmumof3]

I think the other thing that sometimes gets overlooked here is opportunity cost. While a kid is at college they are not doing or learning something else. 
 

In DHs old role they turned down applicants for an apprenticeship position who had science degrees but couldn’t get work. They took on an adult apprentice with a trade in a previous field. They knew he had transferable skills and the ability to work well with his hands, and that he was able to cope with manual labour whereas science degree dude has not demonstrated that.

If kid is going to be the best in their course or higher ranked because they’re well suited to it then pushing for them to go that direction makes sense but there’s no guarantees that a kid that’s pushed to get through a degree and only just makes it is going to be better off than they would doing something they’re better suited to.

 

[Shoeless]

Even if college room and board is cheaper or equal to an apartment rent, how many people can comfortably afford to pay mortgage and a rent payment for each kid? 

So then you end up with people taking out loans to pay for a place to live for 4 years, and paying off that dorm rent for the next 20-25 years. A new grad is starting out life with basically a mortgage payment, but without access to that place to live after graduation. 

[Ginevra]

9 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think the other thing that sometimes gets overlooked here is opportunity cost. While a kid is at college they are not doing or learning something else. 

That’s true but the flip side of that is that careers without degrees often reach ceiling fast, so at, say, 26 yo, the non degree worker may appear to be making out better but at 46, the degree holder may have increased far beyond the non degree holder. 

[Ginevra]

7 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

Even if college room and board is cheaper or equal to an apartment rent, how many people can comfortably afford to pay mortgage and a rent payment for each kid? 

So then you end up with people taking out loans to pay for a place to live for 4 years, and paying off that dorm rent for the next 20-25 years. A new grad is starting out life with basically a mortgage payment, but without access to that place to live after graduation. 

People do it, I assure you. I do not know what the percentage is but clearly plenty of people do in fact manage to do so. 

[Ausmumof3]

13 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

That’s true but the flip side of that is that careers without degrees often reach ceiling fast, so at, say, 26 yo, the non degree worker may appear to be making out better but at 46, the degree holder may have increased far beyond the non degree holder. 

Sure. But if the kid is really better suited to a trade they’re potentially not going to progress well even with a degree. 

My feeling to this is society needs people with all the different skill sets and we just need to even up our values a bit. 

It is a lot easier in Australia to make good money in trades than in some countries though, because of the nature of our economy, so that probably colours my perspective somewhat.

[El...]

This article is so interesting. Does anyone else think that title was pinned on by an editor? It doesn't fit the whole piece. 

I'm in the middle of trying to learn everything to be my kid's best counselor...reading books, trying to locate AP tests, listening to podcasts... there's so much one could fail to consider, and the tone of the Facebook groups about paying for college is frantic. 

I read The Price You Pay for College by Liebner recently. We're Dave Ramsey nerds (though we don't endorse everything he says) and have saved for the kids. But have we saved enough? If DD gets into some fancy school, what then? We've saved for a state school scenario, not Harvard, and are opposed to debt for college. 

That book, Leibner's, has riled me up. The marketing around the college admissions process looks grotesque. The snobbery of the entitled, the fear of climbers, and the rage of those who feel cut out of the race altogether and are eating sour grapes - what a mess. 

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

8 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

That’s true but the flip side of that is that careers without degrees often reach ceiling fast, so at, say, 26 yo, the non degree worker may appear to be making out better but at 46, the degree holder may have increased far beyond the non degree holder. 

Some degree holders may be better off, but it's not a guarantee and certainly doesn't apply to all degree holders. It's another example where the particulars of the child's situation (including exactly what degrees are being considered, where they want to live and what that means for their future cost of living) need to be considered.

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

20 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

People do it, I assure you. I do not know what the percentage is but clearly plenty of people do in fact manage to do so. 

Yes, people manage. And while it's fine for some, others regret it, and still more simply can't afford it. Just because some people manage to afford the cost of room and board doesn't mean everyone can afford it. And while, yes, some people can and will make sacrifices to pay for it, some can't. Sometimes people have already thinned their soup to water to make ends meet, and there's just nothing left to do. 

[Heartstrings]

37 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

Even if college room and board is cheaper or equal to an apartment rent, how many people can comfortably afford to pay mortgage and a rent payment for each kid? 

So then you end up with people taking out loans to pay for a place to live for 4 years, and paying off that dorm rent for the next 20-25 years. A new grad is starting out life with basically a mortgage payment, but without access to that place to live after graduation. 

Most kids work.  A lot of kids are working and borrowing their own way.  They can work and pay for an apartment or work and pay for the dorm. 

[SKL]

Yeah living in a house isn't the same as renting a whole apartment per person.  My cost of having my kids live in the house I already own is very small.  A little water and electricity.  Households can also benefit from the college student(s) being there and helping in small ways.

As far as personal experience ... I moved out of the grad dorm with a roommate.  I ended up with about 10x as much space for half the cost.  We could have had additional roommates and still had more room per person than in the dorm.  Plus much easier access to kitchen facilities (which means big savings on food), and more control over who shares the space.  Off campus housing is also more convenient to reasonably priced amenities such as traditional grocery stores.

My campus was pretty unsafe; slightly off-campus housing (still walkable) was somewhat safer.

The cost of near but off-campus housing will be inflated by the cost of dorm housing.  The same quality of place would be way cheaper anywhere else.  I blame whoever is pricing the dorms for that.

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, El... said:

This article is so interesting. Does anyone else think that title was pinned on by an editor? It doesn't fit the whole piece. 

I'm in the middle of trying to learn everything to be my kid's best counselor...reading books, trying to locate AP tests, listening to podcasts... there's so much one could fail to consider, and the tone of the Facebook groups about paying for college is frantic. 

I read The Price You Pay for College by Liebner recently. We're Dave Ramsey nerds (though we don't endorse everything he says) and have saved for the kids. But have we saved enough? If DD gets into some fancy school, what then? We've saved for a state school scenario, not Harvard, and are opposed to debt for college. 

That book, Leibner's, has riled me up. The marketing around the college admissions process looks grotesque. The snobbery of the entitled, the fear of climbers, and the rage of those who feel cut out of the race altogether and are eating sour grapes - what a mess. 

I could not read the article.  It was behind a pay wall.  
 

When I was guiding my son on college decisions I got a rude awakening on how it all works.  I remember a few really ugly posts to me here on the topic.  Very elitist on the various options and very condescending to me when I had questions on the process and the benefit of certain paths over others.  
 

Xh and I agreed on the path that we could support.  As it turned out my son’s dad paid for his tuition and I provided room and board and cell phone and tolls.  When son decided to get married his sophomore year we kept paying the same…..so between xh, myself and my Dh and DIL our son was able to come out of college debt free.  None of the three parents involved would have supported debt for that.  There would have been other paths tor much less money that we would have recommended.  

[El...]

I found this article interesting, too. I heard the author on an economics podcast (which I can't find now).

 https://www.thirdway.org/report/is-college-worth-it-going-beyond-averages

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah living in a house isn't the same as renting a whole apartment per person.  My cost of having my kids live in the house I already own is very small.  A little water and electricity.  Households can also benefit from the college student(s) being there and helping in small ways.

As far as personal experience ... I moved out of the grad dorm with a roommate.  I ended up with about 10x as much space for half the cost.  We could have had additional roommates and still had more room per person than in the dorm.  Plus much easier access to kitchen facilities (which means big savings on food), and more control over who shares the space.  Off campus housing is also more convenient to reasonably priced amenities such as traditional grocery stores.

My campus was pretty unsafe; slightly off-campus housing (still walkable) was somewhat safer.

The cost of near but off-campus housing will be inflated by the cost of dorm housing.  The same quality of place would be way cheaper anywhere else.  I blame whoever is pricing the dorms for that.

Not all colleges allow you to live off campus and some require a mealplan. My cousin was required to pay for the meal plan, and there was only one option. So again, every situation is different, and it might not be possible to just get somewhere cheap and eat at home. 

[Scarlett]

Also all school debt is not the same.  I think some kids live as cheaply as possible and have loans for tuition and work for spending money or food.  Others are racking up debt for everything and not living all that frugally.  
 

 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

The cost of near but off-campus housing will be inflated by the cost of dorm housing.  The same quality of place would be way cheaper anywhere else.  I blame whoever is pricing the dorms for that.

While this may be true where you live or where you went to school, it is just not universally true at all. Have you ever lived in a high COL area? In the college towns where I live, including my own city, your statements about off campus housing, including the above, are not remotely accurate.

And I’d still like to hear your reasoning behind your view that the working class is being purposed targeted to not be able to have the on campus living experience. Who wants to exclude them from that and why? At every college I’m familiar with it’s exactly the opposite. First generation college students are being actively recruited and provided with special programs, academic and otherwise, for extra support. And often, certain scholarships are open only to them and others who qualify for financial aid.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

22 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Also all school debt is not the same.  I think some kids live as cheaply as possible and have loans for tuition and work for spending money or food.  Others are racking up debt for everything and not living all that frugally.  
 

 

We definitely saw that when my husband was in professional grad school. But then again, these students knew they would likely have a big chunk of their debt forgiven because they would be working at non-profit hospitals. It’s one of the reasons I struggle so much with supporting some of the particular loan forgiveness programs. We only borrowed what we absolutely needed, I went to work FT while homeschooling our son, and my husband worked summers (with commuting, school, and studying there was zero time for him to work during the school year). We were fortunate that as a hiring perk his employer paid off the majority of his loans over five years (in exchange for him staying at least another five years) and we immediately paid off the rest. He had classmates who ate lunch out almost every day, bought new cars, went on nice vacations, etc. etc. while borrowing $100-$200k.

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, Ginevra said:

People do it, I assure you. I do not know what the percentage is but clearly plenty of people do in fact manage to do so. 

How nice for the moneyed class. 

I am not sure how to reconcile your post that hairdressers should have bachelor's degrees if they want them with this post that, clearly, people find a way to pay for all this, and also with your original post about Americans questioning the value of all this. And also the student loan crisis that is unfolding right now in our country. 

Millennials and Gen Z are saying "This debt is unsustainable. We cannot do this". I worked with several veterinarians that had $200k in debt who said 'It isn't worth it. I never see my kids. I would have been happier as a tech but I am stuck".  But older generations are saying "One simply finds a way. It's worth it. Just try hard, economize, cook from scratch, get a roommate, etc".

How? How do young people do this without breaking from either financial stress or mental stress? What realistic path are we offering young people? How does a young person do all this without accruing massive debt? Academic hustle and grind culture in high school, with the hope of a scholarship and admission to a lottery school? 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Shoeless

[Heartstrings]

There are plenty of relatively inexpensive schools out there.  Kids do work and go to school, even if it if takes an extra year or so to get through it.  This idea that only $50k a year party schools with water parks and luxury dorms exist is just wrong.  You just have to look.  Plenty of students graduate with only modest, reasonable loans.  

Edited September 10, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Shoeless said:

Millennials and Gen Z are saying "This debt is unsustainable. We cannot do this". I worked with several veterinarians that had $200k in debt who said 'It isn't worth it. I never see my kids. I would have been happier as a tech but I am stuck".

 

 

Unfortunately, vet school is one of those careers that currently doesn’t pencil out financially if you have to borrow for tuition and room and board (from what I know, it would be virtually impossible to work during vet school except summers) because the salary is not high enough to realistically pay off the debt. In order for debt not to overwhelm your life, you need to be making at least as much as your loans right out of school. I don’t think any vet makes a $200k starting salary, at least I’ve never heard of one. And there are likely very few vet jobs that qualify for any type of loan forgiveness, unlike many other high debt careers.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Frances